New group propogation
Gareth Crawshaw
complaining about propogation problems with their news providers. Is there
any way that a list of servers/providers to which new groups have been
propogated can be found? Is there a list of contacts taht can be used to
ensure that propogation can be carried forwards? I see that there are
movements now to encourage uk.* groups to certains ISPs but is there any
rule/preferecnce/request neede to ensure speedy propogation to all ISPs? If
not, is there a list of providers that can be contacted to encourage
propogation (other than stsandard ISP contact addresses)?
Thanks.
Gareth Crawshaw
Robin Carmody
Freeserve must be contacted as quickly as possible.
--
Robin Carmody, Portland, Dorset
Andrew Gierth
Gareth> A specifc NG was created about three weeks ago now,
which NG?
--
Andrew.
member, uk.* usenet committee <http://www.usenet.org.uk>
committee statements appear in uk.net.news.announce. this isn't one of them
Eusa
Carmody) wrote:
<snip>
>Freeserve must be contacted as quickly as possible.
Not for uk.* groups (or contacted at all for that matter).
--
Eusa
Above comments. Mine. Not employer.
You get the drift.
Andrew Gierth
Gareth> A specifc NG was created about three weeks ago now,
>> which NG?
Paul> Take a wild, random stab at a guess by looking at the header
Paul> you just replied to instead of trying and failing to be a smart
Paul> arse.
no, it was a perfectly serious question; if I had simply assumed that
he was referring to uk.politics.rural when in fact he meant some other
group (perhaps a related one in another hierarchy), I could have
wasted a lot of time unnecessarily.
Gareth Crawshaw
"Andrew Gierth" <and...@erlenstar.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:87y97pm...@erlenstar.demon.co.uk...
> >>>>> "Paul" == Paul Harper <pa...@harper.netNOSPAM> writes:
>
> Gareth> A specifc NG was created about three weeks ago now,
>
> >> which NG?
>
> Paul> Take a wild, random stab at a guess by looking at the header
> Paul> you just replied to instead of trying and failing to be a smart
> Paul> arse.
>
> no, it was a perfectly serious question; if I had simply assumed that
> he was referring to uk.politics.rural when in fact he meant some other
> group (perhaps a related one in another hierarchy), I could have
> wasted a lot of time unnecessarily.
I purposely didn't specify *ukpr* as I intended the question to be generic
(but that I had one specifically in mind)... Just out of curiousity, I'm
trying to work out... What could you have wasted time trying to do? (I
crossposted to ukpr because of discussions I have had with people there
about propogation issues...)
Gareth
Peter J King
> >>>>> "Paul" == Paul Harper <pa...@harper.netNOSPAM> writes:
>
> Gareth> A specifc NG was created about three weeks ago now,
>
> >> which NG?
>
> Paul> Take a wild, random stab at a guess by looking at the header
> Paul> you just replied to instead of trying and failing to be a smart
> Paul> arse.
>
> no, it was a perfectly serious question; if I had simply assumed that
> he was referring to uk.politics.rural when in fact he meant some other
> group (perhaps a related one in another hierarchy), I could have
> wasted a lot of time unnecessarily.
Doing what? You've asked which newsgroup, and when you found out, you
defended your question. Was there something else that might have taken
time? Actualy responding to the posting in a constructive way, for
example?
PJK
Andrew Gierth
Gareth> I purposely didn't specify *ukpr* as I intended the question
Gareth> to be generic (but that I had one specifically in mind)...
The generic answers are:
Gareth> Is there any way that a list of servers/providers to which
Gareth> new groups have been propogated can be found?
not in general. You can get something of an idea by looking at where
the (non-crossposted) posts in the group originate. In the past you
could also look at the Path lines to see where posts were propagating
_through_, but this is no longer really relevent since most news
transit sites now propagate based on group pattern matching rather
than specific lists of groups.
You can check against the group lists of some of the commercial
providers using the tool here: http://usenet.klaas.ca/groupsearch/
however I know that the results of this are not particularly reliable
(for example, that site claims that uk.politics.rural is not carried
on Supernews, but I see that there are non-crossposted posts in the
group that originated there, so this is obviously an error).
