Taylor vs. Cheap Yamaha

Dan

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May 15, 2003, 9:15:44 AM5/15/03

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Hi all, first post here...

I still have my first guitar from about 5 years ago, an acoustic Yamaha
FG-411 solid top. However, recently I picked up a Taylor 410 from eBay.
After having had it for about 6 months I realise I much prefer the Yamaha in
terms of pretty much everything apart from looks. I like the sound and feel
of the Yamaha a whole lot more, the Taylor sounds dull and empty in
comparison. Have I gone insane? It seems strange that a ~£150 cheapo Yamaha
could appeal so much more than a ~£1200 or whatever Taylor! Anyone else had
similar situations I'd be interested to hear about them!

Cheers,
Dan

adrianfoden

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May 15, 2003, 10:13:27 AM5/15/03

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"Dan" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:5qMwa.5363$Mu3....@newsfep4-glfd.server.ntli.net...

> Hi all, first post here...
>
> I still have my first guitar from about 5 years ago, an acoustic Yamaha
> FG-411 solid top. However, recently I picked up a Taylor 410 from eBay.
> After having had it for about 6 months I realise I much prefer the Yamaha
in
> terms of pretty much everything apart from looks. I like the sound and
feel
> of the Yamaha a whole lot more, the Taylor sounds dull and empty in
> comparison.

hrm. There's no reason on earth why the Yamaha should be utterly outclassed
by the Taylor, it's all just a matter of degree. Indeed, factor in the long
relationship you have with your yamaha and the fact that it may be a bit
more played in than the Taylor and I bet you're starting off on a strong
foot with your yamaha. If you've built a substantial amount of your style
and playing effort around the yamaha it may well feel more natural...more
comfortable and familiar to your ear.

All of this of course kind of discounts the Taylor sound. It's not for
everyone, speaking personally there are very _few_ Taylors that I've played
that immediately leap out at me as great *sounding* guitars. There are some
(love the 'baby', really liked a K14 I tried once) but what Taylor knock out
as their consistent signature sound is just not for me... it's all horses
for courses. As you've found out there does not necessarily have to be a
giant leap in sound at a given price point..

Maybe you're looking for something else... I think these are both classic
dreadnought shapes... maybe you should try another shape? Either way you may
be best served by going on what you *hear* in your next guitar.

Nothings cast in stone, offload the Taylor, seek out another instrument that
sounds great... you may find something stunning that will be with you for
life and who knows... maybe save a few bob too!

Jordan Humber

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May 15, 2003, 10:39:49 AM5/15/03

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Spooky - I'm in almost the same situation....

I have a Yamaha FG-411SCE which was my first guitar, from about 6 years ago.
I've put it against my friends new £1000 Takamine, and it blows it away.
I think alot of it is down to the nature of acoustics - they get better with
age.
Certainly in the last year my Yamaha has really come alive with
responsiveness, whereas the Takamine feels boxy and very stiff.

What can you do? If you like the Yamaha, keep playing it.
Don't think it can't be a good guitar because it didn't cost four-figures.

On the other hand, I recently played a new Martin 000-16GT, and it was
amazing.
Dunno what they do to their guitars, but the overall balance of sounds was
incredible.
If you're determined to buy a new acoustic, take a look at the Martin, I
think they're around the grand mark.

HTH,

Jordan.

"Dan" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message
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Jordan Humber

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May 15, 2003, 10:43:10 AM5/15/03

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Spooky - I'm in almost the same situation....

I have a Yamaha FG-411SCE which was my first guitar, from about 6 years ago.
I've put it against my friends new £1000 Takamine, and it blows it away.
I think alot of it is down to the nature of acoustics - they get better with
age.
Certainly in the last year my Yamaha has really come alive with
responsiveness, whereas the Takamine feels boxy and very stiff.

What can you do? If you like the Yamaha, keep playing it.
Don't think it can't be a good guitar because it didn't cost four-figures.

On the other hand, I recently played a new Martin 000-16GT, and it was
amazing.
Dunno what they do to their guitars, but the overall balance of sounds was
incredible.
If you're determined to buy a new acoustic, take a look at the Martin, I
think they're around the grand mark.

HTH,

Jordan

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Dan

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May 15, 2003, 12:19:08 PM5/15/03

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"adrianfoden" <n...@thank.you> wrote in message
news:ba071q$8d1$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...

