SMTP server to replace the Gradwell one

[Roland Perry]

After years of happy subscription to the Gradwell SMTP server , I've
been cut off.

Several hours grappling with Pickaweb's lack-of-support staff lead me to
believe their so-called substitute is a non-starter.

I can't immediately see an offering from TSOHosts.

What alternative services have readers here used?
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <yNBp7e4J...@perry.co.uk>, at 17:19:21 on Sun, 16 Sep
2018, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> remarked:

>After years of happy subscription to the Gradwell SMTP server , I've
>been cut off.
>
>Several hours grappling with Pickaweb's lack-of-support staff lead me
>to believe their so-called substitute is a non-starter.
>
>I can't immediately see an offering from TSOHosts.

And after a half hour chat with a sales rep who really didn't understand
the concept of what was required, at least to begin with, I'm pretty
certain they don't.

[Martin Liddle]

On 16/09/2018 17:19, Roland Perry wrote:
> After years of happy subscription to the Gradwell SMTP server , I've
> been cut off.
>

> I can't immediately see an offering from TSOHosts.
>

What EXACTLY is it that you want. TSOHost certainly have SMTP servers,


--
Martin Liddle, Tynemouth Computer Services
Staveley, Chesterfield, Derbyshire UK

[Roger Hayter]

I have gone with Portfast. I don't know much about them, except they
don't seem to answer silly questions very quickly by email. When I
think of a sensible question, or ring them, I'll see if I do better.
OTOH the web front end to their email offering, which is 18GBP per year
per domain, seems to follow the same rules as an alias file and is more
versatile than cPanel, and they have got an automatable API for hosting
which is probably labour saving if one has the skills to use it. I
have no idea about their business situation (going broke or being taken
over is always a risk for small firms, then again dropping dead is
always a risk for individual clients).

For some reason my initial impression is very favourable. They were
very friendly and apologetic when they did answer my silly question.


--

Roger Hayter

[Jim Crowther]

In uk.net.providers.gradwell, on Sun, 16 Sep 2018 17:19:21, Roland Perry
wrote:

Gosh - I found Pickaweb very easy.

Just use the outgoing server mail.yourdomain.tld (not their phantom
whatever) with the username as your email address and password either
the gobbledy-gook they sent or a new one that you can set up in your
cPanel control pages. You do need a different login and password for
cPanel.

i.e., for both incoming and outgoing email:

Server: mail.yourdomain.tld
Username: al...@yourdomain.tld
Password: Whatever you set up, or use the impossible to remember one
they give you...

--
Jim Crowther

[Jim Crowther]

In uk.net.providers.gradwell, on Sun, 16 Sep 2018 19:44:33, Roger Hayter
wrote:

Agreed, Portfast is great to use. , and I'm still using it for the
plainfaqs.org.uk website. However, they don't allow any web-page to
show the indices regardless of how you set up .htaccess. This proves to
be a deal-breaker for some of my websites, so I've decided to stick with
Pickaweb.


--
Jim Crowther

[Roland Perry]

In message <pnm515$33d$1...@dont-email.me>, at 18:48:21 on Sun, 16 Sep
2018, Martin Liddle <new...@tynecomp.co.uk> remarked:

>> After years of happy subscription to the Gradwell SMTP server , I've
>>been cut off.
>> I can't immediately see an offering from TSOHosts.
>
>What EXACTLY is it that you want. TSOHost certainly have SMTP servers,

I want exactly what Gradwell provided, which was an authenticated mail
relay which didn't *only* work for email addresses associated with
domains which were co-incidentally hosted by Gradwell.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <YYcrAG9r...@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID.invalid>, at
12:03:07 on Sun, 16 Sep 2018, Jim Crowther
<Don't_bo...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> remarked:

>>After years of happy subscription to the Gradwell SMTP server , I've
>>been cut off.
>>
>>Several hours grappling with Pickaweb's lack-of-support staff lead me
>>to believe their so-called substitute is a non-starter.
>>
>>I can't immediately see an offering from TSOHosts.
>>
>>What alternative services have readers here used?
>
>Gosh - I found Pickaweb very easy.
>
>Just use the outgoing server mail.yourdomain.tld (not their phantom
>whatever) with the username as your email address

This is part of the problem I have with Pickaweb support, and several
others. I DON'T HAVE *an email address*, or even *a domain* I have
dozens of email addresses at each of a dozen domains, for historical
reasons hosted at multiple providers.

