Live Gig For Charity!
Claire Duncan
The Old Mill in Northfield is holding a 12 hour gig during the BBC's Music
Live Week.
There will be 10 bands playing throughout the day - Saturday 27th May,
headlined by The Trevor Burton Band & After the Flood.
It's £2.00 admission which will be donated to the Birmingham Air Ambulance
(also the bands are donating their earnings).
More info: www.music-at-the-mill.co.uk
steve_cobham
Haven't done any charity gigs for a long time - no particular reason,
just haven't been in the right band in the right place at the right
time, but one band I was in used to do quite a few - Amnesty, Child
Line, etc - and although the idea of going and playing free for worthy
causes is fine, the reality is often different.
Some charity gigs seem to be opportunities for some bands to "pull
rank" and the organizers who generously donated their time can't
really organize some of the gigs properly because they don't
understand things like running orders, changeovers and sound checks.
I recall one occasion when the bands got 5 minutes for a changeover
*and* a soundcheck - obviously this didn't float at all and some acts
found that their set was cut down to a fraction of its length to
ensure that all bands got to play. There was another gig - open air -
where someone's friend of a friend of an uncle's cousin - summat like
that anyway - provided a PA which weighed in at about 50W with two
small speakers.
I'm not saying that this is the case with the particular gig above or
all such gigs, just that sometimes the donation of one's time and
energy is marred by poor organization. As well as the bands giving
their services free, you need the gig infrastructure pitching in there
as well.
Steve.
================================================
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================================================
drury@schema.freeserve.co.uk Phil Drury
<Steve Cobham> wrote in message news:9REpOcmvjYlpuY...@4ax.com...
> Haven't done any charity gigs for a long time - no particular reason,
> just haven't been in the right band in the right place at the right
> time, but one band I was in used to do quite a few - Amnesty, Child
> Line, etc - and although the idea of going and playing free for worthy
> causes is fine, the reality is often different.
You run a risk of appearing churlish or mean if you criticise
'charidee' gigs but Steve is absolutely right. Whilst the people
organising them often work damn hard and do their very best,
small, multi-band gigs can be a nightmare to play. Furthermore,
if afterwards you sit down and do some cold hard maths it
sometimes becomes clear that the biggest donors to the the
'good cause' were the bands who played for nothing, rather
than the punters and ticket money.
IMO these gigs stand the best chance of working if either
(i) there's only one band, or (ii) they're headlined by a
name act who bring their own PA & crew inc. Stage Manager,
with whom the local Ego Queen/s can't argue........
Phil D
John Rimmer
news:8gb7rr$318$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> <Steve Cobham> wrote in message
news:9REpOcmvjYlpuY...@4ax.com...
>
> > Haven't done any charity gigs for a long time - no particular reason,
> > just haven't been in the right band in the right place at the right
> > time, but one band I was in used to do quite a few - Amnesty, Child
> > Line, etc - and although the idea of going and playing free for worthy
> > causes is fine, the reality is often different.
>
> You run a risk of appearing churlish or mean if you criticise
> 'charidee' gigs but Steve is absolutely right. Whilst the people
> organising them often work damn hard and do their very best,
> small, multi-band gigs can be a nightmare to play. Furthermore,
> if afterwards you sit down and do some cold hard maths it
> sometimes becomes clear that the biggest donors to the the
> 'good cause' were the bands who played for nothing, rather
> than the punters and ticket money.
>
And that's a fact! When you weigh up the time, effort, rows and general
pissing about it hardly seems worth it. You may only be on stage for half
an hour but you actually can end up donating several hours of your time
which as Phil says means you're making by far the biggest donation. You can
bet your life none of the punters who turn up are donating a days pay. I
think it's reasonable to expect 50-75% of the usual fee.
John
http://crazytrain.future.easyspace.com
steve_cobham
dr...@schema.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
><Steve Cobham> wrote in message news:9REpOcmvjYlpuY...@4ax.com...
>
>> Haven't done any charity gigs for a long time - no particular reason,
>> just haven't been in the right band in the right place at the right
>> time, but one band I was in used to do quite a few - Amnesty, Child
>> Line, etc - and although the idea of going and playing free for worthy
>> causes is fine, the reality is often different.
>
>You run a risk of appearing churlish or mean if you criticise
>'charidee' gigs but Steve is absolutely right. Whilst the people
>organising them often work damn hard and do their very best,
>small, multi-band gigs can be a nightmare to play.
With the band I mentioned, we got to the point where we used to find
out a bit more about the organization side of things before we
committed ourselves. If you're going to do a gig for nowt, at least it
ought to be a pleasant experience and not a logistical nightmare.
I don't know what the motives of all musicians are who give their
services to charity for free but I just do it to give something back,
like I do when I stick my hand in my pocket whenever I see a
collecting box. Since the Lottery, my hand goes in there a bit more
often.
I used to reckon that charities were just a symptom of government
underfunding and that their existence just made it easier for H.M.
Government to wriggle out of having to pay for decent services or
overseas funding. I suppose I still do, but that doesn't help the
disabled, the sick and starving or deprived.
OTOH I have known people move heaven and earth to get certain charity
gigs for the exposure and/or publicity. Furthermore, the demand for
"expenses" that comes from certain bands for doing charity gigs is
also not unknown.
Strange stuff, charity.......it's sometimes a moot point who actually
benefits from it in the long run.
>Furthermore,
>if afterwards you sit down and do some cold hard maths it
>sometimes becomes clear that the biggest donors to the the
>'good cause' were the bands who played for nothing, rather
>than the punters and ticket money.
Which doesn't really help raise money, if the ticket sales are poor.
>
>IMO these gigs stand the best chance of working if either
>(i) there's only one band, or (ii) they're headlined by a
>name act who bring their own PA & crew inc. Stage Manager,
>with whom the local Ego Queen/s can't argue........