Yep, I think I will be parting company with it shortly. I guess the moral is
not to buy a guitar without playing it first! But I got a great deal so I
should hopefully *make* money on it rather than losing anything. That's a
Taylor and an Ovation both whipped by my budget Yamaha! Any recommendations
on good acoustic makes to try that aren't so mainstream? I've played a few
Martin's and thought they were great, but I'm sure there's plenty of less
well known brands that are just as good (and maybe slightly cheaper).
Looking for a good all-rounder tho my preferred playing style is folky
fingerpicking etc.

Cheers,
Dan

Daniel C

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May 15, 2003, 2:10:31 PM5/15/03

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It happens. I remember trying out a USA standard tele with an ash body
(apparently very desirable) and I felt my Affinity Series Squire tele at
home with upgraded pickups blew it away in ever department apart from
the neck.

As for your Yamaha, stick with it! Taylors are very popular so you
should have any trouble at all getting it sold on. If I were you I'd go
to a shop with a large stock of acoustic guitars and take the Taylor for
purchasing power and the yamaha for comparision purposes.

Daniel C.

adrianfoden

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May 16, 2003, 5:55:02 AM5/16/03

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>Any recommendations
> on good acoustic makes to try that aren't so mainstream? I've played a few
> Martin's and thought they were great, but I'm sure there's plenty of less
> well known brands that are just as good (and maybe slightly cheaper).
> Looking for a good all-rounder tho my preferred playing style is folky
> fingerpicking etc.

Well...
I think many of the Simon & Patrick / Art & Lutherie guitars are great value
for money - they offer all solid timber guitars for not much money. If you
want to take a step up from them and get somethign with a little magic you
could look at Lowden, Fylde. I've tried a couple of nice Northworthy
guitars... there are others as well but I'll repeat my earlier point - it's
all about sound.

Little tip? Try something with a cedar top. Normally the preserve of
classicals a steel strung cedar topped acoustic can be a bit of a
revelation. More immediately pleasing than a spruce one and certainly a lot
more 'giving' in the first couple of years.

Peter Rawlinson

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May 17, 2003, 8:05:05 AM5/17/03

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"Dan" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message
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Well this is interesting, I kinda did the reverse a couple of years ago. I
wanted a decent acoustic so went to local emporium with separate well
stocked acoustic room. Tried various, including a very rare Taylor Gerry
Beckley signature model 614 GB which I thought sounded and played fantastic,
only 38 were ever produced in 1997! But, it was way too expensive at £1750.
So, I ended up after sitting in the shop all afternoon, buying a Yamaha
electro acoustic at around £650. Can't remember the model, but it had piezo
under saddle PU and a built inside stalk microphone thingy. Took it home.
and tried to like it for 1 week, but it just sounded thin and felt all
wrong. So went back tried the Taylor again, took a very deep breath got out
my plastic and swapped the Yamaha for Taylor. I have loved it every minute
since!

The Taylors come fitted as standard with Elixir polyweb strings which give
quite a warm mellow tone, which I like. However, before you give up on your
Taylor why not try some different strings. I once tried some Daddario EXP16s
12 on mine and was astonished how different the tone was. These gave a much
brighter and more open tone than the polywebs. If you like a brighter
thinner sound (which in my opinion the Yamahas seem to give generally) just
try a set of these strings on it before you ditch it. The difference on mine
was amazing, it felt and sounded like an entirely different guitar, so they
might transform yours into the sound you are after.

Hope this helps

Peter

Andy B

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May 17, 2003, 8:40:37 AM5/17/03

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"Dan" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message
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I think the FG411 actually used to sell for around £400 so it's not that
cheapo a guitar. I've got a FG411C which was quite cheap when I bought it
as it was a discontinued line but I think they were going for about £450
when they were the current range. You'd still expect it to be outclassed by
a guitar costing over a grand though.

Andy

Lord Mountfield

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May 19, 2003, 3:52:30 PM5/19/03

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do you have the taylor for sale ? if how much?

"Dan" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message
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Tim Osbaldeston

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May 19, 2003, 9:17:55 PM5/19/03

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Mate,

Check recent entries to the list along the lines of "well pleased with cheap
guitar and amp." (or something like that). Also see my rantings about
Gretsches.

Or, better still, go out and enjoy yourself.

Timo.

"Lord Mountfield" <da...@mum4d.fsworld.co.uk> wrote in message
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Abdul Tom

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May 20, 2003, 4:06:19 AM5/20/03

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A lot of people in this NG and generally are biassed towards Made in
America / Britain / Canada guitars, but I really don't see why they
should be any better than Made in Japan guitars. Japan also has some
excellent boutique builders (Kiso, K. Yairi).