The way that Pickaweb (and others) conflate the concepts of "email
address" with "account name" is merely further evidence they've dumbed
themselves down to below the horizon.

I know for a fact that Pickaweb (who always ask what *my email address
is* if I start a support chat, have an email address hosted at somewhere
else, as the place they email me. After all, if the biggest issue is
that Pickaweb's email system is broken, why would I want to discuss this
with them using their broken system, rather than another which isn't
broken?

>and password either the gobbledy-gook they sent or a new one that you
>can set up in your cPanel control pages. You do need a different login
>and password for cPanel.
>
>i.e., for both incoming and outgoing email:
>
>Server: mail.yourdomain.tld
>Username: al...@yourdomain.tld
>Password: Whatever you set up, or use the impossible to remember one
>they give you...

But "yourdomain" (aka "mydomain") isn't necessarily hosted at Pickaweb.

In fact as time goes on fewer and fewer will be, given their general
lack of clue.
--
Roland Perry

[Jim Crowther]

In uk.net.providers.gradwell, on Sun, 16 Sep 2018 20:33:22, Roland Perry
wrote:

So you don't have any domains with Pickaweb, but you want them to
provide you with a SMTP server? That seems odd!

I do have at least one domain with Pickaweb, and I can send email
through Pickaweb's SMTP server using any other email address I like - I
just have to authenticate with that server using a Pickaweb hosted
domain. That domain doesn't appear anywhere in the email itself.

You could run your own SMTP server if you wished. Or am I missing the
point entirely?

--
Jim Crowther

[Roland Perry]

In message <Q+cJJq$oA8n...@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID.invalid>, at
07:54:32 on Mon, 17 Sep 2018, Jim Crowther

I have a few, courtesy of being bumped there unannounced by Gradwell.

>but you want them to provide you with a SMTP server? That seems odd!

I want the same service as Gradwell, which they provided precisely to
allow proper end-to-end email, of any domain from anywhere (via their
authenticating relay).

>I do have at least one domain with Pickaweb, and I can send email
>through Pickaweb's SMTP server using any other email address I like - I
>just have to authenticate with that server using a Pickaweb hosted
>domain.

Hold on. You appear to be doing what Pickaweb does all the time,
conflating email addresses with account names.

The problem I have with their SMTP server at the moment is persuading
MS-Outlook to accept the Pickaweb account/password credentials, and send
anything.

Other clients (such as Turnpike) work fine.

But given Pickaweb's inability to debug something as simple as sending
email via MS-Outlook, I have a sinking feeling about their entire
operation.

>That domain doesn't appear anywhere in the email itself.

That suggestion hasn't been made in the hours of hand-to-numpty fighting
with their "support" line.

What SMTP server have they given you? (The name not the credentials!)

>You could run your own SMTP server if you wished. Or am I missing the
>point entirely?

Well, yes. I can (and have) run my own SMTP server in the past, but
being a residential [ADSL] customer of an ISP, vast numbers of servers
used by recipients bounce the emails on account of allegedly coming from
a "dial-up" account. It's also quite inconvenient having to tunnel stuff
through to an SMTP server at home, when I'm on a train with wifi and
want to send an email from there (and similar scenarios).

