An Phis Fhliuch
Mark Pugh
known as "The Choice Wife"?
If you do, I'd be eternally grateful if you could tell me what
chords/bass runs you play.
Key doesn't really matter but DM or any of its relatives would be
favourite.
Come to think of it, the tuning doesn't matter either, any tuning, any
key will do.
Hmm. I'd still prefer DADGAD though.
Cheers.
--
Bye,
Mark
gaho...@telinco.co.uk
>Hello Mark,
I used to play this tune in DADGAD -melody and accompaniment
together.Because it's originally a uilleann pipe tune you don't want
much in the way of chord changes,in my opinion.It's usually played in
the key of D anyway,so a D drone on the sixth string throughout sounds
o.k.,then I would add a few C and perhaps Am three-note chords above
that drone - and there you have it!.By the way "An Phis Fliuch"
doesn't translate literally as "the Choice Wife",that's the polite
version.
Gordon Tyrrall
>Bye,
>
>Mark
Johnny Adams
So don't keep us in suspense???
Johnny Adams - j.a...@media-perf.salford.ac.uk
Academic Home Page on http://www.salford.ac.uk/media/staff/jma.htm
Folk Pages on http://www.salford.ac.uk/media/staff/jmahome/r3step.htm
Research on http://www.salford.ac.uk/media/research/vmpaims.htm
Sailing pages on http://www.salford.ac.uk/media/staff/jmahome/dca_home.htm
Colm Mac Cárthaigh
Limerick"
Brad Hurley
(Johnny Adams) wrote:
>So don't keep us in suspense??? [About the "non-polite" translation of An
Phis Fhliuch]
The non-polite (and more accurate) translation is "the wet pussy," and
we're not referring to cats here. So you see why most people refer to it
as "O'Farrel's Welcome to Limerick.
--
Brad Hurley
"I believe a leaf of grass is no less than the journey-work of the stars...
And a mouse is miracle enough to stagger sextillions of infidels."
--Walt Whitman
gaho...@telinco.co.uk
there,but I think you should get the message.I once knew a fluent
Irish speaker who hadn't come across this phrase before - well,she
knew that fliuch was "wet",so she asked her scholarly father if he
knew - and judging by the way he hit the roof,the answer was probably
yes.
Gordon Tyrrall
>So don't keep us in suspense???
>
>
>
>
>
>
Janet M. Ryan
And my, my but aren't you all the clever lads? Far be it from me to
stand between sophmoric males and their time honored, dearly beloved,
misogynist traditions, but...
"An Phis Fhliuch" does not translate literally as either wet cunt or
wet pussy. Next time, before you make fools of yourselves publicly
declaring you know the "literal translation" of something in a
language you clearly don't understand, you might want to find your way
to an Irish/English dictionary.
As one previous poster with a lot more class than the lot of you
pointed out, most adult musicians more commonly use the title
"O'Farrell's Welcome to Limerick" for this tune. If the poster who
first requested information about the tune was knowledgeable enough to
know the misogynist tune title in both Irish and English, I would
expect he would be knowledgeable enough to know the more commonly used
tune title, and would have had both the good taste and sense to have
used that title to begin with if making a serious inquiry about
tunings.
Which leads me to believe Mr. Pugh was less interested in DADGAD
tuning than he was in getting attention for being bold enough to talk
dirty (at a 14 year old's level, that is) in a foreign language.
YAWN. We've seen it all before fellas. And weren't particularly
impressed by it the last 1,000 or so times either...
Janet Ryan
shrimer
happens!!
Oh, wait, I think this is MY stop coming up over here!! Think I'll get
off now!
Thanks for the lift!
FS
Andy Copeman wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> This is one of the all-time greats of Irish music. It sounds so old and
> yet so subtle in the way it explores rhythm and melody.
>
> But how do you pronounce the gaelic name?
>
> I first heard it pronounced "an Pish Fluck" ... which is amusing, but
> certainly incorrect.
>
> Waiting patiently for an answer ...
>
> cheers
>
> Andy Copeman
Dom Cronin
wrote:
>Holy mutha 'a gawd, look at that list of newsgroups.
>
>And my, my but aren't you all the clever lads? Far be it from me to
>stand between sophmoric males and their time honored, dearly beloved,
>misogynist traditions, but...
>
>"An Phis Fhliuch" does not translate literally as either wet cunt or
>wet pussy. Next time, before you make fools of yourselves publicly
>declaring you know the "literal translation" of something in a
>language you clearly don't understand, you might want to find your way
>to an Irish/English dictionary.
>
>As one previous poster with a lot more class than the lot of you
>pointed out, most adult musicians more commonly use the title
>"O'Farrell's Welcome to Limerick" for this tune. If the poster who
>first requested information about the tune was knowledgeable enough to
>know the misogynist tune title in both Irish and English, I would
>expect he would be knowledgeable enough to know the more commonly used
>tune title, and would have had both the good taste and sense to have
>used that title to begin with if making a serious inquiry about
>tunings.
>
>Which leads me to believe Mr. Pugh was less interested in DADGAD
>tuning than he was in getting attention for being bold enough to talk
>dirty (at a 14 year old's level, that is) in a foreign language.
>YAWN. We've seen it all before fellas. And weren't particularly
>impressed by it the last 1,000 or so times either...
>
>Janet Ryan
>
So Janet - are you saying that it *doesn't* translate to 'the wet
cunt'? Presumably you are, as you state that the title is mysogynist,
which 'the wet cunt' *isn't*! Perhaps you would be good enough to give
us the benefit of your great learning by giving us an accurate
translation.