Other than that, there is no particularly easy way; if a site doesn't
publish its active file in some downloadable form, and you don't have
access to it directly, then there's no way to tell directly whether it
carries any given group.
Gareth> Is there a list of contacts taht can be used to ensure that
Gareth> propogation can be carried forwards?
not really
Gareth> I see that there are movements now to encourage uk.* groups
Gareth> to certains ISPs
that's putting it backwards, really. In the past, it was more or less a
given that sites that took the whole of uk.* would auto-add the group
from the control message, and sites that took selected parts of uk.*
would have the control message automatically emailed to the site admin
who would decide to add it or not.
The tendency in recent years for new groups _not_ to be automatically
created is due quite simply to the incompetence (usually), or in some
cases inexperience or disinterest/apathy, of people responsible for
operating many news sites. (It's worth noting that most of the big
commercial providers make their money primarily from the binaries
groups, and few of them take any care at all with their handling of
text newsgroups.)
There are, intentionally, a number of ways that a site can automatically
pick up new uk.* groups; the (digitally signed) newgroup control message,
the (also digitally signed) semi-regular checkgroups message, automatically
downloading the current list from the website, synchronising against the
active file at isc.org, or synchronising against another site that uses
one of these methods.
(I checked up on the specific group mentioned; use of any of the above
methods would have picked it up.)
If an ISP chooses to ignore all of these options, then there is little
that anyone else can do; direct complaints from users is the only
thing that tends to have any effect at all.
Gareth> but is there any rule/preferecnce/request neede to ensure
Gareth> speedy propogation to all ISPs?
ISPs that add groups only at user request do not, as a general rule, pay
much attention to people who are not users.
Gareth> If not, is there a list of providers that can be contacted to
Gareth> encourage propogation (other than stsandard ISP contact
Gareth> addresses)?
no
It's worth noting that Usenet sites have essentially no influence on
each other when it comes to issues purely between the site and its
users (such as what groups are carried). Also, for the most part, it's
usually no longer necessary for sites upstream of a given site to add
a newsgroup before it becomes available at the downstream site.
(notable exception: sites that use so-called "suck" feeds are
completely at the mercy of the upstream site's choice of groups).
Gareth> Just out of curiousity, I'm trying to work out... What could
Gareth> you have wasted time trying to do?
write the above response (especially the bit about checking the uk.p.r
group specifically in all the relevent places).
Andrew Gierth
>On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:22:25 +0000, Peter J King
><shil...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Doing what? You've asked which newsgroup, and when you found out,
>> you defended your question. Was there something else that might
>> have taken time? Actualy responding to the posting in a
>> constructive way, for example?
exactly: I had a longer response in mind, but chose not to spend time
on it without the original poster's response.
Paul> Doesn't take the wannabe committee members long to get a Ghod
Paul> complex, does it...
I've been on the committee for three years, and running news servers
for much longer than that. Actually having to work at keeping this
madhouse we call Usenet going gives one a different perspective on the
kind of idiocy that infests Usenet meta-discussion (this is not unique
to uk.net.news.* by any means, virtually all other groups in which
group creation is discussed have similar problems).
If I really had a "Ghod complex", I'd be running my server my own way
and ignoring the Committee and unnc/unnm (and probably contributing to
the problem that the original poster was commenting on). I happen to
think that my users are better served by not doing it that way,
despite the various flaws in the uk.* committee system (many of which
do not seem to be fixable without introducing worse flaws).
Peter J King
> >On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:22:25 +0000, Peter J King
> ><shil...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> >> Doing what? You've asked which newsgroup, and when you found out,
> >> you defended your question. Was there something else that might
> >> have taken time? Actualy responding to the posting in a
> >> constructive way, for example?
>
> exactly: I had a longer response in mind, but chose not to spend time
> on it without the original poster's response.
And when the question was given the obvous answer, that longer response
just slipped your mind? Or are you really stamping your little foot and
saying: "*He* said it first, so *he's* got to answer my question"?
I've experienced the u.n.n.c group before, and the level of "debate" was
if anything lower than one finds on many other Usenet groups. I suppose
there's a certain comfort in this evidence that nothing's changed.
