Why uk* ?

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Heather Colquhoun

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Oct 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/14/98
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Fact:

There exists to the best of my knowledge,

uk.local.birmingham
uk.local.channel-isles
uk.local.east-anglia
uk.local.geordie
uk.local.hampshire
uk.local.hereford
uk.local.isle-of-wight
uk.local.kent
uk.local.london
uk.local.midlands
uk.local.north-staffs
uk.local.north-wales
uk.local.nw-england
uk.local.south-wales
uk.local.southwest
uk.local.surrey
uk.local.thames-valley
uk.local.warwickshire
uk.local.yorkshire

And any day now uk.local.county-durham

on the other hand we have scot* which while I have never disputed its
existance or rights it has as far as I am aware:

scot.announce
scot.bairns
scot.birds
scot.business.internet
scot.environment
scot.followup
scot.general
scot.jobs
scot.politics
scot.scots
scot.test

and I do not have access but I believe there is a soccer one too.

My questions are:
where are the area groups?
are there any ?
why should mine be first?
is it fair to have a group that covers two *countries* in a single
*country* hierarchy, when there is a hierarchy that covers both?


--
Heather Colquhoun :)
>colquh...@zetnet.co.uk< http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/duns/
Si Je Puis (If I Can)


Kingsley Matthews

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Oct 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/14/98
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In article <199810141...@zetnet.co.uk>, Heather Colquhoun
<colquh...@zetnet.co.uk> writes

Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
the england.* hierarchy, however most English people seem incapable of
distinguishing.

Recently I, and a few others, tried to set up a wales.* hierarchy, but
it has, as yet, come to nought, mainly due to internal disagreements.
However, when the time is right, I'm sure we will get there.
--
Kingsley

Craig Cockburn

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <199810141...@zetnet.co.uk>, Heather Colquhoun
<colquh...@zetnet.co.uk> writes

>


>My questions are:
>where are the area groups?

I know of ed.* but don't follow others. There are newsgroup description
files describing each group - these descriptions come from the newsgroup
creation message I understand and are available to download although I
don't have the location to hand at the moment. You could search this
list for relevant towns. I used the list to compile the following list
of groups

news:ed.accommodation - Edinburgh accommodation
news:ed.followup - Edinburgh - followups to articles
news:ed.general - General Edinburgh topics
news:ed.review - Reviews of events in Edinburgh

news:scot.announce - Scotland/North England Wide: General
Announcements
news:scot.bairns - Discussions about Scottish children
news:scot.birds - Birdwatching in Scotland
news:scot.business.internet - Internet related discussion for Scottish
business
news:scot.environment - Scottish environmental issues
news:scot.followup - Followups to scot.general articles
news:scot.general - Scotland/North England Wide: General Articles
news:scot.jobs - Jobs wanted and offered in Scotland.
news:scot.legal - Scottish legal issues
news:scot.politics - Scottish politics discussions.
news:scot.scots - Scots language discussions.
news:scot.sports.soccer - For the discussion of Scottish football.
news:scot.test - Test postings in the scot.* hierarchy


>are there any ?
Yes

>why should mine be first?

Define mine

>is it fair to have a group that covers two *countries* in a single
>*country* hierarchy, when there is a hierarchy that covers both?
>

scot.general has done so since its creation about 13 years ago. See
above.

--
Craig Cockburn ("coburn") http://www.scot.demon.co.uk/
Port na Banrighinn, Alba. (Queensferry, Scotland) PGP key available.
Sgri\obh thugam 'sa Gha\idhlig ma 'se do thoil e.

Ian Johnston

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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Kingsley Matthews (king...@kandam.demon.co.uk) wrote:

: Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
: the england.* hierarchy,

But it isn't, except de facto in the uk.local.* area. Most of the uk.*
hierarchy is applicable to the whole of the uk - I can't see any sense
at all in splitting uk.rec.cars.classic into Scottish and English
branches?

Or are you seriously saying that there are lots of, for example, sailors out
there in Scotland who don't subscribe to uk.rec.sailing because they're
waiting for scot.sailing to come along?

Ian

Craig Cockburn

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <199810141...@zetnet.co.uk>, Heather Colquhoun
<colquh...@zetnet.co.uk> writes
>why should mine be first?
>is it fair to have a group that covers two *countries* in a single
>*country* hierarchy, when there is a hierarchy that covers both?
>
What about Germans and their interest in the Borders? They seem to
associate the Borders with Scotland, no mention of the UK here.

Find in FolkWorld - the online music magazine an article about Border
traditions, Scots identity and Deaf Shepherds.
John Morran, the excellent singer of Scotland's liveliest and most
powerful traditional bands Deaf Shepherd, is an expert in the history
and traditions of Scotland and the Borders in particular.

You can find out more about it all in FolkWorld - the online music
magazine:
URL: http://www.worldmusic.de/folkworld/
(go to articles, interviews and live reviews)
--
To reply, remove the 'FolkWorld' from the e-mail address!
-------------------------------------------------------------------
FolkWorld - the online music magazine (English & German):
http://www.worldmusic.de/folkworld

Lesley Robertson

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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Kingsley Matthews wrote:

>
>
> Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself

> the england.* hierarchy, however most English people seem incapable of
> distinguishing.
>
> Recently I, and a few others, tried to set up a wales.* hierarchy, but
> it has, as yet, come to nought, mainly due to internal disagreements.
> However, when the time is right, I'm sure we will get there.
> --

Trouble with all these sub-groups is that only a limited number are
carried by international ISPs - we get 6 of the scot.* groups, 2 of the
ed.* groups, and only a few of the uk.* ones - reaction of our systems
manager to a request for more? "We can't carry everything, not many people
will want little groups like that, they're only for locals", etc, etc.
Unless you han generate a strong hierarchy (such as the soc.* and rec.*
ones), you will ghetto-ize your groups. Mind you, this may be a darstardly
plan to get rid of us ex-pats and assorted aliens....
Paranoia strikes!
Lesley Robertson


Andy Mabbett

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <C0UimkAq...@kandam.demon.co.uk>, Kingsley Matthews
<king...@kandam.demon.co.uk> writes

>Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
>the england.* hierarchy, however most English people seem incapable of
>distinguishing.

That would be extremely *dishonest* and insulting to its many users from
Wales, Scotland and NI. Not to mention the folks of the uk.local.*-wales
groups...

Will you be changing your ISP soon, BTW?
--
Andy Mabbett, Development Manager, Birmingham Assist
Birmingham City Council - http://www.birmingham.gov.uk

!*!*!*! See our *new* web site, at the above address !*!*!*!

Ian Jelf

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <C0UimkAq...@kandam.demon.co.uk>, Kingsley Matthews
<king...@kandam.demon.co.uk> writes
>Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
>the england.* hierarchy, however most English people seem incapable of
>distinguishing.

A sweeping and wholly inaccurate statement. And I know a bit about
what at least some English people think; being one of them!

I don't think making over-generalised statements based on people's
nationality is a good thing. Especially when it isn't true!
--
Ian Jelf http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk
Birmingham, UK
Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide
for the Heart of England and London


Andy Mabbett

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <704a6a$mnc$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Ian Johnston
<engs...@sable.ox.ac.uk> writes
>Kingsley Matthews (king...@kandam.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>
>: Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
>: the england.* hierarchy,
>

>But it isn't, except de facto in the uk.local.* area.

