Re: Hamas

[Roger Hayter]

On 18 Dec 2023 at 14:32:35 GMT, "Ottavio Caruso"
<ottavio2006...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Am 18/12/2023 um 12:33 schrieb The Todal:
>> It is relevant to the extent that our government's slavish support of
>> Israel is out of step with most civilised nations in the world. And to
>> the extent that we should not underestimate Israel's willingness to tell
>> lies to those with scruples about the massacre of innocent civilians.
>
> I find this very offensive and dangerously one-sided. Reminds me of
> 1930s narrative. (No, I wasn't there, but, you know, history and such...)

You mean the 1930s narrative about the Nazis? That is what it sounds like to
me.

--
Roger Hayter

[Fredxx]

On 18/12/2023 14:32, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
> Am 18/12/2023 um 12:33 schrieb The Todal:
>> It is relevant to the extent that our government's slavish support of
>> Israel is out of step with most civilised nations in the world.  And
>> to the extent that we should not underestimate Israel's willingness to
>> tell lies to those with scruples about the massacre of innocent
>> civilians.
>
> I find this very offensive and dangerously one-sided.

But true?

> Reminds me of
> 1930s narrative. (No, I wasn't there, but, you know, history and such...)

They do say if you ignore history it's likely to repeat itself. It only
takes a few generations for us to forget, such as the terrorist networks
Stern and Irgun and their attacks.

[The Todal]

On 18/12/2023 14:32, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
> Am 18/12/2023 um 12:33 schrieb The Todal:
>> It is relevant to the extent that our government's slavish support of
>> Israel is out of step with most civilised nations in the world.  And
>> to the extent that we should not underestimate Israel's willingness to
>> tell lies to those with scruples about the massacre of innocent
>> civilians.
>

> I find this very offensive and dangerously one-sided. Reminds me of

> 1930s narrative. (No, I wasn't there, but, you know, history and such...)
>

Are you offended?

Feel free to post something to redress the balance, eg to justify
Israel's ethnic cleansing of Gaza. Human shields! Even innocent Israelis
can expect to be shot by the IDF if they are in the vicinity of terrorists.

[The Todal]

On 18/12/2023 17:26, Ottavio Caruso wrote:

> That's the problem. I can't redress the balance. Those who want the
> extinction of Israel are more powerful than me.
>

Yes, but they are still very weak and feeble. Even the terrorists are no
match for a proper army.

[Roger Hayter]

And, of course, there is a very large (most of the world) excluded middle who
want neither the destruction of Israel nor Israel's current treatment of the
occupied territories.

--
Roger Hayter

[Spike]

It would be interesting to discover what the ‘very large (most of the
world) excluded middle’ could put forward as a solution to the problem of a
brutal, violent, and armed genocidal terrorist organisation that has
embedded itself among a civilian population and from which it attacks its
neighbour with terror raids and thousands of rockets. Up to now, the calls
of the ‘very large (most of the world) excluded middle’ for humanitarian
pauses and cease-fires just don’t seem to be solving that particular
problem; in fact they seem to be making things worse. But perhaps such
calls make the ‘very large (most of the world) excluded middle’ feel
virtuous while accomplishing nothing.

--
Spike

[The Todal]

Very droll. It would be interesting to discover how the government of
Israel hoped to continue its policy of apartheid and territory-grabbing
and whether there was a belief that the Untermenschen, the Palestinians,
would continue meekly to accept this.

Blame the terrorists, because that's very easy and plays well with the
Press and with the Israeli citizens. It's much the same strategy as we
had with Northern Ireland. Never forgive, and one day we'll wipe out all
the IRA and the INLA and all the bombers. A dimwit policy.

[Spike]

Not a good example to use of the way forward, as NI doesn’t have much of a
functioning government…

When you say ‘never forgive’, what do you think Hamas’ reaction to an
Israeli policy of forgiveness towards them? Other than yet another
terrorist raid into Israel accompanied by an attack on civilian targets by
thousands of rockets?

--
Spike

[Jon Ribbens]

On 2023-12-19, Brian Morrison <ne...@fenrir.org.uk> wrote:

> On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 16:26:41 +0000
> The Todal <the_...@icloud.com> wrote:
>> Even innocent Israelis can expect to be shot by the IDF if they are
>> in the vicinity of terrorists.
>

> You've heard of the expression "the fog of war"? Unfortunately these
> things happen during urban fighting, and indeed elsewhere. I saw two
> video clips the other day showing in one case a Russian SU-25 shot down
> by a Russian SAM system and another of a Russian Su-25 being missed in
> the order of a few feet by a Russian multiple Grad rocket launch.
>
> Blue on blue is everyone's problem and is often not easy to solve.
>
> A nasty business, war.

But it isn't fog of war, now is it? If you see three people, stripped to
the waist, empty-handed except for a white flag, there's no "fog". If you
shoot them it's because you are making a deliberate decision to execute
people who are posing no threat.

[The Todal]

They might have sincerely believed that they were terrorists trying to
protect themselves with a white flag of truce, but the policy might have
been for the army to shoot them anyway to demonstrate that terrorists
can expect no quarter, no mercy.

I suppose there might be scenarios in which it becomes inconvenient to
take prisoners, with nowhere to confine them safely, but that shouldn't
be a valid reason to execute them.

[Jeff Gaines]

On 20/12/2023 in message <20231220124...@deangelis.fenrir.org.uk>
Brian Morrison wrote:

>As the IDF said, they will not punish these soldiers for making
>a mistake, after all they will have to live with their actions for the
>rest of their lives

That seems to me consistent with Israel giving instructions to its
military to shoot first and ask questions afterwards. Hopefully something
a war crimes tribunal will consider.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
That's an amazing invention but who would ever want to use one of them?
(President Hayes speaking to Alexander Graham Bell on the invention of the
telephone)

[Jon Ribbens]

On 2023-12-20, Brian Morrison <ne...@fenrir.org.uk> wrote:

> No, it's because you can't tell if they are Hamas who are waving a
> white flag

... in which case they are "people who are posing no threat", as I said.

> to encourage you to move in where they have a sniper waiting or not.

So you don't move to them, you order them to move to you.

[Jon Ribbens]

On 2023-12-20, Brian Morrison <ne...@fenrir.org.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 13:27:44 -0000 (UTC)

> Jon Ribbens <jon+u...@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
>> On 2023-12-20, Brian Morrison <ne...@fenrir.org.uk> wrote:
>> > On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 11:22:24 -0000 (UTC)
>> > Jon Ribbens <jon+u...@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
>> >> But it isn't fog of war, now is it? If you see three people,
>> >> stripped to the waist, empty-handed except for a white flag,
>> >> there's no "fog". If you shoot them it's because you are making a
>> >> deliberate decision to execute people who are posing no threat.
>> >
>> > No, it's because you can't tell if they are Hamas who are waving a
>> > white flag
>>
>> ... in which case they are "people who are posing no threat", as I
>> said.
>

> Not easy to know that, battlefields are full of threats.

If three mostly-naked people pose a terrifying threat to armed soldiers
then I think perhaps those soldiers are too timid to be involved in any
sort of conflict.