That'd work!
drury@schema.freeserve.co.uk Phil Drury
<Steve Cobham> wrote in message news:rTkpObCy5aAYi3...@4ax.com...
snip
> Since the Lottery, my hand goes in there a bit more
> often.
What, since your big win, you mean..... ;-)
> >IMO these gigs stand the best chance of working if either
> >(i) there's only one band, or (ii) they're headlined by a
> >name act who bring their own PA & crew inc. Stage Manager,
> >with whom the local Ego Queen/s can't argue........
>
> That'd work!
Best run charity gig I was ever involved with (not playing, roadie
for a mate's band) was a Rock Against Racism event about mmbmle
years ago - headlined by The Ruts, XTC and Misty in Roots, using
Misty's monster PA & crew.
Ran like b****y clockwork. You didn't argue with those blokes.....
Phil D
steve_cobham
<john.s...@umist.ac.uk> wrote:
>"Phil Drury" <phil dr...@schema.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:8gb7rr$318$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>> <Steve Cobham> wrote in message
>news:9REpOcmvjYlpuY...@4ax.com...
>>
>> > Haven't done any charity gigs for a long time - no particular reason,
>> > just haven't been in the right band in the right place at the right
>> > time, but one band I was in used to do quite a few - Amnesty, Child
>> > Line, etc - and although the idea of going and playing free for worthy
>> > causes is fine, the reality is often different.
>>
>> You run a risk of appearing churlish or mean if you criticise
>> 'charidee' gigs but Steve is absolutely right. Whilst the people
>> organising them often work damn hard and do their very best,
>> small, multi-band gigs can be a nightmare to play. Furthermore,
>> if afterwards you sit down and do some cold hard maths it
>> sometimes becomes clear that the biggest donors to the the
>> 'good cause' were the bands who played for nothing, rather
>> than the punters and ticket money.
>>
>
>And that's a fact! When you weigh up the time, effort, rows and general
>pissing about it hardly seems worth it. You may only be on stage for half
>an hour but you actually can end up donating several hours of your time
>which as Phil says means you're making by far the biggest donation.
But that also applies to regular gigs a lot of the time. Let's
see.......
Leave home at six for gig and get home at two in the morning - a not
uncommon scenario. Eight hours' work - i.e. effort spent to make the
gig happen - say, nets £50 each, less expenses - not a sparkling
hourly rate. Better than getting nothing, but then how many people
actually rely totally on gig income? I don't know about anyone else,
but at this point in time it supplements my teaching and also gives me
"pocket money".
I agree that everyone is worth their hire but unless it's your sole
source of income and/or support, the money is secondary to the
playing. Sure, it doesn't help anyone if bands accept crap fees and
thereby encourage bookers to continue offering them, but for many
people it's a sort of "paid hobby". Again, sit down and do the maths
and most people'll find that they're lucky to break even, especially
after buying gear.
>You can
>bet your life none of the punters who turn up are donating a days pay.
A very safe bet, John.
> I
>think it's reasonable to expect 50-75% of the usual fee.
That's a matter totally up to the individual.
Personally, I don't mind getting zero if it's for a good cause and the
gig's organized so that I can play with the minimum of hassle. Then
again, I wouldn't want to do it too often - it can make you appear far
too willing to play for peanuts if you often play for free. It can
"devalue" the band as far as the paying public is concerned.
I don't suppose that Milton Keynes is unique in having had a few bands
in its history who seemed to crop up at every free open-air "festival"
and charity gig and went down well, too, but couldn't get arrested
when it came to the punters actually paying to see them.
Steve Dix
<Mr....@lineone.net> wrote:
>All Live Music Fans,
>The Old Mill in Northfield is holding a 12 hour gig during the BBC's Music
>Live Week.
>There will be 10 bands playing throughout the day - Saturday 27th May,
>headlined by The Trevor Burton Band & After the Flood.
>It's £2.00 admission which will be donated to the Birmingham Air Ambulance
>(also the bands are donating their earnings).
>More info: www.music-at-the-mill.co.uk
>
>
1) Crosspost. Very naughty.
2) Don't get me started on either Mr. Burton or Northfield. Both are
very unpleasant memories.
Steve Dix ==================================================
http://www.snorty.net/ Weekly Mini-car cartoon
http://stage.vitaminic.co.uk/the_simpletons/ Hear our MP3s
Steve Dix
<john.s...@umist.ac.uk> wrote:
>"Phil Drury" <phil dr...@schema.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:8gb7rr$318$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>And that's a fact! When you weigh up the time, effort, rows and general
>pissing about it hardly seems worth it. You may only be on stage for half
>an hour but you actually can end up donating several hours of your time
>which as Phil says means you're making by far the biggest donation. You can
>bet your life none of the punters who turn up are donating a days pay. I
>think it's reasonable to expect 50-75% of the usual fee.
>
I always remember the Charity gig at the Digbeth Railway arms we did.
Three bands, including mine (who organised it) playing for nowt. Made
80 quid for Birmingham Children's Hospital.
The soundman demanded payment. WOuldn't have minded if he had
actually earned it instead of sitting at the board making snide
remarks and smoking pot.
steve_cobham
wrote:
>On Mon, 22 May 2000 11:33:01 +0100, "Claire Duncan"
><Mr....@lineone.net> wrote:
>
>>All Live Music Fans,
>>The Old Mill in Northfield is holding a 12 hour gig during the BBC's Music
>>Live Week.
>>There will be 10 bands playing throughout the day - Saturday 27th May,
>>headlined by The Trevor Burton Band & After the Flood.
>>It's £2.00 admission which will be donated to the Birmingham Air Ambulance
>>(also the bands are donating their earnings).