But it isn't there, either;

uk.local.north-wales
uk.local.south-wales

And I can't understand why we are accused of being an underhand
england.8 hierarchy on the one hand and criticised for welcoming
uk.lcoal.[parts of Scotland] on the other, seemingly by the same set of
people.

> Most of the uk.*
>hierarchy is applicable to the whole of the uk - I can't see any sense
>at all in splitting uk.rec.cars.classic into Scottish and English
>branches?

>Or are you seriously saying that there are lots of, for example, sailors out
>there in Scotland who don't subscribe to uk.rec.sailing because they're
>waiting for scot.sailing to come along?

Quite - my previous post on this subject:

<GHWlR+CD...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk>

refers.

Dave Thomas

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <704a6a$mnc$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Ian Johnston
<engs...@sable.ox.ac.uk> writes
>Kingsley Matthews (king...@kandam.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>
>: Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
>: the england.* hierarchy,
>
>But it isn't, except de facto in the uk.local.* area. Most of the uk.*

>hierarchy is applicable to the whole of the uk - I can't see any sense
>at all in splitting uk.rec.cars.classic into Scottish and English
>branches?

There is surely room for both a uk and a Welsh hierarchy. Many topics
overlap and would fit well into the uk hierarchy but many do not. I am
thinking particularly of ngs which are specific to such topics as
history, literature, culture etc. NGs of this type are almost universaly
dedicated to English perspectives. Those that are not culturaly specific
such as "classic cars", would of course, sit quite comfortably within a
uk hierarchy.

>
>Or are you seriously saying that there are lots of, for example, sailors out
>there in Scotland who don't subscribe to uk.rec.sailing because they're
>waiting for scot.sailing to come along?

With respect, I think that you are missing the point. Wales has an
identity, a language, a history and a literary culture that is different
and solidly identifiable. The formation of a Welsh hierarchy would
greatly increase the ability of Welsh people and those who are
interested in the culture, to discuss those aspects which are Welsh
specific. I am sure that a Welsh hierarchy would greatly encourage the
development of many other facets of the culture, language, local
history, national history, genealogy, sports, media, literature, customs
etc. The reluctance to accept this is of some concern.

Hawddamor

dave
--
Dave Thomas

Tim Forcer

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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Heather Colquhoun wrote:
>
> Fact:
>
> There exists to the best of my knowledge,
>
> uk.local. [list cut ...]

>
>on the other hand we have scot* which while I have
>never disputed its existance or rights it has as
>far as I am aware:
>
>scot. [list cut ...]

>
>and I do not have access but I believe there is a
>soccer one too.

Is that soccer.something or scot.soccer?

>My questions are:
>where are the area groups?

>are there any ?


>why should mine be first?
>is it fair to have a group that covers two *countries*
>in a single *country* hierarchy, when there is a hierarchy
>that covers both?

By precedent, the answer to the last question has to be "Yes".
Southampton is covered by both uk.local.hampshire and solent.*

But then precedent can be a poor basis for judgement!

I suggest you ask your first two questions in scot.scots and/or
scot.general, as I presume those people would be in a good position to
give you an answer.

As your third question, the obvious answer is because yours is the first
such proposal? But the obvious can be very misleading.

HTH,

--
Tim Forcer t...@ecs.soton.ac.uk
The University of Southampton, UK

The University is not responsible for my opinions

Andy Mabbett

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
In article <4GBfDDAS...@qantam.demon.co.uk>, Dave Thomas
<Da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> writes

>The formation of a Welsh hierarchy would
>greatly increase the ability of Welsh people and those who are
>interested in the culture, to discuss those aspects which are Welsh
>specific.

In what way would it *increase* that ability, compared to, say,
uk.culture.welsh.* ?

(politics aside, of course)

Dave Thomas

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <rAEew+Ax...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk>, Andy Mabbett
<amab...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk> writes

>In article <4GBfDDAS...@qantam.demon.co.uk>, Dave Thomas
><Da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> writes
>>The formation of a Welsh hierarchy would
>>greatly increase the ability of Welsh people and those who are
>>interested in the culture, to discuss those aspects which are Welsh
>>specific.
>
>In what way would it *increase* that ability, compared to, say,
>uk.culture.welsh.* ?

Simply by opening up the diversity of topics that would appeal to a
wider group of people interested in specific aspects. More specific
topics such as welsh.history.mediaeval, welsh.literature.mediaeval, a
range of different level language ngs etc, administered within its own
hierarchy is to my mind a natural development into areas which are not
of general uk interest. There is an obvious need for forums which
encourage serious discussion of these sort of topics and perhaps they
would be better able to develop in a culture specific hierarchy.

I do not see that as needing to include general discussion groups which
may well decide that they would rather be part of a uk hierarchy.
>
>(politics aside, of course)

Why is it assumed that such an hierarchy would be politically based. I
would assume that the interest would be rather less political than
academic?

Would such a change really pose a problem to the uk hierarchy?
--
Dave Thomas

Andy Mabbett

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <3GsYh5Az...@scot.demon.co.uk>, Craig Cockburn
<cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> writes

Craig seems to have omitted news.admin.hierarchies form the newsgroups
for that post, so, being helpful, I've added it, and snipped all but the
most relevant material:

>news:scot.announce - Scotland/North England Wide: General
>Announcements

>news:scot.general - Scotland/North England Wide: General
>Articles

Now, what was Henrietta saying..?

B.P. Gracey

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <4GBfDDAS...@qantam.demon.co.uk>, Dave Thomas
<Da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> writes:
> In article <704a6a$mnc$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Ian Johnston
> <engs...@sable.ox.ac.uk> writes
> >Kingsley Matthews (king...@kandam.demon.co.uk) wrote:
> >
> >: Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
> >: the england.* hierarchy,
> >
> >But it isn't, except de facto in the uk.local.* area. Most of the uk.*
> >hierarchy is applicable to the whole of the uk - I can't see any sense
> >at all in splitting uk.rec.cars.classic into Scottish and English
> >branches?
>
> There is surely room for both a uk and a Welsh hierarchy. Many topics
> overlap and would fit well into the uk hierarchy but many do not. I am
> thinking particularly of ngs which are specific to such topics as
> history, literature, culture etc. NGs of this type are almost universaly
> dedicated to English perspectives. Those that are not culturaly specific
> such as "classic cars", would of course, sit quite comfortably within a
> uk hierarchy.

Umm, no, you're quite wrong... they're not 'dedicated' to some mysteriously
Anglocentric view (actually, as a north-westerner who lives just a mile from the
Welsh border, I'd say London-centred), they just were mainly set up by, and are
mainly visited by, people from that area of the country. I can't see any
problem with an ng called, say, 'uk.culture.literature.wales', or any reason why
Scots & Irish & Albanians should be excluded from posting to it...

> >Or are you seriously saying that there are lots of, for example, sailors out
> >there in Scotland who don't subscribe to uk.rec.sailing because they're
> >waiting for scot.sailing to come along?
>
> With respect, I think that you are missing the point. Wales has an
> identity, a language, a history and a literary culture that is different

> and solidly identifiable. The formation of a Welsh hierarchy would


> greatly increase the ability of Welsh people and those who are
> interested in the culture, to discuss those aspects which are Welsh

> specific. I am sure that a Welsh hierarchy would greatly encourage the
> development of many other facets of the culture, language, local
> history, national history, genealogy, sports, media, literature, customs
> etc. The reluctance to accept this is of some concern.