OTOH - perhaps you are just exercising your PC tendencies again, and
your pretentions to academic status don't include the ability to
resist the urge to bowdlerise.
The original post was a genuine enquiry about the tune and how to play
it in a specific tuning. The discussion digressed from there - that is
Usenet - that's how it works - that's what we come here for - deal
with that or don't come here!!!
[posting from uk.music.folk, fu set]
--
Dom Cronin
London - UK
Adrian Legg
> Holy mutha 'a gawd, look at that list of newsgroups.
>
> And my, my but aren't you all the clever lads?
If we substituted "girls" for "lads" - would that be sexist ?
Also, perhaps you haven't seen the whole thread.It's not all
cross-posted.
> If the poster who
> first requested information about the tune was knowledgeable enough to
> know the misogynist
How is it misogynist ? The earthier versions seemed celebratory to me -
especially in connection with that tune, though I'd not heard them
before. Perhaps you mean "improper" or something along those lines ?
>tune title in both Irish and English, I would
> expect he would be knowledgeable enough to know the more commonly used
> tune title,
Why would you expect that? We don't all get everything explained to us
- some of us make the best of patchy information from inadequate record
sleeves, song books etc.. It's entirely reasonable to use whatever we've
already heard in an enthusiastic search for info., and the original
poster used a translation "The Choice Wife" - hardly as ripe as later
offerings. And btw, you are the first person to use the word "adult" in
the thread - are you reading what you'd like to see instead of what's
there ?
> Which leads me to believe Mr. Pugh was less interested in DADGAD
> tuning
++snip of more misanthropy++
For someone getting tetchy about cross-posts, you've cross-posted a
goodish chunk of quoted text.
But I guess we know to stay out of the folky n.g.s now
;-)
>
The address is spurious - spam clogs the mailbox when I'm away.
Contact info: http://www.roe.ac.uk/mjpwww/legghead.htm
Test pic.site http://www.andersmc.u-net.com/Proto/proto.html
test tab. www.andersmc.u-net
Royce Lerwick
>dirty (at a 14 year old's level, that is) in a foreign language.
>YAWN. We've seen it all before fellas. And weren't particularly
>impressed by it the last 1,000 or so times either...
>
>Janet Ryan
Go burn a bra Janet. You're in the wrong cultural heritage group if
you want to spend that much outrage on a simple dirty title.
Royce
Andy Copeman
Royce Lerwick
Legg) wrote:
>How is it misogynist ? The earthier versions seemed celebratory to me -
>especially in connection with that tune, though I'd not heard them
>before. Perhaps you mean "improper" or something along those lines ?
Because in Janet's world view, and male enjoying the use of a wet cunt
is a rapist, and any woman who's wet cunt is used by a male is a
victime, and any woman who enjoys having her wet cunt used by a male
is a traitor, and only other women have the license to speak of or
enjoy a wet cunt with other women.
Royce
Jon Plews
Mark Pugh requested DADGAD chords to said tune noting that it's
also called "The Choice Wife".
Gordon Tyrrall replied with some useful info about playing the
tune. He also mentioned this ...
``By the way "An Phis Fliuch" doesn't translate literally
as "the Choice Wife", that's the polite version.''
Johnny Adams then asked ...
``So don't keep us in suspense???''
To which Gordon Tyrrall replied ...
``It translates literally as "The Wet C**t" - ooer,I came
over all coy there,but I think you should get the message.
I once knew a fluent Irish speaker who hadn't come across
this phrase before - well,she knew that fliuch was "wet",
so she asked her scholarly father if he knew - and judging
by the way he hit the roof,the answer was probably yes.''
Then Janet M. Ryan wrote in message <76ualr$sku$1...@news1.tc.umn.edu>...
>
>Holy mutha 'a gawd, look at that list of newsgroups.
>
Cut them then!
>And my, my but aren't you all the clever lads? Far be it from me to
>stand between sophmoric males and their time honored, dearly beloved,
>misogynist traditions, but...
>
... one of my buttons has been pushed so I will ...
>"An Phis Fhliuch" does not translate literally as either wet cunt or
>wet pussy. Next time, before you make fools of yourselves publicly
>declaring you know the "literal translation" of something in a
>language you clearly don't understand, you might want to find your way
>to an Irish/English dictionary.
>
So why keep us in suspense? Why did you not just enlighten
the readership of these groups?
I received a letter many years ago written in Irish. I didn't
(and still don't) speak/read the language so I took it to a
library to translate it. Fat lot of good that did; I gave up
after translating the first sentence as something like "The
teapot is in the sink but the weather is fine in Dungannon".
Wrong dictionary I suppose ...
The previous posters have not made fools of themselves. At
worst one has been mis-informed about the meaning of a word.
You, on the other hand, don't look particularly sensible
from where I'm sitting.
>As one previous poster with a lot more class than the lot of you
>pointed out, most adult musicians more commonly use the title
>"O'Farrell's Welcome to Limerick" for this tune. If the poster who
>first requested information about the tune was knowledgeable enough to
>know the misogynist tune title in both Irish and English, I would
>expect he would be knowledgeable enough to know the more commonly used
>tune title, and would have had both the good taste and sense to have
>used that title to begin with if making a serious inquiry about
>tunings.
>
>Which leads me to believe Mr. Pugh was less interested in DADGAD
>tuning than he was in getting attention for being bold enough to talk
>dirty (at a 14 year old's level, that is) in a foreign language.