I think Yamahas are brilliant guitars and have long offered excellent
value for money. Being by far the largest instrument builder in the
world means they make huge numbers of guitars, pianos etc. but they
really do seem to take efforts to ensure a consistent quality across
the range. This not true of everyone (e.g. Gibson).

If you want a swanky guitar you could always go for a more expensive
Yamaha guitar. Otherwise a $400 guitar does most of us (my main guitar
was somewhat less than that).

Rick Booth

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May 20, 2003, 4:26:21 AM5/20/03

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Abdul Tom <ab...@thelarkincompany.co.uk> wrote:
> A lot of people in this NG and generally are biassed towards Made in
> America / Britain / Canada guitars, but I really don't see why they
> should be any better than Made in Japan guitars. Japan also has some
> excellent boutique builders (Kiso, K. Yairi).

No, no, no, we're all biased towards Ibanez! Come on, man, you'll be
trying to tell us we aren't cliquey next.

- rfb
--
ri...@rfbooth.com http://www.rfbooth.com/ 100% recycled electrons.
Not that I'm saying I'd like a face job with Dweezil... although,
having seen him on Channel 4 news, my girlfriend wouldn't say no...
-- Adrian Clark on telephone interviews, in ukmg

Abdul Tom

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May 20, 2003, 9:17:53 AM5/20/03

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Rick Booth <richar...@umist.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<bacord$rmf1v$1...@ID-147234.news.dfncis.de>...

> Abdul Tom <ab...@thelarkincompany.co.uk> wrote:
> > A lot of people in this NG and generally are biassed towards Made in
> > America / Britain / Canada guitars, but I really don't see why they
> > should be any better than Made in Japan guitars. Japan also has some
> > excellent boutique builders (Kiso, K. Yairi).
>
> No, no, no, we're all biased towards Ibanez! Come on, man, you'll be
> trying to tell us we aren't cliquey next.
>
> - rfb

Yes, sorry, for some reason I thought this was a
Rec.music.makers.gyuitar.acoustic posting.

Niall Tracey

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May 21, 2003, 12:55:46 PM5/21/03

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"Abdul Tom" <ab...@thelarkincompany.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fec26e29.03052...@posting.google.com...

> A lot of people in this NG and generally are biassed towards Made in
> America / Britain / Canada guitars, but I really don't see why they
> should be any better than Made in Japan guitars.

For one simple reason: most of the US/UK/Ca guitars involve human work at
some stage of development.

Japanese ones, on the other hand are precision made with cutting-edge robots
and laser beams.

So clearly the other ones are better...... erm..... yes.

Titch.
(Who took back a Spanish flamenco guitar for being poorly built and is now
considering a very nice little Yamaha.)

Rick Booth

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May 21, 2003, 3:27:12 PM5/21/03

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Niall Tracey <tra...@logica.com> wrote:
> For one simple reason: most of the US/UK/Ca guitars involve human work at
> some stage of development.

> Japanese ones, on the other hand are precision made with cutting-edge robots
> and laser beams.

> So clearly the other ones are better...... erm..... yes.

One of the (many) interesting ideas in Neal Stephenson's _Diamond Age_ is
that, in a society with effectively unlimited computerised manufacturing,
a table, say, certifiably made by a skilled human craftsman with his/her
own hands would be worth much, much more than a molecule-for-molecule
identical copy made by computer (by nanocomputers, in fact, which can
uite conceivably make such copies). The latter would be effectively
free, as would anything machine-produced in a post-scarcity society
(assuming said society is economically sane, which is a condition we
probably can't get to easily from here).

This is only SF in the techy details; right now, handmade is worth a
*lot* more than factory-made, even when no better or worse. I find this
amusing, even though I'll pay more for handmade myself :).

See also under "rare", "vintage", "shiny", and "used by the famous".

- rfb
--
ri...@rfbooth.com http://www.rfbooth.com/ Danger: nuts may contain nuts.
Think about something else as you stir. Think, for example, about
little baby lambs in as non-sexual a context as you are able.
-- totl.net on the making of milkshakes.

Tim Osbaldeston

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May 21, 2003, 8:26:18 PM5/21/03

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I've never played a shit Yamaha.

"Niall Tracey" <tra...@logica.com> wrote in message
news:10535361...@ernani.logica.co.uk...

