Lt. Col (ret) Charles Merritt, 91, Victoria Cross recipient
Brian Watson
Edwin King <edwin...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:397017...@virgin.net...
> Allen Kirshner wrote:
> >
> > Taken from the Canadian Press:
> >
> > There is now just one surviving recipient of the Victoria Cross in
Canada.
>
> And only 24 all told...
When I read the first post in this thread, I thought it must be a steadily
decreasing "club".
With fewer "UK vs. The Others" conflicts, there must be less Victoria
Crosses awarded.
I assume I am right in thinking that the award has not been made for/during
"peace-keeping" actions?
--
Brian
Edwin King
>
> I assume I am right in thinking that the award has not been made for/during
> "peace-keeping" actions?
Not yet. There's no reason it shouldn't be if the need arises.
Edwin
theresa
The last were awarded in 1982 for action in The Falkland Wars:
Sgt. Ian McKay and Lt. Col. "H" Jones, both late of The Parachute Regiment.
Since WWII, only 11 have been awarded:
Four in Korea --
Major Kenneth Muir, The Argyll and Sunderland Highlanders
LT. Phillip Curtis, The Duke of Cornwall Light Infantry
Lt. Col. James Carne, The Glouchestershire Regiment
Pvt. William Speakman, The Black Watch while attached to The King's Own Scottish Borderers
One in Borneo (1965) --
Lance Cpl. Rambahadur Limbu, 2nd/10th Gurka Riles
Four in Vietnam:
WO2 Kevin Wheatley, Australian Army Training Team
Maj. Peter Badcoe, Australian Army Training Team
WO2 Ray Simpson, Australian Army Training Team
WO2 Keith Payne, Australian Army Training Team
In 1991, Mark Adkin published "The Last Eleven?" a history of the above awards and an appraisal of the
chances the VC would ever be awarded again.
As was said, it may be only a matter of time.
But, equal in honor and precedence is the George Cross, awarded to civilians and soldiers for heroism
against unbeatable odds not directly military. In the US, we honor those who perform such lifesaving deeds
as throwing themselves on grenades with Congressional Medals of Honor. The Brits would award a George Cross
in this case, not differentiating between the recipients military or civilian status. This is why the VC
has not been issued in 18 years, but awards the George Cross continue to honor the courage shown by subjects
of the Queen.
During Vietnam, an Army nurse threw herself on a grenade thrown into a hospital tent by the Viet Cong.
Given the official status of women in the military at that time, the highest award she could be issued was
the Bronze Star. During the TWA 800 hijacking, the young Navy diver who stood up to the terrorists and was
beaten and executed, fell through the same crack. Based on the rules set up for awarding bravery, he too
could only receive the Bronze Star. Although Robert Stethham recently had a destroyer named after him, in
the UK he would have received the George Cross, as would the Army nurse.
Edwin King
To keep it on-topic I'll note the living ones.
> The last were awarded in 1982 for action in The Falkland Wars:
>
> Sgt. Ian McKay and Lt. Col. "H" Jones, both late of The Parachute Regiment.
Both posthumous awards.
> Since WWII, only 11 have been awarded:
>
> Four in Korea --
> Major Kenneth Muir, The Argyll and Sunderland Highlanders
> LT. Phillip Curtis, The Duke of Cornwall Light Infantry
> Lt. Col. James Carne, The Glouchestershire Regiment
> Pvt. William Speakman, The Black Watch while attached to The King's Own Scottish Borderers
The only one of these still alive is Speakman (who I have down as
"Speakman-Pitt").
> One in Borneo (1965) --
> Lance Cpl. Rambahadur Limbu, 2nd/10th Gurka Riles
Alive, and the youngest surviving holder.
> Four in Vietnam:
> WO2 Kevin Wheatley, Australian Army Training Team
> Maj. Peter Badcoe, Australian Army Training Team
> WO2 Ray Simpson, Australian Army Training Team
> WO2 Keith Payne, Australian Army Training Team
Of this lot, the only one still alive is Payne.
> But, equal in honor and precedence is the George Cross, awarded to civilians and soldiers for heroism
> against unbeatable odds not directly military. In the US, we honor those who perform such lifesaving deeds
> as throwing themselves on grenades with Congressional Medals of Honor. The Brits would award a George Cross
> in this case, not differentiating between the recipients military or civilian status.
It depends who threw the grenade. If it was an enemy one and the
person throwing himself on it was military, then that's a VC matter.
If it's a training accident, then the GC would be awarded.
I recently read (in the Times obit of the Ghurka VC who died last
month), that the VC is only awarded in cases where the chance of death
is rated as about 85%. I don't know how reliable that is.
This is why the VC
> has not been issued in 18 years, but awards the George Cross continue to honor the courage shown by subjects
> of the Queen.
Since 1946 there have been 45 awards of the GC (one of them to a
corporate body) - 30 of those awards were posthumious. There have also
been eight awards of the Albert Medal and 11 of the Edward Medal (which
were exchanged for GCs in 1971). Apart from the RUC award granted
earlier this year, the most recent were in 1990 to Sgt S G Guthrie, New
Zealand Police, and WO1 B Johnson.
Edwin
Brad Ferguson
<edwin...@virgin.net> wrote:
> There have also been eight awards of the Albert Medal and 11 of the
> Edward Medal (which were exchanged for GCs in 1971).