What it would accomplish, if it was at all successful (which is unlikely), is
the ghettoisation of Welsh culture within the hierarchy - as S4C has done with
Welsh TV drama, for example. The lack of propagation of 'local' groups not in
the uk.* hierarchy would also be a factor - I know of many folk overseas
(including Welsh speakers) who can get at least part of uk.* but nothing of
scot.*. I know this lack of propagation has been of some concern to users on
the Isle of Man (which is not exactly in the UK, and has its own ng & URL
organisation).

Btw, the points you make for Wales having a separate identity are also valid for
Yorkshire, and North Wales as a separate unit from Mid & South Wales.

-bpg-

Blade-Runner

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
It was Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:30:42 +0100. You remember? It was in
uk.net.news.config. Dave Thomas <Da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> wrote some
of this :

>There is surely room for both a uk and a Welsh hierarchy.

There is surely room for both a uk and a North Staffs hierarchy. North
Staffs has an identity, a dialect, a history and a culture that is
different and solidly identifiable. The formation of a North Staffs
hierarchy would greatly increase the ability of North Staffs people and


those who are interested in the culture, to discuss those aspects which

are North Staffs specific. I am sure that a North Staffs hierarchy would


greatly encourage the development of many other facets of the culture,

dialect, local history, national history, genealogy, sports, media,


literature, customs etc. The reluctance to accept this is of some
concern.

Say thee

--

Geoff (Blade-Runner)
Put the cat out to reply via e-mail
North Staffs Oatcakes Page http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/2333
Go placidly amid the toys and waste (sign on kids' bedroom door) [me]

James Coupe

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <C0UimkAq...@kandam.demon.co.uk>, Kingsley Matthews
<king...@kandam.demon.co.uk> writes
>Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
>the england.* hierarchy, however most English people seem incapable of
>distinguishing.

You must have missed the two Welsh groups in the uk.local.* hierarchy.

HTH.

--
James Coupe "Blu-Tack - the undiscoved unifying force"

"je veux jouer a l'assassin
je veux jouer de l'orgue de Barbarie." - Jacques Prevert


Dave Thomas

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <362d09d7...@news.freeserve.co.uk>, Blade-Runner <black-
d...@thecatgeocities.com> writes

>It was Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:30:42 +0100. You remember? It was in
>uk.net.news.config. Dave Thomas <Da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> wrote some
>of this :
>
>>There is surely room for both a uk and a Welsh hierarchy.
>
>There is surely room for both a uk and a North Staffs hierarchy. North
>Staffs has an identity, a dialect, a history and a culture that is
>different and solidly identifiable. The formation of a North Staffs
>hierarchy would greatly increase the ability of North Staffs people and
>those who are interested in the culture, to discuss those aspects which
>are North Staffs specific. I am sure that a North Staffs hierarchy would
>greatly encourage the development of many other facets of the culture,
>dialect, local history, national history, genealogy, sports, media,
>literature, customs etc. The reluctance to accept this is of some
>concern.
>
>Say thee
>
Hmm, yes I think I am beginning to see what the problem is. Thanks for
the enlightenment.
--
Dave Thomas

JTC Murphy

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
> >
> >
>
> Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
> the england.* hierarchy, however most English people seem incapable of
> distinguishing.
>

Get real. Some stuff is almost certainly focused on England (sheer weight
of population) - and equally as bad focused on London or at least the
South East. But of the rest much is relevant to all of us on these
islands.

uk.local /may/ be a different matter

Murph

Adam Greenow

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
In article <F0vI4...@csc.liv.ac.uk>, B.P. Gracey
<banc...@shoebox.win-uk.net> writes

>Btw, the points you make for Wales having a separate identity are also valid
>for
>Yorkshire, and North Wales as a separate unit from Mid & South Wales.
>
>-bpg-
So what if it is? Though I would argue North Wales is part of the nation
of Wales and has more in common with other parts of Wales than it does
with England. If Yorkshire people want to have there own hierarchy then
fine. That's an issue for them. Lets not muddy the waters and stick to
the issue at hand. The fact remains Wales is a nation, we have our own
language, culture, national sports teams and soon Assembly. I for one
want that recognised by having our own hierarchy. This would also make
the organisation of Welsh groups more navigable. Why shouldn't we have
our own hierarchy if we want it? What odds is it to you? No one is going
to force you to read it.

It makes much more sense to me for groups concerned with Wales to appear
under an easily recognised hierarchy, rather than have people searching
around to find different interests. The fact is usenet is growing all
the time and there will be increasing demand for more sub groups. If
interested parties overseas have trouble gaining access to this new
hierarchy then I'm sure they can take this up with their ISPs. In fact,
I believe overseas users of society.culture.wales have been some of the
strongest proponents of such a Welsh hierarchy in the past. They see the
formation of a Welsh hierarchy important both symbolically and
functionally as much as those of us resident in Wales, from my reading
of posts in the past. If this isn't the case and I'm wrong let them
speak.

If we accept usenet is going to grow then lets look at two scenarios.
Compare, off the top of my head:

Wales
*.culture
*.literature
*.language
*.music
*.language.learners
*.sport
*.sport.league.of.wales
*.sport.rugby
*'sport.football
*.sport.cricket
*.history
*.politics
*.assembly
*.community
*.expats
*.eisteddfod
*.baptist
etc. etc. etc.

compared with the same spread out under UK. and soc. and rec. and other
hierarchies etc. it is plainly obvious which is the most efficient and
sensible solution.

Please support a Wales hierarchy whatever your politics, it is clearly
needed. Better to get it under way now to save future confusion.

Wales exists, it has in the past and it will in the future. The
Government of the United Kingdom recognise Wales as a nation with the
Assembly referendum, and other initiatives, why can't usenet and why
can't you? Let's not confuse the issues, it's nothing to do with people
wanting a break up of the union or their personal politics, it's a
demand for a recognition of Wales as a nation as it stands now. And a
demand for a more functional and usable system. That's how I view it
anyway.


--
Adam


Craig Cockburn

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <29RJvbBl...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk>, Andy Mabbett
<amab...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk> writes

>In article <3GsYh5Az...@scot.demon.co.uk>, Craig Cockburn
><cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>Craig seems to have omitted news.admin.hierarchies form the newsgroups
>for that post, so, being helpful, I've added it, and snipped all but the
>most relevant material:

I don't know why you felt it was helpful as I posted the full list there
a few weeks ago. You should have removed the news: part and the hyphen
to comply with the format there. Pay attention at the back!

>
>>news:scot.announce - Scotland/North England Wide: General
>>Announcements
>
>>news:scot.general - Scotland/North England Wide: General
>>Articles
>

Pretty big overlap with the proposed Borders group....

>Now, what was Henrietta saying..?

Why don't you quote her rather than trying to infer a level of support
which doesn't exist.