John Robinson

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Aug 18, 2003, 7:42:30 AM8/18/03

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I have an Yamaha FG - paid £140 for it and have yet to play a Martin or a
Taylor which comes close to it.

On the other hand I have played a few Yamahas which also don't come close to
it! I think with a mass produced factory guitar you can get lucky or
unlucky with the materials - and it is this which makes the difference.

The only guitars I have played which I can say are significatnly better than
my "lucky" Yamaha are by Andy Manson, an outstanding luithier based in
Devon. My partner has two as main gigging/recording guitars and they are
superb. I even get to borrow one! And I will own one someday!!

Cheers
John Robinson
http://www.JulieEllison.co.uk

"Dan" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message
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Ian

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Aug 18, 2003, 8:29:07 AM8/18/03

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Yamaha FG140's are probably the best thing you can buy for that kinda money.
I was selling a cheap but nice Aria bowlback to a friend and still advised
her to go to the local shop and look at the Yamaha ...she didn't as it
happens :-)

In my early years my dad bought me an FG180 which I'm still convinced was
one of the best instruments I've ever played - wish I still had it. Amongst
others, including a new, expensive Yamaha, I have a Kimbara dreadnought
which I bought second hand for £90 and has an action far better than my
strats and teles, not a buzz anywhere no matter how hard you play it and a
tone that'll live with any Martin or Taylor .....

Like they say, if it feels good, play it - don't read the label.....

"John Robinson" <Jo...@JohnRobinsonAndAssociates.com> wrote in message
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Dave G

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Aug 18, 2003, 8:34:38 AM8/18/03

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Funny you should mention that, cos I have spotted this too.
A friend and meself went to the opening of a guitar shop in
Kings Lynn not too long ago where there were rows of new
Taylors, Larivee, Takamine etc etc and a few old Martins as
well. I'm a big fan of Leo Kottke, who uses Taylors so I was
well up for having a play on some of the higher end Taylors.
Quick bit of background info - my current guitar was
handbuilt by my old woodwork teacher and sings like a bird.
So, the upshot was that I played every Taylor in the house
and wouldn't have given you £400 for one let alone the £1400
asking price. Dull, flat and lifeless.

There was a 1972 Martin Dread that sounded amazing, couldn't
belive the tone, warmth, volume etc etc.

So the conclusion that I have drawn is this:

Acoustic guitars are no longer made as pure 'acoustic'
instruments. They are made to be played amplified which has
got to affect the way in which they are constructed and
their sound when played unplugged, I rest my case. If you
want a real acoustic instrument and are looking in the high
end range, forget it, go get one made...

</rantmode off>

"John Robinson" <Jo...@JohnRobinsonAndAssociates.com> wrote
in message news:bhqe2u$1o2$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...

: I have an Yamaha FG - paid £140 for it and have yet to

: >
: >
:
:

J A Sims

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Aug 18, 2003, 10:12:46 AM8/18/03

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Now you are talking, "Larrivee", absolutely fantastic, they
had three arrive one morning at the shop in Westbury, I
played all three of them, all great but one was special and
of course a bit later on in the day someone bought it.
Some months later I saw it up on trade-it for 450 quid :-))

Julian Le Second

ps anyone got a private jet flying to Canada and then setting
back down near Bradford on Avon ;-))