[Spike]

Jon Ribbens <jon+u...@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
> On 2023-12-20, Brian Morrison <ne...@fenrir.org.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 11:22:24 -0000 (UTC)
>> Jon Ribbens <jon+u...@unequivocal.eu> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-12-19, Brian Morrison <ne...@fenrir.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 18 Dec 2023 16:26:41 +0000
>>>> The Todal <the_...@icloud.com> wrote:
>>>>> Even innocent Israelis can expect to be shot by the IDF if they are
>>>>> in the vicinity of terrorists.
>>>>
>>>> You've heard of the expression "the fog of war"? Unfortunately these
>>>> things happen during urban fighting, and indeed elsewhere. I saw two
>>>> video clips the other day showing in one case a Russian SU-25 shot
>>>> down by a Russian SAM system and another of a Russian Su-25 being
>>>> missed in the order of a few feet by a Russian multiple Grad rocket
>>>> launch.
>>>>
>>>> Blue on blue is everyone's problem and is often not easy to solve.
>>>>
>>>> A nasty business, war.
>>>
>>> But it isn't fog of war, now is it? If you see three people, stripped
>>> to the waist, empty-handed except for a white flag, there's no "fog".
>>> If you shoot them it's because you are making a deliberate decision
>>> to execute people who are posing no threat.
>>
>> No, it's because you can't tell if they are Hamas who are waving a
>> white flag
>
> ... in which case they are "people who are posing no threat", as I said.

They are posing a threat simply because of their age, sex, and presence in
a combat zone, even if stripped to their waists and waving white flags.
Hamas, as you may have noticed, does not obey the rules of war, and could
be expected make use of white flags and/or civilian clothing should a
suitable situation arise that they could exploit.

It is also unrealistic to expect that every front-line Israeli soldier has
memorised the photographs of more than a hundred people, and so they could
not expect to be recognised. Blue on blue is an unfortunate aspect of
warfare.

>> to encourage you to move in where they have a sniper waiting or not.

> So you don't move to them, you order them to move to you.

If they are a threat, that could make the situation even worse.

--
Spike

[Jon Ribbens]

The significance of "stripped to the waist" isn't that they're not
wearing some sort of military uniform, it's that they're visibly
unarmed (in particular, no suicide vest). The significance of
"empty-handed except for a white flag" is not the white flag,
it's that they're empty-handed, i.e. not holding a weapon.

[Spike]

Even if they were in their birthday suits, they still represent a threat,
such as an drawing an unwise Israeli soldier into the open or otherwise
revealing his position, the white flag constituting the possibility of
helping a misdirection to benefit Hamas. Only when under Israeli control,
and they had been frisked and cuffed, could the threat be said to be
neutralised. Not an easy sequence to undertake in a Hamas free-fire zone.

--
Spike

[Jon Ribbens]

I'll leave you to work out the consequence of your argument for yourself.

[Spike]

And I will leave you to work out the consequences of expecting Hamas to
behave on the battlefield in the same manner as a White Knight.

--
Spike

[Jon Ribbens]

That might make sense if anyone at all had expressed such an expectation.

[Fredxx]

So what you're saying is that when predominantly men turn up in our
country seeking asylum they should be automatically taken in as even you
believe they pose "a threat simply because of their age, sex, and

[Spike]

Actually, that’s what you are saying.

--
Spike

[Spike]

Would ‘implied’ count?

--
Spike

[Jon Ribbens]

That might make sense if anyone at all had implied such an expectation.

[Fredxx]

Maybe, but it follows, "they are posing a threat simply because of their

age, sex, and presence in a combat zone, even if stripped to their

waists and waving white flags", hence if people like you think that is
fine, then asylum status for these men should be automatic.

If however you think that the invading army of an occupied territory
should respect people surrendering then that would be different.

[GB]

Could I just ask that you snip a bit before posting, please.

[Spike]

I was going to suggest that you follow your own advice, namely “I'll leave
you to work out the consequence of your argument for yourself”, but I’m
beginning think that would be a triumph of hope over experience, as would
expecting the brutalists of Hamas to behave like gentlemen.

--
Spike

[Spike]

But the UK isn’t a free-fire zone for Hamas, so your scenario has no
relevance.

> If however you think that the invading army of an occupied territory
> should respect people surrendering then that would be different.

That rather depends on the people surrendering, especially when one
considers that Hamas obeys no rules of war whatsoever.

--
Spike

[The Todal]

That's a sweeping statement for which you have no evidence whatsoever.

Hamas perpetrated a brutal massacre on 7 October which was a war crime.
However, the civilian hostages who have been freed have said, in general
terms, that they were treated courteously. Israel treats its prisoners
very badly.

[Spike]

I’m afraid that I find that claim laughable.

> Hamas perpetrated a brutal massacre on 7 October which was a war crime.

You’re forgetting the rocket bombardment by Hamas.

> However, the civilian hostages who have been freed have said, in general
> terms, that they were treated courteously.

The ones that were burned alive, raped, shot, beheaded, or were
deliberately mutilated by Hamas don’t get a say in this, do they? It’s
known as ‘survivor bias’.

And treating pawns nicely isn’t unknown as a part of a pressure tactic.

> Israel treats its prisoners very badly.

That’s a rather sweeping statement.

--
Spike

[The Todal]

You are easily amused, it seems.

>
>> Hamas perpetrated a brutal massacre on 7 October which was a war crime.
>
> You’re forgetting the rocket bombardment by Hamas.

I forget nothing. The rocket bombardment by Hamas is a war crime but no
more so than the Israeli bombardment of Gaza. Your proposition is "no
rules of war whatsoever" which was mere rhetoric.

>
>> However, the civilian hostages who have been freed have said, in general
>> terms, that they were treated courteously.
>
> The ones that were burned alive, raped, shot, beheaded, or were
> deliberately mutilated by Hamas don’t get a say in this, do they? It’s
> known as ‘survivor bias’.

The ones that were burned alive, shot or mutilated by trigger-happy
Israeli soldiers who couldn't distinguish between terrorists and
civilians don't get a say either.

How many beheadings? One? Two? Obviously even one beheading is too many.
But it's easy to be beheaded when your block of flats or your hospital
ward is demolished by Israeli bombs while you're still in it.

>
> And treating pawns nicely isn’t unknown as a part of a pressure tactic.
>
>> Israel treats its prisoners very badly.
>
> That’s a rather sweeping statement.
>

It is, isn't it?

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/

[Jeff Gaines]

On 22/12/2023 in message <kul3ks...@mid.individual.net> The Todal wrote:

>>That rather depends on the people surrendering, especially when one
>>considers that Hamas obeys no rules of war whatsoever.
>>
>
>
>That's a sweeping statement for which you have no evidence whatsoever.
>
>Hamas perpetrated a brutal massacre on 7 October which was a war crime.
>However, the civilian hostages who have been freed have said, in general
>terms, that they were treated courteously. Israel treats its prisoners
>very badly.

On the basis Hamas is a proscribes terrorist organisation and not a
country can it commit a "war crime" or are the just acts of terrorism?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK

Are you confused about gender?
Try milking a bull, you'll learn real quick.

