Philip John Lee - Flamenco guitar
David T
Lee, but in case not I'd like to draw attention to his new website at
http://website.lineone.net/~philipjohnlee/
My interest in all of this is that of a friend and student of
Philip's. I put together the site for him because I honestly believe
a guitarist of this calibre should be more widely known than I suspect
he is.
Apologies for the shameless promotion, however - you will find some
rather good Real Audio clips and links to a couple of MP3s from his
latest album.
I would be very interested in any feedback.
Thanks
David
Jon Boyes
>Apologies for the shameless promotion, however - you will find some
>rather good Real Audio clips and links to a couple of MP3s from his
>latest album.
>
Had a look but couldn't get any of the real audio clips to play - path or
filename incorrect or some other problem.
--
Jon Boyes
**************************************************
..more of this kind of stuff and lots of other
Spanish guitar gubbins on my website
..coming soon (I hope.)
**************************************************
James French
good player.
David T wrote:
> I don't know how aware folk are of the Flamenco guitarist Philip John
> Lee, but in case not I'd like to draw attention to his new website at
> http://website.lineone.net/~philipjohnlee/
>
> My interest in all of this is that of a friend and student of
> Philip's. I put together the site for him because I honestly believe
> a guitarist of this calibre should be more widely known than I suspect
> he is.
>
> Apologies for the shameless promotion, however - you will find some
> rather good Real Audio clips and links to a couple of MP3s from his
> latest album.
>
Konstantin Litovsky
I've listened to Rumba. I'm not impressed. His passage skills are
pretty pathethic. His fingers always get caught by the strings,
suggesting that he has never practiced much technique. He seems to be
playing the same 3 chords over and over again. There is no originality
in that rumba - one would think that in so many years he'd develop his
own style and introduce something original. I've heard much better
flamenco than that.
Konstantin
David T
really not sure where you get that impression from. You may or may
not be aware that traditional Flamenco styles very often stay within a
limited chord structure - it's a question of how those are then
articulated.
If you doubt Philip's technique, I suggest you try the Bulerias and
come back to me :)
David T
problems.
Jon Boyes <j...@nospamteigncvs.org.uk> wrote in message
news:387ef...@news.netdirect.net.uk...
> David T wrote in message <387ee...@newsread3.dircon.co.uk>...
>
> >Apologies for the shameless promotion, however - you will find some
> >rather good Real Audio clips and links to a couple of MP3s from his
> >latest album.
> >
Konstantin Litovsky
>
> I can assure you that there are no fingers 'catching on strings, I'm
> really not sure where you get that impression from. You may or may
> not be aware that traditional Flamenco styles very often stay within a
> limited chord structure - it's a question of how those are then
> articulated.
>
> If you doubt Philip's technique, I suggest you try the Bulerias and
> come back to me :)
>
> David
>
Fingers "catching on the strings" if a figure of speech.
It means that he is playing scales too fast for his fingers to
execute smoothly. There is too much extra noise generated.
Also, the speed of execution is affected, i.e. the speed of the
passage has a "cusp" when the person stumbles (i.e. catches the string),
which is what happens in Rumba a few times. Definitely a no-no even
for a traditional flamenco guitarist.
I've listened to the bulerias as well. I could recognize
about 2 falsettas towards the end, first one is that of Sabicas and 2nd
one is that of Paco Pena. The intro was very traditional and standard.
The overall playing is not very clean (listen to Paco Pena -- he is NOT
one of the cleanest, but his pieces are crisp). The structure of this
bulerias is fine in the beginning (some techniques not excecuted well,
with extra strings caught sometimes), but falls apart towards the
middle, and then picks up in the end when he gets to some really good
falsettas. There at least a couple mistakes (I know the falsettas, and
I heard the stumbling in certain spots). I've also listened to
Soleares...correct me if Im wrong, but the rythm here is floating so
much that it changes with every falsetta.
Konstantin
P.S. I have nothing against traditional flamenco...but I don't
like somebody making a mess of it. Just because somebody can
smack the strings in a certian way with lots of energy doesn't
mean much to me. This guy generates more noise than music to my ears.
If somebody doesn't like my analysis, let them post their own -- this is
a free forum, and I'm just expressing my opinion.
Me
"Konstantin Litovsky" <lito...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:387FC2...@mediaone.net...
> mean much to me. This guy generates more noise than music to my ears.
> If somebody doesn't like my analysis, let them post their own -- this is
> a free forum, and I'm just expressing my opinion.
You must be deaf :)
Me
David T
I think it is clear that you don't really understand the idiom or the
nature of live performances. Sure there are things that might have
been more polished in a studio but there are a great many Flamenco
(and other) players who would either never consider releasing a live
album, as nothing can be edited afterwards. I maintain that this
performance is exceptionally good by any standards and particularly so
given it was all recorded at one concert.
> I've listened to the bulerias as well. I could recognize
> about 2 falsettas towards the end, first one is that of Sabicas and
2nd
> one is that of Paco Pena. The intro was very traditional and
standard.
All Flamenco guitarists borrow and rework other players falsettas -
that is part of the genre. Incidentally, why do you assume that
Philip did not originally play the falsetta that you now associate
with Paco Pena?
Traditional and standard are two different things. I would agree that
he is 'traditional' but certainly not 'standard'.
> The overall playing is not very clean (listen to Paco Pena -- he is
NOT
> one of the cleanest, but his pieces are crisp). The structure of
this
> bulerias is fine in the beginning (some techniques not excecuted
well,
> with extra strings caught sometimes), but falls apart towards the
> middle, and then picks up in the end when he gets to some really
good
> falsettas. There at least a couple mistakes (I know the falsettas,
and
> I heard the stumbling in certain spots).
That is just plain incorrect - there are certainly no mistakes or
stumbling. Falesttas are played differently by different players so to
say that you 'know them' is to miss much of what Flamenco is - I
suspect you are primarily familiar with classical playing and applying
those values to a different form.
I've also listened to
> Soleares...correct me if Im wrong, but the rythm here is floating so
> much that it changes with every falsetta.