This is the part I don't understand. Someone did something courageous
and was awarded an Edward Medal. That seems to be a considerable
honor. Then, years or decades later, someone decides that these medals
must be "exchanged" for George Crosses. Why? Are the George Crosses
considered to be "better"? Do you have to send back the Edward Medal
to get a George Cross? Are the Edward Medals retroactively worthless?
What if you simply want to keep the Edward Medal they gave you in the
first place?
I am genuinely curious about this.
Edwin King
>
> This is the part I don't understand. Someone did something courageous
> and was awarded an Edward Medal. That seems to be a considerable
> honor. Then, years or decades later, someone decides that these medals
> must be "exchanged" for George Crosses. Why? Are the George Crosses
> considered to be "better"? Do you have to send back the Edward Medal
> to get a George Cross? Are the Edward Medals retroactively worthless?
> What if you simply want to keep the Edward Medal they gave you in the
> first place?
It was to simplify matters and because the AM and EM *weren't* lesser
than the GC, that the awards were all merged. After all, having three
awards (plus the George Medal and other "lesser" awards) was just a
little confusing and it was felt that EM and AM holders weren't being
properly honoured.
As I recall, the EM (which was initially for heroism in coal mines and
other industrial situations) was awarded by on the recommendation of the
Board of Trade, the AM by the Home Office and the GC by someone else
again - people must have inevitably fallen through the gaps and the
standard of awards must have varied.
In at least one case the recipitant didn't give up his insignia - George
Manwaring went to the Palace to be invested with his GC in 1975, but
donated his EM (won in 1949) to the Gloucester City Museum.
There's a fact sheet on the GC at
http://www.iwm.org.uk/lambeth/exhibits/ex-gc.htm
Edwin
Louis Epstein
:
:
: >
: > Brian Watson wrote:
: > >
: > > I assume I am right in thinking that the award has not been made
: > > for/during "peace-keeping" actions?
: >
: > Not yet. There's no reason it shouldn't be if the need arises.
: >
: > Edwin
: Sgt. Ian McKay and Lt. Col. "H" Jones, both late of The Parachute Regiment.
(posthumously)
: Since WWII, only 11 have been awarded:
:
: Four in Korea --
: Major Kenneth Muir, The Argyll and Sunderland Highlanders
: LT. Phillip Curtis, The Duke of Cornwall Light Infantry
: Lt. Col. James Carne, The Glouchestershire Regiment
: Pvt. William Speakman, The Black Watch while attached to The King's
: Own Scottish Borderers
:
: One in Borneo (1965) --
: Lance Cpl. Rambahadur Limbu, 2nd/10th Gurka Riles
:
: Four in Vietnam:
: WO2 Kevin Wheatley, Australian Army Training Team
: Maj. Peter Badcoe, Australian Army Training Team
: WO2 Ray Simpson, Australian Army Training Team
: WO2 Keith Payne, Australian Army Training Team
:
: In 1991, Mark Adkin published "The Last Eleven?" a history of the above
: awards and an appraisal of the chances the VC would ever be awarded again.
:
: As was said, it may be only a matter of time.
I read somewhere that it's now intended to award the VC only posthumously.
One of those modernism-manias that tries to relegate glories to the past
only...like stopping hereditary peerage creations and promotions to
Field Marshal and the other five star ranks.
: But, equal in honor and precedence is the George Cross, awarded to
: civilians and soldiers for heroism
Not equal,but second.Should someone have occasion in life to win both,
the V.C. would come first.
: against unbeatable odds not directly military. In the US, we honor
: those who perform such lifesaving deeds as throwing themselves on
: grenades with Congressional Medals of Honor.
If they're military.CMH never goes to civilians,
though there's always the chance of a Congressional
Gold Medal(not typically attributed to a deed).
The Presidential Medal of Freedom With Distinction
is the top honor for the civil side,though it can go
to military recipients as well.
: The Brits would award a George Cross in this case, not differentiating
: between the recipients military or civilian status. This is why the VC
: has not been issued in 18 years, but awards the George Cross continue
: to honor the courage shown by subjects of the Queen.
:
: During Vietnam, an Army nurse threw herself on a grenade thrown into a
: hospital tent by the Viet Cong. Given the official status of women in
: the military at that time, the highest award she could be issued was
: the Bronze Star. During the TWA 800 hijacking,
Wrong flight number...800 was the one that crashed in the sea off Long
Island.
: the young Navy diver who stood up to the terrorists and was
Brad Ferguson
Epstein <l...@put.com> wrote:
> If they're military.CMH never goes to civilians,
> though there's always the chance of a Congressional
> Gold Medal(not typically attributed to a deed).
Never say never. George M. Cohan was awarded a Medal of Honor (in
1942, I think) for his songwriting.
Brad Ferguson
<edwin...@virgin.net> wrote:
Thanks very much for the explanation, Edwin.
Mike Fleming
"Brian Watson" <br...@spheroid.demon.co.uk> writes:
> I assume I am right in thinking that the award has not been made for/during
> "peace-keeping" actions?
I don't think that a state of war was ever declared between Britain
and Argentina over the Falklands, and there was a VC awarded in that
(posthumous as well, so the 24 didn't get expanded to 25...).
--
Mike Fleming