>>More info: www.music-at-the-mill.co.uk
>>
>>
>
>1) Crosspost. Very naughty.
Well, it is for Cheridy ;-)
>
>2) Don't get me started on either Mr. Burton or Northfield. Both are
>very unpleasant memories.
I've never met the guy, but a few people I know who've worked with him
have some stories to tell.
BTW did you know that Carl Wayne now sings with the Hollies?
As for Northfield, I haven't even heard of the place and there's three
of 'em in the road atlas. The West Midlands one?
Anyone else doing anything for the Music Live thing? "My" band the
Bullfrogs have a spot at the Trust House in Central Milton Keynes
between 2 and 3 p.m. on Bank Holiday Monday. I believe that the Radio
and/or TV O.B. vans will be there. Fame at last?
drury@schema.freeserve.co.uk Phil Drury
<Steve Cobham> wrote in message news:MVspOVfOojgX=Lu=zDL4XD...@4ax.com...
snip
> But that also applies to regular gigs a lot of the time. Let's
>see.......
> Leave home at six for gig and get home at two in the morning - a not
> uncommon scenario. Eight hours' work - i.e. effort spent to make the
> gig happen - say, nets £50 each, less expenses - not a sparkling
> hourly rate.
For the effort and costs (time, preparation, equipment, etc.) associated
with gigging, the 'hourly rate' is derisory and only a few can make a
living at it. If you accept a charity gig, you do all the same work but
without the (e.g.) £50 at the end of it. It's not a question of 'I only
do this for fun so I don't mind playing for nothing'. If you normally
get about £50, that's what your performance is (broadly speaking) is
worth (tho' this is of course far too low) and accordingly that's the value
of your donation to the 'good cause'. The fact that you couldn't live
on it is neither here nor there.
> Personally, I don't mind getting zero if it's for a good cause and the
> gig's organized so that I can play with the minimum of hassle. Then
> again, I wouldn't want to do it too often - it can make you appear far
> too willing to play for peanuts if you often play for free. It can
> "devalue" the band as far as the paying public is concerned.
My sentiments exactly. Remember the Edgar Broughton Band ?
Phil D
Richard Brooks
50 people pay a couple of quid each to see some bands and maybe buy some
raffle tickets.
Perhaps the organiser should just ask a bunch of gigging bands to donate
their fees from a typical Saturday night and skip the event entirely.
Of course, not as much publicity for the bands in that...
:-)
This comes from a man who's done benefit gigs to save bats, breweries,
children with cancer, the people of Mozambique and even some free musical
festival benefits.
Although obviously, I don't like to talk about it. <groan>
I think it's good to do one or two charity gigs a year, but you can
definitely have too much of being good.
Cheers,
BLACKFIRE band web site: www.blackfire.demon.co.uk
John Rimmer
> <john.s...@umist.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >"Phil Drury" <phil dr...@schema.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:8gb7rr$318$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >>
> >>
<snip>
> >And that's a fact! When you weigh up the time, effort, rows and general
> >pissing about it hardly seems worth it. You may only be on stage for
half
> >an hour but you actually can end up donating several hours of your time
> >which as Phil says means you're making by far the biggest donation.
>
> But that also applies to regular gigs a lot of the time. Let's
> see.......
>
No it doesn't. You don't have to donate anything at a regular gig.
> Leave home at six for gig and get home at two in the morning - a not
> uncommon scenario. Eight hours' work - i.e. effort spent to make the
> gig happen - say, nets £50 each, less expenses - not a sparkling
> hourly rate. Better than getting nothing, but then how many people
> actually rely totally on gig income? I don't know about anyone else,
> but at this point in time it supplements my teaching and also gives me
> "pocket money".
>
I suppose this depends on lots of things but usually I'm out at 8.00 and
home by 12:30 to 1:00 which makes the £50 a bit more reasonable. I know
what you mean though, I couldn't live off it but it does stop me having to
go to the bank every week for cash.
> I agree that everyone is worth their hire but unless it's your sole
> source of income and/or support, the money is secondary to the
> playing.
Personally, although I agree that the playing is the prime motivation, I
think this is a bad attitude to have. If the show you're performing
attracts the punters then they will bring money with them. The more
punters, the more money. Unless you agree with pub landlords and gig
organisers that they are the only one's with any real right to turn a few
quid, it's just simply business to negotiate an appropriate slice of the
cake.
> Sure, it doesn't help anyone if bands accept crap fees and
> thereby encourage bookers to continue offering them, but for many
> people it's a sort of "paid hobby". Again, sit down and do the maths
> and most people'll find that they're lucky to break even, especially
> after buying gear.
>
This is often true but it doesn't have to be, see above! For example, with
CT the initial investment was £16000 (includes gear already owned) and
first year's receipts £20000.
Even as a paid hobby, IMO you should still take the trouble to assess your
worth. If you're not making money for yourself you're making it for
somebody else.
> > I
> >think it's reasonable to expect 50-75% of the usual fee.
>
> That's a matter totally up to the individual.
>
> Personally, I don't mind getting zero if it's for a good cause and the
> gig's organized so that I can play with the minimum of hassle. Then
> again, I wouldn't want to do it too often - it can make you appear far
> too willing to play for peanuts if you often play for free. It can
> "devalue" the band as far as the paying public is concerned.
>
Yeah, I'll go along with that. But you do often find that things aren't
always what they seem to be. What % actually reaches the charity? Are the
bar profits donated or is some licencee making a killing? What about stalls
and food bars? I'm not really a bread-head (honest!) but I don't see why
bands at charity gigs should be expected to work gratis when all to often,
others are lining their pockets.