[Roger Hayter]

On 22 Dec 2023 at 10:53:01 GMT, ""Jeff Gaines"" <jgne...@outlook.com> wrote:

> On 22/12/2023 in message <kul3ks...@mid.individual.net> The Todal wrote:
>
>>> That rather depends on the people surrendering, especially when one
>>> considers that Hamas obeys no rules of war whatsoever.
>>>
>>
>>
>> That's a sweeping statement for which you have no evidence whatsoever.
>>
>> Hamas perpetrated a brutal massacre on 7 October which was a war crime.
>> However, the civilian hostages who have been freed have said, in general
>> terms, that they were treated courteously. Israel treats its prisoners
>> very badly.
>
> On the basis Hamas is a proscribes terrorist organisation and not a
> country can it commit a "war crime" or are the just acts of terrorism?

When Hamas was first elected to govern Gaza it cannot have been an illegal
organisation in Israel as they were recognised by Israel as in charge of Gaza.

--
Roger Hayter

[Jeff Gaines]

On 22/12/2023 in message <kulh16...@mid.individual.net> Roger Hayter
wrote:

OK sorry, I meant here in the UK.

Is a terrorist organisation bound by the various rules of law, seems
unlikely?

If Israel recognised Hamas as running Gaza what was their status?
Presumably Gaza wasn't recognised as a country?

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK

Captcha is thinking of stopping the use of pictures with traffic lights as
cyclists don't know what they are.

[Roger Hayter]

A very good question, which gets to the heart of Israel's problem with the
territories it occupies and their population.

--
Roger Hayter

[billy bookcase]

"The Todal" <the_...@icloud.com> wrote in message
news:kulcdd...@mid.individual.net...
> On 22/12/2023 11:29, billy bookcase wrote:
>> "The Todal" <the_...@icloud.com> wrote in message
>> news:kuj348...@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>> I think it is rather extraordinary that neither the Germans nor
>>> the Japanese seem to bear a grudge against the UK for all the slaughter
>> we carried out during the war.
>>
>> But why would they ?
>
> Because of the many deaths and life-changing injuries. Don't they count for anything

They obviously didn't at the time. Quite how the shell shocked survivors wandering
around among ithe ruins of their devestated countries would have reacted at the time,
had they known that 80 years later some comfortably off Englishman was going
to go into paroxysems of self righteous incredulity over the fact that they weren't
even more bitter than he clearly still is, can only be guessed at.

> if the victorious powers then invest millions of dollars in your country, to the
> benefit of greedy profiteers among you?

And which greedy profiteers would those be then ?

BTW your comparison of Bonmber Command pilots with SS Guards pushing
women and children inro gas chambers is odious beyond belief.

What simply doesn't seem to have occured to you is the only thing that matters
when making moral judgements, should those be felt to be necessary in the first
palce, is what those who were involved knew and felt at the time.

Anyone can be a self rightous paragon sat in an armchair with the benefit of 80- years
of hindsight and countlkess Wikipedia pages at their disposal.

No military discipline nor peer pressure involved there at all,

Easy Peasy !

while for the benefit of GB

>> Both the US, who having benefited from the war still had the resources,
>> and the UK took pains to ensure that the mistakes of WW1 weren't
>> repeated ; whereby no reparations of any kind were demanded.
>> In fact quite the reverse as positive efforts were made to help
>> reconstruct both countries
>> One first thing to remember is that despite outward appearances
>> the rulers of neither country may have enjoyed universal support
>> certainly during the latter stages of the war.
>> In Japan, an acquiescent Emperor who the people revered, was
>> under the control of a militaristic junta. Who they didn't necessarily
>> support themselves. The US, allegedly MacArthur in particular,
>> had the good sense to allow the Emperor to remain in place and
>> treated him with respect; rather than executing him as a war
>> criminal. Thus when a grateful Emperor explained to his people
>> that the US were "again" their friends, they all fell in behind.
>> Because it shouldn't be forgotten that Japan only embraced Western
>> values and "the modern world" after having been forced to do so
>> by the US in the shape of Commodore Matthew Perry 1853. Something
>> they were subsequently grateful for
>>
>> In Germany, many Germans had already had misgivings abort Hitler right
>> from the start. And the likely consequences of his belligerence
>> And certainly as the war progressed and defeat became unenviable
>> they feared the same fate as had befallen Germany after WW1 punitive
>> reparations. And as the fate of the Jews became more widely
>> known worldwide condemnation as well.
>> While much of the Holocaust material still showing up regularly on TV
>> was originally commissioned for showing in primitive post war German
>> Cinemas.
>> Whereas in fact, at the end of the war positive measures were taken to prevent
>> mass starvation (one of the reason for post way shortages in the UK with US
>> supplies being diverted). One of the ironies of the decline of British
>> Industry is that post war, all reconstituted German industrial concerns of
>> any kind were mandated to have union representatives on their boards who
>> *actually took part in decision making processes*, A system which survives
>> to this day. Which when combined with the traditional German technical
>> education system makes a deadly combination
>> While the Volkswagen plant which up to that stage had only produced a
>> few cars was indeed saved from destruction by a single British Army
>> Officer who realised the potential.
>> Unlike the British manufacturers famously William Rootes who visited
>> the factory but failed to see any potential in such a small car.
>> But somebody did; and the rest as they say is history.
>>
>> While back to the Japan the camera industries of both Japan, Nikon
>> Canon, Germany Leica Rollie Contax Zeiss (West) etc were either saved
>> from extinction altogether, or kick-started back into production
>> by sales to US Servicemen based in those countries,
>>
>>

bb

[GB]

On 22/12/2023 15:08, billy bookcase wrote:

>> if the victorious powers then invest millions of dollars in your country, to the
>> benefit of greedy profiteers among you?
>
> And which greedy profiteers would those be then ?

Todal can't resist his hyperbole. It's a big failing on his part, as it
diverts attention away from what might be a good point.

[billy bookcase]

"GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.invalid> wrote in message news:um49gt$1jpo7$2...@dont-email.me...

So let's just hope Todal takes your criticism in the helpful spirit
in which it was intended, and mends his ways in the future.

That's all I can say.

Or in OFSTNET terms that would be a "Room For Improvement"
I'd imagine.


bb

[The Todal]

Hyperbole? I think it's naive beyond belief to think that in the
reconstruction of Germany there were no Michelle Mones, in their
hundreds, out to grab as much profit from the situation as they could.

No, in your fantasy all the surviving Germans decided to pull together
as equals, reconstructing their country and saying prayers of thanks to
the valiant Lancaster pilots who helped save their country from the Nazi
regime.

Someone should make a film of it. If they haven't already. After all,
the good guys won.

[The Todal]

On 22/12/2023 15:08, billy bookcase wrote:
> "The Todal" <the_...@icloud.com> wrote in message
> news:kulcdd...@mid.individual.net...
>> On 22/12/2023 11:29, billy bookcase wrote:
>>> "The Todal" <the_...@icloud.com> wrote in message
>>> news:kuj348...@mid.individual.net...
>>>>
>>>> I think it is rather extraordinary that neither the Germans nor
>>>> the Japanese seem to bear a grudge against the UK for all the slaughter
>>> we carried out during the war.
>>>
>>> But why would they ?
>>
>> Because of the many deaths and life-changing injuries. Don't they count for anything
>
> They obviously didn't at the time. Quite how the shell shocked survivors wandering
> around among ithe ruins of their devestated countries would have reacted at the time,
> had they known that 80 years later some comfortably off Englishman was going
> to go into paroxysems of self righteous incredulity over the fact that they weren't
> even more bitter than he clearly still is, can only be guessed at.
>
>> if the victorious powers then invest millions of dollars in your country, to the
>> benefit of greedy profiteers among you?
>
> And which greedy profiteers would those be then ?
>
> BTW your comparison of Bonmber Command pilots with SS Guards pushing
> women and children inro gas chambers is odious beyond belief.