Do you mean tempo or compas? In Flamenco variations in tempo are fine
as can be variations in the compas if the guitarist is not
accompanying a dancer.
> P.S. I have nothing against traditional flamenco...but I don't
> like somebody making a mess of it.
Nice to know that you have nothing against Flamenco, although I must
say, the tone of your remarks imply that you regard 'traditional
Flamenco' as somehow unworthy.
Just because somebody can
> smack the strings in a certian way with lots of energy doesn't
> mean much to me. This guy generates more noise than music to my
ears.
Now that may be to do with your ears rather than the guy in question.
> If somebody doesn't like my analysis, let them post their own --
this is
> a free forum, and I'm just expressing my opinion.
I really fail to understand what axe you are trying to grind. Frankly
I find your 'analysis' misses the point by miles. Flamenco is not
about playing notes in metronomic perfection (although it may include
that), it is about expression within an idiom.
As you say it is a free forum and I personally cannot understand what
has prompted such self opionated vitriol - what, as they say, is your
problem?
David
Konstantin Litovsky
> I think it is clear that you don't really understand the idiom or the
> nature of live performances. Sure there are things that might have
> been more polished in a studio but there are a great many Flamenco
> (and other) players who would either never consider releasing a live
> album, as nothing can be edited afterwards. I maintain that this
> performance is exceptionally good by any standards and particularly so
> given it was all recorded at one concert.
Ok, ok, live performance...fine, but the problems with the performance
that I mentioned are beyond the circumstances. This guy has
a few technical problems, and its not my fault that he does.
> > I've listened to the bulerias as well. I could recognize
> > about 2 falsettas towards the end, first one is that of Sabicas and
> 2nd
> > one is that of Paco Pena. The intro was very traditional and
> standard.
>
> All Flamenco guitarists borrow and rework other players falsettas -
> that is part of the genre. Incidentally, why do you assume that
> Philip did not originally play the falsetta that you now associate
> with Paco Pena?
Originally? These falsettas must have been there even
BEFORE Paco Pena, so I simply associate it with Paco Pena
becacuse I heard it on his CD (1970s). As for the Sabicas falsetta,
it is probably that of his creations (a lot of which are also based
on the old material, but with his distinct rendition of it).
Do you suggest that Paco Pena borrowed it from Philip?
Hmm...interesting...
> > The overall playing is not very clean (listen to Paco Pena -- he is
> NOT
> > one of the cleanest, but his pieces are crisp). The structure of
> this
> > bulerias is fine in the beginning (some techniques not excecuted
> well,
> > with extra strings caught sometimes), but falls apart towards the
> > middle, and then picks up in the end when he gets to some really
> good
> > falsettas. There at least a couple mistakes (I know the falsettas,
> and
> > I heard the stumbling in certain spots).
> That is just plain incorrect - there are certainly no mistakes or
> stumbling.
Well, this is just your opinion. I have a good ear for that stuff -
I've been visiting flamenco concerts for the past 5 years regularly,
and believe me, I could tell.
> Falesttas are played differently by different players so to
> say that you 'know them' is to miss much of what Flamenco is - I
> suspect you are primarily familiar with classical playing and applying
> those values to a different form.
Oh, don't be so sure. I suspect that I've heard more flamenco played
than
most. I own a number of flamenco CD's which I listen to
regularly, and at the least I think I'm qualified to talk about somebody
else's performance. Do the names Manolo Sanlucar, Gerardo Nunez,
Vicente Amigo,
Carlos Montoya, Paco De Lucia, Nino Miguel, Juan Serrano, Paco Pena,
Mario
Escudero, Tomatito, Pepe Habichuela, Enrique Melchor, Orcar Herrero,
Juan
Martin and Moraito say anything to you?
> I've also listened to
> > Soleares...correct me if Im wrong, but the rythm here is floating so
> > much that it changes with every falsetta.
>
> Do you mean tempo or compas? In Flamenco variations in tempo are fine
> as can be variations in the compas if the guitarist is not
> accompanying a dancer.
All right, I wasn't sure how familiar you are with flamenco.
Yes, his compass is not constant. You can maybe do that in the
beginning.
Maybe in the end. But NOT all throughout, and not in solea.
You assume that because you play flamenco for audience without a dancer,
you can do away with compass? Now, this is nonsense!
> > P.S. I have nothing against traditional flamenco...but I don't
> > like somebody making a mess of it.
>
> Nice to know that you have nothing against Flamenco, although I must
> say, the tone of your remarks imply that you regard 'traditional
> Flamenco' as somehow unworthy.
Ok, I'd suggest you find the cds of Paco Pena and Juan Serrano, and
and listen to their version of traditional flamenco. It can be played
magnificently. But it HAS to be played well, or it is not flamenco.
If Philip tried playing Paco De Lucia, or something modern, and he
missed a few
notes here and there, I'd say, amazing! But he plays traditional
flamenco, so there are no excuses (this is not classical guitar --
mistakes are not optional).
> I really fail to understand what axe you are trying to grind. Frankly
> I find your 'analysis' misses the point by miles. Flamenco is not
> about playing notes in metronomic perfection (although it may include
> that), it is about expression within an idiom.
Well, if you put it that way, it IS! Get a few movies of Paco, and
you'll see--
it is all about the exact and precise compass. You have to be precise
to the extreme, or else you will be laughed at. I bet Philip
never played for a dancer or a singer. He doesn't have the compass.
Konstantin
P.S. Yes, I'm anal about this, just because most people won't be able to
tell whether he is good or not, simply because they have no idea how a
"traditional" guitarists must sound.
David T
a good few more besides - some personally - over a far longer period
than five years (that one really got me laughing). The depths of your
ignorance about Flamenco and the arrogance you show in commenting on
matters of which you have such a superficial understanding is
staggering.
I took the liberty of checking the history of some of your postings on
such matters and I see that you've made quite a habit of posting
ill-informed comments on the capabilities of virtually everybody and
everything. From your arguments one would assume that there is no
guitarist except Paco de Lucia.