John Rimmer
> On Mon, 22 May 2000 17:26:16 GMT, st...@nothanks.dom.de (Steve Dix)
> wrote:
>
> Anyone else doing anything for the Music Live thing? "My" band the
> Bullfrogs have a spot at the Trust House in Central Milton Keynes
> between 2 and 3 p.m. on Bank Holiday Monday. I believe that the Radio
> and/or TV O.B. vans will be there. Fame at last?
>
> Steve.
Hope it goes well. Guess you won't be talking to us ordinary people before
long then :-)
John
http://crazytrain.future.easyspace.com
steve_cobham
dr...@schema.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
><Steve Cobham> wrote in message news:MVspOVfOojgX=Lu=zDL4XD...@4ax.com...
>
>snip
>
>> But that also applies to regular gigs a lot of the time. Let's
>>see.......
>
>> Leave home at six for gig and get home at two in the morning - a not
>> uncommon scenario. Eight hours' work - i.e. effort spent to make the
>> gig happen - say, nets £50 each, less expenses - not a sparkling
>> hourly rate.
>
>For the effort and costs (time, preparation, equipment, etc.) associated
>with gigging, the 'hourly rate' is derisory and only a few can make a
>living at it. If you accept a charity gig, you do all the same work but
>without the (e.g.) £50 at the end of it. It's not a question of 'I only
>do this for fun so I don't mind playing for nothing'. If you normally
>get about £50, that's what your performance is (broadly speaking) is
>worth (tho' this is of course far too low) and accordingly that's the value
>of your donation to the 'good cause'. The fact that you couldn't live
>on it is neither here nor there.
As I said previously, it's a matter for the individual to weigh up.
Those that want to do it will and those who don't won't.
I agree with your point that whether you're strictly amateur, semi-pro
or pro you're still worthy of whatever fee you can charge and the
market will stand. The figure is too low, I agree, most of the time.
>
>> Personally, I don't mind getting zero if it's for a good cause and the
>> gig's organized so that I can play with the minimum of hassle. Then
>> again, I wouldn't want to do it too often - it can make you appear far
>> too willing to play for peanuts if you often play for free. It can
>> "devalue" the band as far as the paying public is concerned.
>
>My sentiments exactly. Remember the Edgar Broughton Band ?
It seemed for a while back there that every gig would conclude with
"Out Demons Out" and EB and the boys doing what they did. Nice of the
guy to play so often for free, but not a good career move, although I
gather that he's still around.
steve_cobham
Well, that's what we were told, but I've been there before and been
disappointed.
If we actually get on radio or TV I won't let the fame spoil me ;-)
Incidentally, I don't know too much about Music Live. If this is a
charity gig then fine, but we're doing it for the exposure in this
case. and it'll tie in nicely with some local press coverage that
we're getting the week afterwards.
steve_cobham
<john.s...@umist.ac.uk> wrote:
><Steve Cobham> wrote in message news:MVspOVfOojgX=Lu=zDL4XD...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 22 May 2000 14:40:26 +0100, "John Rimmer"
>> <john.s...@umist.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >"Phil Drury" <phil dr...@schema.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>> >news:8gb7rr$318$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> >>
>> >> <Steve Cobham> wrote in message
>> >news:9REpOcmvjYlpuY...@4ax.com...
>> >>
>
><snip>
>
>> >And that's a fact! When you weigh up the time, effort, rows and general
>> >pissing about it hardly seems worth it. You may only be on stage for
>half
>> >an hour but you actually can end up donating several hours of your time
>> >which as Phil says means you're making by far the biggest donation.
>>
>> But that also applies to regular gigs a lot of the time. Let's
>> see.......
>>
>
>No it doesn't. You don't have to donate anything at a regular gig.
Perhaps I worded it badly - I just meant that in terms of actual time
spent "at work" when playing a gig, it's more than just the time you
actually play for. There's the packing, setting up, etc, etc.
>
>> Leave home at six for gig and get home at two in the morning - a not
>> uncommon scenario. Eight hours' work - i.e. effort spent to make the
>> gig happen - say, nets £50 each, less expenses - not a sparkling
>> hourly rate. Better than getting nothing, but then how many people
>> actually rely totally on gig income? I don't know about anyone else,
>> but at this point in time it supplements my teaching and also gives me
>> "pocket money".
>>
>
>I suppose this depends on lots of things but usually I'm out at 8.00 and
>home by 12:30 to 1:00 which makes the £50 a bit more reasonable.
Sure, some gigs are like that, but if they involve a lot of travelling
or you have to get there early to set up, like at a wedding reception,
the "working day" can become rather longer. Of course, you may charge
more to cover this, but sometimes you can still lose out if you're not
careful.
> I know
>what you mean though, I couldn't live off it but it does stop me having to
>go to the bank every week for cash.
>
>> I agree that everyone is worth their hire but unless it's your sole
>> source of income and/or support, the money is secondary to the
>> playing.
>
>Personally, although I agree that the playing is the prime motivation, I
>think this is a bad attitude to have. If the show you're performing
>attracts the punters then they will bring money with them. The more
>punters, the more money. Unless you agree with pub landlords and gig
>organisers that they are the only one's with any real right to turn a few
>quid, it's just simply business to negotiate an appropriate slice of the
>cake.
I'm not saying the money's unimportant, and that gigging musicians
shouldn't have a fair cut, just that the majority of them (us) aren't
in it for the money.
>> Sure, it doesn't help anyone if bands accept crap fees and
>> thereby encourage bookers to continue offering them, but for many
>> people it's a sort of "paid hobby". Again, sit down and do the maths
>> and most people'll find that they're lucky to break even, especially
>> after buying gear.
>>
>
>This is often true but it doesn't have to be, see above! For example, with
>CT the initial investment was £16000 (includes gear already owned) and
>first year's receipts £20000.