Craig Cockburn

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
In article <VqWU4CAP...@qantam.demon.co.uk>, Dave Thomas
<Da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <rAEew+Ax...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk>, Andy Mabbett
><amab...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk> writes

>>In article <4GBfDDAS...@qantam.demon.co.uk>, Dave Thomas
>><Da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> writes
>>>The formation of a Welsh hierarchy would
>>>greatly increase the ability of Welsh people and those who are
>>>interested in the culture, to discuss those aspects which are Welsh
>>>specific.
>>
>>In what way would it *increase* that ability, compared to, say,
>>uk.culture.welsh.* ?
>
Some information which I hope helps you to understand this:

Welsh and Scottish culture, life and priorities are different to those
in the UK as a whole. In Wales there is an emphasis on the Welsh
language. In Scotland, there is a strong sense of nationalism in
politics. Neither of these really has a UK counterpart.

It may well be that if the Welsh wish to give priority to their language
they may wish a whole hierarchy of groups under wales.* either in Welsh
or in English about Welsh. e.g. wales.welsh.news or
cymru.cymraeg.newyddion. Accommodating such a structure under
uk.culture.welsh.cymraeg.newyddion not only runs into the problem of
overly long newsgroup names, but it also imposes uk.* hierarchical
priorities on issues that Welsh people may wish to prioritise in a
different way. From a UK perspective, Welsh language may be perceived as
a cultural issue whereas to Welsh communities it could be seen as simply
a method of communication with culture forming only part of a broader
picture.

This situation already exists today if you compare the differing
structures for related departments in the Scottish office and Welsh
office to those in the UK cabinet. In Scotland, there is a minister for
Gaelic separate to the person responsible for arts, but at a UK level
such a position (were England to have a minister for Cornish) would
probably be within Chris Smith's "Culture" dept.

This is not to say that usenet should follow the way government does
things, but it shows that given the freedom to organise things
structurally, Scotland (and I assume Wales) would rather assign their
own structure and priorities on things to reflect their own situations
rather than simply going along with what happens at a UK level.

Craig

Simon Gray

unread,
Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
Down on uk.net.news.config street, the vibe from Kingsley Matthews is:

~ Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
~ the england.* hierarchy, however most English people seem incapable of
~ distinguishing.

Considering that all the uk.* groups are as open to people from other
parts of the uk as they are to people from england, in what manner is
it an england.* rather than a uk.* ?

Oh, you wouldn't, perchance, be talking bollocks, would you ?

--
*.smau.fau.kn peaj
http://www.mahayana.demon.co.uk/ <--- All New Improved Washes-Cleaner-
Than-Clean New Formula !

Iain Rae

unread,
Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:14:11 +0100, Craig Cockburn
<cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <29RJvbBl...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk>, Andy Mabbett
><amab...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk> writes


>>In article <3GsYh5Az...@scot.demon.co.uk>, Craig Cockburn
>><cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> writes
>>
>>Craig seems to have omitted news.admin.hierarchies form the newsgroups
>>for that post, so, being helpful, I've added it, and snipped all but the
>>most relevant material:
>
>I don't know why you felt it was helpful as I posted the full list there
>a few weeks ago.

and Andy was expected to know that how? I'd refer you to his sig but
he's changed it.

>You should have removed the news: part and the hyphen
>to comply with the format there. Pay attention at the back!
>

erm... why did you format it incorrectly in the first place?

>>
>>>news:scot.announce - Scotland/North England Wide: General
>>>Announcements
>>
>>>news:scot.general - Scotland/North England Wide: General
>>>Articles
>>
>Pretty big overlap with the proposed Borders group....

Pretty big loss of moral high ground relating to various comments on
not stepping on other peoples patches..

Terrance Richard Boyes

unread,
Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
Andy Mabbett <URL:mailto:amab...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4GBfDDAS...@qantam.demon.co.uk>, Dave Thomas
> <Da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> writes
>>The formation of a Welsh hierarchy would
>>greatly increase the ability of Welsh people and those who are
>>interested in the culture, to discuss those aspects which are Welsh
>>specific.

In which case go for it...

> In what way would it *increase* that ability, compared to, say,
> uk.culture.welsh.* ?

cymru.* ?

(apologies for my Welsh :)

--
<URL:http://www.pierrot.co.uk/> Team AMIGA
Wait.. is this a FUN THING or the END of LIFE in Petticoat Junction??

Terrance Richard Boyes

unread,
Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
Kingsley Matthews <URL:mailto:king...@kandam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <199810141...@zetnet.co.uk>, Heather Colquhoun
> <colquh...@zetnet.co.uk> writes

[snip list of newsgroups]

>>My questions are:
>>where are the area groups?

Which "area" groups.

>>are there any ?
>>why should mine be first?

???

>>is it fair to have a group that covers two *countries* in a single
>>*country* hierarchy, when there is a hierarchy that covers both?

Many hierarchies are not "country" based, many newsgroups overlap.
Some people may prefer one over the other.

> Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself

> the england.* hierarchy,

It isn't, many of the newsgroups are truly uk.*, that many of the
posters are southerners is purely socio-economic...

> however most English people seem incapable of

> distinguishing.

I may be English by birth (half-Welsh by descent), but I consider
myself to be British first, and a Northerner second... English is
well down on the list. In general therefore I'd prefer uk.* groups
over england.*.

> Recently I, and a few others, tried to set up a wales.* hierarchy, but
> it has, as yet, come to nought, mainly due to internal disagreements.
> However, when the time is right, I'm sure we will get there.

So sort out your disagreements... Though you may find that some
prefer posting in uk.local.north-wales, rather than wales.north.

--
<URL:http://www.pierrot.co.uk/> Team AMIGA

For people who like that kind of book, that is the kind of book they will like.

Craig Cockburn

unread,
Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
In article <+PAqgFAJnjJ2Ew$k...@netcomuk.co.uk>, Adam Greenow
<ag...@netcomuk.co.uk> writes

>Wales exists, it has in the past and it will in the future. The
>Government of the United Kingdom recognise Wales as a nation with the
>Assembly referendum, and other initiatives, why can't usenet and why
>can't you? Let's not confuse the issues, it's nothing to do with people
>wanting a break up of the union or their personal politics, it's a
>demand for a recognition of Wales as a nation as it stands now. And a
>demand for a more functional and usable system. That's how I view it
>anyway.
>
Well said that man.

Craig Cockburn

unread,
Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
In article <364198c1....@news.demon.co.uk>, Simon Gray
<$simon$@star-one.org.uk> writes

>Down on uk.net.news.config street, the vibe from Kingsley Matthews is:
>
>~ Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
>~ the england.* hierarchy, however most English people seem incapable of
>~ distinguishing.
>
>Considering that all the uk.* groups are as open to people from other
>parts of the uk as they are to people from england, in what manner is
>it an england.* rather than a uk.* ?
>
Try reading soc.culture.british, also open to people from around the UK
(more so than uk.*) and look at the English bias there...

Craig Cockburn

unread,
Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
In article <36264680....@news.hw.ac.uk>, Iain Rae
<ia...@civ.hw.ac.uk> writes

>On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:14:11 +0100, Craig Cockburn
><cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In article <29RJvbBl...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk>, Andy Mabbett
>><amab...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk> writes
>>>In article <3GsYh5Az...@scot.demon.co.uk>, Craig Cockburn
>>><cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> writes
>>>
>>>Craig seems to have omitted news.admin.hierarchies form the newsgroups
>>>for that post, so, being helpful, I've added it, and snipped all but the
>>>most relevant material:
>>
>>I don't know why you felt it was helpful as I posted the full list there
>>a few weeks ago.
>
>and Andy was expected to know that how? I'd refer you to his sig but
>he's changed it.
>
Funny, I thought it was usual to read a group first before posting there
so that you'd know your posting was on charter. Andy would know, because
he should have read the group before posting there.

>>You should have removed the news: part and the hyphen
>>to comply with the format there. Pay attention at the back!
>>
>
>erm... why did you format it incorrectly in the first place?
>

Because it was originally formatted for HTML purposes and on posting it
there I was informed of the separate formatting issues for
news.admin.hierarchies

>
>Pretty big loss of moral high ground relating to various comments on
>not stepping on other peoples patches..
>

Don't blame me, I played no part in the creation or naming of those
groups

I've already asked earlier today:

Although the descriptions of scot.general and scot.announce at the
moment currently covers Berwick and the North of England. Maybe we could
ask the people there how they feel about this and whether they're aware
of it?

Simon Gray

unread,
Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
Down on uk.net.news.config street, the vibe from Ian Jelf is:

~ I don't think making over-generalised statements based on people's
~ nationality is a good thing. Especially when it isn't true!

Indeed, normally it is described as 'racism'.

Simon Gray

unread,
Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
Down on uk.net.news.config street, the vibe from Dave Thomas is:

~ There is surely room for both a uk and a Welsh hierarchy.

There is indeed. Nobody in uk.net.* is preventing you from setting
one up.

~ The reluctance to accept this is of some concern.

See above.

Lyn David Thomas

unread,
Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
In article: <rAEew+Ax...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk> Andy Mabbett
<amab...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> In article <4GBfDDAS...@qantam.demon.co.uk>, Dave Thomas
> <Da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> writes
> >The formation of a Welsh hierarchy would
> >greatly increase the ability of Welsh people and those who are
> >interested in the culture, to discuss those aspects which are Welsh
> >specific.
>
> In what way would it *increase* that ability, compared to, say,
> uk.culture.welsh.* ?

It would be easier to create specific Welsh groups under one
hierarchy - I would imagine that uk.culture.welsh.politics would
be less than welcome and people would suggest that it should go
in uk.politics.welsh.

A welsh hierarchy is a likely development, and while hierarchies
are not mirrors of the real world they are influenced by events.
For example the proposal to create a 1 hour magazine programme
with regional opt outs to replace the 6 o'clock news on the BBC
has provoked the Welsh council of the BBC to say that they want
nothing to do with it and wish to have a 1 hour Welsh news programme.
Thus to a degree a Welsh agenda is emerging. So a welsh.* hierarchy
may well be an appropriate development - of course this in no way
interferes with the development of Welsh groups on the uk.* hierarchy
- in the same way as the creation of the uk.local.*-wales groups has
went hand in hand with the existing soc.culture.welsh group.
--
__
*Lyn David Thomas* \/
Web pages start at
http://www.stuffing.demon.co.uk/lyn

Jeff Lewis

unread,
Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, from the depths of soc.culture.welsh
<Andy Mabbett <amab...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk>> wrote :-

>In article <C0UimkAq...@kandam.demon.co.uk>, Kingsley Matthews
><king...@kandam.demon.co.uk> writes
>>Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
>>the england.* hierarchy, however most English people seem incapable of
>>distinguishing.
>
>That would be extremely *dishonest* and insulting to its many users from
>Wales, Scotland and NI. Not to mention the folks of the uk.local.*-wales
>groups...
>
>Will you be changing your ISP soon, BTW?

Immediately after the uls-w ng was created Kingsley posted to scw the
following message of support.

Quote :- "I hope it dies, because it is devisive".

His attitude would have denied us Welsh of a local group which currently
receives 60 - 70 posts a day.

BTW Kingsley lives in Scotland. :-)

--
Jeff "Ymswynwch rhag Gwyr y Gloran"
http://www.rhondda.demon.co.uk
.................. PGP KEY @ 0xDE609241 ..................

Jeff Lewis

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, from the depths of soc.culture.welsh
<Dave Thomas <Da...@qantam.demon.co.uk>> wrote :-

>
>There is surely room for both a uk and a Welsh hierarchy. Many topics
>overlap and would fit well into the uk hierarchy but many do not. I am
>thinking particularly of ngs which are specific to such topics as
>history, literature, culture etc. NGs of this type are almost universaly
>dedicated to English perspectives. Those that are not culturaly specific
>such as "classic cars", would of course, sit quite comfortably within a
>uk hierarchy.

Dave, I agree that there is room for both uk* and wales* but I don't
understand why. You seem to be confusing the uk* hierarchy with some
sort of political agenda. The uk* hierarchy is a postal system which
will collect and deliver your post from most parts of the world.

The hierarchy is managed by all who subscribe to the config group,
Welsh, English, Scottish, Irish, in fact anyone regardless of where they
live. I used it to propose uls-w, and it worked fine.

If you want to create Welsh cultural groups the system is already in
place for you to do so. If you want Welsh language groups go for it, you
can even create the name in Welsh [1] but you may have to help the
committee out with some translations during the creation process. :-)

The uk hierarchy does not belong to the English, it belongs to you, me
and everyone else, and the sooner people accept that the better.

This tribalism is of no benefit in usenet. IMO.

[1] As long as the name starts with uk., for technical reasons.

Bryan K

unread,
Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
Adam Greenow <ag...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote

>So what if it is? Though I would argue North Wales is part of the nation
>of Wales and has more in common with other parts of Wales than it does
>with England.

Blimey - I take it you haven't been anywhere near Rhyl lately then? I, and
many others living here, would argue that the North Wales coast from
Llandudno eastwards has *much* more in common with England than with Wales.
Surely it's better to split the difference and say we're all part of the UK
rather than get into such divisive categorisation though?

Bryan Kennerley mailto:b...@northwalesonline.freeserve.co.uk
North Wales Online - The Web Index for North Wales
http://www.northwalesonline.freeserve.co.uk/ (328 links and rising)
news:uk.local.north-wales


Bryan K

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> wrote

>Welsh and Scottish culture, life and priorities are different to those
>in the UK as a whole. In Wales there is an emphasis on the Welsh
>language. In Scotland, there is a strong sense of nationalism in
>politics. Neither of these really has a UK counterpart.

I can assure you that my life, having lived in North Wales for 25 of my 27
years, has not involved an emphasis on the Welsh language. I see none on
TV, hear virtually none on the street, and out of 30 or so work collegues,
precisely 5 speak Welsh. My culture certainly does not have a Welsh
orientation and neither does my life or my priorities. Like many others in
North Wales I watch Granada TV rather than the Wales oriented HTV, BBC
North West rather than BBC Wales, and Channel 4 over S4C.

>From a UK perspective, Welsh language may be perceived as
>a cultural issue whereas to Welsh communities it could be seen as simply
>a method of communication with culture forming only part of a broader
>picture.

ISTR that the Welsh capital has a Welsh speaking population of around 3%.
In North Wales it varies from 75% in Gwynedd (the highest in Wales) to less
than 15% in Wrexham. English is spoken by 99.999% of the population across
the country. Another relevent fact is that Welsh is a largely spoken
language, as opposed to a written one. The great majority of Welsh speakers
I have known are uncomfortable writing in Welsh, generally choosing not to
wherever possible. I feel it is unlikely that a Welsh language newsgroup
would be successful from a communication point of view.

Jeff Lewis

unread,
Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, from the depths of uk.net.news.config
<Jeff Lewis <je...@rhondda.demon.co.uk>> wrote :-

> The uk* hierarchy is a postal system which
>will collect and deliver your post from most parts of the world.

Bugger!. I know it's not right, but you know what I mean. :-)

Andy Mabbett

unread,
Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
In article <VqWU4CAP...@qantam.demon.co.uk>, Dave Thomas

<Da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> writes
>>>The formation of a Welsh hierarchy
[...]

>>In what way would it *increase* that ability, compared to, say,
>>uk.culture.welsh.* ?
>
>Simply by opening up the diversity of topics that would appeal to a
>wider group of people interested in specific aspects.

In what way could this not be achieved under uk.*?

> More specific
>topics such as welsh.history.mediaeval,

uk.culture.welsh.history.mediaeval, uk.c.h.w.m or uk.c.h.m.w

> welsh.literature.mediaeval,

uk.c.l.m, uk.c.l.w.m or uk.c.l.m.w.

[...]


> There is an obvious need for forums which
>encourage serious discussion of these sort of topics and perhaps they
>would be better able to develop in a culture specific hierarchy.

The results of the uk.culture.* vote are pending.

[...]


>>(politics aside, of course)
>
>Why is it assumed that such an hierarchy would be politically based.

It isn't - leastways not by me - hence my above comment.

(Relevant ng only)

Andy Mabbett

unread,
Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
In article <wcZ53oAl...@scot.demon.co.uk>, Craig Cockburn
<cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> writes

>>>>The formation of a Welsh hierarchy
[...]
>>>In what way would it *increase* that ability, compared to, say,
>>>uk.culture.welsh.* ?
>>
>Some information which I hope helps you to understand this:
>
>Welsh and Scottish culture, life and priorities are different to those
>in the UK as a whole.

And you ask why some people find you irritating - do *you* like being
patronised?

[...]


>It may well be that if the Welsh wish to give priority to their language
>they may wish a whole hierarchy of groups under wales.* either in Welsh
>or in English about Welsh. e.g. wales.welsh.news or
>cymru.cymraeg.newyddion.

Or uk.culture.welsh.language.* ...

> Accommodating such a structure under
>uk.culture.welsh.cymraeg.newyddion not only runs into the problem of
>overly long newsgroup names,

So choose a different model.

> but it also imposes uk.* hierarchical
>priorities on issues that Welsh people may wish to prioritise in a
>different way.

Ditto.

> From a UK perspective, Welsh language may be perceived as
>a cultural issue whereas to Welsh communities it could be seen as simply
>a method of communication with culture forming only part of a broader
>picture.

So propose uk.langauge.welsh.*/ u.l.w.cymraeg.* (if I've got that right)

>This situation already exists today if you compare the differing
>structures for related departments in the Scottish office and Welsh

>office to those in the UK cabinet.

That is not a situation on Usenet.

[...]


>This is not to say that usenet should follow the way government does
>things, but it shows that given the freedom to organise things
>structurally, Scotland (and I assume Wales) would rather assign their
>own structure and priorities on things to reflect their own situations
>rather than simply going along with what happens at a UK level.

There is noting to stop proponents of uk.* newsgroups proposing other
models, as per the examples I give above.

Andy Mabbett

unread,
Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
In article <MbSGG2AJ...@scot.demon.co.uk>, Craig Cockburn
<cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> writes

> also open to people from around the UK
>(more so than uk.*)

How so? (rather, not so!)

Steve Lewin

unread,
Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:37:43 +0100, Craig Cockburn
<cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <+PAqgFAJnjJ2Ew$k...@netcomuk.co.uk>, Adam Greenow
><ag...@netcomuk.co.uk> writes
>>Wales exists, it has in the past and it will in the future. The
>>Government of the United Kingdom recognise Wales as a nation with the
>>Assembly referendum, and other initiatives, why can't usenet and why
>>can't you? Let's not confuse the issues, it's nothing to do with people
>>wanting a break up of the union or their personal politics, it's a
>>demand for a recognition of Wales as a nation as it stands now. And a
>>demand for a more functional and usable system. That's how I view it
>>anyway.
>>
>Well said that man.

Perhaps you folks haven't noticed but nationhood is not directly
connected with top level domains in Usenet. Unless my geography is
even worse that I believed there are no rec, sci, com, alt etc,
nations.

It is quite possible for any group of people to organize a Usenet
domain for themselves. Pretty much all it takes is finding a name and
then persuading thousands of news admins across the Usenet world to
take it and you've cracked it. Go for it.

Where it gets controversial is when trying to tell the members of
other, older, better established domains what groups they can have.
Welsh , Scots, Yorkshiremen, Cornish, people from Tunstall, people
with green hair living in Dunstable are all welcome to start their own
specific domains. Where it gets silly is when they then insist that no
other domain should be allowed to have a group which might attract
"their" people. Usenet doesn't work like that and I hope it never
will.

You don't own an audience. You provide a facility, attempt to persuade
newsadmins to give it propagation and hope people will read it. If you
want a Welsh domain go get it organised. It has little or no impact on
the uk domain.

Steve

Andy Mabbett

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
In article <g8c9vlAztjJ2Ew$T...@scot.demon.co.uk>, Craig Cockburn
<cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> writes
[...]

>You should have removed the news: part and the hyphen
>to comply with the format there.

I wouldn't dream if mis- quoting you.

[...]

>>Now, what was Henrietta saying..?
>
>Why don't you quote her rather than trying to infer a level of support
>which doesn't exist.

Because I'm not trying to infer anything of the kind.

Andy Mabbett

unread,
Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
In article <36264680....@news.hw.ac.uk>, Iain Rae
<ia...@civ.hw.ac.uk> writes
>and Andy was expected to know that how? I'd refer you to his sig but
>he's changed it.

Not changed, just used one of several alternatives. I assume you refer
to this one:
--
Andy Mabbett: Personal view only - *not* my employers!
Visiting Birmingham? See the *new* site at: http://www.birmingham.gov.uk

Hint: Telepathy rarely functions correctly via Usenet

Blade-Runner

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
It was Thu, 15 Oct 1998 17:10:08 +0100. You remember? It was in
uk.net.news.config. Dave Thomas <Da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> wrote some
of this :

>>Say thee
>>
>Hmm, yes I think I am beginning to see what the problem is. Thanks for
>the enlightenment.

You're welcome <g>

--

Geoff (Blade-Runner)
Put the cat out to reply via e-mail
North Staffs Oatcakes Page http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/2333
Go placidly amid the toys and waste (sign on kids' bedroom door) [me]

Blade-Runner

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
It was Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:32:05 +0100. You remember? It was in
uk.net.news.config. Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> wrote some
of this :

>Scotland (and I assume Wales) would rather assign their
>own structure and priorities on things to reflect their own situations
>rather than simply going along with what happens at a UK level.

Round and round we go. I don't have a problem with that. My problem is
why should that have anything to do with uk.*?

Kingsley Matthews

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
In article <eeATN$BOJTJ...@bluebadge.demon.co.uk>, Ian Jelf
<i...@bluebadge.demon.co.uk> writes

>In article <C0UimkAq...@kandam.demon.co.uk>, Kingsley Matthews
><king...@kandam.demon.co.uk> writes
>>Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
>>the england.* hierarchy, however most English people seem incapable of
>>distinguishing.
>
>A sweeping and wholly inaccurate statement. And I know a bit about
>what at least some English people think; being one of them!

>
>I don't think making over-generalised statements based on people's
>nationality is a good thing. Especially when it isn't true!

Bit it is true!
--
Kingsley

Kingsley Matthews

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
In article <36454b70....@news.demon.co.uk>, Simon Gray
<$simon$@star-one.org.uk> writes

>Down on uk.net.news.config street, the vibe from Ian Jelf is:
>
>~ I don't think making over-generalised statements based on people's
>~ nationality is a good thing. Especially when it isn't true!
>
>Indeed, normally it is described as 'racism'.
>

Even when it's true?
--
Kingsley

Kingsley Matthews

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
to
In article <Q3Un1AAF...@obeah.demon.co.uk>, James Coupe
<ja...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes

>In article <C0UimkAq...@kandam.demon.co.uk>, Kingsley Matthews
><king...@kandam.demon.co.uk> writes
>>Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
>>the england.* hierarchy, however most English people seem incapable of
>>distinguishing.
>
>You must have missed the two Welsh groups in the uk.local.* hierarchy.
>
>HTH.
>

No, I didn't.
--
Kingsley

Kingsley Matthews

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <$nIr5tAD...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk>, Andy Mabbett
<amab...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk> writes

>In article <C0UimkAq...@kandam.demon.co.uk>, Kingsley Matthews
><king...@kandam.demon.co.uk> writes
>>Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
>>the england.* hierarchy, however most English people seem incapable of
>>distinguishing.
>
>That would be extremely *dishonest* and insulting to its many users from
>Wales, Scotland and NI. Not to mention the folks of the uk.local.*-wales
>groups...
>
>Will you be changing your ISP soon, BTW?

Why should I change my ISP?
--
Kingsley

Kingsley Matthews

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <fDZqQBA+...@rhondda.demon.co.uk>, Jeff Lewis
<je...@rhondda.demon.co.uk> writes

>On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, from the depths of soc.culture.welsh
><Andy Mabbett <amab...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk>> wrote :-
>>In article <C0UimkAq...@kandam.demon.co.uk>, Kingsley Matthews
>><king...@kandam.demon.co.uk> writes
>>>Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
>>>the england.* hierarchy, however most English people seem incapable of
>>>distinguishing.
>>
>>That would be extremely *dishonest* and insulting to its many users from
>>Wales, Scotland and NI. Not to mention the folks of the uk.local.*-wales
>>groups...
>>
>>Will you be changing your ISP soon, BTW?
>
>Immediately after the uls-w ng was created Kingsley posted to scw the
>following message of support.
>
>Quote :- "I hope it dies, because it is devisive".
>
>His attitude would have denied us Welsh of a local group which currently
>receives 60 - 70 posts a day.
>
>BTW Kingsley lives in Scotland. :-)
>
And my residence denies me the right to say what I think?
--
Kingsley

Kingsley Matthews

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <704a6a$mnc$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Ian Johnston
<engs...@sable.ox.ac.uk> writes
>Kingsley Matthews (king...@kandam.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>
>: Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
>: the england.* hierarchy,
>
>But it isn't, except de facto in the uk.local.* area. Most of the uk.*
>hierarchy is applicable to the whole of the uk - I can't see any sense
>at all in splitting uk.rec.cars.classic into Scottish and English
>branches?
>
>Or are you seriously saying that there are lots of, for example, sailors out
>there in Scotland who don't subscribe to uk.rec.sailing because they're
>waiting for scot.sailing to come along?
>
>Ian

Thanks Ian, the first intelligent response to my troll.
--
Kingsley

Kingsley Matthews

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <4GBfDDAS...@qantam.demon.co.uk>, Dave Thomas
<Da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> writes

>In article <704a6a$mnc$1...@news.ox.ac.uk>, Ian Johnston
><engs...@sable.ox.ac.uk> writes
>>Kingsley Matthews (king...@kandam.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>>
>>: Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
>>: the england.* hierarchy,
>>
>>But it isn't, except de facto in the uk.local.* area. Most of the uk.*
>>hierarchy is applicable to the whole of the uk - I can't see any sense
>>at all in splitting uk.rec.cars.classic into Scottish and English
>>branches?
>
>There is surely room for both a uk and a Welsh hierarchy. Many topics
>overlap and would fit well into the uk hierarchy but many do not. I am
>thinking particularly of ngs which are specific to such topics as
>history, literature, culture etc. NGs of this type are almost universaly
>dedicated to English perspectives. Those that are not culturaly specific
>such as "classic cars", would of course, sit quite comfortably within a
>uk hierarchy.
>>
>>Or are you seriously saying that there are lots of, for example, sailors out
>>there in Scotland who don't subscribe to uk.rec.sailing because they're
>>waiting for scot.sailing to come along?
>
>With respect, I think that you are missing the point. Wales has an
>identity, a language, a history and a literary culture that is different
>and solidly identifiable. The formation of a Welsh hierarchy would

>greatly increase the ability of Welsh people and those who are
>interested in the culture, to discuss those aspects which are Welsh
>specific. I am sure that a Welsh hierarchy would greatly encourage the
>development of many other facets of the culture, language, local
>history, national history, genealogy, sports, media, literature, customs
>etc. The reluctance to accept this is of some concern.
>
>Hawddamor
>
>dave

Thank you too Dave, the debate is getting on now. You are, of course,
right. I posted to stir things up. There is some light being generated
amongst the heat.
--
Kingsley

Kingsley Matthews

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <rAEew+Ax...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk>, Andy Mabbett
<amab...@bham-assist.demon.co.uk> writes

>In article <4GBfDDAS...@qantam.demon.co.uk>, Dave Thomas
><Da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> writes
>>The formation of a Welsh hierarchy would
>>greatly increase the ability of Welsh people and those who are
>>interested in the culture, to discuss those aspects which are Welsh
>>specific.
>
>In what way would it *increase* that ability, compared to, say,
>uk.culture.welsh.* ?
>
>(politics aside, of course)

Why are you opposed?
--
Kingsley

Kingsley Matthews

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <362d09d7...@news.freeserve.co.uk>, Blade-Runner <black-
d...@thecatgeocities.com> writes
>It was Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:30:42 +0100. You remember? It was in

>uk.net.news.config. Dave Thomas <Da...@qantam.demon.co.uk> wrote some
>of this :
>
>>There is surely room for both a uk and a Welsh hierarchy.
>
>There is surely room for both a uk and a North Staffs hierarchy. North
>Staffs has an identity, a dialect, a history and a culture that is
>different and solidly identifiable. The formation of a North Staffs
>hierarchy would greatly increase the ability of North Staffs people and

>those who are interested in the culture, to discuss those aspects which
>are North Staffs specific. I am sure that a North Staffs hierarchy would

>greatly encourage the development of many other facets of the culture,
>dialect, local history, national history, genealogy, sports, media,

>literature, customs etc. The reluctance to accept this is of some
>concern.
>
>Say thee
>
Then go for it, who the hell is stopping you? I've never heard of any
Welsh or Scottish person opposing your idea.
--
Kingsley

Kingsley Matthews

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <wAmRgGAC...@rhondda.demon.co.uk>, Jeff Lewis

<je...@rhondda.demon.co.uk> writes
>On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, from the depths of soc.culture.welsh
><Dave Thomas <Da...@qantam.demon.co.uk>> wrote :-
>>
>>There is surely room for both a uk and a Welsh hierarchy. Many topics
>>overlap and would fit well into the uk hierarchy but many do not. I am
>>thinking particularly of ngs which are specific to such topics as
>>history, literature, culture etc. NGs of this type are almost universaly
>>dedicated to English perspectives. Those that are not culturaly specific
>>such as "classic cars", would of course, sit quite comfortably within a
>>uk hierarchy.
>
>Dave, I agree that there is room for both uk* and wales* but I don't
>understand why. You seem to be confusing the uk* hierarchy with some
>sort of political agenda. The uk* hierarchy is a postal system which

>will collect and deliver your post from most parts of the world.
>
>The hierarchy is managed by all who subscribe to the config group,
>Welsh, English, Scottish, Irish, in fact anyone regardless of where they
>live. I used it to propose uls-w, and it worked fine.
>
>If you want to create Welsh cultural groups the system is already in
>place for you to do so. If you want Welsh language groups go for it, you
>can even create the name in Welsh [1] but you may have to help the
>committee out with some translations during the creation process. :-)
>
>The uk hierarchy does not belong to the English, it belongs to you, me
>and everyone else, and the sooner people accept that the better.
>
>This tribalism is of no benefit in usenet. IMO.
>
>
>
>[1] As long as the name starts with uk., for technical reasons.
>

Then why are you so tribalist, Jeff?
--
Kingsley

Kingsley Matthews

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <F0vI4...@csc.liv.ac.uk>, B.P. Gracey
<banc...@shoebox.win-uk.net> writes
>Btw, the points you make for Wales having a separate identity are also valid for
>Yorkshire, and North Wales as a separate unit from Mid & South Wales.
>
>-bpg-

If Yorkshire people want it, then there is now way it should opposed. A
similat point applies to North Wales. However, I have noticed that most
people in Yorkshire claim to be English, while most people in North
Wales claim to be Welsh.

If you want to change that I think you have an uphill task.
--
Kingsley

Kingsley Matthews

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In article <9810152...@pierrot.co.uk>, Terrance Richard Boyes
<t...@pierrot.co.uk> writes
>Kingsley Matthews <URL:mailto:king...@kandam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <199810141...@zetnet.co.uk>, Heather Colquhoun
>> <colquh...@zetnet.co.uk> writes
>
>[snip list of newsgroups]
>
>>>My questions are:
>>>where are the area groups?
>
>Which "area" groups.
>
>>>are there any ?
>>>why should mine be first?
>
>???
>
>>>is it fair to have a group that covers two *countries* in a single
>>>*country* hierarchy, when there is a hierarchy that covers both?
>
>Many hierarchies are not "country" based, many newsgroups overlap.
>Some people may prefer one over the other.

>
>> Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
>> the england.* hierarchy,
>
>It isn't, many of the newsgroups are truly uk.*, that many of the
>posters are southerners is purely socio-economic...

>
>> however most English people seem incapable of
>> distinguishing.
>
>I may be English by birth (half-Welsh by descent), but I consider
>myself to be British first, and a Northerner second... English is
>well down on the list. In general therefore I'd prefer uk.* groups
>over england.*.
>
>> Recently I, and a few others, tried to set up a wales.* hierarchy, but
>> it has, as yet, come to nought, mainly due to internal disagreements.
>> However, when the time is right, I'm sure we will get there.
>
>So sort out your disagreements... Though you may find that some
>prefer posting in uk.local.north-wales, rather than wales.north.
>
That may be so, and I would have no problems with that.
--
Kingsley

Steve Lewin

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:39:05 +0100, Craig Cockburn
<cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <364198c1....@news.demon.co.uk>, Simon Gray
><$simon$@star-one.org.uk> writes
>>Down on uk.net.news.config street, the vibe from Kingsley Matthews is:
>>
>>~ Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call itself
>>~ the england.* hierarchy, however most English people seem incapable of
>>~ distinguishing.
>>
>>Considering that all the uk.* groups are as open to people from other
>>parts of the uk as they are to people from england, in what manner is
>>it an england.* rather than a uk.* ?
>>
>Try reading soc.culture.british, also open to people from around the UK
>(more so than uk.*) and look at the English bias there...

SOC is a not very well propagated international domain. I'm not
convinced that more people FROM THE UK have access to it than to uk.*.
For example only one of the 3 ISPs I use carries it. They all carry
most if not all of uk.*.

But getting back to uk.*, what are you complaining about ?

Any "English bias" would appear to be because more English people can
read and are willing to contribute than any other group of people.
Usenet is organised by people having an interest and contributing. If
the Welsh, Scots, or any other self-selected group prefer not to
contribute that is their choice. Mind you I can't see it myself. There
seem to be quite a few unEnglish contributing to this newsgroup and
most of the others I read.

Steve


Philip Powell

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In message <C0UimkAq...@kandam.demon.co.uk>
Kingsley Matthews <king...@kandam.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <199810141...@zetnet.co.uk>, Heather Colquhoun
><colquh...@zetnet.co.uk> writes

>>Fact:
>>
>>There exists to the best of my knowledge,
>>
[snipped a list of the uk.local.* groups - which is *not* the entire
uk.* group listing]
>>
>> on the other hand we have scot* which while I have never disputed
>> its existance or rights it has as far as I am aware:
>>
[snipped list of 11 scot.* groups]
>>
>>and I do not have access but I believe there is a soccer one too.


>>
>>My questions are:
>>where are the area groups?

>>are there any ?
>>why should mine be first?

>>is it fair to have a group that covers two *countries* in a single
>>*country* hierarchy, when there is a hierarchy that covers both?
>>
>>
>

> Hmmm, I would like the uk.* hierarchy to become honest and call

> itself the england.* hierarchy, however most English people seem
> incapable of distinguishing.

The uk.* hierarchy covers a wide range of topics, uk.local.* is a very
small part of it.

Excluding uk.local.* - which groups in uk.* are 'English'? I'll give
you uk.transport.london.

--
Philip Powell
Looking north across the Derwent Valley and Northumberland
to The Cheviot
PGP Key available on request

Philip Powell

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98
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In message <3GsYh5Az...@scot.demon.co.uk>
Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <199810141...@zetnet.co.uk>, Heather Colquhoun
><colquh...@zetnet.co.uk> writes
>
>>

>>My questions are:
>>where are the area groups?

[snip]

>news:scot.general - Scotland/North England Wide: General Articles

[snip]

>>why should mine be first?

>Define mine

If you don't know which 'mine' Heather is referring to, then you must
have missed the beginning of the thread (-:

>>is it fair to have a group that covers two *countries* in a single
>>*country* hierarchy, when there is a hierarchy that covers both?
>>

>scot.general has done so since its creation about 13 years ago. See
>above.

So it was ok for scot.* to cover two countries but it isn't ok for
uk.local.* to do likewise?

Andy Mabbett

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Oct 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM10/15/98