--
Junior Mctavish Allstars
~~~

2pods

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Aug 18, 2003, 4:34:36 PM8/18/03

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Lowden.
Get 'em while you can

"J A Sims" <hss...@bath.ac.uk> wrote in message
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Magnus Paterson

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Aug 18, 2003, 5:25:43 PM8/18/03

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"2pods" <notpete...@certainlynovirgin.net> wrote in message
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> Lowden.
> Get 'em while you can

Yeah, grand if you can get George to make you one with a decent
neck profile. Apart from that, I'm not a huge fan.

Back up the thread, someone was enthusing about Yamaha. Fantastic
necks on some, very playable. Not the best amplified sound with
the onboard electrics if you're a purist, but damn fine guitars
for the money.

For me, the Rob Armstrong with EMG electrics beats anything
I've played. Two Olsons have been better acoustically (but I
can't afford $8k) and I played a nice Goodall with, I think,
a Fishman setup and that sang thru' the PA, but overall I'm
content with what I have.

Incidentally, it was regular contributor David Kilpatrick who
put me on to the Armstrong, and he also just sold me a superb
tenor mandola. DK has, I think, 2 Lowdens; one steel, one
nylon, and he's also posted comments on some groups (UKMG?
RMMGA?) about Lowdens, George Lowdens, and the current
factory derivatives of the Lowden range. DAVID!! YOU OUT
THERE??

Cheers,
Magnus

John Robinson

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Aug 18, 2003, 5:47:16 PM8/18/03

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Played a few Lowdens. None really "spoke to me" and none struck me as being
especialy playable but for one, which was sold by the time I went back for a
re-try.

The shop owner told me that this was his last stock and the original "Mr
Lowden" was withdrawing his name from the factory guitars which carry the
name. Is this due to quality problems? Is the original Mr Lowden (who I
assume is the George referred to in the previous postings) going to build
them himself in future?

John Robinson
http://www.JulieEllison.co.uk

"Magnus Paterson" <mp011...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
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John Robinson

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Aug 28, 2003, 10:32:52 AM8/28/03

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"Dave G" <renh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bhqh4u$qd5$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...

> So, the upshot was that I played every Taylor in the house
> and wouldn't have given you £400 for one let alone the £1400
> asking price. Dull, flat and lifeless.

One thing which just occurs to me to mention, remember that a new guitar
will always sound dull, flat and lifeless compared to how it will sound in
5, 10 or 20 years time. I have noticed that, when doing the sound for Julie
Ellison gigs, Julie's latest "Manson" is really opening up quite quickly now
(it is three years old) to the extent that I am rebalancing the PA to
compensate!

Best regards
John Robinson
http://www.JulieEllison.co.uk

Jonathan J Quick

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Aug 28, 2003, 10:45:26 AM8/28/03

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"Dave G" <renh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bhqh4u$qd5$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
>
> So, the upshot was that I played every Taylor in the house
> and wouldn't have given you £400 for one let alone the £1400
> asking price. Dull, flat and lifeless.

Interesting, as absolutely everyone who has played my Taylor 412CE has loved
the sound and the feel of it. It's probably the warmest and fullest-sounding
acoustic I've yet played, and was like it from the day I bought it (after
I'd chucked those horrible Elixir strings in the bin and fitted a decent set
of phosphor-bronze D'Addarios that is).

JJ

Don Gaston Ojeda

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Jul 31, 2023, 9:21:34 PM7/31/23

to

El jueves, 15 de mayo de 2003 a las 10:15:44 UTC-3, Dan escribió:
> Hi all, first post here...
> I still have my first guitar from about 5 years ago, an acoustic Yamaha
> FG-411 solid top. However, recently I picked up a Taylor 410 from eBay.
> After having had it for about 6 months I realise I much prefer the Yamaha in
> terms of pretty much everything apart from looks. I like the sound and feel
> of the Yamaha a whole lot more, the Taylor sounds dull and empty in
> comparison. Have I gone insane? It seems strange that a ~£150 cheapo Yamaha
> could appeal so much more than a ~£1200 or whatever Taylor! Anyone else had
> similar situations I'd be interested to hear about them!
> Cheers,
> Dan

I have a Yamaha FG 411 CE MAB... Before I bought it i ask fot the ID Number and I learned and Checked a pair of cool things....
This model was made to have competition against the Martins (Its the same shape)...
In the 80s Japanese acoustic Yamahas were high quality guitars.
Until 1996 them built them guitars in Japan... But in 1997 Yamaha started to Built in Indonesia... the first year of production Yamaha Use the same components them were using in Japan. Thats Why This Guitars Has A very High Sound Quality. In Uruguay where i came from It was about 1000 usd this model. I Cant complain PLugged or Unplugged sound really nice.

Tony Mike

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Aug 20, 2023, 10:05:24 PM8/20/23

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Reney Southard

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Oct 3, 2023, 8:59:30 AM10/3/23

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Candle Wasters

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Feb 14, 2024, 6:13:13 AM2/14/24

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I disagree with your valuations. I paid £300 for my Yamaha FG411C BLK in or around 1992, so based on inflation alone it'd cost you £650-plus today. Due to some issues with its electronics over the years, I've tried to replace it, but nothing comes close without paying out Martin-sized cash. I'm relieved that the electronics issues have finally been resolved and I'll be using it, and loving its tone/playability/feel, until one of us expires!

William “William mark miller” Miller

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Feb 16, 2024, 11:08:48 AM2/16/24

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Taylor vs. Cheap Yamaha - am I crazy?

Dan

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Abdul Tom

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Candle Wasters

William “William mark miller” Miller