>Even as a paid hobby, IMO you should still take the trouble to assess your
>worth. If you're not making money for yourself you're making it for
>somebody else.
Which is probably going to mean a compromise is involved somewhere.
There are no easy answers to this. What does a young, struggling band
do, for instance? Accept poorly-paid gigs to get initial exposure? Or
hold out for a more realistic fee and possibly get told where to stick
the figure?
It'd help if musicians had some overall breakdown of what was actually
made at the gig by the pub or whatever and see who made what. I can't
see that happening though.
>
>
>> > I
>> >think it's reasonable to expect 50-75% of the usual fee.
>>
>> That's a matter totally up to the individual.
>>
>> Personally, I don't mind getting zero if it's for a good cause and the
>> gig's organized so that I can play with the minimum of hassle. Then
>> again, I wouldn't want to do it too often - it can make you appear far
>> too willing to play for peanuts if you often play for free. It can
>> "devalue" the band as far as the paying public is concerned.
>>
>
>Yeah, I'll go along with that. But you do often find that things aren't
>always what they seem to be. What % actually reaches the charity? Are the
>bar profits donated or is some licencee making a killing? What about stalls
>and food bars? I'm not really a bread-head (honest!) but I don't see why
>bands at charity gigs should be expected to work gratis when all to often,
>others are lining their pockets.
I agree, but how do you find that information out? Large charities
have to have figures available to show what donations were spent on,
but smaller local charities are less easy to tie down. In order to
find out exactly where the money has come from and is going to, you'd
have to have some sort of financial statement, and if a band wanted to
know beforehand whether to play a charity gig you'd need some sort of
forecast.
None of this is impossible, but it seems to tie everything up in
bureaucracy and impede charitable work.
It's a tough one, this charity business......
John Rimmer
> On Tue, 23 May 2000 10:50:02 +0100, "John Rimmer"
> >> On Mon, 22 May 2000 17:26:16 GMT, st...@nothanks.dom.de (Steve Dix)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Anyone else doing anything for the Music Live thing? "My" band the
> >> Bullfrogs have a spot at the Trust House in Central Milton Keynes
> >> between 2 and 3 p.m. on Bank Holiday Monday. I believe that the Radio
> >> and/or TV O.B. vans will be there. Fame at last?
> >>
> >> Steve.
> >
> >Hope it goes well. Guess you won't be talking to us ordinary people
before
> >long then :-)
>
> Well, that's what we were told, but I've been there before and been
> disappointed.
>
Me too. Once, when I was involved with the infamous 'rock 'n roll revival
tours' with all the old has-beens (just terminology, they were all great
guys) we had the BBC turn up at the Davenport Theatre in Stockport. They
had the full works, full recording mix in parallel with the house system
(had to sing into two mics at once), on stage monitor mix, 'do as you're
told' sound checks and the usual top pro engineers. It was supposed to go
out on New Years Eve but the programs were re-scheduled and it was shelved,
never to see the light of day again. How many licence fees did that waste I
wonder? Still, you never know - one day...
John
http://crazytrain.future.easyspace.com
Ian Spencer
John Rimmer wrote in message <8gdjrr$1mhg$1...@probity.mcc.ac.uk>...
>Yeah, I'll go along with that. But you do often find that things aren't
>always what they seem to be. What % actually reaches the charity? Are the
>bar profits donated or is some licencee making a killing? What about
stalls
>and food bars? I'm not really a bread-head (honest!) but I don't see why
>bands at charity gigs should be expected to work gratis when all to often,
>others are lining their pockets.
>
FWIW, I'm involved in Round Table so have some idea about what happens with
them and similar organisations like Rotary etc. There are two sorts of Round
Table events, those for our own entertainment like Ladies Nights, and
although there may be some fundraising element, they should not be confused
with charity gigs. Don't give away time for these.
Then they put on events, say outdoor shows etc. There, anything they earn,
except for genuine expenses - and not everything is claimed for - goes into
the charity pot. Organisations like Round Table never charge for their time
and will put in a lot of unpaid work behind the scenes. A good Table will
generate a better event because they can use their business contacts to get
company stuff for free, even if it is only getting hold of a works van to
move stuff around rather than hiring a Transit.
The stalls that you see around pay for their pitch, and although they expect
to make a commercial living, they can usually be encouraged on a good day to
make further donations. If there is a real rip off (like the Bouncy Castle
Man or the Burger Bar) then a decent Table will spot the opportunity and
attempt to get in on the act. However, on many of these things you need to
bear in mind that there is a risk involved, I've seen stall holders turn up,
it pisses down with rain and they have lost money, so don't begrudge them
all their earnings on a good day. Remember, you need to have these
facilities to make an event work.
One way to deal with these organisations is to take a fee, then if you think
they've done a good job, then you don't have to take all of it. Some outdoor
shows will be insured against rain so you don't always need feel guilty
about charging a fee on a rainy day.
As an aside, I reckon Round Table are a very good gig to get, you will get
an audience that expect to enjoy themselves and if you are any good you will
not have to work to get the audience going, then your name gets around and
you can get several gigs a year at Ladies Nights where they expect to pay a
reasonable amount for a band.
Bear in mind that these people are amateurs so rather than standing back and
complaining if things aren't right, you can always offer your opinions
before the event on what you think works best.
Ian
Steve Dix
>On Mon, 22 May 2000 17:26:16 GMT, st...@nothanks.dom.de (Steve Dix)
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 22 May 2000 11:33:01 +0100, "Claire Duncan"
>><Mr....@lineone.net> wrote:
>>
>>>All Live Music Fans,
>>>The Old Mill in Northfield is holding a 12 hour gig during the BBC's Music
>>>Live Week.
>>>There will be 10 bands playing throughout the day - Saturday 27th May,
>>>headlined by The Trevor Burton Band & After the Flood.