Oh dear. Do you have a bottle of smelling salts at hand, or maybe access
to trauma counselling?

You remind me of a certain type of dishonest politician. When people
complain that the NHS is unable to provide a proper service and has
ever-lengthening waiting lists, the politician will say "how dare you
hurt the feelings of the doctors and nurses doing their best to provide
a service to the nation".

So when I condemn the war crime of carpet-bombing cities on enemy
territories you spring to the defence of those brave Lancaster pilots
and crew, risking their lives and, after all, only obeying orders.

>
> What simply doesn't seem to have occured to you is the only thing that matters
> when making moral judgements, should those be felt to be necessary in the first
> palce, is what those who were involved knew and felt at the time.

Oh, right. They welcomed being bombed, did they? Were you there? Or have
you managed to re-live a past life using hypnosis?

>
> Anyone can be a self rightous paragon sat in an armchair with the benefit of 80- years
> of hindsight and countlkess Wikipedia pages at their disposal.
>
> No military discipline nor peer pressure involved there at all,
>
> Easy Peasy !
>

I suppose you've never actually read a history book but you've watched
all the exciting war films.

[billy bookcase]

"The Todal" <the_...@icloud.com> wrote in message

news:kum6m0...@mid.individual.net...

> On 22/12/2023 16:21, billy bookcase wrote:
>> "GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:um49gt$1jpo7$2...@dont-email.me...
>>> On 22/12/2023 15:08, billy bookcase wrote:
>>>
>>>>> if the victorious powers then invest millions of dollars in your country, to the
>>>>> benefit of greedy profiteers among you?
>>>>
>>>> And which greedy profiteers would those be then ?
>>>
>>> Todal can't resist his hyperbole. It's a big failing on his part, as it diverts
>>> attention away from what might be a good point.
>>
>> So let's just hope Todal takes your criticism in the helpful spirit
>> in which it was intended, and mends his ways in the future.
>>
>> That's all I can say.
>>
>> Or in OFSTNET terms that would be a "Room For Improvement"
>> I'd imagine.
>>
>
> Hyperbole? I think it's naive beyond belief to think that in the
> reconstruction of Germany there were no Michelle Mones, in their
> hundreds, out to grab as much profit from the situation as they
> could.

Oh Dear Me ! Michelle Mone the convenient chavette scape-goat to
distract attention away from all the Old Etonian Spivs who were
up to their arm pits in the trough.

Had you fooled though, eh ?

Anyway just name some names, or that statement qualifies
as Fantasy no 3

>
> No, in your fantasy all the surviving Germans decided to pull
> together as equals,

Er no. That's your fantasy. I never claimed any such thing.

Presumably that's fantasy no 2. Replacing your fantasy No I that all
Germans should have been eaten away by lasting bitterness and
resentment.

> reconstructing their country and saying prayers of thanks to
> the valiant Lancaster pilots who helped save their country from the Nazi regime.

Oh dear ! There is rather more truth in that claim that you appear to
realise. Once Germany's defeat seemed inevitable to many Germans,
who finally came to realise that they were being ruled by a
madman who would never accept defeat - as indeed he didn't
they were praying for the war to be brought to end *by whatever
means possible" although preferably not by the Russians

The German War: A Nation Under Arms, 1939–45 Paperback – 1 Sept. 2016
by Nicholas Stargardt (Author)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/German-War-Nation-Under-1939-45/dp/009953987X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=25GDS1APE1TVN&keywords=%22the+German+War%22&qid=1703274709&sprefix=the+german+war+%2Caps%2C2227&sr=8-1

Why not buy it for yourself and find out ?

>
> Someone should make a film of it. If they haven't already. After
> all, the good guys won.

In fact 44% of your "good guys" never won anything, as they were killed
in action

I'm sure there's a wikipedia page on the subject somewhere..


bb

[GB]

On 22/12/2023 19:34, The Todal wrote:
> On 22/12/2023 16:21, billy bookcase wrote:
>> "GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:um49gt$1jpo7$2...@dont-email.me...
>>> On 22/12/2023 15:08, billy bookcase wrote:
>>>
>>>>> if the victorious powers then invest millions of dollars in your
>>>>> country, to the
>>>>> benefit of greedy profiteers among you?
>>>>
>>>> And which greedy profiteers would those be then ?
>>>
>>> Todal can't resist his hyperbole. It's a big failing on his part, as
>>> it diverts
>>> attention away from what might be a good point.
>>
>> So let's just hope Todal takes your criticism in the helpful spirit
>> in which it was intended, and mends his ways in the future.
>>
>> That's all I can say.
>>
>> Or in OFSTNET terms that would be a "Room For Improvement"
>> I'd imagine.
>>
>
> Hyperbole? I think it's naive beyond belief to think that in the
> reconstruction of Germany there were no Michelle Mones, in their
> hundreds, out to grab as much profit from the situation as they could.

I didn't think that particular point about people profiting from
reconstruction was wrong. However, you made it 'greedy profiteers',
which is hyperbole, unless you regard anybody who makes a profit from
anything as a 'greedy profiteer'.

It doesn't matter, except you have diverted the conversation away from
the valid point you were making and into a blind alley about greedy
profiteers.

[billy bookcase]

"The Todal" <the_...@icloud.com> wrote in message

news:kum7p3...@mid.individual.net...

I believe the concept of "Total War" has been explained to you before ?

So that rather than trauma counselling, in your case perhaps you
should maybe consider getting treatment for short-term memory loss.

World War Two was a "Total War". Where war was waged not just on
the battlefield, but on the entire productive capacity of the enemy .
The productive capacity to produce arms and ammunition and the
power and materials and transport facilities to bring this
about.

As both sides realised this, it would obviously have been
foolish to concentrate all their productive capacity in
specific areas where it could easily be destroyed.

So it was spread out.

Now clearly you appear to be under the impression that
the RAF had intimate up-to-date knowledge of the location
of all this productive capacity. When in fact of course they
didn't As arial photographs can just as well show empty
buildings.

It was always of course an unfortunate side effect of
all bombing that it would terrorise the civilian population
at first at least and this was regarded as useful side effect
in undermining morale, While area bombing was seen as the
only way of being certain of destroying productive
capacity. The fact that it was inevitable that large
numbers of innocent civilians would be killed in the provokes
was simply unavoidable

Whereas murdering children by shoving them into gas
chambers simply so that they won't be around to take
revenge when there are further millions of Jewish
People world wide who will still bear witness to this,
is not only the epitome of inhumanity but of pointless
stupidity as well.

> I suppose you've never actually read a history book but you've
> watched all the exciting war films.

There are very few if any "exciting" war films. Because most
viewers, myself included, but unlike you it would seem, already
know the result.

Maybe it's yourself who should be reading all these books.


bb

[Fredxx]

On 22/12/2023 15:08, billy bookcase wrote:

<snip>

> BTW your comparison of Bonmber Command pilots with SS Guards pushing
> women and children inro gas chambers is odious beyond belief.