PJK
John Briggs
news:Pine.OSF.4.44.021120...@ermine.ox.ac.uk...
In which case, don't look at u.n.n.m - it's much worse! ("tisn't!", "tis
too!")
John Briggs
John Briggs
John Briggs
Gareth Crawshaw
> >>>>> "Gareth" == Gareth Crawshaw <Gareth_...@nospam.com> writes:
>
> Gareth> I purposely didn't specify *ukpr* as I intended the question
> Gareth> to be generic (but that I had one specifically in mind)...
>
> The generic answers are:
[snip]
> Gareth> Just out of curiousity, I'm trying to work out... What could
> Gareth> you have wasted time trying to do?
> write the above response (especially the bit about checking the uk.p.r
> group specifically in all the relevent places).
Ah, I see now... Sorry if my reply seemed glib: wasn't meant to be - didn't
know that you could/would go looking for uk.p.r... Anyway, lengthy answer
(much appreciated) deserves several readings... first impressions seem to be
that I need to go on a mailing campaign to news administrators around the
world... oh joy ;-) It now looks like the RFD was the easy part!
Gareth
Neil Ellwood
> ntlworld-News is one of the ones that doesn't have uk.politics.rural.
>
> John Briggs
Why not request them to get it.
--
Neil
Neil Ellwood
> ntlworld-News is one of the ones that doesn't have uk.politics.rural.
>
> John Briggs
Gareth Crawshaw
"Neil Ellwood" <c...@netspammatters.co.uk> wrote in message
news:pan.2002.11.20....@netspammatters.co.uk.mirrorpost...
(At about 15:00GMT, they received an email from me doing just that...)
Andrew Gierth
John> ntlworld-News is one of the ones that doesn't have
John> uk.politics.rural.
I don't think offhand that I have any contacts there. Do they have a
stated policy regarding group additions? e.g. adding only on request,
or syncing to the ISC list, or whatever? Do they give the appearance
of caring about the quality of their news service, or not?
the kat
> ntlworld-News is one of the ones that doesn't have uk.politics.rural.
>
> John Briggs
Which is odd, because they usually get uk* groups automatically.
Or so it would seem, all the others created over the last few months have
been there very quickly.
--
kat
>^..^<
Tony Evans
>>>>>> "John" == John Briggs <john.b...@ntlworld.com> writes:
>
> John> ntlworld-News is one of the ones that doesn't have
> John> uk.politics.rural.
>I don't think offhand that I have any contacts there. Do they have a
>stated policy regarding group additions? e.g. adding only on request,
>or syncing to the ISC list, or whatever? Do they give the appearance
>of caring about the quality of their news service, or not?
In the past they have indicated that they do no honour control messages and
simply synch with some source, there was confusion over which source that
was. They managed to rmgroup a significant number of uk.* groups due to
the process failing, and had to re-add them, minus any history.
--
Tony Evans http://www.darkstorm.org/tony
Read uk.net.news.announce to find out what's happening in the uk.* hierarchy.
Check out http://www.usenet.org.uk to find out more about the uk.* hierarchy.
Do not feed the trolls. Can't find a thread that interests you? Start one.
Tony Towers
> On 20 Nov 2002 02:24:28 +0000, Andrew Gierth
> <and...@erlenstar.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >I've been on the committee for three years, and running news servers
> >for much longer than that.
>
> And therefore in an ideal position to answer both generically and
> specifically. Something you chose not to do.
See Message-ID: <87of8lk...@erlenstar.demon.co.uk>, which was
posted a good four hours before your complaint. Sorry, Paul, but
you're being a bit of an arse here. Having some experience in
networking myself I know it's possible to waste hours tracing down the
information you thought someone was asking for, only to find that it
wasn't what they wanted at all, and a simple question on your part
would have established this in the first place.
There *are* timewasters and associated idiots aplenty here and in
unnm; Andrew Gierth isn't one of them.
--
Jamie: Have you thought up some clever plan, Doctor?
The Doctor: Yes Jamie, I believe I have.
Jamie: What are you going to do?
The Doctor: Bung a rock at it.