>YAWN. We've seen it all before fellas. And weren't particularly
>impressed by it the last 1,000 or so times either...
>
You've called Gordon Tyrrall a liar.
You've called Mark Pugh an immature liar.
You've think everyone in this thread lacks class.
You are a troll AICMFP.
*PLONK*
Jon Plews.
chrisrockcliffe
have come from Ms Janet Ryan in her deliberate flame. As she has
come bounding into 4 newsgroups with a wholly patronising and sexist
diatribe, perhaps she'd like to answer the questions so ably put
already by Dom and Adrian.
If she indeed has superior knowledge of the Irish language then she
might have the courtesy of giving us all the benefit of it. If the
composer of this tune wished to call it An Phis Fhliuch - meaning
'the wet pussy', 'the wet cunt', 'the wet vagina' or 'the wet
whatever it is in Irish' - then perhaps that is what gave him/her
the inspiration to compose it in the first place. It's reasonable
to suppose that a 'dry cunt' would not have done the same.
No doubt any fiddler or piper etc introducing this tune to a public
audience, would use one of the more acceptable alternative titles.
The Middle English word 'cunt' derived from the germanic 'kunte' and
the nordic 'kunta' has been around for a many many hundreds of
years. The word 'cunt' - unlike the word 'fuck' - is still totally
unacceptable in all broadcast media. Most women hate it and
personally I find it the least attractive term to describe the
female genitalia. It is however part of our language - like it or
not.
It is 'sexist' not as a word (noun), but sometimes in the way it is
used. In 'cockney' parlance, it is in very common use as a term of
abuse - almost exclusively male to male - meaning a man who
metaphorically 'fucks himself' by doing something nasty, stupid or
socially unnacceptable - and as such is pronounced 'cant'.
I hope however that by embroilling myself in a discussion with the
infamous Ms Ryan - I havn't made a '****' of myself. :-)
Gan canny,
Chris Rockcliffe
Nigel Gatherer
recordings and the book "The Dance Music of Willie Clancy". I recently
heard a version of it played in a session in Edinburgh. I couldn't quite
remember its name, so I asked. The reply was "The Pink Mound". Considering
the postings about the title I've read here (rec.music.celtic), it seems
to make a little sense.
--
Nigel Gatherer, Edinburgh
gath...@argonet.co.uk
Paul Draper
chrisrockcliffe wrote in message
<915619591.6667.0...@news.demon.co.uk>...
.
>
>It is 'sexist' not as a word (noun), but sometimes in the way it is
>used. In 'cockney' parlance, it is in very common use as a term of
>abuse - almost exclusively male to male - meaning a man who
>metaphorically 'fucks himself' by doing something nasty, stupid or
>socially unnacceptable - and as such is pronounced 'cant'.
>
>
Please be careful about the way you use the word 'cockney'. It denotes a
region of origin and not a social level and certainly not a mindset. That
said, I have often heard the 'C- word' used just as you have said but you
have the pronunciation wrong.
--
Paul Draper
0171 369 2754
Jon Plews
[ newgroups and follow-ups set ][ snipped ]
>
>... [the 'c' word] - unlike the word 'fuck' - is still totally
>unacceptable in all broadcast media. Most women hate it and
>personally I find it the least attractive term to describe the
>female genitalia. It is however part of our language - like it or
>not.
>
Couple of months back on BBC2 an episode of Larry Saunders(sp?)
was introduced with a comments along the lines of "contains the
strongest possible language". They eff and blind in nearly every
episode I've seen, so this extra strong comment flagged up the
'c' word.
Very funny it was when it came along too :-)
That being said; it is a *very* nasty word and I only use
it in front of people I know quite well.
Jon Plews.
christopher john smith
Nigel Gatherer <gath...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>I have always known this tune as "An Phis Fhliuch" - from Willie Clancy
>recordings and the book "The Dance Music of Willie Clancy". I recently
>heard a version of it played in a session in Edinburgh. I couldn't quite
>remember its name, so I asked. The reply was "The Pink Mound". Considering
>the postings about the title I've read here (rec.music.celtic), it seems
>to make a little sense.
The story I have been told by people who knew Seamus Ennis was that the
tune was always and traditionally known as "O'Farrell's Welcome to Limerick,"
but that Ennis, having it on with a gullible young folklorst, gave the
Gaelic "An Phis Fhliuch" as a made-up title. No doubt Seamus foresaw all
the various personal, political, or etymological discussions which his
spontaneous retitling would precipitate.
cjs
>
>
>--
>Nigel Gatherer, Edinburgh
>gath...@argonet.co.uk
>
--
Chris Smith - Lecturer in World Music at IU; Producer: "One World" at WFIU;
Musician: Altramar medieval music ensemble, Amandla (African jazz), Las
(Irish/Scots traditions); Author: "Celtic Backup"; (p) 812/855-2664
(WWW) http://www.indiana.edu/~smithcj "Do your best" -- Shakyamuni
chrisrockcliffe
<76vkf1$m...@news5-gui.server.cableol.net>...
denotes a region of origin and not a social level and certainly not
a mindset. That said, I have often heard the 'C- word' used just as
you have said but you have the pronunciation wrong.
------------------------------
'Nice' people don't use this word...
...on the other hand, working as a wheel clamper traffic warden,
you'll hear it all day long from a lot of very nice people...