Are you suggesting that if the SS had bombed the concentration camps
from a great height because of the odd terrorist lurking, that would
have been ok?

[billy bookcase]

"Fredxx" <fre...@spam.invalid> wrote in message news:um52sc$1o0ig$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 22/12/2023 15:08, billy bookcase wrote:
>
> <snip>
>

>> BTW your comparison of Bomber Command pilots with SS Guards pushing
>> women and children into gas chambers is odious beyond belief.

>
> Are you suggesting that if the SS had bombed the concentration camps
> from a great height because of the odd terrorist lurking, that would
> have been ok?
>

That's a very silly question. Because had you looked it up on wikipedia
you would have discovered that the SS weren't trained to fly planes.
The clue is in the name, Schutzstaffel, or Protection Squads.
Flying planes was the job of the Luftwaffe or "Air Weapon".
So even if they managed to get to the end of the runway they
would probably have crashed on take-off.

Didn't they teach you anything at school ?

However, given you're clearly so concerned with ethical dilemmas
my question is "If they ever show "The Wolf of Wall Street" on
terrestrial TV should they cut out the dwarf throwing sequence ?
Or if they already have, did they ? As I didn't see it*
After all the dwarf was well paid by the Wall street traders
who hired him, probably the most money he would ever
make in one day.

So if you were a dwarf, would you be upset if that was ever
shown on TV ?. Although not by the BBC obviously.


bb

* £1 in a charity shop near you.

[billy bookcase]

"Ottavio Caruso" <ottavio2006...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:um68lm$20jg1$1...@dont-email.me...
> Am 22/12/2023 um 23:56 schrieb Jon Ribbens:
>> On 2023-12-22, Ottavio Caruso <ottavio2006...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Am 22/12/2023 um 12:01 schrieb billy bookcase:
>>>> "Ottavio Caruso" <ottavio2006...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:um3osg$1hdi7$2...@dont-email.me...
>>>>> Another little details is that Italians, fascists or not, were not
>>>>> known for kidnapping Allies' civilians or beheading them, at least
>>>>> not after 1943.
>>>>
>>>> There would have been little point in any case; as smartphones and
>>>> Youtube didn't exist in 1943.
>>>
>>> What?
>>
>> He's saying that fear and intimidation only works if there is some
>> mechanism for the general public to find out about the frightful and
>> intimidating things you have done. Which is valid to some extent, but
>> the equivalent technology of the day was Esso gas stations, which
>> weren't *entirely* ineffective.
>>
>
> I would have expected the "there were no iPhones in 1943" only from a Gen Z.

Ah right ! An Appletard* to boot, on top of everything else !

bb

* Before somebody has to come along and explain that one to you as
well, I only mentioned *smartphones*. Not iPhones upon which you are
apparently so fixated. Many of which perform essentially the same
function as iPhones but cost only half as much; although in some
regrettable instances all of 0.00001mm thicker.

[Fredxx]

On 23/12/2023 09:09, billy bookcase wrote:
> "Fredxx" <fre...@spam.invalid> wrote in message news:um52sc$1o0ig$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On 22/12/2023 15:08, billy bookcase wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> BTW your comparison of Bomber Command pilots with SS Guards pushing
>>> women and children into gas chambers is odious beyond belief.
>>
>> Are you suggesting that if the SS had bombed the concentration camps
>> from a great height because of the odd terrorist lurking, that would
>> have been ok?
>>
>
> That's a very silly question. Because had you looked it up on wikipedia
> you would have discovered that the SS weren't trained to fly planes.

Which you failed to answer. Lets assume there was some SS who were
suitably trained.

[Spike]

I suspect that Todal’s hyperbole is designed to shift attention away from
the discussion of Hamas’ atrocities and onto a group of people who now
can’t answer back regarding the policies they were obliged to implement,
because they are dead.

--
Spike

[Roger Hayter]

What is there to "discuss" about Hamas' atrocities? They happened, they were
reprehensible, and Hamas is not in a position to repeat them on any scale.
What more can be said?

--
Roger Hayter

[Fredxx]

I guess that depends on whether you think state sanctioned atrocities
are indeed atrocities or simply an acceptable consequence of retribution
and/or genocide?

Perhaps you think numbers don't count, unless of course they're Israeli
deaths?

[billy bookcase]

"Fredxx" <fre...@spam.invalid> wrote in message news:um6pnp$23cg4$1...@dont-email.me...

But why would the SS have neeeded to waste money on planes or bombs.?

They'd happily murder anyone regardless of whether they were terrorists or not.

Which is very easy when you think about it. Just cut off their food supply
and starve them all to death.


bb

[The Todal]

On 23/12/2023 19:25, Spike wrote:

I suspect that Israel's hyperbole about Hamas atrocities - which did
indeed take place on 7 October - are a rather inept attempt to distract
the world from Israel's barbaric massacres of ordinary Palestinian
civilians on a daily basis from October to the present day, and the
pretence that these massacres are an unfortunate necessity and can all
be blamed on Hamas.

If the "people who can't answer back" are those who ordered the bombing
of cities in WW2, then there is no need for them to answer back. They
were engaged in a real war, not the persecution of the inhabitants of a
tiny plot of land.

[The Todal]

Well, now you are comparing Israel with the Nazis. Well done. You got
there in the end.

[Spike]

What is there to discuss about Israeli actions in Gaza? They are happening,
they are regrettable, and the reasons for them, namely Hamas’ atrocities,
are unlikely to be repeated. What more need be said?

--
Spike

[billy bookcase]

"The Todal" <the_...@icloud.com> wrote in message

news:kup4k6...@mid.individual.net...

Do pay attention.

Why do you think Israel is wasting all that money on tanks, and
guns, and ammunition, and risking the lives of their own personnel ?

And why is the UN and others calling for a ceasefire ?

> Well done. You got there in the end.

Hint: In order to successfully adopt a condescending attitude, it
can help to actually know what you're talking about.



bb

[Jon Ribbens]

Do you notice how you had to change tense when adapting Roger's words?

[Fredxx]

On 23/12/2023 20:40, billy bookcase wrote:
> "Fredxx" <fre...@spam.invalid> wrote in message news:um6pnp$23cg4$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On 23/12/2023 09:09, billy bookcase wrote:
>>> "Fredxx" <fre...@spam.invalid> wrote in message news:um52sc$1o0ig$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>> On 22/12/2023 15:08, billy bookcase wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> BTW your comparison of Bomber Command pilots with SS Guards pushing
>>>>> women and children into gas chambers is odious beyond belief.
>>>>
>>>> Are you suggesting that if the SS had bombed the concentration camps
>>>> from a great height because of the odd terrorist lurking, that would
>>>> have been ok?
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's a very silly question. Because had you looked it up on wikipedia
>>> you would have discovered that the SS weren't trained to fly planes.
>>
>> Which you failed to answer. Lets assume there was some SS who were suitably trained.
>
> But why would the SS have neeeded to waste money on planes or bombs.?

Quite, I guess the IDF are better armed.

> They'd happily murder anyone regardless of whether they were terrorists or not.

We seem to be talking about the IDF here? They seem happy to shoot their
own when waving a white flag.