Gareth Crawshaw
"Robin Carmody" <ro...@elidor.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:27904a9a.02111...@posting.google.com...
> "Gareth Crawshaw" <Gareth_...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:<arbti2$h4vjq$1...@ID-162777.news.dfncis.de>...
[snip]
> Freeserve must be contacted as quickly as possible.
Just had an email back from Freeserve (or Energis Newsmaster)...
>> As the original proponant of the group, I have received a number of
emails from peple telling me that they are >unable to post to it because
their news porivder doesn't yet carry it. "news.freeserve.co.uk" is one
(among many >ISPs' servers) that has been mentioned to me.
>
>User error then I'm afraid. The group would have been added at the newgroup
>message, and made available to users in the early hours of the next
morning,
>with any posts that had been made in the interim intact.
>
>> I am not sure what the procedures are for Freeserve concerning USENET
group propogation, so if you could let >>me know what steps, if any, I need
to take to resolve this issue, I would be very grateful.
>
>No steps required.
>It's a uk.* groups, and like most systems we trust PGP signed control
>messages, issued for managed hierarchies.
Just looking at the "news.freeserve.co.uk" server, uk.p.r doesn't appear to
be there... The address of the newsmaster is newsm...@energis.com and/or
newsm...@freeserve.com if any others want to take it up with them:
although freeserve is my isp, I do not use their news servers... it might
get more attention if its users wrote to them?...
Gareth
Eusa
<Gareth_...@nospam.com> wrote:
>Just had an email back from Freeserve (or Energis Newsmaster)...
And I had already contributed to this thread as well.
<snip reposted email>
>Just looking at the "news.freeserve.co.uk" server, uk.p.r doesn't appear to
>be there... The address of the newsmaster is newsm...@energis.com and/or
>newsm...@freeserve.com if any others want to take it up with them:
>although freeserve is my isp, I do not use their news servers... it might
>get more attention if its users wrote to them?...
Looking at the latest thread in the group (Crossposting) there are two
posts from Freeserve users (Gilbert and Hamish MacBeth).
or more straight from the servers mouth...
telnet news.freeserve.com nntp
Trying 195.92.193.157...
Connected to news.freeserve.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
200 news8.svr.pol.co.uk InterNetNews NNRP server INN 1.7.2 08-Dec-1997
ready (posting ok).
GROUP uk.politics.rural
211 451 1 452 uk.politics.rural
or
list (or list active)
...
uk.politics.rural 0000000453 0000000001 y
...
or
list newsgroups
...
uk.politics.rural A rural-centric debate of government plans and
policy
...
Gareth Crawshaw
"Eusa" <eusa...@coresystems.org.uk> wrote in message
news:ul10uucc27kc9ds58...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:29:03 -0000, "Gareth Crawshaw"
> <Gareth_...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >Just had an email back from Freeserve (or Energis Newsmaster)...
>
> And I had already contributed to this thread as well.
Sorry, I know... there was an overlap - Iasked before your post and the
reply to me came after... seems also that OE isn't as good at informing
people of new groups as it could be... So if anyone else is out the using OE
and cannot see the group, try reseetting the NG list, see if appears...
Gareth
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Gareth_...@nospam.com "Gareth Crawshaw" writes:
So all this moaning, pontificating, and accusations that Freeserve don't
create uk.* groups was all down to YOUR being too fuckwitted to use a
proper newsreader, and instead relying upon that piece of crap known as
Pukeout Excess, was it?
You don't DESERVE any news.
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} b...@dsl.co.uk
"We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are
untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them".
George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919
Gareth Crawshaw
"Brian {Hamilton Kelly}" <b...@dsl.co.uk> wrote in message
news:103850...@dsl.co.uk...
> In article <arp2dm$kjlqf$1...@ID-162777.news.dfncis.de>
> Gareth_...@nospam.com "Gareth Crawshaw" writes:
>
> > "Eusa" <eusa...@coresystems.org.uk> wrote in message
> > news:ul10uucc27kc9ds58...@4ax.com...
> > > On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:29:03 -0000, "Gareth Crawshaw"
> > > <Gareth_...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Just had an email back from Freeserve (or Energis Newsmaster)...