This has been a bone of contention for over a decade, and one of the
reasons the simple (and it worked) solution was to get an SMTP server
account with Gradwell.
--
Roland Perry

[Jim Crowther]

In uk.net.providers.gradwell, on Mon, 17 Sep 2018 16:57:43, Roland Perry

As above, I use mail.one-of-my-domains.tld as the SMTP server name. The
IP address of that is just their SMTP server address: 89.187.86.9

It does need authentication (separately to send and receive), so at
least one email address has to be set up for that domain, along with a
password. You then use that email address (it doesn't have to be a
'live' one that receives email) and password to authenticate. You can
then send emails from any other domain/email address through that
server.

So even if you don't want any email to or from any of your domains, to
send email you must set up at least one email address and associated
password at Pickaweb. Just dummy@one-of-yourdomains would be fine. You
can make it a blackhole address if you want - it's just needed to
authenticate with the server.

>>You could run your own SMTP server if you wished. Or am I missing the
>>point entirely?
>
>Well, yes. I can (and have) run my own SMTP server in the past, but
>being a residential [ADSL] customer of an ISP, vast numbers of servers
>used by recipients bounce the emails on account of allegedly coming
>from a "dial-up" account. It's also quite inconvenient having to tunnel
>stuff through to an SMTP server at home, when I'm on a train with wifi
>and want to send an email from there (and similar scenarios).
>
>This has been a bone of contention for over a decade, and one of the
>reasons the simple (and it worked) solution was to get an SMTP server
>account with Gradwell.

If you have domains with Pickaweb, then you can send emails via
Pickaweb's server, no problem. No separate 'SMTP account' required.


--
Jim Crowther

[Roland Perry]

In message <44RjYxBj...@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID.invalid>, at
18:23:47 on Mon, 17 Sep 2018, Jim Crowther
<Don't_bo...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> remarked:

>It does need authentication (separately to send and receive), so at
>least one email address has to be set up for that domain, along with a
>password. You then use that email address (it doesn't have to be a
>'live' one that receives email) and password to authenticate.

As I've said before, the email address, which they confusingly conflate
with an account name, for the Pickaweb account is *not* one which they
host.

But in any event, neither using that email address, nor any which they
host, authenticates with the SMTP server.

I really don't have time to spend banging my head against their
lack-of-support desk to get that sorted. Even assuming it would in fact
work, because if it did they are selling me the separate SMTP server
service under false pretences.
--
Roland Perry

[Jim Crowther]

In uk.net.providers.gradwell, on Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:54:53, Roland Perry
wrote:

>In message <44RjYxBj...@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID.invalid>, at
>18:23:47 on Mon, 17 Sep 2018, Jim Crowther
><Don't_bo...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> remarked:
>>It does need authentication (separately to send and receive), so at
>>least one email address has to be set up for that domain, along with a
>>password. You then use that email address (it doesn't have to be a
>>'live' one that receives email) and password to authenticate.
>
>As I've said before, the email address, which they confusingly conflate
>with an account name, for the Pickaweb account is *not* one which they
>host.

My contact email address with them is the same (not hosted there) - and
is also used to log in to the account. However, that is nothing to do
with email sending/receiving. You should have been sent a list of email
addresses they have associated with the domains hosted, along with
(rather nasty) passwords for them. To tidy this up, you need a separate
cPanel login so you can trim any dross and apply more sensible
passwords.

>But in any event, neither using that email address, nor any which they
>host, authenticates with the SMTP server.

Any email address that they host should work (using as the server), as
long as you have been given the relevant password.

>
>I really don't have time to spend banging my head against their
>lack-of-support desk to get that sorted. Even assuming it would in fact
>work, because if it did they are selling me the separate SMTP server
>service under false pretences.

Why do you need a 'separate' SMTP server service? They all use the same
one. Just use what you already (though you don't seem to acknowledge
it) have access to!

--
Jim Crowther

[Jim Crowther]

In uk.net.providers.gradwell, on Tue, 18 Sep 2018 07:42:58, Jim Crowther
wrote:

>Any email address that they host should work (using as the server), as
>long as you have been given the relevant password.