...What I did notice immediately when I came down to London 28 years
ago, was how much more freely - even jokingly - it's used down here
than say in my native north east. In Newcastle the 'C' word is
pronounced very differently with a flattened 'u' vowel as in 'un'.
The Irish pronunciation is similar. The northern version sounds
'harder' and even worse. But...what pronunciation is wrong? In
South London (no disrespect intended to 'cockneys' incidentally) it
sounds to me like 'cant' - or if higher up the social scale - almost
like 'can't'. And during the old spy scandal some years ago there
was a ryhming slang version - 'Sir Anthony Blunt'.
This is getting silly....Imagine you're a feminist Irish speaking
lady and you open up your favourite folk/guitar newsgroup and see
the Irish words 'An Phis Fliuch'... 'The Wet Cunt' as a headline. So
you open up the thread and there are 50 'Wet ****'s staring at
you...you're going to get upset... and then you see it's been posted
to 4 newsgroups....'Wet ****'s everywhere! ..."Holy mutha o' gawd"
you might well say...:-)
Anyway let's get back to folk music and/or acoustic guitars...
Chris Rockcliffe
Dang...@my-dejanews.com
In article <3692D1D2...@cowan.edu.au>,
--
Castle Dangerous Piping
http://members.xoom.com/Dangerous/
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
chrisrockcliffe
>That being said; it is a *very* nasty word and I only use
>it in front of people I know quite well.
>
>Jon Plews.
Hmmm...
...And for people you hardly know at all....what do you use??? :-)
Chris Rockcliffe
Janet M. Ryan
>perhaps she'd like to answer the questions so ably put
>already by Dom and Adrian.
>If she indeed has superior knowledge of the Irish language then she
>might have the courtesy of giving us all the benefit of it.
Its something the lot of you couldn't find, enlightened or in the
dark.
XXXOOO
Janet Ryan
Colm Mac Cárthaigh
conservative fluent Irish speakers):
On Fish fl-uch (fl-uch is like a mixture of "fl" and the "ugh" of lough)
Anahata
>
>The story I have been told by people who knew Seamus Ennis was that the
>tune was always and traditionally known as "O'Farrell's Welcome to Limerick,"
>but that Ennis, having it on with a gullible young folklorst, gave the
>Gaelic "An Phis Fhliuch" as a made-up title. No doubt Seamus foresaw all
>the various personal, political, or etymological discussions which his
>spontaneous retitling would precipitate.
Love it! I really want to believe that version of the story.
Maybe his remark was a cockney-style derogatory aside about some
acquaintance of his by the name of O'Farrell. Clearly Mr. O'Farrell,
besides having done something to offend the great piper, was also at
odds with the Tory party line...
Anahata
ana...@freereed.demon.co.uk + http://www.freereed.demon.co.uk/
ana...@locust.co.uk email to mobile phone 8 line messages max
0171 638 5577 (W) 0171 229 6076 (H) 0976 263827 (mobile)
bogus address
Followups set to uk.music.folk.
> And my, my but aren't you all the clever lads? Far be it from me to
> stand between sophmoric males and their time honored, dearly beloved,
> misogynist traditions, but... "An Phis Fhliuch" does not translate
> literally as either wet cunt or wet pussy.
What does it translate as, then?
> Next time, before you make fools of yourselves publicly declaring you
> know the "literal translation" of something in a language you clearly
> don't understand, you might want to find your way to an Irish/English
> dictionary.
> If the poster who first requested information about the tune was
> knowledgeable enough to know the misogynist tune title
What's misogynist about it? Presumably the Irish title goes along with
a song text; do you know it? If not, you're simply speculating. The
mere use of the word "cunt" ipso facto says nothing about the speaker's
attitude to women's position in society (in English, anyway - dunno what
the connotations of the Irish word are).
> in both Irish and English, I would expect he would be knowledgeable
> enough to know the more commonly used tune title, and would have had
> both the good taste and sense to have used that title to begin with
> if making a serious inquiry about tunings.
Could somebody post the ABC for this thing? It isn't in O'Neill or
Breathnach, I don't have the Willie Clancy book, and Henrick Norbeck's
website isn't playing ball. It would be interesting to know if it has
any Scottish cognates and if so what they're called.
In exchange, here's the ABC for a Scottish reel from the 1730s which,
as far as I know, has no alternative title and has never been published
before. It was probably intended for some sort of Lowland smallpipe,
but the style of the other tunes in Skene's MS is rather Highland-
influenced; Skene was from Aberdeenshire and we don't know much about
the piping styles there in his time. There are more tunes like this on
my website, albeit much more difficult. "=" probably means a trill.
X:1
T:The Black Part of the C--t
S:George Skene, NLS Adv. 5.2.21
M:C|
L:1/8
K:AMix
c>BAe eB/B/ Be|c>BAe fd/d/ df |\
eA/A/ Ae eB/B/ Be|eefd "="e2 d2:|
c/A/A c/A/A B>BBe |c/A/A c/A/A f>edf |\
c/A/A c/A/A B>BBe |de/e/ f>d "="e2 d2:|
If sufficiently provoked I could probably find the tune "Black Mary's
Hole" with a bit of searching though notebooks, though that one does
have an alternative title.
---> email to "jc" at this site: email to "jack" or "bogus" will bounce <---
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
Janet M. Ryan
acceptable to use the dirty little ditty in any company, of course.