> > >
> > > And I had already contributed to this thread as well.
> >
> > Sorry, I know... there was an overlap - Iasked before your post and the
> > reply to me came after... seems also that OE isn't as good at informing
> > people of new groups as it could be... So if anyone else is out the
using OE
> > and cannot see the group, try reseetting the NG list, see if appears...
>
> So all this moaning, pontificating, and accusations that Freeserve don't
> create uk.* groups was all down to YOUR being too fuckwitted to use a
> proper newsreader, and instead relying upon that piece of crap known as
> Pukeout Excess, was it?
>
> You don't DESERVE any news.
(trolling aside...) That wouldn't be an anti-microsoft thing would it? AND
IF I REALLY WANT TO GET MY POINT ACROSS BY WRITING IN UPPER CASE BECAUSE
THAT GIVES LACK OF CONTENT THAT MUCH MORE VOLUME WHILE I JUMP ON A BANDWAGON
BECAUSE I DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE TO ADD TO ANYTHING PEOPLE MIGHT
BE TRYING TO SORT OUT, which I don't... a genuine mistake given that OE
usually informs users that the newsgroup list contain new groups... A
newsreader is a tool used to deliver a service - if that tool serves your
purpose 99.9% of the time, then why should anyone suspect it of failing? I
did receive a number of emails about the propagation issue. I wrote to 4
news providers, all of which (except one) has answered. The one that didn't
(google) now carry that group. They didn't originally, but they informed me
that nature would takes its course... Google hasn't replied (after a couple
of emails) and still doesn't list the group... Most people wouldn't be so
concerned about new groups appearing in their list, but as I was by and
large responsible for the creation of this group (uk.p.r), I was keen to see
the propagation happen as quickly as possible.
Who coined the name "Pukeout Express"? Damned sure it wasn't you... or as I
said, jumping on the bandwagon (because it's "rad" and "up there" and "cool"
and "with it"?) Have you written a newsreader recently? If so, send me a lnk
to a copy so I can evaluate it... I evaluate a substantial amount of
software (part of my job) and discard about 85% of it as crap. What,
exactly, is your complaint about OE? Why is it an app that is for people
that do not deserve news? Having tried many other readers, I like OE. I like
the tree view and given that I do little kill-filing because I believe that
when you start ignoring what others are saying, you cannot see how they as
people and their arguments mature is a disservice to both them and
yourself...
Anyway, my answer over. So now it's your turn (if you can keep your answer
to lower case and try to answer without resorting to name calling and
pouting... most socially and mentally aware people grow out of that sort of
reaction after they grow out of the school playground... come to think of
it, have you lived out your teens yet? just a thought...)
Lastly. Microsoft? I owe 10 years of employemnt to Microsoft. I daresay you
are running an MS platform there. I develop for that, I currently develop
and have in the past developed for thousands of people using that
platform... Hundreds of millions of people around the world use MS
systems... MS has brought the likes of Usenet to the millions of people that
use it? So... Are you anti Microsoft, or one of their apps? If it is the
"pukebox express" (or whatever the hell you called it) you are talking
about, back up your slating of it...
Gareth
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Gareth_...@nospam.com "Gareth Crawshaw" writes:
> Who coined the name "Pukeout Express"? Damned sure it wasn't you... or as I
OTOH, I don't believe I'd seen anyone else call that abortion by those
particular words previously to my using them. BICBW.
> said, jumping on the bandwagon (because it's "rad" and "up there" and "cool"
> and "with it"?) Have you written a newsreader recently? If so, send me a lnk
No: not recently. The last time I did anything to do with "writing a
newsreader" would have been ca.1991. OTOH, I *have* written a news
server within the past three years: but that's purely for local
consumption.
> to a copy so I can evaluate it... I evaluate a substantial amount of
> software (part of my job) and discard about 85% of it as crap. What,
> exactly, is your complaint about OE? Why is it an app that is for people
My main complaint about Pukeout Excess is that it contains more than 200
instances in which it violates various established standards and
recommendations. Moreover, whereas those employees of Microsoft that
have responsibility for the TCP/IP stack are capable of taking on board
criticism and endeavour to ensure adherence to standards, when violations
of the same are communicated to them, the Outlook authors maintain a
rabid "not invented here" attitude and refuse entirely to correct their
errors.