That was intended to read:
(using as the server name)

--
Jim Crowther

[Roland Perry]

In message <n9l0ZYDy...@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID.invalid>, at
07:42:58 on Tue, 18 Sep 2018, Jim Crowther

<Don't_bo...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> remarked:
>In uk.net.providers.gradwell, on Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:54:53, Roland
>Perry wrote:
>
>>In message <44RjYxBj...@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID.invalid>, at
>>18:23:47 on Mon, 17 Sep 2018, Jim Crowther
>><Don't_bo...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> remarked:
>>>It does need authentication (separately to send and receive), so at
>>>least one email address has to be set up for that domain, along with
>>>a password. You then use that email address (it doesn't have to be a
>>>'live' one that receives email) and password to authenticate.
>>
>>As I've said before, the email address, which they confusingly
>>conflate with an account name, for the Pickaweb account is *not* one
>>which they host.
>
>My contact email address with them is the same (not hosted there) - and
>is also used to log in to the account. However, that is nothing to do
>with email sending/receiving. You should have been sent a list of
>email addresses they have associated with the domains hosted, along
>with (rather nasty) passwords for them. To tidy this up, you need a
>separate cPanel login so you can trim any dross and apply more sensible
>passwords.

One of the enduring mysteries is why their cPanel login isn't linked
from their 'clientarea' home page.

But anyway, it turns out the account has no email addresses associated
with it (that have a password) just a set of forwarding rules imported
from Gradwell. And until I got them to import those, all my email was
going into a webmail default account. (at least it wasn't completely
lost, which is what it looked like for a few days).

>>But in any event, neither using that email address, nor any which they
>>host, authenticates with the SMTP server.
>
>Any email address that they host should work (using as the server), as
>long as you have been given the relevant password.

I've set one up, (and thus chosen my own password).

>>I really don't have time to spend banging my head against their
>>lack-of-support desk to get that sorted. Even assuming it would in
>>fact work, because if it did they are selling me the separate SMTP
>>server service under false pretences.
>
>Why do you need a 'separate' SMTP server service?

Because I apparently needed one with Gradwell, and so they've set one up
as a substitute.

>They all use the same one. Just use what you already (though you don't
>seem to acknowledge it) have access to!

Having tried the above, it does indeed work! Thanks (why two weeks on
did Pickaweb not mention any of this, despite numerous support chats,
tickets etc)?

All I need to do now is see if I can persuade a couple of Outlook
installations on other PCs here to accept the fact I'm sending email
through a different server/account from the one its being picked up
from.
--
Roland Perry

[Jim Crowther]

In uk.net.providers.gradwell, on Tue, 18 Sep 2018 16:36:47, Roland Perry
wrote:

>All I need to do now is see if I can persuade a couple of Outlook
>installations on other PCs here to accept the fact I'm sending email
>through a different server/account from the one its being picked up from.

Well done getting it sorted so far - and good luck with Outlook. I
managed to set up a cousin's iMac after this kerfuffle, even though I'd
never encountered one before - but I failed miserably with another PC
using Outlook. Their young daughter managed it in a few minutes though,
so there is hope...

--
Jim Crowther

[Jim Crowther]

In uk.net.providers.gradwell, on Tue, 18 Sep 2018 07:50:14, Jim Crowther
wrote:

AARRGHH! Some mechanism is deleting a huge chunk of what I've written
between the words 'using' and 'as the server name'.

You use mail (dot) domain-of-that-email-address as the server name.
Let's hope that gets through whatever has filtered out what I wrote
before. :(

--
Jim Crowther

[Roland Perry]

In message <n9l0ZYDy...@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID.invalid>, at

07:42:58 on Tue, 18 Sep 2018, Jim Crowther
<Don't_bo...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> remarked:

>>As I've said before, the email address, which they confusingly
>>conflate with an account name, for the Pickaweb account is *not* one
>>which they host.
>
>My contact email address with them is the same (not hosted there) - and
>is also used to log in to the account. However, that is nothing to do
>with email sending/receiving. You should have been sent a list of
>email addresses they have associated with the domains hosted, along
>with (rather nasty) passwords for them. To tidy this up, you need a
>separate cPanel login so you can trim any dross and apply more sensible
>passwords.
>
>>But in any event, neither using that email address, nor any which they
>>host, authenticates with the SMTP server.
>
>Any email address that they host should work (using as the server), as
>long as you have been given the relevant password.