The use of such epithets really only offends feminazis like myself, as
no other women are offended by being referred to, directly or
indirectly, as a wet cunt (which of course isn't sexist) or a wet
pussy. Nor are any Real Men offended by its use in their presence,
whether referring to women they don't know, or to their wives or
girlfriends, mammy or grannies, etc... So it would be silly not to use
"An Phis Fliuch" with gay abandon. And I do hope one of you will
bring it to Howard Stern's attention at your earliest convenience.
I'm sure you all will impress everyone down at the local with your
intimate knowledge of the Irish language. Goodness knows its Very
Important that this tune title remain in circulation--in fact, I
suggest we stop using the more commonly used & traditional
"O'Farrell's Welcome to Limerick" altogether, in the interest of
keeping things authentic and not bowdlerising the sacred traditions of
our menfolk.
Thanks especially to all you fellows who did such a fine job of
showing me what an offensive human being I am for being the only woman
to object to this kind of entertainment for the good men among you in
these public forums. Your sniggering about how cleverly the Irish
title labels female genitalia showed great courtesy and respect for
the women and men who read these newsgroups. And as usual, I see the
ladies are standing right along beside you on this one.
Janet Ryan
Dom Cronin
wrote:
>"chrisrockcliffe" <chrisro...@scripto99.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Do I take it from this that the translation previously offered *was*
correct, and that you were just trying to look clever by claiming to
know a more accurate translation?
So come on smartypants.edu give us the benefit of your insight if you
can, or apologise to the people you accused of innaccuracy if you
can't. Put up or shut up!
Oh and I'm still waiting for you to justify your charge of misogyny.
Personally I am very fond of what have been described as 'wet cunts' -
I can't see how this would lead to a charge of hating women. Surely
it's a case of "love me - love my sex organs".
Due respect will be given to the first person to write a tune called
'The rampant cock' and submit it here in abc.
Dom Cronin
wrote:
>As the majority of you gents have pointed out here, its perfectly
>acceptable to use the dirty little ditty in any company, of course.
>The use of such epithets really only offends feminazis like myself, as
>no other women are offended by being referred to, directly or
>indirectly, as a wet cunt (which of course isn't sexist) or a wet
>pussy.
Is a feminazi someone who thinks that anyone saying 'cunt' must be
referring to her?
Other definitions are welcome.
Dang...@my-dejanews.com
In article <7703es$7vv$1...@fire.medianet.ie>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Bo Parker
bogus address <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> ryan...@tc.umn.edu (Janet M. Ryan) writes:
> > Holy mutha 'a gawd, look at that list of newsgroups.
>
> Followups set to uk.music.folk.
I added rmmga back in.
> > And my, my but aren't you all the clever lads? Far be it from me to
> > stand between sophmoric males and their time honored, dearly beloved,
> > misogynist traditions, but... "An Phis Fhliuch" does not translate
> > literally as either wet cunt or wet pussy.
>
> What does it translate as, then?
Good question. I went and consulted the Fiddler's Companion,
http://www.ceolas.org/tunes/fc/ , which says the following about this
tune:
-----BEGIN INCLUDED MATERIAL-----
PHIS FHLIUCH, AN (The Wet Pussy).| AKA and see "The Boy in the Bush,"
"The Choice Wife," "O'Farrell's Welcome
to Limerick," "The Perfect Wife," "Virgin Mary." Irish, Slip Jig. D
Mixolydian. Standard. ABBCCDDEE. "The Choice
Wife" is a polite translation of the bawdy title.
[snip]
-----END INCLUDED MATERIAL-----
And I went and found an ABC for it at the Web-Wide ABC Index, which is
an excellent source for ABC's. It has links to thousands of tunes.
http://www.gre.ac.uk/~c.walshaw/abc/index/wwabc.html
Here's the ABC:
-----BEGIN INCLUDED MATERIAL-----
X:10
T:An Phis Fhliuch
T:Wet Pussy, The
T:Choice Wife, The
T:Perfect Wife, The
T:Virgin Mary
T:O'Farrell's Welcome to Limerick
T:Boy in the Bush, The
R:slip jig
D:Willie Clancy: The Pipering of Willie Clancy 2.
D:Davy Spillane: Atlantic Bridge.
D:Planxty.
D:Noel Hill: The Irish Concertina.
D:Paul O'Shaughnessy & Paul McGrattan: Within a Mile from Dublin
Z:id:hn-slipjig-10
M:9/8
K:Dmix
FGA AFA c2A|BAG FAF GED|FGA AFA d2A|dfe dcA GED:|
|:d^cd efd =c2A|~d3 faf ~g3|aba ged c2A|BAG FAF GED:|
|:FGA AFd AFd|AFd AFA GED|FGA AFA c2A|BAG FAF GED:|
|:~D3 ~D3 c3|c2B c2A GEA|~D3 ~D3 d2A|dfe dcA GED:|
|:d^cd efd =c2A|dB/^c/d faf ~g3|aba ged c2A|BAG F/G/AF GED:|
-----END INCLUDED MATERIAL-----
I also fail to see anything misogynist about the title - it's just
crude. Nice tune, though. I don't speak Irish, and I'd love to know what
a literal translation of the title is, if not as given above.
Cheers!
-Bo Parker
There's not really an "x" in my email address.
jer...@delanet.com
"chrisrockcliffe" <chrisro...@scripto99.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> The Middle English word 'cunt' derived from the germanic 'kunte' and
> the nordic 'kunta' has been around for a many many hundreds of
> years.
Kind of makes me wonder how the American TV miniseries "Roots" went over in
other countries, when the initial lead character was named "Kunta Kinte."