> Lastly. Microsoft? I owe 10 years of employemnt to Microsoft. I daresay you
> are running an MS platform there. I develop for that, I currently develop
No I'm not running ANY Billyshit software on this computer (although
there are other machines in the household that use this for
dial-on-demand connection to the Internet for themselves via our LAN).
If I were running M$, that connection could not be guaranteed 24/365.
> and have in the past developed for thousands of people using that
> platform... Hundreds of millions of people around the world use MS
> systems... MS has brought the likes of Usenet to the millions of people that
> use it? So... Are you anti Microsoft, or one of their apps? If it is the
> "pukebox express" (or whatever the hell you called it) you are talking
> about, back up your slating of it...
Some 3--4 years ago, Richard Clayton (of Demon and Turnpike fame)
compiled that list of over two hundred standards' violations committed by
your "newsreader of choice". One of M$'s own consultants (whom they
regularly flew out to Redmond from the UK at vast expense to themselves),
who was their adviser on the errors in their TCP/IP stack undertook to
communicate the Outlook issues to the appropriate department. He did
so, although the TCP/IP folks at Redmond told him that he was unlikely to
achieve any success since "they're a strange bunch". And indeed, all the
faults were totally ignored, and perpetuated into more modern editions of
the code.
Thomas Lee
<b...@dsl.co.uk> writes
>My main complaint about Pukeout Excess is that it contains more than
>200 instances in which it violates various established standards and
>recommendations.
My understanding was that MS has released a patch fixing many of these.
It took a considerable amount of time and effort to get MS's attention
on this issue, but some bugs at least have been fixed.
> Moreover, whereas those employees of Microsoft that have
>responsibility for the TCP/IP stack are capable of taking on board
>criticism and endeavour to ensure adherence to standards, when
>violations of the same are communicated to them, the Outlook authors
>maintain a rabid "not invented here" attitude and refuse entirely to
>correct their errors.
First, I think it fairly important that you separate the TCP/IP stack
from the applications that run on top of that stack. OE is an
application and is produced by a totally different group to the one
producing the TCP/IP stack. I've worked with this latter group
extensively, and while there are some interesting features, the TCP/IP
stack _is_ RFC compliant (although I accept that there are some minor
quibbles, such as DHCP broadcasts on multihomed DHCP servers).
OE is a different kettle of fish. As some long serving readers will
remember my attempts several years ago to submit a bug list to MS and
the utter lack of success that resulted. Well, times have changed a bit
and OE's failings have now been seen by senior execs at MS.
IF, as you claim, you have a current list of 200 bugs, please forward
them to me and I'll try again to pass them on.
Now MS's recent form in actually spending dev time on OE still does not
mean I'll use it. I use a good newsreader...
Thomas
--
Thomas Lee
(t...@psp.co.uk)
Dave J.
Lee' wrote:
> OE is an
>application and is produced by a totally different group to the one
>producing the TCP/IP stack. I've worked with this latter group
>extensively, and while there are some interesting features, the TCP/IP
>stack _is_ RFC compliant (although I accept that there are some minor
>quibbles, such as DHCP broadcasts on multihomed DHCP servers).
The RST on attempted connect to unused port? Not saying it matters,
but not RFC compliant afaik. (?) Used at an early stage of the remote
fingerprinting of an OS, again afaik which isn't far..
--
Dave Johnson : req...@freeuk.com
Late replies all round, I've finally fallen offline :(
Dave J.
{Hamilton Kelly}' wrote:
>No: not recently. The last time I did anything to do with "writing a
>newsreader" would have been ca.1991. OTOH, I *have* written a news
>server within the past three years: but that's purely for local
>consumption.
Purely out of interest Brian, what language(s) do you commonly use?
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
req...@freeuk.com "Dave J." writes:
> MsgID<103878...@dsl.co.uk> inside of uk.net.news.config, 'Brian
> {Hamilton Kelly}' wrote:
>
> >No: not recently. The last time I did anything to do with "writing a
> >newsreader" would have been ca.1991. OTOH, I *have* written a news
> >server within the past three years: but that's purely for local
> >consumption.