I presumed that you meant "any email address hosted any them can be used
to authenticate", but read on...

>>I really don't have time to spend banging my head against their
>>lack-of-support desk to get that sorted. Even assuming it would in
>>fact work, because if it did they are selling me the separate SMTP
>>server service under false pretences.
>
>Why do you need a 'separate' SMTP server service?

Because I want to send emails "from" domains *not* hosted by them.

And I was premature in agreeing that this worked. As far as I can tell
it doesn't work - the emails are silently discarded (a bit of a trait of
Pickaweb, it seems).

As such, it's of no use to me, because I need one SMTP server to send
emails based on domains hosted at [currently] five different service
providers. (I'm trying hard to migrate that down to perhaps three, but
the Gradwell->Pickaweb involuntary migration has thrown this into
confusion, not least because most of my available effort is (still)
trying to resurrect the services I had with Gradwell.

Of course, this restriction to "domains hosted here" isn't especially
unusual, it's something connectivity providers tend to do with their
added-value domain/mail hosting services. Which is of course why I am
most reluctant to have an SMTP server tied to the connectivity provider,
even if I was always sending emails from home. But I want to send them
from *wherever* I happen to be.

And that's what the Gradwell SMTP service allowed. (All connectivity,
all domains wherever they were hosted).

ps I can't help noticing that all the emails (from both hosted and
not-hosted domains) which I sent as tests using your scheme never,
arrived at my Gmail account. But I really have no incentive whatsoever
to debug that aspect, because I won't now be using that scheme to send
emails.
--
Roland Perry

[David Gibson]

On 19/09/2018 16:20, Roland Perry wrote:

[snip]

>> Why do you need a 'separate' SMTP server service?
> Because I want to send emails "from" domains *not* hosted by them.

[snip]

> Of course, this restriction to "domains hosted here" isn't especially
> unusual, it's something connectivity providers tend to do with their
> added-value domain/mail hosting services. Which is of course why I am
> most reluctant to have an SMTP server tied to the connectivity provider

I think you will find that the restriction to "domains hosted here" is
pretty common these days. Its to do with retaining domain reputation in
the spam blacklists.

But, even so, I note that Im free to use my BT Internet SMTP connection
with "domains not hosted by BT".

It seems to me that you are expecting far too much from Pickaweb, who
are clearly not in the business of providing the specialised service you
want. Carping on about ...

> And that's what the Gradwell SMTP service allowed. (All connectivity,
> all domains wherever they were hosted)

serves no purpose. "That was then; this is now".

It seems to me that you need to rent a virtual server from someone of
high reputation, like Memset for example, and then you can configure it
to do exactly what you want it to do. I moved all my Gradwell accounts
to a VS on Memset.

--
David Gibson

[Roland Perry]

In message <pnvqda$o3q$1...@dont-email.me>, at 10:48:28 on Thu, 20 Sep
2018, David Gibson <david@[127.0.0.1]> remarked:

>On 19/09/2018 16:20, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>[snip]
>>> Why do you need a 'separate' SMTP server service?
>> Because I want to send emails "from" domains *not* hosted by them.
>[snip]
>
>> Of course, this restriction to "domains hosted here" isn't especially
>> unusual, it's something connectivity providers tend to do with their
>> added-value domain/mail hosting services. Which is of course why I am
>> most reluctant to have an SMTP server tied to the connectivity provider
>
>I think you will find that the restriction to "domains hosted here" is
>pretty common these days. Its to do with retaining domain reputation in
>the spam blacklists.

Gradwell's defence against spammers was that the SMTP account was
rate-limited. iirc to 100 emails a day.