>>>It's £2.00 admission which will be donated to the Birmingham Air Ambulance
>>>(also the bands are donating their earnings).
>>>More info: www.music-at-the-mill.co.uk
>>>
>>>
>>
>>1) Crosspost. Very naughty.
>
>Well, it is for Cheridy ;-)
>>
>>2) Don't get me started on either Mr. Burton or Northfield. Both are
>>very unpleasant memories.
>
>I've never met the guy, but a few people I know who've worked with him
>have some stories to tell.
>
>BTW did you know that Carl Wayne now sings with the Hollies?
With the Hollies? How many of the original Hollies are left?
>As for Northfield, I haven't even heard of the place and there's three
>of 'em in the road atlas. The West Midlands one?
It's just up the road from Longbridge (Where the cars (used to) come
from). It's also the site of the worst gig I ever did, and lead to
the break-up of the band, after being pelted with condoms by 15-year
olds. (fortunately not used).
steve_cobham
<JustForN...@tesco.net> wrote:
>As an aside, I reckon Round Table are a very good gig to get, you will get
>an audience that expect to enjoy themselves and if you are any good you will
>not have to work to get the audience going, then your name gets around and
>you can get several gigs a year at Ladies Nights where they expect to pay a
>reasonable amount for a band.
I've done quite a few Round Table, Rotary Club and Roteract (the youth
branch of the Rotary Club?) do's over the years - always Barn Dances -
and have always had good experiences. Well organized and paid, if they
liked you they showed it and we got quite a few rebookings.
John Rimmer
> made at the gig by the pub or whatever and see who made what. I can't
> see that happening though.
> >
> >
I use a simple rule of thumb. In these parts it's a waste of time expecting
anyone to actually 'pay' to watch a live band in a pub so the fee comes
straight out of the bar take. Estimate the number of people in and multiply
by ten quid and you'll not be far out on the money in the till. Take 33% as
profit (40% for a free house) then do your darndest to get half!
> It's a tough one, this charity business......
>
Certainly is!
steve_cobham
wrote:
>On Mon, 22 May 2000 20:13:40 +0100, Steve Cobham wrote:
>>BTW did you know that Carl Wayne now sings with the Hollies?
>
>With the Hollies? How many of the original Hollies are left?
Tony Hicks - for sure - and Bobby Eliott, I think. Allan Clarke has
retired - he just called it a day and decided to live out the rest of
his life in comfort - and why not?
Tony Hicks is a great player and overlooked too often. Some great
guitar on the hits and lots of fabulous playing hidden away on
forgotten albums.
>>As for Northfield, I haven't even heard of the place and there's three
>>of 'em in the road atlas. The West Midlands one?
>
>It's just up the road from Longbridge (Where the cars (used to) come
>from). It's also the site of the worst gig I ever did, and lead to
>the break-up of the band, after being pelted with condoms by 15-year
>olds. (fortunately not used).
Yecchhhh..........
........did they fill them with water, or hadn't they attended school
often enough to grasp some of the elementary concepts of aerodynamics?
At least the only abuse I've ever had was verbal - mind you, hundreds
of testosterone-fuelled teenagers chanting en masse, "Spud and The
Fabs fuck off!" was quite "exciting" enough, thank you very much.
We never played a youth club again.
David Galbraith
Claire Duncan wrote in message <8gb243$rhv$1...@supernews.com>...
(SNIP)
I've read all of this post with interest. I work full time for a charity as
it's salaried officer but that particular organisation is so rich from a
legacy donated in 1917 and which was invested on the stock market that we
don't fund raise AT ALL.
I do voluntary work for two other charities, however, which do actively fund
raise, We put on events, naturally, and, touch wood, have always both made
money and had an excellent relationship with the "acts" that have appeared.
As an organiser I have found that what tends to happen is that allowing the
band/s time and space to do what they need to do before they perform in
terms of soundchecks and adequate changeover time reaps dividends. No less
important is treating the bands with respect - as integral parts of the
function and not as hired lackeys to be bossed about. "Treat others as I
would expect to be treated" - easy for me to say as someone who also gigs, I
suppose, but too many worthies involved in their good causes have no idea
what's involved in putting a show on and your demands as musicians are
incomprehensible and are therefore simply "awkward or difficult".
We always agree fees with the bands that we book, obviously, but we have
learned that in all but a very few circumstances making the night run
smoothly for the band leads to an "event" which is also running smoothly. It
also leads to, in 90% of the cases that I have dealt with, the band donating
back a good part of their fee to the charity. On a couple of events over the
last couple of years a very well run night has actually seen the bands have
a little conference and then give their entire fee back to the charity.
All it needs is a little respect (from both parties) and both the event
organisers and the bands benefit.
Dave.
steve_cobham
<lsbs...@clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Claire Duncan wrote in message <8gb243$rhv$1...@supernews.com>...
>(SNIP)
>
>I've read all of this post with interest. I work full time for a charity as
>it's salaried officer but that particular organisation is so rich from a
>legacy donated in 1917 and which was invested on the stock market that we
>don't fund raise AT ALL.
The mind boggles - a charity that has enough money without needing to
fund raise?
If you raised more funds, couldn't you do more worthy deeds?
Or am I missing something here?
Is there some reason you can't say which one it is?
Questions, questions.........
I'm intrigued, that's all.
David Galbraith
Steve Cobham wrote in message ...
>
>The mind boggles - a charity that has enough money without needing to
>fund raise?
Yup.
>
>If you raised more funds, couldn't you do more worthy deeds?
Not really - our terms of reference (Articles of Association) don't allow
us to widen the scope of those who benefit. We're specifically limited to
giving financial assistance to persons who have worked on shore based
shipping operations around Merseyside and now "during a term of good
behaviour have found themselves to be suffering pecuniary limitation" (the
Articles were drawn up in 1894).
