"Meta" posts...

[Judith]

.... are allowed in URCM if they toe the Wacko line:



"Please moderators, none of this politics, and the "Road Tax" thing is
well-worn; as bad as the H*lm*t thingy, that isn't allowed."

[Percy Picacity]

I noticed that, being one of the offenders, but might it not have been
whitelisted?

--

Percy Picacity

[URCM Monitor]

On Sat, 4 May 2013 23:13:58 +0100, Percy Picacity
<k...@under.the.invalid> wrote:

> I noticed that, being one of the offenders, but might ite not have
been
> whitelisted?

Much like the Aesop's fable of the man, his son, and the donkey on
the way to market, it just shows that you cannot please some no
matter what one does. Of course, there is a difference between the
posters who are truly interested in the topics and tone for which the
group was formed (the instant post being exactly the sort of internal
regulation that preserves such, echoing the type of fraternal
restaraint found in ye shed), and the trolls who are suffused with
bile and spite - to wit: we are actually going somewhere, in the
company of the like-minded and convivial, while the trolls dare not
leave their sub-pontine hovel and can only mumble imprecations and
mutter amongst themselves at the percieved faults of others, seeing
the imaginary mote but never the beam.

[Percy Picacity]

On 2013-05-05 05:50:10 +0000, URCM Monitor said:

> On Sat, 4 May 2013 23:13:58 +0100, Percy Picacity
> <k...@under.the.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I noticed that, being one of the offenders, but might ite not have
> been
>> whitelisted?
>
> Much like the Aesop's fable of the man, his son, and the donkey on the
> way to market, it just shows that you cannot please some no matter what
> one does. Of course, there is a difference between the posters who are
> truly interested in the topics and tone for which the group was formed
> (the instant post being exactly the sort of internal regulation that
> preserves such, echoing the type of fraternal restaraint found in ye
> shed),

Rubbish. It was a stupid ill-tempered whine about a thread which
started off with the subject of an election address beocming political!
And clearly off-topic on the basis the moderators have set by numerous
decisions.

> and the trolls who are suffused with bile and spite - to wit: we are
> actually going somewhere, in the company of the like-minded and
> convivial, while the trolls dare not leave their sub-pontine hovel and
> can only mumble imprecations and mutter amongst themselves at the
> percieved faults of others, seeing the imaginary mote but never the
> beam.

--

Percy Picacity

[Ophelia]

"Percy Picacity" <k...@under.the.invalid> wrote in message
news:6i1s27....@news.alt.net...

What is a 'meta' post?

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

[Judith]

On Sat, 4 May 2013 23:13:58 +0100, Percy Picacity <k...@under.the.invalid>
wrote:

No - it was manually approved according to the logs.

A moderator read the post and concluded that it was OK.

[Judith]

I think you may be mentally ill.

[Percy Picacity]

Well I agree it was a bit of perverse decision then, especially if they
blocked contrary views. But I doubt anyone bothered to comment, as
probably the thread was drifting to an end anyway.

--

Percy Picacity

[Percy Picacity]

I thought it was brilliant. Almost a Henry Williamson pastiche: a
lyrical defence of urcm as a piece of bygone England. Being gradually
destroyed by the manufacturing classes.

--

Percy Picacity

[Steve Walker]

"Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote in message
news:aumsg1...@mid.individual.net...

> What is a 'meta' post?

What's a meta, you eh?

[Ophelia]

"Steve Walker" <spam...@beeb.net> wrote in message
news:km63sj$ke7$1...@dont-email.me...

Gotta no respect?

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

[Tim Jackson]

On Sun, 5 May 2013 12:00:27 +0100, Ophelia wrote...

> What is a 'meta' post?

Stronger then a wooden one, but it might go rusty.

--
Tim Jackson
ne...@timjackson.invalid
(Change '.invalid' to '.plus.com' to reply direct)

[Ophelia]

"Tim Jackson" <ne...@timjackson.invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.2bf0a93eb...@text.usenet.plus.net...

> On Sun, 5 May 2013 12:00:27 +0100, Ophelia wrote...
>
>> What is a 'meta' post?
>
> Stronger then a wooden one, but it might go rusty.

;o)

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

[Steve Walker]

"Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote in message

news:auniqe...@mid.individual.net...

>
>
> "Steve Walker" <spam...@beeb.net> wrote in message
> news:km63sj$ke7$1...@dont-email.me...
>>
>> "Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:aumsg1...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>> What is a 'meta' post?
>>
>> What's a meta, you eh?
>
> Gotta no respect?

Altogether now..............

[Ophelia]

"Steve Walker" <spam...@beeb.net> wrote in message

news:km86g0$c1h$1...@dont-email.me...

lol So, after all that, are you going to tell me what a 'meta post' is?

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

[Jon Ribbens]

On 2013-05-06, Ophelia <Oph...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote:
> lol So, after all that, are you going to tell me what a 'meta post' is?

2. With sense 'beyond, above, at a higher level'.
a.
(a) Prefixed to the name of a subject or discipline to denote
another which deals with ulterior issues in the same field, or which
raises questions about the nature of the original discipline and its
methods, procedures, and assumptions.
b. Chiefly Logic and Linguistics. Prefixed to various terms to denote
something of a second-order or more fundamental kind, esp. a
construct, method, classification, etc., which is concerned with the
underlying principles of a system, or applies to the whole of a
system.

So in a group about, for example, the discussion of bicycling, talking
about bicycles is on-topic, whereas talking about talking about
bicycling is meta. For example, discussion in a moderated group of the
moderation policy of that group is meta. Some groups' charters may
allow discussion of the moderation policy in the group, and some may
disallow it. Discussion in the group of whether or not meta posts
should be allowed in the group is also meta.

[Percy Picacity]

A post about posting rather than about the subject of the group, e.g. a
post about moderation.

--

Percy Picacity

[Andy Leighton]

A post about posts, or spreading it a bit wider meta-discussion - a
discussion about the discussion (or discussions in general). The usage of
the prefix meta like this goes back many decades but it was widely
popularised by Hofstadter in his books Godel, Escher, Bach and Metamagical
Themas. It is now accepted as fairly standard English usage.

--
Andy Leighton => an...@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

[Ophelia]

"Jon Ribbens" <jon+u...@unequivocal.co.uk> wrote in message
news:slrnkofd0n.g...@snowy.squish.net...