You appear intent on listening to music with the sole intention of
finding fault with it - this is an attitude that I simply don't
understand. Perhaps you should forget musicians and stick to midi
files as they tend not to vary a great deal in technique, inflexion or
tempo. Now I realise that you are born to be contrary I feel able to
leave this thread alone.
There is a difference between being anal about something (a stickler
for precision) and self-opinionated to the extent of ignorance. Five
years and a few Flamenco CD's does not an aficionado make!
David
PS and it's compas, not compass :)
Konstantin Litovsky <lito...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:38809C...@mediaone.net...
Konstantin Litovsky
>
> As it happens I am very familiar with all the artists you mention and
> a good few more besides - some personally - over a far longer period
> than five years (that one really got me laughing). The depths of your
> ignorance about Flamenco and the arrogance you show in commenting on
> matters of which you have such a superficial understanding is
> staggering.
Snip all the irrelevant nonsense....
From everything that you wrote so far, there isn't a shred of evidence
that you have any idea about what flamenco is (I've accumulated enough
sheet music/CD's, so that I am very familiar with both
traditional/modern guitar as well as cante...I also happen to own many
videos of cante/baile/guitar). Furthermore, it even
seems you have no idea about technique and/or the repertoire.
In 5 years that I've been involved with flamenco I've learned more
than some people do in their lifetimes. So far, you haven't
answered any one of my comments on the playing of the so-called
flamenco guitarist. Not only can I recognize a few hundred or so
individual falsettas, I can play a few of them, and I can surely
tell when somebody is faking it.
Regardless, you seem to think that this one guy is the master. And you
simply don't want to compare him to anybody...well, I can understand
that you probably can't tell Sabicas from Carlos Montoya, but in the
real world, there plenty of guitarists worthy of praise, and this guy
isn't one of them. Sorry to burst your bubble like that. Wanna hear
some good guitar? Go to www.flamenco-world.com...every one of the
traditional guitarists will be 100 times better. These guys have the
compas in their spines.
http://www.flamenco-world.com/flamenco/jukebox.sql?cla=guitrad&texto=Traditional+Guitar
(look for Serranito's Bulerias -- this one is a REAL traditional
bulerias).
P.S. And by the way, Paco De Lucia is probably the best
living guitarist. Not because he is clean -- there are those
who are cleaner. Not because he is the fastest one -- there are
those who are even faster. But rather because he is the most
versatile and innovative.
Granny Dani
You're doing your best to turn this thread into how much you allegedly know,
when it started as a friendly announcement of the website of a fine flamenco
artist. What you're succeeding in doing is showing how much you don't know,
and, in spite of all your fine arguments, will probably never know, about
flamenco.
David does not need to prove anything to you. Your determination to have
him do so is tedious. Nor does Philip. Nor does Paco Pena, nor any of the
other brilliant artists you glibly name and elsewhere criticise (thank you
for that idea, David... illuminating). You are the one proclaiming yourself
the expert, therefore the onus is on you to prove to us what right you
have to that claim, if anything needs proving, which it doesn't. Most
definitely, nothing you've posted thus far grants you that right, as far as
I can see.
I've been to the site created by David. I am familiar with Philip's music,
and the music of the other artists you mention. I have my personal
favourites, of course, but I do not need to justify them to you or anyone
else. I do not have to explain *why* they are great. If you need the music
surgically dismembered in order to find some merit in it, then that's your
problem, as well as your loss, and you've probably got no business listening
to flamenco in the first place, because you'll certainly never appreciate it
properly. Regardless of that, it is most definitely not your place to
'educate the masses' on what constitutes *good* flamenco. Flamenco is about
passion and life, and it comes from the heart. There are many different
interpretations of the forms of flamenco out there by many different artists
(and I use this term in its strictest sense), some that I like, some that I
do not. This is as far as I would ever presume to go in telling others
about flamenco, because it is music for the soul, not the mind.
I think you must have missed the fact mentioned on David's website that
Philip was taught by gypsies in Spain, the home of flamenco. He has
obviously been learning and playing it for many, many years, and will no
doubt continue to do so until he dies. I am not impressed by your five
years of concerts and videos and sheet music, and on a personal level, as
someone who loves flamenco, I strongly object to your PS that if you don't
tell people that Philip's music is bad, they won't know. Philip's music is
*not* bad. I also don't like the implication elsewhere (old postings) that
Paco Pena will not mind if his copyrighted material is passed around.
Unless you have a signed piece of paper to that effect then you go too far
in your arrogance, and I think you should watch your tongue lest someone
bite it off for you.
David never stated that 'this guy is a master'. Nor has he attempted to
compare him to anyone. You are the only person attempting to compare Philip
to anyone, and, as far as I can tell, you're the only person who's posted to
this thread thus far who feels the need to. I like Philip's music. David
likes Philip's music. James likes Philip's music. That's three to one in
favour of Philip's music here in this newsgroup. Lots of other people have
liked Philip's music. Others will no doubt have *not* liked his music as
well, as is the case with any artist, even your beloved Paco de Lucia, who
seems to be the only one who escapes the vitriol of your OPINIONS about
flamenco music and the artists who perform it.
In *my* opinion, Philip is excellent, as are many of the artists you so
readily find fault with. Whether he will ever be regarded as a master only
time will tell, but I wouldn't discount the possibility, and certainly not
because you've said otherwise. Personally, I *do* hope that David does not
bother to respond to this latest bit of self-aggrandisement, especially
since he's said he wouldn't. I also hope that you'll stop imposing your
self-proclaimed god-hood on flamenco, but I rather doubt it. You're not the
type... you obviously have far too high an opinion of yourself, and people
like you *never* cease to think that the world is somehow a lesser place if
you aren't there to tell everyone what's good and bad or right and wrong.
You've gone on so much about this that one would almost think that you had a
vested interest in keeping people from hearing Philip's music and deciding
for themselves whether they like him or not.
Having said my piece, I will re-lurk.
Granny Dani
PS - and I still think that you must be deaf.
"Konstantin Litovsky" <lito...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:3880F9...@mediaone.net...