We give away approximately £300,000 per annum but as people have made more
and better pension provision we are actually struggling to find potential
future beneficiaries. And, no, before the thread starts running away with
*very* iffy requests from guitarists who once sailed across the Mersey on a
ferry - I really don't see anyone in this group who might qualify.....
>
>Or am I missing something here?
Not at all. It's actually not that unusual for certain charities not to hit
the publics' pockets. There are a lot of organisations who, like us,
received massive legacies years ago which now meet all of their needs as
that legacy was invested and has grown.
>Is there some reason you can't say which one it is?
I've mailled you privately on that one.
drury@schema.freeserve.co.uk Phil Drury
<Steve Cobham> wrote in message news:lZcqObXweP82T2...@4ax.com...
snip
> The mind boggles - a charity that has enough money without needing to
> fund raise?
>
> If you raised more funds, couldn't you do more worthy deeds?
I'm aware of a couple of charities which are reputed to have more
money than they can spend, tho' it's probably not fair to name them
(but both still fund-raise, just not that actively).
The work which charities can do is very closely controlled by
their Charters (IIRC) and this is monitored by the Charity Commission.
Some charities exist to support very clearly-defined groups of people
- they can't do general 'good works' - and in some cases the size of
this 'target group' is actually shrinking as members die without being
replaced by new sufferers - some ex-Service charities are in this
position.
Phil D
drury@schema.freeserve.co.uk Phil Drury
<Steve Cobham> wrote in message news:ulUqOXK2pOMXML...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 22 May 2000 19:52:17 +0100, "Phil Drury" <phil
> dr...@schema.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> ><Steve Cobham> wrote in message
> >
> >snip
> > If you normally
> >get about £50, that's what your performance is (broadly speaking) is
> >worth (tho' this is of course far too low) and accordingly that's the
value
> >of your donation to the 'good cause'. The fact that you couldn't live
> >on it is neither here nor there.
>
> As I said previously, it's a matter for the individual to weigh up.
> Those that want to do it will and those who don't won't.
Indeed it is for the individual to weigh up but my point remains:
the value of their 'usual', 'average' or 'normal' fee is what the
bands are asked to donate _as cash_ to the cause when they agree
to play for free. The time, effort, driving, gear lugging etc. is what
they are willing to do simply to play.
snip
> >My sentiments exactly. Remember the Edgar Broughton Band ?
>
> It seemed for a while back there that every gig would conclude with
> "Out Demons Out" and EB and the boys doing what they did. Nice of the
> guy to play so often for free, but not a good career move, although I
> gather that he's still around.
I don't think he was able to convert his live popularity to unit sales, but
IIRC what flattened his career was the enforced lay-off (of some years)
he suffered as a result of prolonged legal wranglings over his recording
contract and the 'Bandages' album. To be candid, never liked him much
myself (except for 'Apache Dropout' and 'Keep them freaks a-rollin').
Phil D
My what a lively thread this has become.
steve_cobham
<lsbs...@clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Steve Cobham wrote in message ...
>>
>>The mind boggles - a charity that has enough money without needing to
>>fund raise?
>
>Yup.
>>
>>If you raised more funds, couldn't you do more worthy deeds?
>
>Not really - our terms of reference (Articles of Association) don't allow
>us to widen the scope of those who benefit. We're specifically limited to
>giving financial assistance to persons who have worked on shore based
>shipping operations around Merseyside and now "during a term of good
>behaviour have found themselves to be suffering pecuniary limitation" (the
>Articles were drawn up in 1894).
>
>We give away approximately £300,000 per annum but as people have made more
>and better pension provision we are actually struggling to find potential
>future beneficiaries. And, no, before the thread starts running away with
>*very* iffy requests from guitarists who once sailed across the Mersey on a
>ferry - I really don't see anyone in this group who might qualify.....
I vaguely recall when I worked in the tax office seeing something
similar. It was a small local charity which had large funds but its
terms of reference meant that no-one could actually benefit in 1970 or
whenever it was that I worked there.
I wonder what happens to the money in a case like that?
As for not qualifying for a grant from your charity........
........me, our kid and our kid's kid have been sailing the Mersey
from Bootle to St.Helens ever since our Aunty Cilla was a kid. I've
got Mersey riverwater in my veins, Mersey crabs in me trolleys and I
eat scouse pie for breakfast everyday and sometimes for lunch as well.
I support Liverpool and Everton. Oh yes, and I've got every single
"Liver Birds" show on video tape and I used to be in the Fourmost fan
club. I also think that Freddie Starr is funny.
How could you doubt my credentials, Mr. Galbraith?
Steve Dix
>>It's just up the road from Longbridge (Where the cars (used to) come
>>from). It's also the site of the worst gig I ever did, and lead to
>>the break-up of the band, after being pelted with condoms by 15-year
>>olds. (fortunately not used).
>
>Yecchhhh..........
>
>........did they fill them with water, or hadn't they attended school
>often enough to grasp some of the elementary concepts of aerodynamics?
>
No, thank God. We should have been warned that it was an "AIDS
awareness" thing. Some stupid idiot thought it would be good to hand
out the condoms BEFORE we came on. Result. The air filled with them
as soon as the first note was struck. Those things HURT. They're
like being flicked with a very big elastic band. At least they
weren't lubricated. However, when they had exhausted those they threw
lit matches.
Stan Barr
David Galbraith <lsbs...@clara.co.uk> wrote:
> We're specifically limited to
>giving financial assistance to persons who have worked on shore based
>shipping operations around Merseyside and now "during a term of good
>behaviour have found themselves to be suffering pecuniary limitation" (the
>Articles were drawn up in 1894).