>
> Purely out of interest Brian, what language(s) do you commonly use?
Well, the newsreader code was written in C for the VAX; the server is
written in Object REXX (for OS/2, but ORexx exists on many platforms).
Then again, I teach both C (and C++) and Java at work. Used to teach Ada
too. In my 38 years of employment in computing, I have used some thirty
or more languages (and that's just the high-level ones, without counting
assemblers and machine-code).
I *like* Object REXX; it's great for the "quick and dirty" and "rapid
prototyping" development models :-)
Thomas Lee
<req...@freeuk.com> writes
>The RST on attempted connect to unused port? Not saying it matters, but
>not RFC compliant afaik. (?) Used at an early stage of the remote
>fingerprinting of an OS, again afaik which isn't far..
Like I tried to say - if you can provide me with details, based on the
later OSs (eg XPSP1 or later) I'll gladly pass it on.
Thomas Lee
<hu...@nospam.huge.org.uk> writes
>In article <TT6+Y2Nl...@qa.com>, Thomas Lee <t...@psp.co.uk> writes:
>
>[6 lines snipped]
>
>>My understanding was that MS has released a patch fixing many of these.
>>It took a considerable amount of time and effort to get MS's attention
>>on this issue, but some bugs at least have been fixed.
>
>still broken, the focus point is still at the top of articles and
>the "begin " bug is still there.
Please do not get me started on OE. :-) I utterly agree it has some
issues that a sensible developer would have fixed a long time ago.
>>First, I think it fairly important that you separate the TCP/IP stack
>>from the applications that run on top of that stack. OE is an
>>application and is produced by a totally different group to the one
>>producing the TCP/IP stack.
> ^^^^^^^^^
>
>Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha. SmallNFloppy stole the BSD stack.
The current TCP/IP stack is not the BSD stack. HTH
Geoff Berrow
following:
>Please do not get me started on OE. :-) I utterly agree it has some
>issues that a sensible developer would have fixed a long time ago.
OE? I'd love a copy of OE at work. We have to use Outlook...
--
Geoff Berrow
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/
Thomas Lee
<$b...@ckdog.co.uk> writes
>Message-ID: <I$2ssTL7+...@qa.com> from Thomas Lee contained the
>following:
>
>>Please do not get me started on OE. :-) I utterly agree it has some
>>issues that a sensible developer would have fixed a long time ago.
>
>OE? I'd love a copy of OE at work.
It should be built in with the later version of IE. Whether you regard
this as a good thing is a different matter
> We have to use Outlook...
I'm using Outlook 11 and love it as a corporate mail client despite it's
pre-release nature. It's been a real help to me in my day job and
addresses most of the problems I've had with earlier version. On the
other hand, it would probably be a lousy Internet news or mail client.
OE is better than Outlook - and for many people is adequate. It even has
a few really useful features missing from Turnpike.
Thomas Lee
<hu...@nospam.huge.org.uk> writes
>>The current TCP/IP stack is not the BSD stack. HTH
>
I'm pretty certain that the stack that came with NT 3.1 was not a
complete MS product - it may well have been BSD derived. Written using
streams support, it was replaced in later versions with a total
re-write. IIRC, the basic stack was rebuilt for NT4 and Windows 95.
Later versions have been heavily tweaked for performance (eg to handle
gigabit ethernet) and to extend the capabilities of the stack (eg the
ATM extensions with Windows 2000).
I do not have source code access to the networking stack, however. So I
can not say for absolute certainty. I suspect that even with the code,
I'd struggle to prove things one way or the other - but that's a
different story.
However, I'd be more than willing to bet a few beers. ;-)
Chris Croughton
<t...@psp.co.uk> wrote:
>I'm using Outlook 11 and love it as a corporate mail client despite it's
>pre-release nature. It's been a real help to me in my day job and
>addresses most of the problems I've had with earlier version. On the
>other hand, it would probably be a lousy Internet news or mail client.
>OE is better than Outlook - and for many people is adequate. It even has
>a few really useful features missing from Turnpike.