> David T wrote:
> >
> > As it happens I am very familiar with all the artists you mention and
> > a good few more besides - some personally - over a far longer period
> > than five years (that one really got me laughing). The depths of your
> > ignorance about Flamenco and the arrogance you show in commenting on
> > matters of which you have such a superficial understanding is
> > staggering.
>
>
Konstantin Litovsky
Snip "you have no right" nonsense, because, you see...I DO have that
right...
music is there to be criticized, and so are performers...this is the
right
newsgroup, the last time I checked.
Snip
>I do not have to explain *why* they are great. If you need the music
> surgically dismembered in order to find some merit in it, then that's your
> problem, as well as your loss, and you've probably got no business listening
> to flamenco in the first place, because you'll certainly never appreciate it
> properly.
Another afficionado...you probably haven't picked up the guitar at all.
What nonsense...music is there to be dismembered and analyzed...EVEN
flamenco!
On the other hand, not many have the SKILLS to do so (I'm still learning
--
but doesn't mean I can't do it).
Snip
> I think you must have missed the fact mentioned on David's website that
> Philip was taught by gypsies in Spain, the home of flamenco.
Since when were the gypsies the sole owners of flamenco?
Snip
> Philip's music is
> *not* bad.
This is YOUR opinion, and you are entitled to one, just like everyone
else.
So far, there wasn't any proof that he was any good (I haven't heard a
flamenco guitarist's opinion...just some "afficionados").
>I also don't like the implication elsewhere (old postings) that
> Paco Pena will not mind if his copyrighted material is passed around.
> Unless you have a signed piece of paper to that effect then you go too far
> in your arrogance, and I think you should watch your tongue lest someone
> bite it off for you.
Well, well, now, lets not get angry. Where in the world you got that
idea?
Copyright is copyright, and I have no clue where you pulled that one
from.
List the entire "old posting", or else don't talk nonsense.
What copyrighted material are you talking about, and what does it
have to do with Paco Pena? (and for that matter, with me?)
>I like Philip's music. David
> likes Philip's music. James likes Philip's music. That's three to one in
> favour of Philip's music here in this newsgroup.
So far, I was the only one on the whole group who listened to the
provided
sound files, except the triumvirate here. I'm still waiting for more
independent
responses. Preferably those of accomplished guitarists. I'm not one of
them,
and I will respect a good analysis when I hear one.
sinp
> In *my* opinion, Philip is excellent, as are many of the artists you so
> readily find fault with.
He is not in the same league as the ones I named. And when did I fault
any one of them?
Don't assme too much, you may end up making the wrong conclusions!
snip
Oh, and by the way, we have free speech on this ng, so whether you like
it or not,
I will post my own independent analysis for those who would somehow
mistake
Philip for being a grand flamenco guitarist, just so that they don't
fall in a trap
by listening to dirty/erroneous playing and bad compas.
> Having said my piece, I will re-lurk.
Well, I don't plan to, as long as we have mediocrities who claim to own
the right
to play as they wish.
Konstantin
David T
territory now.
I know nothing about Flamenco eh? I was brought up with it - my
father played, my grandfather played, Pepe Martinez was a regular
house guest and now I play - so don't presume to tell me I don't know
Sabicas from Carlos Montoya.
I find it interesting that you equate ownership of material with
knowing it. If you really seek to understand Flamenco try forgetting
about tabs and the 'knowledge' you think you have and start reaching
for duende. It is painful for me to listen to the comments of a self
appointed authority who thinks that if he owns enough recordings he is
somehow an expert.
I really have no problems with anyone comparing Philip to whoever they
like and in fact I have answered your comments on his playing - that
is why the thread has developed, because you didn't like my response
to your comments about his compas, execution of falsettas, and tempo.
In fact it is revealing that someone who presumes to know so much
about Flamenco and it's musicians should *not* know Philip John Lee -
he is not some newbie gaucho but a guitarist who was learning his
craft, not just in Spain but in Triana. This was at the begining of
the 60's when it was extremely rare for non-Spaniards to show interest
in Flamenco. Philip was giving Flamenco recitals in his early 20's in
some quite famous venues. You will find that many guitarists who you
have heard of will certainly be familiar with him. Being publicly
known is a function of promotion, marketing is one thing (e.g. Manitas
de Plata - and please don't tell me you think he's good) and playing
is quite another.
I am also well enough versed in psychology to recognise someone with
an unhealthy respect for the authority conferred by fame. Allying
yourself with famous/established names in the hope and expectation
that you will appear knowledgeable is a very transparent tactic for
those who really do understand.
Konstantin Litovsky <lito...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:3880F9...@mediaone.net...
> David T wrote:
> >
> > As it happens I am very familiar with all the artists you mention
and
> > a good few more besides - some personally - over a far longer
period
> > than five years (that one really got me laughing). The depths of
your
> > ignorance about Flamenco and the arrogance you show in commenting
on
> > matters of which you have such a superficial understanding is
> > staggering.
>
>
Teresa Wiggens
Yesterday I listened to the music and was not impressed and wasn't worth
me making a comment.
However, now I was wondering why there was so much interest in this
thread. (I am reading alt.music.flamenco)
He is in and out of compas. Can't dance to this, but he plays for
dancers? I found no duende in the music. I am surprised to hear that he
learned from gypsies? It doesn't show in this music.
I would question the integrity of the paragraph in his bio about the
Gypsy guitarists being happy to let Philip join in. The Spaniards don't
take well this kind of thing.
Bottom line, I would not buy the album.
David T
> He is in and out of compas. Can't dance to this, but he plays for
> dancers?
It is worth remembering that these are live performances which are of
*solo* guitar - not intended to be accompaniement for dance. The
pieces would be called Bulerias por Baile or some such if that were
the case. Playing for dancers has its own conventions and
sensitivities which Philip is also well versed in (you don't last 2
years at E Cid without knowing how to accompany the baile). Given
this, variations in compas are legitimate - you only have to listen to
Nino Ricardo, Sabicas or virtually any great players to hear them
happily abandon compas if feel that way at the time.
I found no duende in the music. I am surprised to hear that he
> learned from gypsies? It doesn't show in this music.