>
>We give away approximately £300,000 per annum but as people have made more
>and better pension provision we are actually struggling to find potential
>future beneficiaries. And, no, before the thread starts running away with
>*very* iffy requests from guitarists who once sailed across the Mersey on a
>ferry - I really don't see anyone in this group who might qualify.....
I used to work (shore based) for the Mersey Ferries, and I'm *always*
suffering pecuniary limitation(!) - do I qualify? ;-)
(There's always one smart-aleck isn't there....)
Is _everyone_ in this NG associated in some way with Liverpool?
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr st...@dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
JNugent
>"David Galbraith" <lsbs...@clara.co.uk> wrote:
>>We're specifically limited to
>>giving financial assistance to persons who have worked on shore based
>>shipping operations around Merseyside and now "during a term of good
>>behaviour have found themselves to be suffering pecuniary limitation" (the
>>Articles were drawn up in 1894).
>>We give away approximately Ł300,000 per annum
>>... we are actually struggling to find potential future beneficiaries.
>>And, no, before the thread starts running away with *very* iffy
>>requests from guitarists who once sailed across the Mersey on a
>>ferry - I really don't see anyone in this group who might qualify.....
My grandad was a Liverpool docker - does that count? :-)
>As for not qualifying for a grant from your charity........
>........me, our kid and our kid's kid have been sailing the Mersey
>from Bootle to St.Helens ever since our Aunty Cilla was a kid.
You failed geography, then?
>I've
>got Mersey riverwater in my veins, Mersey crabs in me trolleys and I
>eat scouse pie for breakfast everyday and sometimes for lunch as well.
>I support Liverpool and Everton. Oh yes, and I've got every single
>"Liver Birds" show on video tape and I used to be in the Fourmost fan
>club. I also think that Freddie Starr is funny.
>How could you doubt my credentials, Mr. Galbraith?
Easy. No true Scouser spells the word with a lower-case "s"...
...or ever thought "The Liver Birds" worth watching...
John Rimmer
David Galbraith <lsbs...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jvxW4.710$x82....@nnrp3.clara.net...
>
> We give away approximately £300,000 per annum but as people have made more
> future beneficiaries. And, no, before the thread starts running away with
> *very* iffy requests from guitarists who once sailed across the Mersey on
a
> ferry - I really don't see anyone in this group who might qualify.....
> >
I once sailed across the Mersey without a ferry. Does that qualify?
John
http://crazytrain.future.easyspace.com
John Rimmer
<Steve Cobham> wrote in message news:U60qObjTJfIFwq...@4ax.com...
> "Liver Birds" show on video tape and I used to be in the Fourmost fan
> club. I also think that Freddie Starr is funny.
>
> How could you doubt my credentials, Mr. Galbraith?
>
Seems to me that this is a very sad case. Give him a few quid Dave.
John
http://crazytrain.future.easyspace.com
John Rimmer
Stan Barr <st...@citadel.metropolis> wrote in message
news:slrn8ilh8l...@citadel.metropolis.local...
> suffering pecuniary limitation(!) - do I qualify? ;-)
> (There's always one smart-aleck isn't there....)
>
> Is _everyone_ in this NG associated in some way with Liverpool?
>
> --
Only when there's money involved.
John
http://crazytrain.future.easyspace.com
Steve Dix
wrote:
>Is _everyone_ in this NG associated in some way with Liverpool?
>
Does being inspired by the Beatles count?
David Galbraith
Nice one,
Dave.
Steve Dix wrote in message <392bf0cd...@news.gtn.com>...
>On Tue, 23 May 2000 22:10:09 GMT, "John Rimmer"
><jrim...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>I once sailed across the Mersey without a ferry. Does that qualify?
>>
>
>responsible for a large part of the noise in the Sig to Noise ratio,
>but here goes, and sorry if I offend anybody.
>
>Liverpool Docker is sitting in an empty pub at lunchtime, when in
>minces a Homosexual, looks the docker up and down, and obviously likes
>what he sees. He sidles up to the docker and whispers in his ear "do
>you want a blow-job?"
>
>The docker punches his lights out.
>
>"what was that all about?" asks the landlord.
>
>"I dunno", says the docker. "Something about a job".
Steve Dix
Paul Simpson
too. You can see a quality gig every night of the week if you wanted to.
--
All the best,
Paul.
"Normal people believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Engineers
believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet."
----- Scott Adams, The Dilbert Principle
"Stan Barr" <st...@citadel.metropolis> wrote in message
news:slrn8ilh8l...@citadel.metropolis.local...
> On Tue, 23 May 2000 16:38:39 +0100,
> David Galbraith <lsbs...@clara.co.uk> wrote:
> > We're specifically limited to
> >giving financial assistance to persons who have worked on shore based
> >shipping operations around Merseyside and now "during a term of good
> >behaviour have found themselves to be suffering pecuniary limitation"
(the
> >Articles were drawn up in 1894).
> >
> >We give away approximately Ł300,000 per annum but as people have made
more
> >and better pension provision we are actually struggling to find potential
> >future beneficiaries. And, no, before the thread starts running away with
> >*very* iffy requests from guitarists who once sailed across the Mersey on
a
> >ferry - I really don't see anyone in this group who might qualify.....
>
> I used to work (shore based) for the Mersey Ferries, and I'm *always*
> suffering pecuniary limitation(!) - do I qualify? ;-)
> (There's always one smart-aleck isn't there....)
>
> Is _everyone_ in this NG associated in some way with Liverpool?
>
David Galbraith
Paul Simpson wrote in message <8ggu7e$i1d$1...@news.liv.ac.uk>...
>Well, I've been living here for the past five years - fantastic city it is
>too. You can see a quality gig every night of the week if you wanted to.
>
June - you can find out the exact details from Carl on Saturday night.
dave.