Thanks very much, Jon:)

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

[Ophelia]

"Percy Picacity" <k...@under.the.invalid> wrote in message

news:6i51nr....@news.alt.net...

Thanks, Percy, I understand it now:)
--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

[Ophelia]

"Andy Leighton" <an...@azaal.plus.com> wrote in message
news:slrnkofdda...@azaal.plus.com...

> On Mon, 6 May 2013 13:51:44 +0100, Ophelia
> <Oph...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Steve Walker" <spam...@beeb.net> wrote in message
>> news:km86g0$c1h$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>> "Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:auniqe...@mid.individual.net...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Steve Walker" <spam...@beeb.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:km63sj$ke7$1...@dont-email.me...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote in message
>>>>> news:aumsg1...@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>
>>>>>> What is a 'meta' post?
>>>>>
>>>>> What's a meta, you eh?
>>>>
>>>> Gotta no respect?
>>>
>>> Altogether now..............
>>
>> lol So, after all that, are you going to tell me what a 'meta post' is?
>
> A post about posts, or spreading it a bit wider meta-discussion - a
> discussion about the discussion (or discussions in general). The usage of
> the prefix meta like this goes back many decades but it was widely
> popularised by Hofstadter in his books Godel, Escher, Bach and Metamagical
> Themas. It is now accepted as fairly standard English usage.

Thanks very much, Andy!

All is now understood and it is very kind of you all to take the time to
explain:) Much appreciated!
--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

[Steve Firth]

"Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote:
[snip]

> lol So, after all that, are you going to tell me what a 'meta post' is?

http://www.gardenandbuilding.co.uk/metpost-wedge-grip-red-post-supports-18382-p.asp

Alternatively it's one of the Cambridge Dicks trying to sound clever rather
than bothering to explain something in plain English.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Judith]

On Mon, 6 May 2013 13:51:44 +0100, "Ophelia" <Oph...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid>
wrote:

>
>

MetaPost is a graphical programming language, based on Donald Knuth's MetaFont.
Normally MP graphics are converted to PostScript and used with dvips, but
ConTeXt can use it directly with PDF (see the MP to PDF manual).

[Judith]

On Mon, 06 May 2013 08:52:42 -0500, Andy Leighton <an...@azaal.plus.com> wrote:

<snip>

> It is now accepted as fairly standard English usage.

Bollocks.

It is as common as riding a recumbent is among the normal population.

[Percy Picacity]

Meta-analysis, the same concept applied to (mainly biological or
complex system) research is a standard term, 34 million hits in google.
Meta-discussion is pretty well established, with 157 million
(significantly more than Judith, and you have the advantage of a whole
book in the bible (FSVO bible)!).

I agree "meta post" is only half the frequency of "met-post" though.

--

Percy Picacity

[Judith]

On Mon, 6 May 2013 22:36:46 +0100, Percy Picacity <k...@under.the.invalid>
wrote:

I went to the pub tonight. I was in a group of 15 people - the vast majority
with University degrees.

I asked them what "meta" meant.

Not one of them knew.

It may be standard term in biological or other complex analysis. This
certainly does not mean that the term is fairly standard English usage.

It isn't.

As I said: however, it may be amongst riders of recumbents.

[Percy Picacity]

Unfortunately, it is now possible to obtain a University degree without
any discernible sort of education.

--

Percy Picacity

[kat]

Or maybe they thought Judith was talking about an actual word, as it would
seem to be in this discussion. As no doubt Ophelia did. It isn't a word,
it's a prefix. Metadiscussion might be offputting jargon but at least it
means something. Meta on its own could refer to anything.

--
kat
>^..^<

[Ian Jackson]

In message <auud7i...@mid.individual.net>, kat
<little...@hotmail.com> writes

I'm always confused about the meaning of the prefix 'meta'.
It's from yer Greek, and apparently can mean "after", "later", "behind",
"beyond", "adjacent", "changed", "transformed", "relating to itself" -
and probably many more things, ie just about anything you want it to
mean. To quote from 'Alice Through The Looking-Glass', "When I use a
word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just
what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
--
Ian

[Andy Leighton]

Which I did state in my first post (which was mercilessly cut by
Judith). When I was talking about fairly standard English usage it
was clear I was talking about using it as a prefix.

I would be astonished if 15 university graduates had not encountered
any use of the prefix meta. Metagame, metadata, metatext, metacriticism
are pretty common usages outside the technical arena.

I also accept that Hofstadter is not as popular now as he once was but
GEB did win the Pulitzer when it came out and was (fairly recently) on
the Guardian's 100 Greatest Non-Fiction. Those who remember the book
will note that Hofstadter uses meta as a standalone word. Where what
was (or would become) meta was obvious through context (usually a
discussion or debate).

[Percy Picacity]

There is a sort of English tradition that talking in public about
anything more intellectual than football results or how the Muslims are
trying to introduce sharia law is a sign of decadence or effeminacy, so
I'm in a way not surprised Judith's friends wouldn't admit to knowing
any long words or complicated ideas. On the other hand, they may all
have been 'sports science' or 'golf course management' graduates.

--

Percy Picacity

[Tony]

In uk.net.news.moderation, Andy Leighton <an...@azaal.plus.com> wrote:

>I would be astonished if 15 university graduates had not encountered
>any use of the prefix meta. Metagame, metadata, metatext, metacriticism
>are pretty common usages outside the technical arena.

It's jargon, in this context, and as such, is well known to those who use
the jargon and not known at all to those who don't.
--
Tony Evans
Saving trees and wasting electrons since 1993
blog -> http://perceptionistruth.com/
books -> http://www.bookthing.co.uk/
[ anything below this line wasn't written by me ]

[Percy Picacity]

On 2013-05-08 09:28:44 +0000, Tony said:

> In uk.net.news.moderation, Andy Leighton <an...@azaal.plus.com> wrote:
>
>> I would be astonished if 15 university graduates had not encountered
>> any use of the prefix meta. Metagame, metadata, metatext, metacriticism
>> are pretty common usages outside the technical arena.
>
> It's jargon, in this context, and as such, is well known to those who use
> the jargon and not known at all to those who don't.

I think it is fair to say that the prefix 'meta' is used in the jargon
of very many fields in both arts and science, however. And I find it
hard to believe a university graduate would not have come across at
least one such use.


--

Percy Picacity

[Tony]

I don't find it hard to believe that many university graduates have never
heard of the term. What I find hard to believe is that so many people care
so deeply about it that they allow Judith to wind them up.

Anyone who knows the term will assume other people tend to know it, anyone
who's never heard of the term will assume other people tend not to know it.
Anyone who knows many people who know the term may find it hard to accept
it's still a minority term, and anyone who knows many people who've never
heard the term may find it hard to accept it's known by a majority.

Until either of you present actual data, you're both just speculating with
prejudice.

[tom]

On 6 May, 15:27, "Ophelia" <Ophe...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote:
> "Andy Leighton" <an...@azaal.plus.com> wrote in message
>
> news:slrnkofdda...@azaal.plus.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 6 May 2013 13:51:44 +0100, Ophelia

> > <Ophe...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote:
>
> >> "Steve Walker" <spamt...@beeb.net> wrote in message
> >>news:km86g0$c1h$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> >>> "Ophelia" <Ophe...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote in message
> >>>news:auniqe...@mid.individual.net...
>
> >>>> "Steve Walker" <spamt...@beeb.net> wrote in message
> >>>>news:km63sj$ke7$1...@dont-email.me...
>
> >>>>> "Ophelia" <Ophe...@elsinore.me.ku.invalid> wrote in message

> >>>>>news:aumsg1...@mid.individual.net...
>
> >>>>>> What is a 'meta' post?
>
> >>>>> What's a meta, you eh?
>
> >>>> Gotta no respect?
>
> >>> Altogether now..............
>
> >> lol  So, after all that, are you going to tell me what a 'meta post' is?
>
> > A post about posts, or spreading it a bit wider meta-discussion - a
> > discussion about the discussion (or discussions in general).  The usage of
> > the prefix meta like this goes back many decades but it was widely
> > popularised by Hofstadter in his books Godel, Escher, Bach and Metamagical
> > Themas.  It is now accepted as fairly standard English usage.
>
> Thanks very much, Andy!
>
> All is now understood and it is very kind of you all to take the time to
> explain:)  Much appreciated!

Andy is being disingenuous with his definition in the context of urcm.

Meta, in this context, is a discussion that the urcm moderators would
not like to take place in the moderated group.

E.g. 1. A post that the moderators are doing a good job in filtering
out helmet discussions would not be classed as "meta" and would
therefore be allowed.
E.g. 2. A post that moderators should tighten their policy on
preventing posts from suspected banned posters would not be classed as
"meta" and would therefore be allowed.
E.g. 3. A post that moderators should judge each post on its merits,
and not on the assumed or actual identity of the poster would be
classed as "meta" and would therefore be blocked.
E.g. 4. A post that individual moderators should not be anonymous in
their decisions, and therefore have some individual accountability
would be classed as "meta" and would therefore be blocked.
E.g. 5. A post that discussing the pros and cons of cycling in the
primary position on Cambridge's Roads should be allowed, giving video
examples, would be classed as "meta" and would therefore be blocked.

[John Benn]

"tom" <t...@britsc.com> wrote in message
news:67a46337-75bf-4c97...@z14g2000vba.googlegroups.com...

Thanks Tom. That all makes perfect sense. So "meta" is an excuse for
rejecting posts the moderators don't like.

[Ophelia]

"tom" <t...@britsc.com> wrote in message
news:67a46337-75bf-4c97...@z14g2000vba.googlegroups.com...

Thanks, Tom. That makes more sense in context!


--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

[Steve Firth]

Judith <jmsmi...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 6 May 2013 22:36:46 +0100, Percy Picacity <k...@under.the.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2013-05-06 21:16:30 +0000, Judith said:
>>
>>> On Mon, 06 May 2013 08:52:42 -0500, Andy Leighton <an...@azaal.plus.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> It is now accepted as fairly standard English usage.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bollocks.
>>>
>>> It is as common as riding a recumbent is among the normal population.
>>
>> Meta-analysis, the same concept applied to (mainly biological or
>> complex system) research is a standard term, 34 million hits in google.
>> Meta-discussion is pretty well established, with 157 million
>> (significantly more than Judith, and you have the advantage of a whole
>> book in the bible (FSVO bible)!).
>>
>> I agree "meta post" is only half the frequency of "met-post" though.
>
>
> I went to the pub tonight. I was in a group of 15 people

This isn't an episode of "The Unbelievable Truth".

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[The Todal]

Let's get metaphysical, metaphysical. I wanna get metaphysical, let's
get into metaphysical.

On a huge hill, cragged, and steep, Truth stands, and he that will
reach her, about must, and about must go.

That's usenet for you.

[Ophelia]

"The Todal" <deadm...@beeb.net> wrote in message
news:auus2b...@mid.individual.net...

lol

> On a huge hill, cragged, and steep, Truth stands, and he that will
> reach her, about must, and about must go.
>
> That's usenet for you.
>
>
>

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

[tom]

Yes, that's right, but not a complete answer.

The moderators may use whatever tools and processes they collectively,
or individually, feel appropriate to ensure only their point of view
is heard. Just one of these tools is to block "meta" posts as meta is
defined above with examples.

[Colin Reed]

Indeed - in cyclic chemical nomenclature it means "between opposite and
adjacent" (well, it probably doesn't mean that etymologically, but that
is in practise what it means.) Eg, if you take chlorophenol and put the
chloro group adjacent to the OH group, it is ortho-chlorophenol. If you
put the chloro group opposite the OH group it is para-chlorophenol, and
if you put it in between (at 4 o'clock position) it is meta-chlorophenol.
Now, since chlorophenol stinks to high heaven and the smell hangs around
like nothing else, please take it all away!

[kat]

I know you did.

>
> I would be astonished if 15 university graduates had not encountered
> any use of the prefix meta. Metagame, metadata, metatext,
> metacriticism are pretty common usages outside the technical arena.

They might have encountered the prefix. They wouldn't have encountered the
word, is what I suggested.

>
> I also accept that Hofstadter is not as popular now as he once was but
> GEB did win the Pulitzer when it came out and was (fairly recently) on
> the Guardian's 100 Greatest Non-Fiction. Those who remember the book
> will note that Hofstadter uses meta as a standalone word. Where what
> was (or would become) meta was obvious through context (usually a
> discussion or debate).

Those who even have heard of this Hof person might have a chance. Those of
us who haven't wouldn't know any of it.


--
kat
>^..^<

[Percy Picacity]

On 2013-05-08 10:09:18 +0000, Tony said:

> snip

>
> Until either of you present actual data, you're both just speculating with
> prejudice.

I thought speculation with extreme prejudice was the whole point of
this newsgroup.

--

Percy Picacity

[Tony]

>I thought speculation with extreme prejudice was the whole point of

>Usenet.

Fixed that for you.

[Percy Picacity]

On 2013-05-08 15:05:38 +0000, Tony said:

>>
>> I thought speculation with extreme prejudice was the whole point of
>> Usenet.
>
> Fixed that for you.

Fair point.

--

Percy Picacity

[Zapp Brannigan]

"Andy Leighton" <an...@azaal.plus.com> wrote in message
news:slrnkofdda...@azaal.plus.com...

> widely popularised by Hofstadter in his books Godel,
> Escher, Bach and Metamagical Themas.

To quote the apocryphal QC... in Barnsley they talk of little else.

Referencing a forgotten book by an obscure US writer is hardly a basis to
claim wide acceptance in UK English, especially when the primary purpose of
"meta" comments around here is to emphasise the self-assigned superiority of
an inner clique.

[Zapp Brannigan]

"kat" <little...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:auv5e0...@mid.individual.net...

> Those who even have heard of this Hof person might have a chance.

I followed him when I liked great lager. Odd chap, very hirsute.

[Judith]

On Wed, 08 May 2013 10:28:44 +0100, Tony <to...@darkstorm.invalid> wrote:

>In uk.net.news.moderation, Andy Leighton <an...@azaal.plus.com> wrote:
>
>>I would be astonished if 15 university graduates had not encountered
>>any use of the prefix meta. Metagame, metadata, metatext, metacriticism
>>are pretty common usages outside the technical arena.
>
>It's jargon, in this context, and as such, is well known to those who use
>the jargon and not known at all to those who don't.

Absolutely spot on.

[Judith]

On Wed, 08 May 2013 11:09:18 +0100, Tony <to...@darkstorm.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

>Anyone who knows the term will assume other people tend to know it, anyone
>who's never heard of the term will assume other people tend not to know it.
>Anyone who knows many people who know the term may find it hard to accept
>it's still a minority term, and anyone who knows many people who've never
>heard the term may find it hard to accept it's known by a majority.

This is the second totally sensible post you have made in this thread - well
done - keep it up.

[Judith]

Which indeed more than adequately sums up the current discussion and in
particular the stance taken by some people.

[Steve Firth]

Andy Leighton <an...@azaal.plus.com> wrote:

> The usage of the prefix meta like this goes back many decades but it was

> widely popularised by Hofstadter in his books Godel, Escher, Bach and
> Metamagical Themas.

If you try a little harder you might just sound like a complete ponce.
Oh, no, you managed it.

> It is now accepted as fairly standard English usage.

In the JCR at Selwyn Gumboil College, perhaps.

Others don't feel the need to puff up their ego in quite the same way.

--
Burn Hollywood burn, burn down to the ground

[Steve Firth]

He sort of faded a bit after "Baywatch" but apparently he's still big in
Germany.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Nick]

Meta.... is a common concept in software development. However
programming isn't cool so as with other concepts programmers often find
an alternative explanation for how they knew the word.

To be honest I had assumed everyone understood the concept and only
realised it wasn't so (i.e thought about it) on reading this thread. So
maybe it just signifies being a nerd rather than being in with the "in"
crowd.

[Steve Firth]

Understand it, yes of course, but only the highest order of
pseudo-intellectual ponce so far up their own arse that they do their own
dental work from the inside would use it in this context.

It typifies someone using words not to communicate with the reader but in a
pathetic attempt to look authoritative by association.

I used to rail about this in academia, where individuals attempt to prop up
their sad little egos on a tottering pile of words they glean from the most
obscure sources available. Use technical terms where they make
communication clear and where one is communicating with an audience of
peers. Use Common English and possibly simplified English when attempting
to communicate with a broad audience.

It's not that bloody difficult is it?

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Mike Causer]

On Thu, 9 May 2013 12:26:23 +0000 (UTC)
Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote:

> It typifies someone using words not to communicate with the reader but in a
> pathetic attempt to look authoritative by association.

"Ere, Bert. 'E said "look authoritative by association". Wassat mean?"

"Dunno mate. Heave 'alf a brick at 'im."

[Alex Potter]

On Thu, 09 May 2013 14:03:45 +0100, Mike Causer wrote:

> "Ere, Bert. 'E said "look authoritative by association". Wassat mean?"
>
> "Dunno mate. Heave 'alf a brick at 'im."

+1 :)

--
Alex

[Ophelia]

"Mike Causer" <m.r.c...@goglemail.com> wrote in message
news:kmg6kn$37i$1...@dont-email.me...

lol
>

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

[Toom Tabard]

On Thursday, 9 May 2013 12:15:34 UTC+1, Nick wrote:

>
> Meta.... is a common concept in software development. However
> programming isn't cool so as with other concepts programmers often find
> an alternative explanation for how they knew the word.
>

Well it isn't, and never has been a common concept amongst real
(i.e Fortran and assembly language) programmers. Are you talking about these meta programming languages which cissy programmers use nowadays?

Toom

[Andy Leighton]

On Thu, 9 May 2013 08:22:03 -0700 (PDT), Toom Tabard <toomtab...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, 9 May 2013 12:15:34 UTC+1, Nick wrote:
>
>>
>> Meta.... is a common concept in software development. However
>> programming isn't cool so as with other concepts programmers often find
>> an alternative explanation for how they knew the word.
>>
>
> Well it isn't, and never has been a common concept amongst real
> (i.e Fortran and assembly language) programmers.

The word may not have be in common use amongst your group
(metaprogramming is more of a common term on the LISP side
of the old language fence) but the concepts are in stuff like
S360 Assembler and Fortran (although probably not FORTRAN).

--
Andy Leighton => an...@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

[John Benn]

"Andy Leighton" <an...@azaal.plus.com> wrote in message

news:slrnkoni4p...@azaal.plus.com...

> On Thu, 9 May 2013 08:22:03 -0700 (PDT), Toom Tabard
> <toomtab...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday, 9 May 2013 12:15:34 UTC+1, Nick wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Meta.... is a common concept in software development. However
>>> programming isn't cool so as with other concepts programmers often find
>>> an alternative explanation for how they knew the word.
>>>
>>
>> Well it isn't, and never has been a common concept amongst real
>> (i.e Fortran and assembly language) programmers.
>
> The word may not have be in common use amongst your group
> (metaprogramming is more of a common term on the LISP side
> of the old language fence) but the concepts are in stuff like
> S360 Assembler and Fortran (although probably not FORTRAN).

Has it ever occurred to you that the majority of the population have little
or no interest in (or knowledge of) of programming?

[Percy Picacity]

Or indeed of anything else except football, celebrities and the
problems caused by immigrants. Are we to eschew all intellectual
pursuits in case we offend the Sun "readers"? Do we have to pretend to
be stupid in case the Thought Police take an interest? I know next to
nothing about English literature, but I would not feel it appropriate
to sneer at someone who discussed it in passing. I might even seek to
learn something.

--

Percy Picacity

[Judith]

On Thu, 09 May 2013 11:02:33 -0500, Andy Leighton <an...@azaal.plus.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 9 May 2013 08:22:03 -0700 (PDT), Toom Tabard <toomtab...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday, 9 May 2013 12:15:34 UTC+1, Nick wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Meta.... is a common concept in software development. However
>>> programming isn't cool so as with other concepts programmers often find
>>> an alternative explanation for how they knew the word.
>>>
>>
>> Well it isn't, and never has been a common concept amongst real
>> (i.e Fortran and assembly language) programmers.
>
>The word may not have be in common use amongst your group
>(metaprogramming is more of a common term on the LISP side
>of the old language fence) but the concepts are in stuff like
>S360 Assembler and Fortran (although probably not FORTRAN).

Ah yes LISP - that well known language used by IT companies in multi-million
pound software development projects all over the world.

How many commercial systems can you name which were written in LISP?

Metaprogramming : even more bollocks.

"Meta.... is a common concept in software development." - was more pure
bollocks. I have just asked a colleague who worked in IT for forty years in
proper software development (ie not academic) - and she has never heard of the
use of the term "meta" in any software terms.

She said was it anything to do with metatarsals or metamorphosis.

[Jon Ribbens]

On 2013-05-09, Judith <jmsmi...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> "Meta.... is a common concept in software development." - was more pure
> bollocks. I have just asked a colleague who worked in IT for forty years in
> proper software development (ie not academic) - and she has never heard of the
> use of the term "meta" in any software terms.
>
> She said was it anything to do with metatarsals or metamorphosis.

You found a programmer who has never heard of "metadata"?
This seems... odd.

[Brian Morrison]

On Thu, 09 May 2013 17:50:30 +0100
Judith wrote:

> "Meta.... is a common concept in software development." - was more
> pure bollocks. I have just asked a colleague who worked in IT for
> forty years in proper software development (ie not academic) - and
> she has never heard of the use of the term "meta" in any software
> terms.

Recently it's come into use when discussing large amorphous lumps of
data, people say "meta-data" when talking about something attached to or
contained within other data that tells you about what it is. So, things
like embedded EXIF data in files that contain an image and detail the
camera used, exposure, location etc.

But then again it's not exactly the sort of thing you hear in the
lounge bar of the Dog & Duck unless it's photo club nite ;-)

--

Brian Morrison

[Percy Picacity]

She wasn't involved in the programming for NPfIT or similar was she? Or
did that project pay for so many managers they ran out of money for any
actual code? Seriously, whether you have a good point or whether we
are seriously worried about your colleague's ability may depend on the
exact question you asked. Had she not heard of metadata, for instance?

--

Percy Picacity

[Nick]

I can't speak for every non academic role but in my own chosen corner of
industry the use of the meta prefix is common in terms such as metadata,
metatable, metacharacter, etc.

So my comments were more than pure metabollocks.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <hbkno8d1e7ladjerh...@4ax.com>, Judith
<jmsmi...@hotmail.co.uk> writes

Sodium metabisulphite (campden tablets)?
--
Ian

[Judith]

On Thu, 09 May 2013 18:22:04 +0100, Nick <Nick...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

>
>I can't speak for every non academic role but in my own chosen corner of
>industry the use of the meta prefix is common in terms such as metadata,
>metatable, metacharacter, etc.

Do you and your colleagues use many words which are not in common usage - or
not even in a decent dictionary?

How do your colleagues know what you mean as you make up a new one?

>So my comments were more than pure metabollocks.

I think you have just proven that they are.

[kat]

Andy Leighton wrote:
> On Thu, 9 May 2013 08:22:03 -0700 (PDT), Toom Tabard
> <toomtab...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday, 9 May 2013 12:15:34 UTC+1, Nick wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Meta.... is a common concept in software development. However
>>> programming isn't cool so as with other concepts programmers often
>>> find an alternative explanation for how they knew the word.
>>>
>>
>> Well it isn't, and never has been a common concept amongst real
>> (i.e Fortran and assembly language) programmers.
>
> The word may not have be in common use amongst your group
> (metaprogramming is more of a common term on the LISP side
> of the old language fence) but the concepts are in stuff like
> S360 Assembler and Fortran (although probably not FORTRAN).

So I asked my in house IT man. He's been involved in programming since
1968.

"Is it a common concept" I asked " in software development?"

And he said "No, I wouldn't say so". And returned to his TV show.


--
kat
>^..^<

[Adam Funk]

Are you a Klingon programmer?

[Tony]

Well, here's all the places I know the term from (that I can remember).

* HTML (1997ish+) - <meta> tags
(http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_meta.asp)
* Digital images - metadata in digital images is the phrase I've always
used for EXIF stuff. Not sure when I started. (This includes almost any
use of storing information in a file, about the file itself, where I would
always use the term metadata but can't pinpoint when I started, probably
1990ish).
* Database development/admin (1989+) - metadata is pretty common in that
field.
* Dungeons & Dragons (1985+) - metagaming (meta-gaming) - essentially using
knowledge/skills your character doesn't posess but you do.

So for me, it's been a word / phrase / term I've been aware of since around
1985. I make blog posts tagged as 'meta', I use it in conversation, and
the people I converse with know what the term means in context.

In that regard, I find it curious that other people don't recognise the
term. However, I don't find it unreasonable, just surprising in the same
way it's surprising to me that people don't recognise when I quote the
movie Aliens or Ghostbusters in regular speech.

We are the sum of our experiences and it's often hard to remember that what
we believe to be normal is only normal to us.

Anyone picking a side and saying the other is 'wrong' (and I'm not
suggesting you did, nor am I), is mistaken. There is no right and wrong in
this debate, only someone who likes to incite conflict in others, and the
rest of us who enjoy a good debate.
--
Tony Evans
Saving trees and wasting electrons since 1993
blog -> http://perceptionistruth.com/
books -> http://www.bookthing.co.uk/
[ anything below this line wasn't written by me ]

[Judith]

Excellent - just like my colleague I said I would ask: she said:


"Meta" - what's that?

I said : what do *you* know about programming since 1967? She said:

Elliott 803
Alogol60
Cobol
Basic
Coral66
Fortran
Fortran77
Algol68
Pascal
BCPL
C
VBA
Z80 Assembler
PDP8 Assembler
PDP11 Assembler
8080Assembler
6502Assembler

What did you say? - "Meta"? - what's that?

[Molly Mockford]

At 22:59:35 on Thu, 9 May 2013, Tony <to...@darkstorm.invalid> wrote in
<kmh64a$kjj$1...@matrix.darkstorm.co.uk>:

>Well, here's all the places I know the term from (that I can remember).
>
>* HTML (1997ish+) - <meta> tags
>(http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_meta.asp)
>* Digital images - metadata in digital images is the phrase I've always
>used for EXIF stuff. Not sure when I started. (This includes almost any
>use of storing information in a file, about the file itself, where I would
>always use the term metadata but can't pinpoint when I started, probably
>1990ish).
>* Database development/admin (1989+) - metadata is pretty common in that
>field.
>* Dungeons & Dragons (1985+) - metagaming (meta-gaming) - essentially using
>knowledge/skills your character doesn't posess but you do.
>
>So for me, it's been a word / phrase / term I've been aware of since around
>1985. I make blog posts tagged as 'meta', I use it in conversation, and
>the people I converse with know what the term means in context.

I'm pretty sure that I first came across the prefix in various science
fiction writings. It was too long ago now for me to be able to cite
which, though.
--
Molly - I don't speak for the Committee. I speak for me.
Nature loves variety. Unfortunately, society hates it. (Milton
Diamond Ph.D.)
My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not be so for ever.

[Squashme]

On May 9, 11:32 pm, Molly Mockford <nospamnob...@mollymockford.me.uk>
wrote:
> At 22:59:35 on Thu, 9 May 2013, Tony <t...@darkstorm.invalid> wrote in
> <kmh64a$kj...@matrix.darkstorm.co.uk>:

I remember the metaphysical poets from university. Do they count?
I liked Marvell. His mistress was coy, but when he met 'er, he wanted
to get physical.

"But at my back I always hear
Time's wingèd chariot hurrying near;
And yonder all before us lie
Deserts of vast eternity.
Thy beauty shall no more be found,
Nor, in thy marble vault, shall sound
My echoing song: then worms shall try
That long preserved virginity,
And your quaint honour turn to dust,
And into ashes all my lust:
The grave's a fine and private place,
But none, I think, do there embrace."

[Tony]

In uk.net.news.moderation, Molly Mockford

<nospam...@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:

>At 22:59:35 on Thu, 9 May 2013, Tony <to...@darkstorm.invalid> wrote in
><kmh64a$kjj$1...@matrix.darkstorm.co.uk>:
>
>>Well, here's all the places I know the term from (that I can remember).
>>
>>* HTML (1997ish+) - <meta> tags
>>(http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_meta.asp)
>>* Digital images - metadata in digital images is the phrase I've always
>>used for EXIF stuff. Not sure when I started. (This includes almost any
>>use of storing information in a file, about the file itself, where I would
>>always use the term metadata but can't pinpoint when I started, probably
>>1990ish).
>>* Database development/admin (1989+) - metadata is pretty common in that
>>field.
>>* Dungeons & Dragons (1985+) - metagaming (meta-gaming) - essentially using
>>knowledge/skills your character doesn't posess but you do.
>>
>>So for me, it's been a word / phrase / term I've been aware of since around
>>1985. I make blog posts tagged as 'meta', I use it in conversation, and
>>the people I converse with know what the term means in context.
>
>I'm pretty sure that I first came across the prefix in various science
>fiction writings. It was too long ago now for me to be able to cite
>which, though.

Interesting, I read mostly fantasy fiction when I was young, never really
got into science fiction. You don't get many elves using that word.

[Molly Mockford]

At 07:03:40 on Fri, 10 May 2013, Tony <to...@darkstorm.invalid> wrote in
<kmi2fu$j8c$1...@matrix.darkstorm.co.uk>:

>In uk.net.news.moderation, Molly Mockford
><nospam...@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:
>
>>At 22:59:35 on Thu, 9 May 2013, Tony <to...@darkstorm.invalid> wrote in
>><kmh64a$kjj$1...@matrix.darkstorm.co.uk>:
>>
>>>Well, here's all the places I know the term from (that I can remember).
>>>
>>>* HTML (1997ish+) - <meta> tags
>>>(http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_meta.asp)
>>>* Digital images - metadata in digital images is the phrase I've always
>>>used for EXIF stuff. Not sure when I started. (This includes almost any
>>>use of storing information in a file, about the file itself, where I would
>>>always use the term metadata but can't pinpoint when I started, probably
>>>1990ish).
>>>* Database development/admin (1989+) - metadata is pretty common in that
>>>field.
>>>* Dungeons & Dragons (1985+) - metagaming (meta-gaming) - essentially using
>>>knowledge/skills your character doesn't posess but you do.
>>>
>>>So for me, it's been a word / phrase / term I've been aware of since around
>>>1985. I make blog posts tagged as 'meta', I use it in conversation, and
>>>the people I converse with know what the term means in context.
>>
>>I'm pretty sure that I first came across the prefix in various science
>>fiction writings. It was too long ago now for me to be able to cite
>>which, though.
>
>Interesting, I read mostly fantasy fiction when I was young, never really
>got into science fiction. You don't get many elves using that word.

I wouldn't imagine so - and they probably don't discuss much science
either!

[kat]

<g>

Later on he wanted to know why I was asking. It was always clear he knew
what meta-somethings were and are ( I doubt any of us are unfamiliar with
assorted words with that at the beginning!) , but meta on its own as a
"common concept in software development", the question I had asked about,
no. I assume he is familiar with a similar list, certainly many of the
above are names I recognise - and I admit to taking very little interest in
programming languages but I can't avoid everything he says. ;-)

I described the context ( which I understood having been repeatedly exposed
to it ) and the discussion. He has even heard of this Hof person Andy
mentioned, more than I had ( but then, later, he didn't know Martha
Dandridge married George Washington, and was surprised I did. We all know
what we know ) . Then he said his pet hate was people who liked to try to
look clever by using the word "paradigm". He doesn't like pretentious
twaddle.

--
kat
>^..^<

[kat]

Molly Mockford wrote:
> At 22:59:35 on Thu, 9 May 2013, Tony <to...@darkstorm.invalid> wrote in
> <kmh64a$kjj$1...@matrix.darkstorm.co.uk>:
>
>> Well, here's all the places I know the term from (that I can
>> remember). * HTML (1997ish+) - <meta> tags
>> (http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_meta.asp)
>> * Digital images - metadata in digital images is the phrase I've
>> always used for EXIF stuff. Not sure when I started. (This
>> includes almost any use of storing information in a file, about the
>> file itself, where I would always use the term metadata but can't
>> pinpoint when I started, probably 1990ish).
>> * Database development/admin (1989+) - metadata is pretty common in
>> that field.
>> * Dungeons & Dragons (1985+) - metagaming (meta-gaming) -
>> essentially using knowledge/skills your character doesn't posess but
>> you do. So for me, it's been a word / phrase / term I've been aware of
>> since
>> around 1985. I make blog posts tagged as 'meta', I use it in
>> conversation, and the people I converse with know what the term
>> means in context.
>
> I'm pretty sure that I first came across the prefix in various science
> fiction writings. It was too long ago now for me to be able to cite
> which, though.

I have no idea where or when I first came across the prefix, far too long
ago. There is nothing in the least odd about the words in Tony's list,
even if I never play D&D, or program anything other than the Sky box.

It's the word "meta" on its own which is - to me - meaningless other than in
this context as short for metadiscussion, something which might anyway need
clarification to those who don't know the urcm rules. I really cannot
imagine that all cyclists are programmers, gamers, or even university
graduates of a standard to suit Percy, so there must be a few who, on being
told that a post was disallowed because it is "meta" might wonder what on
earth that is.


--
kat
>^..^<

[Steve Firth]

"Look, there's one of them prats in Lycra!"

"Do 'im."

--
Burn Hollywood burn, burn down to the ground

[Ophelia]

"Steve Firth" <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1l2nb29.12sedlukr9vnkN%%steve%@malloc.co.uk...

Depends ... is 'e wearin' an 'elmet?

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

[Steve Firth]

Tony <to...@darkstorm.invalid> wrote:

> In that regard, I find it curious that other people don't recognise the
> term. However, I don't find it unreasonable, just surprising in the same
> way it's surprising to me that people don't recognise when I quote the
> movie Aliens or Ghostbusters in regular speech.

You'll find that is because there's no movie named "Aliens or
Ghostbusters". Although after "Alien vs Predator" anything is possible.

As far as "meta" goes, you and I and everybody know that its use in this
context is just pompous wank. Admit it, get over it, move on.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[David Damerell]

Quoting kat <little...@hotmail.com>:
>clarification to those who don't know the urcm rules. I really cannot
>imagine that all cyclists are programmers, gamers, or even university
>graduates of a standard to suit Percy, so there must be a few who, on being
>told that a post was disallowed because it is "meta" might wonder what on
>earth that is.

Well, if we ever use bare "meta" in a rejection message, let us know and
we'll take it out.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Second Tuesday, May.
Tomorrow will be Second Wednesday, May.

[David Damerell]

Quoting Judith <jmsmi...@hotmail.co.uk>:
>I said : what do *you* know about programming since 1967? She said:
>Elliott 803

[...]
>6502Assembler

One might reasonably ask what Judith's imaginary friend knows about
programming since 1987. :-)

[Scion]

David Damerell put finger to keyboard:

> Quoting kat <little...@hotmail.com>:
>>clarification to those who don't know the urcm rules. I really cannot
>>imagine that all cyclists are programmers, gamers, or even university
>>graduates of a standard to suit Percy, so there must be a few who, on
>>being told that a post was disallowed because it is "meta" might wonder
>>what on earth that is.
>
> Well, if we ever use bare "meta" in a rejection message, let us know and
> we'll take it out.

A bare meta respray, you could say.

[Tony]

In uk.net.news.moderation, Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote:

>Tony <to...@darkstorm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> In that regard, I find it curious that other people don't recognise the
>> term. However, I don't find it unreasonable, just surprising in the same
>> way it's surprising to me that people don't recognise when I quote the
>> movie Aliens or Ghostbusters in regular speech.

>As far as "meta" goes, you and I and everybody know that its use in this
>context is just pompous wank. Admit it, get over it, move on.

I'll decide what I know thanks.

[Toom Tabard]

On Thursday, 9 May 2013 17:02:33 UTC+1, Andy Leighton wrote:
> On Thu, 9 May 2013 08:22:03 -0700 (PDT), Toom Tabard <toomtab...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, 9 May 2013 12:15:34 UTC+1, Nick wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Meta.... is a common concept in software development. However
> >> programming isn't cool so as with other concepts programmers often find
> >> an alternative explanation for how they knew the word.
> >>
> >
> > Well it isn't, and never has been a common concept amongst real
> > (i.e Fortran and assembly language) programmers.
>
> The word may not have be in common use amongst your group
> (metaprogramming is more of a common term on the LISP side
> of the old language fence) but the concepts are in stuff like
> S360 Assembler and Fortran (although probably not FORTRAN).
>

Jings! And I did thirty years Fortran and assembly language programming in
advanced application of computers in research, and never once knew I was doing
anything as advanced, obscure and esoteric as metaprogramming. If only I'd
known, I'd have asked for a bonus or promotion.