> Which is very easy when you think about it. Just cut off their food supply
> and starve them all to death.

That is what is happening in Gaza. It might just work. Now I wonder
where the Israeli's got that idea from.

[Roger Hayter]

You seem to miss, apart from whataboutery, the difference between something
that has happened and something that is happening.

--
Roger Hayter

[GB]

On 23/12/2023 22:16, The Todal wrote:

>
> I suspect that Israel's hyperbole

Pot kettle etc. Surely, if you have a valid point, there's absolutely
no need to dress it up?

[GB]

On 23/12/2023 22:17, The Todal wrote:

> Nazis.

Well, it is quite a long thread, so it's about time. Anyone want to
mention Brexit? Ooops!

[Spike]

Did you notice that Hamas’ atrocities of the 7th October are in the past,
and the Israeli response to that is currently ongoing?

--
Spike

[Spike]

You seem to miss, due to a partial dismissiveness, the fact that history is
continuous and not a series of disconnected events. If history comprised
the latter, once the Israelis have defeated Hamas, we could all shrug our
shoulders about the death and destruction, and follow your line of “it’s
all in the past, what more need be said?”.

--
Spike

[Jeff Gaines]

Since you mention it something we were unable to do as members of the EU:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12897211

Need to move on now and ensure we don't use cruel methods of killing
animals nor import meat from countries that do.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.
(Ken Olson, president Digital Equipment, 1977)

[billy bookcase]

"Fredxx" <fre...@spam.invalid> wrote in message news:um7tvr$2951m$1...@dont-email.me...

Well it wasn't from the Nazis

The starvation in the concentration camps wasn't deliberate policy if only
because of the hygene problems it would create, Why do you think they
built crematoria which matched the output of the gas chambers ?

The starvation resulted from a simple shortage of food. The reason Stalin
was so surprised by the timing of Barbarossa*, was because he was aware
of the food shortages this would produce in Germany who he'd previously
helped supply. In war the first food priority is first line troops then elite
civilians and workers then reserve troops then ordinary citizens
prioritising children slave labour allied prisoners of war and last of all
inmates of concentration camps. The food had simply run out.


bb

* When he finally realised his mistake Stalin holed up in his dacha
incommunicado for a couple of days. When a Politburo delegation
eventually paid him a visit, Molotov, Kaganovich, Beria etc he
seriously thought they'd come to arrest him, put him on trial,
and shoot him.




>

[Fredxx]

A valid point was made, but you chose to snip the bits you didn't like
to read. As you say there was no need to dress the valid point up.

The bit you snipped,

[Jon Ribbens]

Well done! It's a small step, but I'll take the win. Now you take a
moment to think about the significance of that fact in relation to
the remarks by you quoted above.

[GB]

On 24/12/2023 13:59, Fredxx wrote:
> On 24/12/2023 09:05, GB wrote:
>> On 23/12/2023 22:16, The Todal wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I suspect that Israel's hyperbole
>>
>> Pot kettle etc.  Surely, if you have a valid point, there's absolutely
>> no need to dress it up?
>
> A valid point was made, but you chose to snip the bits you didn't like
> to read. As you say there was no need to dress the valid point up.

I snipped the hyperbole. Besides that, the Israelis are merely doing
what Todal previously insisted they should do.

[GB]

On 24/12/2023 15:58, Jon Ribbens wrote:


> Well done! It's a small step, but I'll take the win. Now you take a
> moment to think about the significance of that fact in relation to
> the remarks by you quoted above.

Without discussing what the response should have been, do you think that
Israel should have done nothing at all in response to the 7 October attack?

[Fredxx]

On 24/12/2023 16:11, GB wrote:
> On 24/12/2023 13:59, Fredxx wrote:
>> On 24/12/2023 09:05, GB wrote:
>>> On 23/12/2023 22:16, The Todal wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I suspect that Israel's hyperbole
>>>
>>> Pot kettle etc.  Surely, if you have a valid point, there's
>>> absolutely no need to dress it up?
>>
>> A valid point was made, but you chose to snip the bits you didn't like
>> to read. As you say there was no need to dress the valid point up.
>
> I snipped the hyperbole.

There was no hyperbole, just words you didn't want to read.

[GB]

Massacre is an obvious hyperbole. Similarly, Todal has misused terms
like carpet bombing. Everybody agrees that large numbers of civilians
are dying and being injured in Gaza. Far too many, in my view. Hyperbole
doesn't add to that important point; it distracts from it.

[The Todal]

That's a very IDF thing to say. Either mass slaughter or do nothing -
anything in between is off the table.

[Roger Hayter]

20,000 plus injured plus buried in rubble out of 2 million is pretty
impressive as massacres go, about equivalent to about 100,000 Londoners, with
an even higher ratio of children?

Plus the destruction of all hospital facilities and most food supply. I think
it is rapidly approaching a world class massacre. Sudan and Yemen (both
massacres we and the US are also involved in) probably rival the numbers, but
out of a much bigger population over a much longer period.

--
Roger Hayter

[The Todal]

You are doing your level best to distract from what the world sees as a
massacre of ordinary civilians in Gaza.

I don't know what your motive is. Perhaps you know some Jews who are
good friends of yours and who expect everyone to support Israel
uncritically. Being on the side of the barbarians is really not a good
look for you.

[The Todal]

On 24/12/2023 10:02, billy bookcase wrote:
> "Fredxx" <fre...@spam.invalid> wrote in message news:um7tvr$2951m$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On 23/12/2023 20:40, billy bookcase wrote:
>>
>>> Which is very easy when you think about it. Just cut off their food supply
>>> and starve them all to death.
>>
>> That is what is happening in Gaza. It might just work. Now I wonder where the Israeli's
>> got that idea from.
>
> Well it wasn't from the Nazis
>
> The starvation in the concentration camps wasn't deliberate policy if only
> because of the hygene problems it would create, Why do you think they
> built crematoria which matched the output of the gas chambers ?

1. The starvation in the concentration camps was, indeed, deliberate
policy. To say otherwise is effectively neonazi holocaust denial.

2. The crematoria did not match the output of the gas chambers. Many
corpses were buried in fields, then subsequently dug up and burned in
fields.

>
> The starvation resulted from a simple shortage of food.

Untrue.

[GB]

I asked whether Israel should have done nothing at all - which is my
view. I am clearly in a minority, and I just wondered how much of a
minority?

Incidentally, how could you possibly have interpreted the question I
asked in the way you did?

[GB]

On 24/12/2023 17:40, Roger Hayter wrote:

>> Massacre is an obvious hyperbole. Similarly, Todal has misused terms
>> like carpet bombing. Everybody agrees that large numbers of civilians
>> are dying and being injured in Gaza. Far too many, in my view. Hyperbole
>> doesn't add to that important point; it distracts from it.
>
> 20,000 plus injured plus buried in rubble out of 2 million is pretty
> impressive as massacres go, about equivalent to about 100,000 Londoners, with
> an even higher ratio of children?

Are you saying the ratio of children killed is higher than the ratio of
children in the Gaza population? Or are you simply saying that the
proportion of children in the population is higher in Gaza than London?
Whilst that's almost certainly true, why do you mention it?

> Plus the destruction of all hospital facilities and most food supply.