This is a matter of opinion and one which I disagree with.
> I would question the integrity of the paragraph in his bio about the
> Gypsy guitarists being happy to let Philip join in. The Spaniards
don't
> take well this kind of thing.
This is verging on defamation. This is a matter of historical fact and
the Spaniards 'took very well to Philip'.
> Bottom line, I would not buy the album.
Fair enough but I would be hesitant about making such general comments
about a musician on the basis of the limited material that has so far
been made available.
David
PS Incidentally, (and this is not meant confrontationally) are you a
Flamenco dancer?
Jon Boyes
says...
> Have put a zip file up... try that and let me know if you still have
> problems.
>
Err... where is it? Call me Mr thickie but I can't find a zip file or
link to one anywhere on the site, only that MP3.com link.
--
Jon Boyes
****************************************
..coming soon: half decent website with
lots of Spanish guitar gubbins.
****************************************
Teresa Wiggens
Teresa Wiggens
I first went to Sevilla in 1965. Out of curiosity, who did he study with
in Triana? I have been living in Sevilla one month out of the year for
the last 11 years and might know them. I am married to a Spaniard from
Sevilla. I am a flamenco guitarist.
David T wrote:
>
> Hi Teresa
>
> > He is in and out of compas. Can't dance to this, but he plays for
> > dancers?
>
> It is worth remembering that these are live performances which are of
> *solo* guitar - not intended to be accompaniement for dance. The
> pieces would be called Bulerias por Baile or some such if that were
> the case. Playing for dancers has its own conventions and
> sensitivities which Philip is also well versed in (you don't last 2
> years at E Cid without knowing how to accompany the baile). Given
> this, variations in compas are legitimate - you only have to listen to
> Nino Ricardo, Sabicas or virtually any great players to hear them
> happily abandon compas if feel that way at the time.
>
> I found no duende in the music. I am surprised to hear that he
> > learned from gypsies? It doesn't show in this music.
>
> This is a matter of opinion and one which I disagree with.
>
> > I would question the integrity of the paragraph in his bio about the
> > Gypsy guitarists being happy to let Philip join in. The Spaniards
> don't
> > take well this kind of thing.
>
> This is verging on defamation. This is a matter of historical fact and
> the Spaniards 'took very well to Philip'.
>
> > Bottom line, I would not buy the album.
>
Konstantin Litovsky
temptation snipped
> I know nothing about Flamenco eh? I was brought up with it - my
> father played, my grandfather played, Pepe Martinez was a regular
> house guest and now I play - so don't presume to tell me I don't know
> Sabicas from Carlos Montoya.
Can you direct me to any of your recordings or samples?
> I find it interesting that you equate ownership of material with
> knowing it. If you really seek to understand Flamenco try forgetting
> about tabs and the 'knowledge' you think you have and start reaching
> for duende.
Ok, ok, so you say that flamenco can not be learned?
I'm no more than a student of flamenco (never claimed a notch more than
that), and believe me, there are plenty of efficient methods of learning
the guitar method. The flamenco guitar is evolving as we speak. It is
essential to know what happened when Sabicas and Monotoya went solo and
added tremendous repertoire (Sabicas, b.t.w was more than a traditional
guitarist - he created musical compositions, lots of which I would call
"classical"), but the world is spinning, and things change.
Let me tell you that unless you are a professional guitarist who
can devote much time to music, sheet music (not some tabs!)
is the way to absorb Sabicas and others. Yes, I do spend hours with the
CD player running through every note. The duende you speak of comes
after hours of practicing to play Sabicas and others.
I'm not interested in mere compass, as I will never perform for dancers
and singers (and I really could care less, though I do practice with the
metronome, so that my friends don't laugh at me). It is the opinion of
some flamencologists, that the guitar is now a separate entity, and can
safely evolve by itself. Thus, I'm interested in studying flamenco
composition, and the best way to start is to study Sabicas. How many
complete pieces of his do you play? Sabicas is Sabicas only because of
his enormous creativity in his compositions. I'm interested in
replicating the entire pieces, rather than falsettas.
opinion snipped
>
> I really have no problems with anyone comparing Philip to whoever they
> like and in fact I have answered your comments on his playing - that
> is why the thread has developed, because you didn't like my response
> to your comments about his compas, execution of falsettas, and tempo.
You said nothing...you just said that I have no clue as to what I'm
talking about. I have some background in classical guitar, and I have
heard my share of classical performances, so when somebody does not
play clean (in the flamenco sense, of course) and makes mistakes, I can
hear it. I also am very aware of the stylistic "irregularities", but to
you he is perfect, which is why this thread is here in the first place.
snip
> Philip was giving Flamenco recitals in his early 20's in
> some quite famous venues. You will find that many guitarists who you
> have heard of will certainly be familiar with him. Being publicly
> known is a function of promotion, marketing is one thing (e.g. Manitas
> de Plata - and please don't tell me you think he's good) and playing
> is quite another.
Good that you mentioned Manitas de Plata...I just recently a few tracks
from his CD, and I'm of the opinion that he really stinks.
But you seem to be saying that because Philip was an outsider, he is
allowed to not be as good as the native flamenco guitarists?
Does the name Adam DelMonte say anything to you? You really, really
should check him out on the flamenco-world.com. Supposedly, Gerardo
Nunez may have taken a lot from this guy.
> I am also well enough versed in psychology to recognise someone with
> an unhealthy respect for the authority conferred by fame. Allying
> yourself with famous/established names in the hope and expectation
> that you will appear knowledgeable is a very transparent tactic for
> those who really do understand.
Nope! I ally myself only with those who can recognize talent when they
hear it. In fact, you can't be further from the truth about authority.
Somehow I enjoy Paco and Nunez' playing more than I like the rythmic
string whacking on bad quality CDs. There is a difference between a
"bar-style" flamenco guitar and a "concert-style". Sabicas and Paco
are both Concert style guitarists, and Manitas de Plata and some others
are not.
Konstantin
David T
might be known were Juan Lebron who was a gypsy player and Antonio
Sanlucar (brother of Esteban). Apparently there were a lot of other
players but with the mists of time and all....
This was all before formal studying really took hold so he was playing
with, learning from and just generally hanging out.
Anyone you know?
David
Teresa Wiggens <twi...@nemy.com> wrote in message
news:3881F593...@nemy.com...
Granny Dani
as requested. I suppose you'd call me a copyright freak. :) I've also
snipped all of my original post in an effort to shorten this thing. I
hadn't intended on posting more at all, actually, but I *did* make a
specific claim as to something you said, and felt it only fair to follow it
through. However, since I'm here.... :)
tsk, tsk, Konstantin.
You're quite handy with the snipping... convenient for you, I imagine, since
I never said you didn't have the right to do anything. (If you're going to
quote someone, do so... don't paraphrase what you think you've read. The
only reason one would do that is to skew things in one's own favour.) What
you've actually snipped is my observation that, as you're the one setting
yourself up as an expert on good flamenco, the onus is on you to prove that
you have some right to the claim of expertise. I certainly never questioned
your right to your opinion, nor would I. What follows is what I actually
said. If anyone needs to re-read it to place it in further context, the
post is still up, and if not, then it can be found quite easily at deja
news.
> You are the one proclaiming yourself
> the expert, therefore the onus is on you to prove to us what right you
> have to that claim, if anything needs proving, which it doesn't. Most
> definitely, nothing you've posted thus far grants you that right, as far
> as I can see.
I'm very sorry to hear that you think music and its players are there to be
criticised and dismembered. I was under the (obviously mistaken) impression
that music was there to be enjoyed. And whether these newsgroups are here
for the purpose of criticism is open to debate. After all, I don't see the
word 'critic' in any of its forms in the newsgroup title.
You call me 'just' an aficionado of flamenco... this is somehow supposed to
be a *bad* thing? <laughing> Thank you!... at least you recognise that
much, and as far as I'm concerned, it's a compliment. What utter rubbish it
is to imply that music can't be appreciated properly if the person listening
to it can't play it themselves! By *those* standards, you don't have much
room to comment on flamenco either. You're saying that if one can't play
the music, one has no business commenting on the music, but doesn't that
work both ways? This appears to be a double standard, because you state
that you're not an accomplished guitarist yourself (only a few falsettas),
yet you presume to comment as if you were an expert. By your definition of
the term, you yourself are 'just' an aficionado. You keep saying that
you've not heard the opinions of any accomplished guitarists, yet for all
you know, I could *be* an accomplished guitarist. *How* do you know?...
because someone uses a form of words and commentary that you accept as
'accomplished'? You'd just better hope that I'm not, eh <ggg>?
Oh, and used properly, 'aficionado' simply means 'devotee', which places
everyone who loves flamenco and devotes themselves to it in the category,
including Paco de Lucia.
We are *all* entitled to our opinions, yet I confess that it makes me very
sad that so much good music is placed under the knife (and so much bad is
lauded), and even sadder that so many people are so keen on following
popular opinion that they fail to make their own decisions about what they
find enjoyable, and not just with music. (And, yes, Konstantin, I have no
doubt that you'll find this statement sappy and 'uninformed'. Still, you're
the one who really loses, not me, so I don't mind too much if that's what
you think.)
You say that there's no 'proof' that he's good. Is any *needed*?! And who
would determine the criteria for this 'proof'?... what a bizarre concept!
'Proof' is in one's pleasure or lack thereof in a work, it's as simple as
that. Anything else is so much hot air, as has been shown time and time
again throughout history, with many art forms. *All* art forms are
subjective. There may be some agreement on what constitutes 'good' in
different periods, but in 50 years that can easily be overturned and
replaced with the next concept, which will then be considered equally valid.
If you'd lived in van Gogh's time, you would have no doubt torn him to
pieces, because he wasn't a 'popular' artist. Today he's a master. Go
figure, eh? So I don't put too much stock in your opinion about Philip's
playing, nor should you in mine (as if <g>).
My sole purpose in responding to you at all is not for your benefit, by the
way, but for those people (lurkers like myself) who might actually be swayed
by your Sophism. You're quite good at twisting things just that little bit
and making them *appear* valid and reasonable, aren't you? The problem with
Sophism is that it doesn't hold up very well under scrutiny.
The bottom line is that the only thing anyone can say about any artist is
that one either likes their music or doesn't. If you think Philip is bad,
then for you he *is*. If I think that he's excellent, then for me he *is*.
We will both have people who agree and disagree with us (by default), but I
must say, at least I'm familiar with a *lot* more of his music than two
mpeg's on a website somewhere, as are the other people who've said that he's
good. For what it's worth. :)
Be careful about making rash judgements based on only a little information.
You may find yourself having to eat your words at some point <smile>. A
*good* musician (*or* critic) would say, 'I'd like to hear more before I
decide'.
Oh, and I'm not angry. I have nothing to be angry about.
Also while I'm here... your most recent reply to David? What *is* this
obsession with having him 'prove' things to you? I would ask, in reply to
that, where are *your* recordings or samples? Where do you get this idea
that people need to prove things to *you*? To remind you, David was
responding to your accusation that he can't tell one guitarist from
another... he never claimed to be a brilliant guitarist himself, though he
may be. One can never tell. Very curious mindset you have.
I'll look for an original work of yours over the years. I seriously doubt
I'll forget your name <g>.
NOW I can re-lurk and leave you to it. Have fun. :)
Granny Dani
PS Out of curiosity, how old are you?
"Konstantin Litovsky" <lito...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:388131...@mediaone.net...
>
> Snip "you have no right" nonsense, because, you see...I DO have that
> right...
> music is there to be criticized, and so are performers...this is the
> right
> newsgroup, the last time I checked.
>
> Another afficionado...you probably haven't picked up the guitar at all.
> What nonsense...music is there to be dismembered and analyzed...EVEN
> flamenco!
> On the other hand, not many have the SKILLS to do so (I'm still learning
> --
> but doesn't mean I can't do it).
>
> Since when were the gypsies the sole owners of flamenco?
>
> This is YOUR opinion, and you are entitled to one, just like everyone
> else.