Mind you, as a professional writer with an advanced command of the English
language, including scientific, technical and legal terminology, I hadm't
a clue what the URCM moderators meant by meta discussion when I first saw it
used. I just put it down to the fact that nothing they otherwise said or did
make any sense either, and I'm happy still to put it down to that.

Toom

[Simon Mason]

On May 10, 5:56 pm, Toom Tabard <toomtabard1...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Mind you, as a professional writer with an advanced command of the English

> language, including scientific, technical and legal terminology, I hadm't...

That must be the most inopportune place to make a spelling error that
I have ever seen!

--
Simon Mason

[Judith]

On Thu, 09 May 2013 22:59:35 +0100, Tony <to...@darkstorm.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

> only someone who likes to incite conflict in others

Yes - why do you keep trying to do so?

[Judith]

On Wed, 8 May 2013 08:29:39 +0100, "kat" <little...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Percy Picacity wrote:
>> On 2013-05-07 23:32:04 +0000, Judith said:
>>
>>> On Mon, 6 May 2013 22:36:46 +0100, Percy Picacity
>>> <k...@under.the.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2013-05-06 21:16:30 +0000, Judith said:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 06 May 2013 08:52:42 -0500, Andy Leighton
>>>>> <an...@azaal.plus.com> wrote: <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>> It is now accepted as fairly standard English usage.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bollocks.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is as common as riding a recumbent is among the normal
>>>>> population.
>>>>
>>>> Meta-analysis, the same concept applied to (mainly biological or
>>>> complex system) research is a standard term, 34 million hits in
>>>> google. Meta-discussion is pretty well established, with 157 million
>>>> (significantly more than Judith, and you have the advantage of a
>>>> whole book in the bible (FSVO bible)!).
>>>>
>>>> I agree "meta post" is only half the frequency of "met-post" though.
>>>
>>>
>>> I went to the pub tonight. I was in a group of 15 people - the vast
>>> majority with University degrees.
>>>
>>> I asked them what "meta" meant.
>>>
>>> Not one of them knew.
>>>
>>> It may be standard term in biological or other complex analysis. This
>>> certainly does not mean that the term is fairly standard
>>> English usage. It isn't.
>>>
>>> As I said: however, it may be amongst riders of recumbents.
>>
>> Unfortunately, it is now possible to obtain a University degree
>> without any discernible sort of education.
>
>Or maybe they thought Judith was talking about an actual word, as it would
>seem to be in this discussion. As no doubt Ophelia did. It isn't a word,
>it's a prefix. Metadiscussion might be offputting jargon but at least it
>means something. Meta on its own could refer to anything.


I asked them what they understood by "Meta" : what did it mean - I did not say
as a word or as a prefix. No one said - is it a word - or do you mean the
prefix.

It meant nothing at all as indeed it will to most normal people.

[Judith]

On 10 May 2013 15:46:38 +0100 (BST), David Damerell
<dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

<snip>

>Well, if we ever use bare "meta" in a rejection message, let us know and
>we'll take it out.

Does advice from Wacko count:

He even went to the trouble to change a subject line to the single word "Meta"
on its own:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Meta (was Re: Is EN1078 a good enough standard for cycle helmets?)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 11:50:33 +0100

In article <3je116586o33u79ta...@4ax.com>,
Ace <b.ro...@ifrance.com> wrote:
>So, can we yet conclude that nothing new is being brought to the
>discussion and this thread should now be wound up?

<moderator hat>

I agree that things are starting to go round in circles. Can I ask
everyone to please consider whether what they're saying really does
bring anything new.

<snip>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Jon Ribbens]

On 2013-05-10, New Profile <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 09 May 2013 21:23:41 +0100, kat wrote:
>> So I asked my in house IT man. He's been involved in programming since
>> 1968.
>

> Meta was in use long before then. I remember hearing it in a Vera Lynn
> song.

I remember that too, but I don't know where, and I don't know when.

[Adam Funk]

Heavy meta?

[Tony]

In uk.net.news.moderation, Judith <jmsmi...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

>It meant nothing at all as indeed it will to most normal people.

Your sample set is no where near large enough to make that statement. Which
is true on 'both' sides of the debate, you're as wrong as the people you're
trying to incite.

[Tony]

In uk.net.news.moderation, Judith <jmsmi...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

That's a new pathetic low from you, I guess you're tired or in a rush.

Really, it's worth of some of the most entry level trolls.

[Steve Firth]

Tony <to...@darkstorm.invalid> wrote:
> In uk.net.news.moderation, Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Tony <to...@darkstorm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> In that regard, I find it curious that other people don't recognise the
>>> term. However, I don't find it unreasonable, just surprising in the same
>>> way it's surprising to me that people don't recognise when I quote the
>>> movie Aliens or Ghostbusters in regular speech.
>
>> As far as "meta" goes, you and I and everybody know that its use in this
>> context is just pompous wank. Admit it, get over it, move on.
>
> I'll decide what I know thanks.

You're not qualified to know.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Mark Goodge]

On Fri, 10 May 2013 17:14:23 +0100, Tony put finger to keyboard and typed:

>In uk.net.news.moderation, Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Tony <to...@darkstorm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> In that regard, I find it curious that other people don't recognise the
>>> term. However, I don't find it unreasonable, just surprising in the same
>>> way it's surprising to me that people don't recognise when I quote the
>>> movie Aliens or Ghostbusters in regular speech.
>
>>As far as "meta" goes, you and I and everybody know that its use in this
>>context is just pompous wank. Admit it, get over it, move on.
>
>I'll decide what I know thanks.

Philosophically speaking, though, can anyone ever truly decide what they
know? Because of course, you can only know the limits of your knowledge by
going beyond them, in which case you now only know what you used to know.
Although I suppoose that knowing what you know could be construed as a kind
of meta-knowledge.

Mark
--
Please take a short survey on salary perceptions: http://meyu.eu/am
My blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk

[Judith]

On 10 May 2013 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), David Damerell

<dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Quoting Judith <jmsmi...@hotmail.co.uk>:
>>I said : what do *you* know about programming since 1967? She said:
>>Elliott 803
>[...]
>>6502Assembler
>
>One might reasonably ask what Judith's imaginary friend knows about
>programming since 1987. :-)

I don't know she became a manager.