>But, even so, I note that Im free to use my BT Internet SMTP connection
>with "domains not hosted by BT".

That's interesting. My impression was they are one of the main
"not-hosted-here" refuseniks.

>It seems to me that you are expecting far too much from Pickaweb, who
>are clearly not in the business of providing the specialised service you
>want.

They claim to be taking over the Gradwell service, and that's all I was
looking for.

Sadly, they are so clueless, I really can't continue to be a customer
long term, hence the need for an alternative.

>It seems to me that you need to rent a virtual server from someone of
>high reputation, like Memset for example, and then you can configure it
>to do exactly what you want it to do. I moved all my Gradwell accounts
>to a VS on Memset.

I don't think I want to be a sysadmin of a virtual server. What I need
is someone who does all that stuff, and gives me a simple two-part
authentication of "username" and "password", for a server somewhere,
that simply [in both senses] works the way the Internet is supposed to.
--
Roland Perry

[David Gibson]

On 20/09/2018 12:43, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <pnvqda$o3q$1...@dont-email.me>, at 10:48:28 on Thu, 20 Sep
> 2018, David Gibson <david@[127.0.0.1]> remarked:

>> But, even so, I note that Im free to use my BT Internet SMTP connection
>> with "domains not hosted by BT".
>
> That's interesting. My impression was they are one of the main
> "not-hosted-here" refuseniks.

Its not straightforward :-)

Its a while since I set it up and, actually, now I come to think about
it, I havent used it for a while. Possibly Im writing nonsense.

But ISTR that you had to set up something on their web site so that your
domain name was recognised.

BUT... BT Internet's email is ... strange. They do something very
peculiar "internally" with SPF records which Im sure breaks all the
rules. Unfortunately, I forget the details, but I had to set up SPF
records on my domain specifically to address BT's strange behaviour.

> I don't think I want to be a sysadmin of a virtual server. What I need
> is someone who does all that stuff, and gives me a simple two-part
> authentication of "username" and "password", for a server somewhere,
> that simply [in both senses] works the way the Internet is supposed to.

Noted. Whether that service is available, I dont know.


--
David Gibson

[Roland Perry]

In message <po02s6$9sm$1...@dont-email.me>, at 13:12:58 on Thu, 20 Sep

2018, David Gibson <david@[127.0.0.1]> remarked:
>On 20/09/2018 12:43, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <pnvqda$o3q$1...@dont-email.me>, at 10:48:28 on Thu, 20 Sep
>> 2018, David Gibson <david@[127.0.0.1]> remarked:
>
>>> But, even so, I note that Im free to use my BT Internet SMTP connection
>>> with "domains not hosted by BT".
>>
>> That's interesting. My impression was they are one of the main
>> "not-hosted-here" refuseniks.
>
>Its not straightforward :-)
>
>Its a while since I set it up and, actually, now I come to think about
>it, I havent used it for a while. Possibly Im writing nonsense.
>
>But ISTR that you had to set up something on their web site so that your
>domain name was recognised.
>
>BUT... BT Internet's email is ... strange. They do something very
>peculiar "internally" with SPF records which Im sure breaks all the
>rules. Unfortunately, I forget the details, but I had to set up SPF
>records on my domain specifically to address BT's strange behaviour.

I'm extraordinarily reluctant to get involved with SPF, especially when
my domain hosting is spread so thinly. (Yes, I ought to sort that out,
but having this Pickaweb nonsense to deal with has exhausted most of my
available time/energy for such things).

>> I don't think I want to be a sysadmin of a virtual server. What I need
>> is someone who does all that stuff, and gives me a simple two-part
>> authentication of "username" and "password", for a server somewhere,
>> that simply [in both senses] works the way the Internet is supposed to.
>
>Noted. Whether that service is available, I dont know.

There are a few. I was looking for recommendations (In the same way
people seemed happy to recommend TSO as a lifeboat a couple of years
ago).
--
Roland Perry