You are just illustrating my point. You claim that all hospitals are
destroyed, whereas WHO say 25% are functioning. That's a serious point,
so why muddy the waters by getting it wrong?

https://abcnews.go.com/International/functional-hospitals-northern-gaza-9-left-south/story?id=105867484

Israel has opened their border for food supplies, Now, all we need is
brave people to drive the lorries in the middle of a firefight.

[GB]

On 24/12/2023 18:11, The Todal wrote:

> You are doing your level best to distract from what the world sees as a
> massacre of ordinary civilians in Gaza.
>
> I don't know what your motive is. Perhaps you know some Jews who are
> good friends of yours and who expect everyone to support Israel
> uncritically. Being on the side of the barbarians is really not a good
> look for you.

I'm simply suggesting that sticking to the plain, unadorned truth is a
sensible course. Why would anyone object to that?

And, why does my being in favour of truth mean I am taking sides?

[billy bookcase]

"The Todal" <the_...@icloud.com> wrote in message

news:kurc62...@mid.individual.net...

> On 24/12/2023 10:02, billy bookcase wrote:
>> "Fredxx" <fre...@spam.invalid> wrote in message news:um7tvr$2951m$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> On 23/12/2023 20:40, billy bookcase wrote:
>>>
>>>> Which is very easy when you think about it. Just cut off their food supply
>>>> and starve them all to death.
>>>
>>> That is what is happening in Gaza. It might just work. Now I wonder where the
>>> Israeli's
>>> got that idea from.
>>
>> Well it wasn't from the Nazis
>>
>> The starvation in the concentration camps wasn't deliberate policy if only
>> because of the hygene problems it would create, Why do you think they
>> built crematoria which matched the output of the gas chambers ?
>
> 1. The starvation in the concentration camps was, indeed, deliberate
> policy. To say otherwise is effectively neonazi holocaust denial.

Do you really have the knowledge and emotional development of an
immature 15 year old ? Or, as I am increasingly coming to suspect,
in this and other instances, is this simply a sustained troll
on your part ?

>
> 2. The crematoria did not match the output of the gas chambers.
> Many corpses were buried in fields, then subsequently dug up and
> burned in fields.

Ooops!

So you admit that hygiene was regarded as such a big problem that they
were reduced to burying corpses in fields.

Now please explain how, if mass starvation was a deliberate policy
they intended to deal with those corpses ? Search out bigger fields ?
With the Russians only miles away ?

How do you propose, that in order to prevent mass starvation in the
camps in Eastern Poland in the latter days of the War and in the face
of the oncoming Russian onslaught the Germans should have secured
sufficient food supplies to the camps; more especially when quite
possibly much of the surrounding transport infrastructure lay in
ruins* ?


bb

* Food supplies were a big factor in both Word Wars. Food shortages
resulting in part from Britain's successful naval blockade were a big
factor in the demoralisation both at home and at the front which led
Germany to sue for peace.

[Jon Ribbens]

I would imagine he didn't anticipate that your opinion was that any
action at all by Israel would have been a mistake. I certainly didn't
- it is extremely surprising in the light of everything you have said
previously. In the absence of that information, there was no other way
to interpret your question except as a tedious appeal to the fallacy of
the excluded middle.

So to answer what you now seem to have meant by your question: I don't
have an opinion on that. It's up to Israel if they should have done
something or not. I certainly didn't *expect* them to do nothing.

[The Todal]

You seem to have accepted uncritically the lies of the holocaust deniers
so you are either a holocaust denier or an ignorant fuckwit. It isn't my
job to give you an education.

[billy bookcase]

"GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.invalid> wrote in message news:uma0sf$2mbps$2...@dont-email.me...

> On 24/12/2023 18:11, The Todal wrote:
>
>> You are doing your level best to distract from what the world sees
>> as a massacre of ordinary civilians in Gaza.
>>
>> I don't know what your motive is. Perhaps you know some Jews who are
>> good friends of yours and who expect everyone to support Israel
>> uncritically. Being on the side of the barbarians is really not a
>> good look for you.
>
>
> I'm simply suggesting that sticking to the plain, unadorned truth is a
> sensible course. Why would anyone object to that?

Because of the implication that you somehow have privileged access
to the plain unadorned truth which is clearly denied everybody else.

Something which very few if any truly objective observers would ever
claim.

Simply because it invites the very simple question "how exactly do
you know this"

Politicians, and news organisations by their very nature are expected
to know more than they can ever in fact know. And so all they can do
if they want to get elected or stay in business is to cover selected
topics and incidents and present them in a way which will re-inforce
the prejudices of their intended electors, or audiences, and readerships.
But nobody would ever claim that this coverage represents the whole truth.
Its highly selective so as not to confuse and alienate the intended
audience as reality is simply too messy to fit into news bulletins

In short its mostly *stories* with readily identifiable heroes and
villains.

So the question would then be, where are *you* getting *your*
information from ?

And equally important *why* do you think they are they telling you
this ? And why would you necessarily believe them ?



bb

[billy bookcase]

"The Todal" <the_...@icloud.com> wrote in message

news:kuridm...@mid.individual.net...

I've already explained to you about the crematoria and the gas chambers.
Do holocaust deniers even acknowledge that such existed ?

> so you are either a holocaust denier or an ignorant fuckwit. It isn't
> my job to give you an education.

And so the question posed above remains

Do you really have the knowledge and emotional development of an
immature 15 year old ? Or, as I am increasingly coming to suspect,
in this and other instances, is this simply a sustained troll
on your part ?

Quite frankly as you've now been reduced to vulgar abuse and
incoherence I'm beginning to strongly suggest the former.

Or rather, that you're starting to revert.

Now I'm sure that up to now you've led a very useful and productive life
and been a very useful member of society and the community. But possibly
now is the time that you should maybe seek professional help with your
condition. Being so easily reduced to spluttering incoherence could be
a first sign of something altogether more serious; and so as suggested
above I strongly advise you to get help.

You know it makes sense.

Happy Christmas


bb

[Pancho]

The Holocaust is a religion. There is no point discussing it as a
historical event. If you stray from the exact official dogma, you are a
heretic, a denier.

Imagine an argument between a catholic and a protestant, they may only
differ on some small doctrinal point, but the argument will inevitably
descend into one accusing the other of being an unbeliever.

[Jeff Gaines]

On 25/12/2023 in message <umbhr9$309gi$1...@dont-email.me> Pancho wrote:

>The Holocaust is a religion. There is no point discussing it as a
>historical event. If you stray from the exact official dogma, you are a
>heretic, a denier.

And there were about 17 million victims (although the Wikipedia page seems
to be in dispute):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK

This is as bad as it can get, but don't bet on it

[GB]

On 24/12/2023 20:21, Jon Ribbens wrote:

>> I asked whether Israel should have done nothing at all - which is my
>> view. I am clearly in a minority, and I just wondered how much of a
>> minority?
>>
>> Incidentally, how could you possibly have interpreted the question I
>> asked in the way you did?
>
> I would imagine he didn't anticipate that your opinion was that any
> action at all by Israel would have been a mistake. I certainly didn't
> - it is extremely surprising in the light of everything you have said
> previously. In the absence of that information, there was no other way
> to interpret your question except as a tedious appeal to the fallacy of
> the excluded middle.