I never thought I'd say it, but I'd rather have Outlook (/not/ Express)
than Lotus Notes which we have to use at work. Heck, I'd rather telnet
into the POP/IMAp/SMTP servers...
Chris C
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
> I'm pretty certain that the stack that came with NT 3.1 was not a
> complete MS product - it may well have been BSD derived. Written using
> streams support, it was replaced in later versions with a total
> re-write. IIRC, the basic stack was rebuilt for NT4 and Windows 95.
> Later versions have been heavily tweaked for performance (eg to handle
> gigabit ethernet) and to extend the capabilities of the stack (eg the
> ATM extensions with Windows 2000).
When I last heard of someone looking (and admittedly this was pre-XP),
then applying the "strings" utility against various DLLs and other parts
of the M$ stack and associated utilities found a number of mentions
saying "Copyright of the Regents of the University of California... 1982"
or similar.
Dave J.
Lee' wrote:
Good grief, you don't think I want them to *fix* it do you??
a) why help MS remove a valid complaint against their sluggish
bloatware mostrosity of an OS
b) why remove a very useful way to identify the OS on a target system?
--
Dave Johnson : req...@freeuk.com
- My Apologies for late replies all round, my machine was lightening'ed
- My Thanks to the kind hearted useneteer who *gave* me a replacement.
Dave J.
{Hamilton Kelly}' wrote:
>In article <uld1vuojn2g4qnm2c...@4ax.com>
> req...@freeuk.com "Dave J." writes:
>
>> MsgID<103878...@dsl.co.uk> inside of uk.net.news.config, 'Brian
>> {Hamilton Kelly}' wrote:
>>
>> >No: not recently. The last time I did anything to do with "writing a
>> >newsreader" would have been ca.1991. OTOH, I *have* written a news
>> >server within the past three years: but that's purely for local
>> >consumption.
>>
>> Purely out of interest Brian, what language(s) do you commonly use?
>
>Well, the newsreader code was written in C for the VAX; the server is
>written in Object REXX (for OS/2, but ORexx exists on many platforms).
>Then again, I teach both C (and C++) and Java at work. Used to teach Ada
>too. In my 38 years of employment in computing, I have used some thirty
>or more languages (and that's just the high-level ones, without counting
>assemblers and machine-code).
Thanks. Too far OT for these NGs but interesting that you
differentiate between assembly and machine code.
>I *like* Object REXX; it's great for the "quick and dirty" and "rapid
>prototyping" development models :-)
I've heard people praise it, never had the patience to look.
Seeing others praise PERL has greatly reduced the impact of such
commendations. :(
Wish there was a one stop URL or book that would give me a wide
ranging overview of the various languages and the philosphies behind
them. I'm too much of a latecomer to do any more than focus on one
language that I think _can_ do anything that is required, regardless
of being the most efficient for the purpose.
Pete Fenelon
>
> Wish there was a one stop URL or book that would give me a wide
> ranging overview of the various languages and the philosphies behind
> them. I'm too much of a latecomer to do any more than focus on one
> language that I think _can_ do anything that is required, regardless
> of being the most efficient for the purpose.
>
A book I quite enjoyed as a student was "Programming Languages" by
Allen B Tucker. It's not terribly deep, but it discusses the syntax
and (informally) semantics of most of the commonly-used high level
languages around when it was written in the mid 80s, and shows their
strengths and weaknesses by implementing a number of case studies
- ISTR it covers FORTRAN, COBOL, Pascal, C, Modula-2, Ada, Prolog,
Lisp, APL, PL/1 and SNOBOL. Some of it's out of date - the C is
pre-standardisation, and Ada is -83 not -95, but the principles are
explained quite well. It's a little too early to cover object-orientation
(something on Simula, C++ or Smalltalk would be nice). It also
misses out on scripting/command/macro languages.
The "History of Programming Langauges" (HOPL) conference proceeedings
are good reading, too.
The best introduction to the philosophy and use of any programming
language I've seen is by a unn* regular and Committee member - Lindsey
and van der Meulen's "Informal Introduction to Algol-68" just a pity
Algol-68 implementations are thin on the ground.
pete
--
pe...@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB