Zilla Cabs - am I being unreasonable?
Steve Robinson
I recently ordered and paid for a Matchless style 2x12 combo cabinet from
Zilla Cabs.
http://www.zillacabs.com/ (site down as I type).
When it arrived I was disappointed to find that the vinyl covering over the
contoured lip at the front top had been cut and pieced to make it go around
the curves.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stephen.p.robinson/images/cab-left-side.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stephen.p.robinson/images/cab-right-side.jpg
I've never seen this on any commercially available product but Paul at Zilla
Cabs says:
"Just about any high class amp you will find with a front profile like on
the matchless amps will have these cuts in the tolex."
and
"The reason that the tolex has to be cut the way it is is it isnt possible
to heat and stretch thicker tolexes around thse kind of angles, the reason a
lot of amp companies can do this is because they use lower grade tolexes
which will stretch but in time will also come away from the wood."
I'm not happy about the vinyl being pieced, and to my eyes it looks pretty
untidy. I don't know what "high class" amps Paul is referring to as all
those I've seen (including Matchless) have neat with unbroken vinyl. E.g.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stephen.p.robinson/images/lightning.jpg
Basically he's saying that because the covering he has used is such "high
quality" it has to be cut and that all these other amps I've seen use a much
inferior type of covering.
The upshot is, I have a cabinet that I am not happy with and Paul is saying
he won't remedy it.
To his credit, Paul did offer to replace the rear panel as the aperture is
too large.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stephen.p.robinson/images/cab-rear-view.jpg
Although he says that:
"The reason there was a bigger gap on the rear pannel was purely because
most customers ask for it this way"
Why would they?
Next steps...?
Woody
> The upshot is, I have a cabinet that I am not happy with and Paul is saying
> he won't remedy it.
>
> To his credit, Paul did offer to replace the rear panel as the aperture is
> too large.
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stephen.p.robinson/images/cab-rear-view.jpg
>
> Although he says that:
>
> "The reason there was a bigger gap on the rear pannel was purely because
> most customers ask for it this way"
>
> Why would they?
It doesn't matter if everyone in the world does it this way, as a
customer of what I am assuming is an online order, if you are unhappy
you have a right to return it for a full refund under the distance
selling regulations.
I don't know whether it is supposed to be like that or not, but it does
have a homemade look. Whether that is a bad thing I guess is up to your
own view on asthetics!
--
Woody
Steve Robinson
news:1jacn2y.r7qa741ls8kw4N%use...@alienrat.co.uk...
> Steve Robinson <stephen.p.rob...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> The upshot is, I have a cabinet that I am not happy with and Paul is
>> saying
>> he won't remedy it.
>
> customer of what I am assuming is an online order, if you are unhappy
> you have a right to return it for a full refund under the distance
> selling regulations.
Unfortunately (but perhaps understandably) DSR does not apply to custom-made
items.
Steve.
Woody
Oh ok, well, the sale of goods act should, the DSR only extends your
rights under that (or more importantly the time). If you believe that it
is not of the expected quality (more importantly you think that a
reasonable person would consider that it was not at the expected
quality, assuming you aren't reasonable!)
--
Woody
Steve Robinson
Thanks Woody - that's exactly the aim of this post, to sanity check whether
I'm being reasonable or not before I take things to (say) Trading Standards.
Steve.
Woody
The crux of it is whether it is reasonable. It depends on the price as
well. If i had got that quite cheap, or some friend of mine had done it
for me as a favour, I wouldn't be unduly worried about it, after all it
still works and does the job. Unfortunately it reminds me of some of the
stuff my dad did (and he had the DIY abilities of an accountant, which
was no real problem as he was one) and if I had paid any real money for
it, I would be more than a little unhappy about it.
I am guessing from the implication that it wasn't cheap though?
--
Woody
no66y�
"Steve Robinson" wrote in message
> Basically he's saying that because the covering he has used is such "high
> quality" it has to be cut and that all these other amps I've seen use a
> much inferior type of covering.
I'm no expert ... but I've never seen tolex cut like that.
They don't do it on any commercial or boutique amp I've ever seen.
I'm assuming the item wasn't cheap!
If it was bought on credit card is there any recourse there?
Good luck, keep us posted.
Cheers
--
no66y�
no66y AT gmx DOT co DOT uk
Peter McCormack
Looking at the "finish" I would be equally unhappy, and his proposition re.
the quality of the material used sounds like bollocks to me. If the stuff
can't be formed to decently fit the substrate, then it doesn't meet the
requirement, and to attempt to suggest that it's higher quality is
nonsense. If they were so keen to use that grade of material (note "grade",
not "quality"), maybe they should have removed that contour from the design
of the cab.
Canvas might be higher quality than linen, but you wouldn't want to blow
your nose on it.
markd
> I've never seen this on any commercially available product but Paul at Zilla
> Cabs says:
>
> "Just about any high class amp you will find with a front profile like on
> the matchless amps will have these cuts in the tolex."
>
> and
>
> "The reason that the tolex has to be cut the way it is is it isnt possible
> to heat and stretch thicker tolexes around thse kind of angles, the reason a
> lot of amp companies can do this is because they use lower grade tolexes
> which will stretch but in time will also come away from the wood."
>
Steve
this peeked my interest because it just so happened that I was looking
at Matchless amps last week, & I don't recall having noticed any such
thing on their finishes - so...I wenrt back for another look ...if you
go on the Matchless site and bring up the page "photo's" from the main
site menu you'll find lots of pretty close-up pics around the controls
area ....upshot : not a hint of dodgy cutting in the Tolex.
I also had a critical look around the same sort of area on the top of
my Cornford Carerra - again its pretty flawlessly finished ...in fact
it has got a cut and join, but its near invisible...
so, I recon you've got fair cause to feel its not a good enough job.
Good luck with the follow-up
Mark
George Weston
"Steve Robinson" <stephen.p.rob...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:245Tm.12805$Ym4...@text.news.virginmedia.com...
Are you sure?
What about computers, where you specify to the firm the type/size/speed of
processor, hard disk, sound card, etc. and then they make it for you?
That's also "custom-made" in my book and firms like Dell rely on the "build
it yourself" sales model.
Any lawyers in today?
George
Steve Robinson
news:7o4qfpF...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> Unfortunately (but perhaps understandably) DSR does not apply to
>> custom-made items.
>
> Are you sure?
I was just going by the OFT's business guide.Para 3.28:
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf
Steve.
no66y�
http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/
Bob Sherunckle
It's not the sort of finish I would expect on any product, far less a high
end / boutique product.
That just looks hand made - and not in a good way.
Andrew(lefty)
"Steve Robinson" <stephen.p.rob...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:QG3Tm.12777$Ym4....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
Take a look at Fenders Hot Rod Deluxe. They have a similar shape on top and
there is a cut and patch used but it looks ok. Perhaps it's a question of
how skilfully its been done (noting the post re: Cornford) ?
Zilla cabs are about �220 each IIRC and I would expect a proper pro job as
good as Fender or any other manufacturer for that.
Andrew
Dave Van
> Hi guys - I need a sanity check please before I take this any further.
Consider yourself checked... and sane.
>
> I recently ordered and paid for a Matchless style 2x12 combo cabinet from
> Zilla Cabs.
> http://www.zillacabs.com/ (site down as I type).
>
> When it arrived I was disappointed to find that the vinyl covering over the
> contoured lip at the front top had been cut and pieced to make it go around
> the curves.
>
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stephen.p.robinson/images/cab-left-side.jpg
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stephen.p.robinson/images/cab-right-side.jpg
>
> I've never seen this on any commercially available product but Paul at Zilla
> Cabs says:
>
> "Just about any high class amp you will find with a front profile like on
> the matchless amps will have these cuts in the tolex."
Did he cite specific examples and supply images to support such a claim
as that? I didn't think so.
>
> and
>
> "The reason that the tolex has to be cut the way it is is it isnt possible
> to heat and stretch thicker tolexes around thse kind of angles, the reason a
> lot of amp companies can do this is because they use lower grade tolexes
> which will stretch but in time will also come away from the wood."
As an industrial designer with experience designing and developing
institutional furniture as well as many other products, I have a broad
understanding of materials and their properties, including upholstery
vinyls. Part of the problem appears to be the design of the substrate.
Look at the image of the Matchless that you provided a link to below.
The S curve setback detail is long and lazy and occurs over a horizontal
distance of about 60mm - 70mm. The cabinet that you bought has that
detail compressed down to an area only about 25mm - 35mm wide which
yields very tight corners resulting in too much material on the outside
radius and too little over the inside fillet. The guy needs to update
his geometry. Not only will he be able to accomplish what everyone else
does, the aesthetics will improve dramatically, IMO.
>
> I'm not happy about the vinyl being pieced, and to my eyes it looks pretty
> untidy. I don't know what "high class" amps Paul is referring to as all
> those I've seen (including Matchless) have neat with unbroken vinyl. E.g.
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stephen.p.robinson/images/lightning.jpg
>
> Basically he's saying that because the covering he has used is such "high
> quality" it has to be cut and that all these other amps I've seen use a much
> inferior type of covering.
>
> The upshot is, I have a cabinet that I am not happy with and Paul is saying
> he won't remedy it.
>
> To his credit, Paul did offer to replace the rear panel as the aperture is
> too large.
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stephen.p.robinson/images/cab-rear-view.jpg
>
> Although he says that:
>
> "The reason there was a bigger gap on the rear pannel was purely because
> most customers ask for it this way"
Some amp manufacturers leave a gap and some don't. I've never seen one
that big and usually the gap is created by mounting the control panel in
from the back panel slightly not by making the cutout larger. The reason
for a gap is that sometimes the on board speakers are plugged into the
extension jacks rather than hard wired in. I'm not an expert and to be
honest, I don't even own a tube amp at the moment. But I have looked at
a lot of products like this and while the maker has a point about the
gap, his seems to be lacking in execution.
>
> Why would they?
>
> Next steps...?
>
>
Road trip? You know he wouldn't be giving the runaround to someone
standing at his door step.
I wish I knew what to do and what resources were available in your part
of the world to aid in this situation. I wish you luck. Hopefully
something I wrote will help you talk him into giving you a much deserved
refund.
Good luck and peace to you and your loved ones.
Dave
Steve Robinson
news:hfjhfk$nol$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Steve Robinson wrote:
>> I recently ordered and paid for a Matchless style 2x12 combo cabinet from
>> Zilla Cabs.
>> http://www.zillacabs.com/ (site down as I type).
>>
>> When it arrived I was disappointed to find that the vinyl covering over
>> the contoured lip at the front top had been cut and pieced to make it go
>> around the curves.
>
> institutional furniture as well as many other products, I have a broad
> understanding of materials and their properties, including upholstery
> vinyls. Part of the problem appears to be the design of the substrate.
> Look at the image of the Matchless that you provided a link to below. The
> S curve setback detail is long and lazy and occurs over a horizontal
> distance of about 60mm - 70mm. The cabinet that you bought has that detail
> compressed down to an area only about 25mm - 35mm wide which yields very
> tight corners resulting in too much material on the outside radius and too
> little over the inside fillet. The guy needs to update his geometry. Not
> only will he be able to accomplish what everyone else does, the aesthetics
> will improve dramatically, IMO.
Thanks Dave - my thoughts exactly and I have previously suggested this
(although not in so much detail or so eloquently) to the maker hoping that
he would view it as a learning opportunity and a chance to improve his
product.
Steve.
George Weston
3.38 actually.
I see that covers my question about computers (they *are* returnable) but
not to things like custom-made blinds or curtains, which are true
"one-offs".
How "bespoke" were your cabs, Steve?
George
Steve Robinson
>
> "Steve Robinson" <stephen.p.rob...@ntlworld.com> wrote in
> message news:rHaTm.12926$Ym4....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>> "George Weston" <geow...@NOSPAMgooglemail.com> wrote in message
>> news:7o4qfpF...@mid.individual.net...
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately (but perhaps understandably) DSR does not apply to
>>>> custom-made items.
>>>
>>> Are you sure?
>>
>> I was just going by the OFT's business guide.Para 3.28:
>> http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft698.pdf
>>
> I see that covers my question about computers (they *are* returnable) but
> not to things like custom-made blinds or curtains, which are true
> "one-offs".
> How "bespoke" were your cabs, Steve?
Bespoke enough I think. Sale of Goods Act still applies though.
Under the Sale of Goods Act 1979, goods must be of 'Satisfactory quality'
and reach the standard a reasonable person would expect taking into account
the price and any description. The law says that goods that are of
satisfactory quality are free from minor defects, have good appearance and
finish and are durable, safe and fit for all the purposes for which such
goods are commonly supplied.
http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/after_you_buy/know-your-rights/SGAknowyourrights/
Cheers,
Steve.
no66y�
"Dave Van" wrote in message
> Good luck and peace to you and your loved ones.
WB. Dave
Hows the Windy City these days?
persisten...@yahoo.com
It's 20 years since I studied purchasing law, so it might have
changed, but there's two fundamental clauses - particularly in
relation to mail order.
1) 'Fitness for purpose'. If they work, they're ok.
2) 'As described'. This is the one which is most important for mail
order - the item has to look like the picture. There may be
sub-clauses - may be supplied in a different colour etc, or even
specifications may be different and so-on, but considering mail order
can only give you a picture and a spec then if you see one thing and
get another...
I suspect you have a firm case for having the covering re-done to a
higher or at least acceptable standard. If the guy at Zilla has a
problem with the quality of his Tolex then you can always suggest he
uses something lower quality.
On the other hand, you could always strip the lot off, paint the boxes
black & re-cover the speakers with tie-died old sheets and tell
everyone you got them second-hand from Gerry Garcia's roadie...:-)
Pete
Brian Hoggard
Hi,
I was interested to read this because I actually travelled down to Hounslow
on Saturday to meet Paul to get him to rebuild a combo for me with a new,
larger speaker.
I won't bore you with all the details in this post but just thought you
should know that one of the things he pointed out was that they use a
thicker type of tolex than is used on most cabs and that they use plastic
corners to hide the overlaps. So I, at least, am going into this with my
eyes open.
Clearly the issue you have is not to do with corners but I thought you might
be interested to hear that he did raise it with me.
Cheers,
Brian.
Dave Van
> "Dave Van" wrote in message
>> Good luck and peace to you and your loved ones.
>
>
> WB. Dave
> Hows the Windy City these days?
>
>
Hey Pete.
Well. Bracing for Winter now. I spent the past few weekends preparing
the outside of the house and getting the yard ready for cold and snow.
It's been a pretty mild November so hopefully, when it's all done,
Winter will seem short!
I actually put holiday lights up outside for the first time in several
years. Mostly because I finally got around to repairing our one outdoor
electrical outlet!
Have not done much playing lately but I recently built a Telecaster body
in SolidWorks on my computer and I am going to have my buddy machine it
on his CNC router. I'm planning an orange body with cream binding and a
tortoise shell pickguard. I suppose at the rate I work it will be
finished around the time Hayley is graduating college! (she hasn't
started yet)
How are things over on your continent?
Peace
DV