I have repeatedly said that in threads that Todal has participated in.
So, he seems to have an extraordinarily poor memory.

Maybe, he should get himself checked out, as Donepezil, Galantamine and
Rivastigmine are available in the UK, but they have to be taken early in
the disease to be effective.

[Spike]

I take it that you can’t see that taking one statement and turning it round
so that it benefits the other party to the issue, shows how thin the
original was in concept.

--
Spike

[GB]

On 25/12/2023 09:35, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 25/12/2023 in message <umbhr9$309gi$1...@dont-email.me> Pancho wrote:
>
>> The Holocaust is a religion. There is no point discussing it as a
>> historical event. If you stray from the exact official dogma, you are
>> a heretic, a denier.
>
> And there were about 17 million victims (although the Wikipedia page
> seems to be in dispute):
>
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
>

In WW2 70–85 million people perished. I really don't see how to
apportion them to 'holocaust' or 'non-holocaust'?

Does it matter whether people were starved to death deliberately in
concentration camps, or inadvertently through famine in their homes? The
outcome was the same.

[Roger Hayter]

It comes down to the difference in culpability between Eichmann and Churchill.
I really do think that, while objectively you are quite right, most people
find remote bombing schemes less culpable than locking people up, starving and
gassing them. We are emotional creatures.

--
Roger Hayter

[The Todal]

On 25/12/2023 10:17, GB wrote:
> On 24/12/2023 20:21, Jon Ribbens wrote:
>
>>> I asked whether Israel should have done nothing at all - which is my
>>> view. I am clearly in a minority, and I just wondered how much of a
>>> minority?
>>>
>>> Incidentally, how could you possibly have interpreted the question I
>>> asked in the way you did?
>>
>> I would imagine he didn't anticipate that your opinion was that any
>> action at all by Israel would have been a mistake. I certainly didn't
>> - it is extremely surprising in the light of everything you have said
>> previously. In the absence of that information, there was no other way
>> to interpret your question except as a tedious appeal to the fallacy of
>> the excluded middle.
>
> I have repeatedly said that in threads that Todal has participated in.
> So, he seems to have an extraordinarily poor memory.
>
> Maybe, he should get himself checked out, as Donepezil, Galantamine and
> Rivastigmine are available in the UK, but they have to be taken early in
> the disease to be effective.
>

Maybe you are exceptionally poor at making yourself understood, but
blaming others makes you feel better.

When replying to posts, consider whether saying nothing at all might be
better than giving the impression that you have a limited grasp of world
affairs and ethics.

[The Todal]

On 25/12/2023 17:29, Roger Hayter wrote:
> On 25 Dec 2023 at 12:10:30 GMT, "GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 25/12/2023 09:35, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>> On 25/12/2023 in message <umbhr9$309gi$1...@dont-email.me> Pancho wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Holocaust is a religion. There is no point discussing it as a
>>>> historical event. If you stray from the exact official dogma, you are
>>>> a heretic, a denier.

It depends entirely on how far you stray, what you believe to be the
dogma, and whether you are able to cite reliable evidence.

>>>
>>> And there were about 17 million victims (although the Wikipedia page
>>> seems to be in dispute):
>>>
>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
>>>
>>
>>
>> In WW2 70–85 million people perished. I really don't see how to
>> apportion them to 'holocaust' or 'non-holocaust'?
>>
>> Does it matter whether people were starved to death deliberately in
>> concentration camps, or inadvertently through famine in their homes? The
>> outcome was the same.
>
> It comes down to the difference in culpability between Eichmann and Churchill.
> I really do think that, while objectively you are quite right, most people
> find remote bombing schemes less culpable than locking people up, starving and
> gassing them. We are emotional creatures.
>

I think gassing them - or herding them together and shooting them so
that they fall into trenches - definitely crosses a line, compared to
imprisoning them, starving them and leaving their illnesses untreated in
camps so that they die of starvation or typhus. In the latter case one
can pretend that it was just a matter of available resources in wartime.

[GB]

On 25/12/2023 22:05, The Todal wrote:

> Maybe you are exceptionally poor at making yourself understood

I have been crystal clear on that, but it didn't grab your attention.
For the future, the correct course of action is illustrated here:

https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/jmnet/koreajoongangdaily/_data/photo/2014/06/10204823.jpg

[Jeff Gaines]

Wow, there is arse licking and arse licking!

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK

Those are my principles – and if you don’t like them, well, I have
others.
(Groucho Marx)

[Roger Hayter]

Unfortunately, I believe they left detailed notes on the amount of food
required to get a few weeks work out of slave labourers at minimal cost while
being reassured that most would die in time for the next import of slaves.
Death was certainly not an accident of food shortages in this case!


--
Roger Hayter

[Jon Ribbens]

Aw, and now a step backwards. So, consider that it is entirely obvious
that that is what you were trying to do, and put that together with my
response to it noting that you had to change the tense, and I think it
was obvious all along to everyone except you that my point was that you
had failed in your attempt.

[Roger Hayter]

Hello, Spike.

--
Roger Hayter

[Roger Hayter]

Forwarding message from uk.net.news.moderation.
Originally by: Spike <aero....@mail.com>,
Original date: 25/12/2023 12:02
Subject: Re: Hamas
***

The point you appear to miss is that, while you can't change what has
happened, it would be possible to stop what is continuing to happen.
Seems a bit self-evident to me.
The rights and wrongs of it are another issue.
--
Roger Hayter

[Pancho]

On 25/12/2023 22:13, The Todal wrote:
> On 25/12/2023 17:29, Roger Hayter wrote:
>> On 25 Dec 2023 at 12:10:30 GMT, "GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 25/12/2023 09:35, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>>> On 25/12/2023 in message <umbhr9$309gi$1...@dont-email.me> Pancho wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The Holocaust is a religion. There is no point discussing it as a
>>>>> historical event. If you stray from the exact official dogma, you are
>>>>> a heretic, a denier.
>
> It depends entirely on how far you stray, what you believe to be the
> dogma, and whether you are able to cite reliable evidence.
>

No it doesn't.

1, The point about deliverately starving people or not is minor, in
context.

2, It doesn't matter how good the evidence is. If the evidence is hard
to refute, it will be claimed that it is offensive, or insensitive,
shouldn't be discussed.

If the person making the claim was important, their character will be
assasinated. Julian Assange, for instance. Or: Corbyn, Abbott, Jackie
Walker, and now Claudine Gay. The pattern is the same.

[GB]

On 26/12/2023 20:21, Pancho wrote:

> If the person making the claim was important, their character will be
> assasinated. Julian Assange, for instance.

I'm afraid that I have been totally taken in by the character
assassination of Julian Assange.

[Jon Ribbens]

It helped that he conspired with them to assassinate his own character.

[Pancho]

Yes, character assasination clearly does work, does convince a lot of
people. I'm not sure which bit convinced you, but alleging sexual
offences is a perenial favourite, because of the low requirement for
evidential support.

The point is that opponents will attack you in ways unrelated to the
thing they disagree with you doing. It is not enough to be right.

[Spike]

What I failed in was the putting across in simple enough terms the
questionable expedient that has been expressed concerning this current
unpleasantness in the Middle East, that enabled the convenient dismissal of
one side’s atrocities.

--
Spike