> So far, there wasn't any proof that he was any good (I haven't heard a
> flamenco guitarist's opinion...just some "afficionados").
>
> Well, well, now, lets not get angry. Where in the world you got that
> idea?
> Copyright is copyright, and I have no clue where you pulled that one
> from.
> List the entire "old posting", or else don't talk nonsense.
> What copyrighted material are you talking about, and what does it
> have to do with Paco Pena? (and for that matter, with me?)
>
> So far, I was the only one on the whole group who listened to the
> provided
> sound files, except the triumvirate here. I'm still waiting for more
> independent
> responses. Preferably those of accomplished guitarists. I'm not one of
> them,
> and I will respect a good analysis when I hear one.
>
> He is not in the same league as the ones I named. And when did I fault
> any one of them?
> Don't assme too much, you may end up making the wrong conclusions!
>
> Oh, and by the way, we have free speech on this ng, so whether you like
> it or not,
> I will post my own independent analysis for those who would somehow
> mistake
> Philip for being a grand flamenco guitarist, just so that they don't
> fall in a trap
> by listening to dirty/erroneous playing and bad compas.
>
> Well, I don't plan to, as long as we have mediocrities who claim to own
> the right
> to play as they wish.
> Konstantin
Subject: Re: Reading music
Date: 09/16/1999
Author: Konstantin Litovsky <lito...@mediaone.net>
Tim Berens wrote:
>
> Konstantin:
>
> I just listened to my copy of "Friday Night in San Fransisco", with
> Paco, Al DiMeloa and John McLaughlin. It's a real chopsfest.
Well, here's the thing...with a pick one can easily get to 230 bpm... Im
talking "fingers" - just Paco...and yes, on that CD, Paco is NOT playing
the fastest...
> Tell you what, if you say there are 230 BPM sixteenth note scales on
> one of those recordings, I'll believe you. I'm not going to buy and
> clock all those recordings. If you'd care to cite a specific
> recording with 230 BPM sixteenth note scales, I'll be happy to buy it
> and then I won't have to just believe you. I'll even post a message
> to everyone saying you were right and I was wrong.
Ok, ok, you don't have to do the "ego" thing - thats not why Im doing this.
What I will do is this - I will select a passage, where Paco plays
scales...and I
will cut it out, and make an mp3 of it (I bet Paco wont mind)...and I will
send it to you for evaluation.
Agreed?
Konstantin
P.S. It will be short enough so that anybody can download it (For
educational purpose,
that is allowed, for the copyright freaks here)
David T
selections from longer passages and I was coming to the conclusion
that the one minute selections I had chosen were being 'reviewed' out
of context. The 'lo fi' option on MP3.com will give you a reasonably
sized download of the entire pieces - is that ok?
Also, there will be an Alegrias from an earlier album appearing at
http://www.mp3.com/PhilipJohnLee in about 12 hours (they need to
verify the encoding first hence the delay).
Failing all that I'll send you something by e-mail if you'd like.
All the best
David
Jon Boyes <ma...@jonboyes.co.uknospam> wrote in message
news:MPG.12ebe26fd...@news.freenetname.co.uk...
ya...@my-deja.com
Konstantin Litovsky <lito...@mediaone.net>
wrote:
I am detecting a lot of egg throwing. What a shame
that this forum has to fall to that low ebb! I
can't understand why anyone would want to belittle
and attack a musician without really hearing the
whole piece of music. The little snatches of music
that Philip John Lee plays are taken out of
context. You should buy the CD and listen to how
the music builds. It is exciting, it is not
boring. It is very creative, tastefully played and
it is fun. Oh to have that great of a technique!.
I have played guitar and flamenco guitar for over
35 years and really appreciate what is happening in
Philip John Lee's music. I have been fortunate to
have 3 of his early records and lots more tapes of
concerts that he has given. What a great privilege
it is to have them in my extensive collection of
flamenco music. Philip John Lee's recordings are
right up there with the best of the music. Are we
not fortunate to have musicians of this quality
among us to inspire us to play better? By
listening to all the great players we become better
musicians and have greater appreciation for what is
good. Philip has spent many years playing for
dancers and singers and he has great compas and
understanding of all the forms. He also is an
outstanding teacher. He played at one party and all
the professional musicians that were there were in
awe. He is a musicians musician. They ALL asked
him where he would be playing so they could hear
more.
Every time I have heard him play I am inspired for
a long time. Some of us are so used to hearing
groups with rhythm sections, cajon, nuevo flamenco,
dancers and singers, that to hear one man playing
solo sounds different. It is hard to play for a
couple of hours solo. His playing is clean and
beautiful and he performs well in concert. Where
did the new flamenco come from? The old. Each
performer in the past has added something.
Flamenco is a living changing musical form. I hope
that we can appreciate all of it. I hope that solo
doesn't dies out and all that is left is groups.
Personally I enjoy all of the artists, new and old,
the soloist, the groups and what they bring to
this ever changing form of music. Yvetta
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
ya...@my-deja.com
this ever changing form of music. YAW
Teresa Wiggens
Venta Vega, not sure. David missed, and I can't imagine why, Diego del
Gastor. Foreigners from everywhere were learning from him. He was the
only gypsy in the area teaching foreigners at that time.
William Jennings
Konstantin,
I sent you a 15 page fax with documentation for the Segovia-Barrios
thread about 45 minutes ago. A conformation has not
been reported as yet. Plug in your fax machine. If for
some reason it didn't come through, I will re-send it tomorrow.
Figured I might catch you here.
doc
Konstantin Litovsky
http://www.flamenco-world.com/flamenco/ficha.sql?id=711
This is a real flamenco artist. Clean and crisp. Original.
I don't know about what level of playing is acceptable
in U.K., but I won't settle for anything less. And so shouldn't
anybody who is always looking for something new and fresh.
I will soon have a sample of a local flamenco guitarist, just
to give everybody a taste of what I'm used to hearing.
Konstantin
P.S. Adam Del Monte lives in the U.S. Here's his website:
David T
He wasn't treated as an outsider because he had friends within the
Gypsy community and spent time showing them other styles of guitar as
well. My whole point is that Philip is unusual in this respect. Like
most good guitarists (and he was good then in other fields), they
traded information.
Teresa Wiggens <twi...@nemy.com> wrote in message
news:3882399E...@nemy.com...
David T
'better' than the other - all things are relative.
Those players are accomplished technicians but far more Nuevo Flamenco
than traditional so you are comparing chalk and cheese. The
production values are also very different - many more studio tweaks
evident.
Arguably it is the traditional style which is closer to the heart of
Flamenco. Nuevo has been greatly extended by Jazz conceptualisation -
no bad thing in itself but if you like this but not the traditional
style then I'd suggest you are throwing the baby out with the
bathwater.
To criticise a guitarist who plays within a traditional style is very
short-sighted - newer does not always mean better. Which is not to say
that Philip is 'better', but is 'different'. For example, I personally
can only take so much of the Nuevo style because to my ear it lacks
cajones, grit and passion. In my opinion a Flamenco guitarist should
value those properties (above technique) and many later players have
suffocated them under layers of production and compression and
suffered from the desire to play like Paco (which most,
understandably, cannot).
Still, horses for courses.
Konstantin Litovsky <lito...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:38829F...@mediaone.net...
Steve Cobham
>I am detecting a lot of egg throwing.
You said it.
>What a shame
>that this forum has to fall to that low ebb!
That all depends on which forum you mean.
This thread is crossposted to three ngs. I've picked it up through
UKMG and a lot of people are now muttering "killfile".
And now, mutter, mutter:
Killfile.
Steve.
================================================
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http://users.powernet.co.uk/guitars/tuition.htm
E-mail: st...@XSPAMXguitarsXMAPSX.powernet.co.uk
(Please remove obvious spam deterrent)
Interested in Zappa? Guitar? Beer?
Save money by setting up your own guitar!
How about trading Zappa and Danny Gatton tapes?
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================================================
David T
Philip John Lee and Adam Del Monte were on the same bill together at a
Santa Monica Sunday concert organised by Alberto del Mar - I
understand mutual respect was the order of the day.
Small world eh?
Konstantin Litovsky <lito...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
Konstantin Litovsky
>
> After all that I forgot the main point.
> Philip John Lee and Adam Del Monte were on the same bill together at a
> Santa Monica Sunday concert organised by Alberto del Mar - I
> understand mutual respect was the order of the day.
> Small world eh?
>
> > Try this link:
> >
> > http://www.flamenco-world.com/flamenco/ficha.sql?id=711
> >
> > This is a real flamenco artist. Clean and crisp. Original.
> > I don't know about what level of playing is acceptable
> > in U.K., but I won't settle for anything less. And so shouldn't
> > anybody who is always looking for something new and fresh.
> > I will soon have a sample of a local flamenco guitarist, just
> > to give everybody a taste of what I'm used to hearing.
> > Konstantin
> > P.S. Adam Del Monte lives in the U.S. Here's his website:
> >
> > http://flamencofusion.tierranet.com/index.htm
But the next thing is that Adam Del Monte opened Paco De Lucia's concert
someplace in U.S. - that is something (Paco usually opens his concerts
himself!).
Konstantin
P.S. Just to say a word on "new" flamenco. Adam Del Monte is new
flamenco. You shouldn't offend him by saying there is "jazz
conceptualization" in his music. It comes directly from flamenco,
and the "funky" stuff is "flamenco conceptualization" more than anything
else. I've heard a fair number of guitarists -- Paco De Lucia has
always been innovative, but he is improving on flamenco using flamenco.
It is hard to explain, but if you listen to his albums, the only thing
you can possibly call "jazz" is a chord or two, which really have
nothing to do with jazz, but which fall in place if you use them in a
certain way. Paco uses his chords in flamenco way, and so that he plays
flamenco, not jazz. For example, however hard Al DiMeola or McLaughlin
would try to play flamenco, all they'd be able to play is jazz (blues).
However, Paco is the opposite -- if you heard him imporovise (70s-80s),
all he played was flamenco. Jazz helped him gain full control of his
improvisation skills, which is why he is a notch above all other
flamenco guitarists, because most can't improvise if their life depended
on it (i.e. play without using any falsettas, as in a good rumba), that
is unless they have tried something like what Paco did -- play with
jazzmen and learn how to improvise on the spot.
Teresa Wiggens
David T wrote:
>
> Sorry Jon, you're not being thick. I took it down as they were
> selections from longer passages and I was coming to the conclusion
> that the one minute selections I had chosen were being 'reviewed' out
> of context. The 'lo fi' option on MP3.com will give you a reasonably
> sized download of the entire pieces - is that ok?
>
> Also, there will be an Alegrias from an earlier album appearing at
> http://www.mp3.com/PhilipJohnLee in about 12 hours (they need to
> verify the encoding first hence the delay).
Can't find it yet.
Steve Dix
Aw Gawd, this is threatening to take over UKMGNG...
Steve Dix ==================================================
http://www.snorty.net/ Weekly Mini-car cartoon
http://stage.vitaminic.co.uk/the_simpletons/ Hear our MP3s
OldUncleMe
""David T" <boot...@hotmail.com>"
posted "Re: Philip John Lee - Flamenco guitar"
to "alt.music.flamenco" :
<big snip, many points & counter points>
-->Being publicly
-->known is a function of promotion, marketing is one thing (e.g. Manitas
-->de Plata - and please don't tell me you think he's good) and playing
-->is quite another.
Er, uhm, on what grounds do we disdain the "Little Hands of Silver"? Not
just because I grew up listening to him, but that I think that he is in
some ways, though perhaps not a "guitar mechanic" nor a human metronome, an
embodiment of life from the guitar performance. __Disabuse__ of this
notion welcomed, as is a quanfication of life itself!
Take for my example: Castagna. This is to me a question of style. /ts
PS: new internet terms:
flame, flame bait, trolling, kiss {keep it short & sweet(meaningful!)}
/ts
"I really don't want to cause you any pain. All I want to know is:
'Is it SAFE?'"