How does one pronounce "An Phis Fhliuch?"
Jeri Corlew
jer...@delanet.com
dom...@MySurname.co.uk (Dom Cronin) wrote:
>
> Due respect will be given to the first person to write a tune called
> 'The rampant cock' and submit it here in abc.
You didn't say it had to be any good!
T:The Rampant Cock
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:G
||:EDE FDF|GFG ABc|BdB cAF|AFD AFD|
EDE FDF|GFG ABc|BdB cAF|AFD D3:|
BdB cAF | BdB ecA|BdB efg |fed e3|
gee fed |gee dBG |BdB cAF| AFD D3:|
Janet M. Ryan
>What's misogynist about it? Presumably the Irish title goes along with
>a song text; do you know it?
Its a slip jig known as "O'Farrell's Welcome to Limerick." I've never
seen any reference to a song text, and the "An Phis Fhliuch" title,
from what I've learned about it over the years, is a very recent
addition to the list of tune titles. Not traditional or connected to
either a satirical poem or song that I've ever heard.
>The
>mere use of the word "cunt" ipso facto says nothing about the speaker's
>attitude to women's position in society (in English, anyway - dunno what
>the connotations of the Irish word are).
You men can all argue on to your heart's content about how the word
"cunt" isn't a derogatory term for women. I don't know of any women
either side of the pond that would agree with you. And frankly, I
don't use men's definitions of misogynist--I know what feels hateful
to me and what doesn't, thank you very much.
>Could somebody post the ABC for this thing? It isn't in O'Neill or
>Breathnach, I don't have the Willie Clancy book, and Henrick Norbeck's
>website isn't playing ball. It would be interesting to know if it has
>any Scottish cognates and if so what they're called.
I believe Richard Robinson already did. Henrik, if I remember
correctly, got the list of tune titles from a flame war about this
tune title on the Irish traditional music list a number of years back.
The net seems to be giving the title the currency its getting, not
musicians--at least none that I'm aware of at any rate, for what
should be obvious reasons. Henrik's site may well be where the
original poster found it, in fact.
A number of well respected women musicians ended up leaving the Irtrad
list over it as I recall, so nasty was a few of the mens' defense of
the title. Just like we're seeing here.
Janet Ryan
sdavmor
>In article <3693a3e1....@news.ftech.net>,
> dom...@MySurname.co.uk (Dom Cronin) wrote:
>>
>> Due respect will be given to the first person to write a tune called
>> 'The rampant cock' and submit it here in abc.
>
>You didn't say it had to be any good!
>
>T:The Rampant Cock
>M:6/8
>L:1/8
>K:G
>||:EDE FDF|GFG ABc|BdB cAF|AFD AFD|
>EDE FDF|GFG ABc|BdB cAF|AFD D3:|
>BdB cAF | BdB ecA|BdB efg |fed e3|
>gee fed |gee dBG |BdB cAF| AFD D3:|
Now who'll be the first to record it <grin>
Cheers
SDM
Mark Pugh
<ryan...@tc.umn.edu> writes
>Holy mutha 'a gawd, look at that list of newsgroups.
Er, yes. They ARE all newsgroups on which I might expect someone to be
able to answer my question.
Problem?
[snip translation rantings ... since I only requested the tune and the
translations were supplied by others I'll not address that one]
>
>As one previous poster with a lot more class than the lot of you
>pointed out, most adult musicians more commonly use the title
>"O'Farrell's Welcome to Limerick" for this tune. If the poster who
>first requested information about the tune was knowledgeable enough to
>know the misogynist tune title in both Irish and English, I would
>expect he would be knowledgeable enough to know the more commonly used
>tune title, and would have had both the good taste and sense to have
>used that title to begin with if making a serious inquiry about
>tunings.
Oh dear oh dear oh dear. You sad, sad person.
I heard it performed a number of times & liked the tune.
I asked Chris Sherburn what it was called after I heard him play it.
He told me "The Choice Wife"
I asked for the music in a shop: The Music Room.
Steve Noon there, told me it was also called "Ah Phis Fhliuch".
When I decided to make my NG enquiry I thought I'd have more chance of
getting what I wanted if I used both names.
Sorry if that pisses you off but I didn't pick the names.
If I need to ask about it again, I'll quote all three names.
>
>Which leads me to believe Mr. Pugh was less interested in DADGAD
>tuning than he was in getting attention for being bold enough to talk
>dirty (at a 14 year old's level, that is) in a foreign language.
>YAWN. We've seen it all before fellas. And weren't particularly
>impressed by it the last 1,000 or so times either...
You sad, sad, sad person.
I want to play a tune I like. Full stop.
I didn't know (and to be honest, didn't give a shite about) what the
Gaelic meant. Still don't. I can nearly play the tune, though. Cheers
everyone.
Finally, Janet. I spend a large part of my working life, as a physics
teacher in an inner city school, trying to discourage all types of
prejudice. High on the agenda of any self-respecting science teacher is
the need to address the issue of girls underachieving and not getting a
good deal in science lessons. If I approached the situation in the way
you approached this one, I'd put my work back years. Your poorly
thought out rant at someone about whom you know nothing but the fact
they requested music to a tune has simply suggested to me that you're a
bit of a nutter.
Have a nice day.
--
Bye,
Mark
Mark Pugh
<bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>Could somebody post the ABC for this thing?
Bogus, it's in a set called hnsj0 which I got from the abc page.
email me if you'd like me to send you the file.
--
Bye,
Mark
Royce Lerwick
<chrisro...@scripto99.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I hope however that by embroilling myself in a discussion with the
>infamous Ms Ryan - I havn't made a '****' of myself. :-)
>
>Gan canny,
>Chris Rockcliffe
What a pussy.
Royce
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>Please be careful about the way you use the word 'cockney'. It denotes a
>region of origin and not a social level and certainly not a mindset. That
>said, I have often heard the 'C- word' used just as you have said but you
>have the pronunciation wrong.
>
>Paul Draper
What a twat.
Royce
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>Its something the lot of you couldn't find, enlightened or in the
>dark.
>
>XXXOOO
>
>Janet Ryan
Not even with both hands and a flashlight?
Royce
Is that a wet one, or a dry one?
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>As the majority of you gents have pointed out here, its perfectly
>acceptable to use the dirty little ditty in any company, of course.
>The use of such epithets really only offends feminazis like myself,
Absolutely correct.
>So it would be silly not to use
>"An Phis Fliuch" with gay abandon.
Now you're calling us all homosexuals.
>And I do hope one of you will
>bring it to Howard Stern's attention at your earliest convenience.
The Celts were a culture full of Howard Sterns you revisionist moron.
>I
>suggest we stop using the more commonly used & traditional
>"O'Farrell's Welcome to Limerick" altogether, in the interest of
>keeping things authentic and not bowdlerising the sacred traditions of
>our menfolk.
It's interesting you just assume this was some universally understood
slam on women perpetrated by men, yet you have no history on the tune
or who wrote it or what it was named after? Hmmm....
>
>Thanks especially to all you fellows who did such a fine job of
>showing me what an offensive human being I am for being the only woman
>to object to this kind of entertainment for the good men among you
And again, a wet pussy connotes only entertainment for men. A woman
with a wet pussy, though some might think must have been worked up
into some sort of state of entertainment herself, we must be trained
to understand, is merely in such a state as a form of intrinsic
denegration perpetrated by the repressive male hierarchy.
>Your sniggering about how cleverly the Irish
>title labels female genitalia
And of course, thereby gives insight into the Celtic and Irish
cultural traditions you pretend to respect, yet obviously hold only in
contempt.
>showed great courtesy and respect for
>the women and men who read these newsgroups.
Well no, it was just a bit of an aside concerning the real
interpretation of the title, which could serve as an advisory for
those not knowing of its hideously filthy nature, or just provide a
mildly amusing bit of pondering.
>And as usual, I see the
>ladies are standing right along beside you on this one.
Only to begin with. They shortly assume various other positions in
order to gain the best personal and mutual benefit of said title.
>
Royce
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>Is a feminazi someone who thinks that anyone saying 'cunt' must be
>referring to her?
No, a feminazi is someone who thinks of herself as a "cunt" in
contemptuous self-loathing, and therefore attempts to make the word go
away as if that would make her ineffectual, penis-less guilt go away
along witht he word.
Royce
Lawrence E Mallette
: Maybe his remark was a cockney-style derogatory aside about some
: acquaintance of his by the name of O'Farrell. Clearly Mr. O'Farrell,
: besides having done something to offend the great piper, was also at
: odds with the Tory party line...
Pardon me, but O'Farrell _was_ the great piper, and possibly the
composer of this tune.
Its first printing was on page 38 of "O'FARRELLS Collection of
National Irish Music for the UNION PIPES, Comprising a Variety of
the Most Favorite Slow and Sprightly TUNES, SET in proper STILE
& TASTE, with Variations and Adapted Likewise for the GERMAN
FLUTE, VIOLIN, FLAGELET, PIAPNO & HARP, with a Selection, of
Favorite Scotch Tunes, Also a Treatise with the most Perfect
Instructions ever yet Published for the PIPES."
Probably the longest title ever for an Irish tune book.
But there it is in all its six-part glory on page 38 and
39, as O Farrells welcome to Limerick.
STILE & TASTE?
Sometimes we actually find it in this newsgroup (RMC)
but maybe not recently. ;)
George Hawes
>What a twat.
What an intellegent response . . .
Or was it intended as a joke?
G.
ngs trimmed to uk.m.f - what the hell this is being broadcast
for is beyond me.
George Hawes
>Oh and I'm still waiting for you to justify your charge of misogyny.
>Personally I am very fond of what have been described as 'wet cunts' -
>I can't see how this would lead to a charge of hating women.
I well recall [#1] Martin Simpson, on a particularly jovial
evening, going through a very simmilar line of reasoning,
starting from the point "why do we use 'cunt' to refer to things
or people we particularly dislike?" and concluding "so . .
Margaret Thatcher is a toilet seat".
"Toilet seat" remains the expletive guaranteed to bring a smile
to the face in our houshold.
George
#1] Lest this is cited as further evidence of mysogeny, my wife
recalls this equally well . . And while it may be the case that
women are more sensitive to the use of the word cunt than men
are, it strikes me this is more a question of the context/way in
which the word is used. I don't recall any exodus of offended
women on this evening.
#2] He was introducing "Joshua Gone Barbados" at the time . .
George Hawes
>In article <76ualr$sku$1...@news1.tc.umn.edu>, Janet M. Ryan
><ryan...@tc.umn.edu> writes
>>Holy mutha 'a gawd, look at that list of newsgroups.
>Er, yes. They ARE all newsgroups on which I might expect someone to be
>able to answer my question.
>Problem?
No problem
Your ng list was probably reasonable for the request; less so
for much of the digressed follow-ups. Hardly a fault on your
part; more the rest of us failing to spot the list before
hitting "send".
Mind you, I wish you'd left out whatever group my good friend
Ms_Ryan picked it up on . . . ;-)
I personally believe it a good idea to indicate in the text of
the article if it is being cross-posted . . it can help avoid
spreading irritation. Of course you do follow all the ngs you
posted to, don't you?
(ngs trimmed to uk.m.f)
At least the request does (also) seem to have turned up the info
you were after.
George
George Hawes
>You men can all argue on to your heart's content about how the word
>"cunt" isn't a derogatory term for women.
Cunt is singular
Women is plural
Janet is being ridiculous . .
>I don't know of any women
>either side of the pond that would agree with you.
Which merely demonstrates your limited knowledge of women this
side of the pond . .
FYI I have encountered groups of young females (mid-teens) in
the UK amongst whom the word cunt is in disconcertingly casual
usage (well, I was disconcerted overhearing their casual usage
of it).
And I have on various occasions heard women here use it
anatomically without any difficulty.
As ever, context is far more significant than the word itself.
G.
George Hawes
>Bogus, it's in a set called hnsj0 which I got from the abc page.
Hey, he's called Jack . . He signs every article with his full
name . .
G.
Paul Draper
>On Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:23:11 -0000, "Paul Draper" <pdr...@baig.co.uk>
>wrote:
>>Please be careful about the way you use the word 'cockney'. It denotes a
>>region of origin and not a social level and certainly not a mindset. That
>>said, I have often heard the 'C- word' used just as you have said but you
>>have the pronunciation wrong.
>>
>>--
>>Paul Draper
>
>What a twat.
>
Perhaps Janet was right about someone on this NG.
Chrisrockliffe has already corresponded with me about this and explained
exactly what he meant and I can see where he is coming from even if I still
can't hear the pronounciation he cites. I am not offended by him but you
have called me a twat for no good reason other than to make another poor
genital joke.
Knock it off. Alright?
--
Paul Draper
0171 369 2754
kear...@my-dejanews.com
smi...@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (christopher john smith) wrote:
> In article <48c023cb6...@argonet.co.uk>,
> Nigel Gatherer <gath...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> >I have always known this tune as "An Phis Fhliuch" - from Willie Clancy
> >recordings and the book "The Dance Music of Willie Clancy". I recently
> >heard a version of it played in a session in Edinburgh. I couldn't quite
> >remember its name, so I asked. The reply was "The Pink Mound". Considering
> >the postings about the title I've read here (rec.music.celtic), it seems
> >to make a little sense.
>
> The story I have been told by people who knew Seamus Ennis was that the
> tune was always and traditionally known as "O'Farrell's Welcome to Limerick,"
> but that Ennis, having it on with a gullible young folklorst, gave the
> Gaelic "An Phis Fhliuch" as a made-up title. No doubt Seamus foresaw all
> the various personal, political, or etymological discussions which his
> spontaneous retitling would precipitate.
>
These titles do have the potential for larking about. I've got a Vin Garbutt
record where he announces a set of 2 tunes as "'Dunphy's Hornpipe' followed
by 'Dunphy's Mate's Hornpipe'", and I can remember seeing Dave Burland of
Hedgehog Pie annouce a 2-tune instrumental as the plausible sounding "'The
Dog Jumped over the Bucket of Potatoes', followed by 'The Turd in the
Blanket'".
Alan Kearns
Anahata
>
>Pardon me, but O'Farrell _was_ the great piper, and possibly the
>composer of this tune.
>
>Its first printing was on page 38 of "O'FARRELLS Collection of
>National Irish Music for the UNION PIPES
Well bugger I! Some useful content in the middle of all this...
Anahata
ana...@freereed.demon.co.uk + http://www.freereed.demon.co.uk/
ana...@locust.co.uk email to mobile phone 8 line messages max
0171 638 5577 (W) 0171 229 6076 (H) 0976 263827 (mobile)
Janet M. Ryan
thread has generated. For those who have expressed a sincere interest
in the language, I would draw your attention to the fact that Irish
language classes for beginners are now being offered throughout the
UK, the US & Canada, and both teachers and learners would love to see
you join in. Its great craic. Is Gaeilgeoir me freisin--I'm an Irish
learner too.
Please don't be put off by the immature, negative stuff in this
thread--learn some Irish instead! Its a beautiful, metaphorical
language, with a profound and rich literary tradition to which the
music traditions are inextricably linked. A lot of English language
singers are learning the language to be able to sing the songs--there
are a lot of good reasons to act upon even a casual impulse to learn
the language. And who knows? You could be singing "An -tOilean Ur"
(an emigration song about The New Found Island--America) as a fun way
to learn another language and some fascinating history at the same
time!
I can also suggest some books, tapes and videos for beginners which
can be used independently for those who aren't in metropolitan areas
where classes would be on offer. There is access to Irish and Scots
Gaelic (along with other Celtic languages) on-line, and more is coming
on-line everyday. You can listen to daily broadcasts on-line in Irish
from Raidio na Gaetachta. There is a lot of stuff here to help you
along. Post me privately, and I'd be happy to send you any
information I have.
There are also a number of useful, inexpensive Irish/English
dictionaries for those who have limited interest in the language, but
might find the dictionaries a handy adjunct to their interests in
Irish traditional music. Odd as it might seem to English language
monoglots, musicians and punters alike actually use the Irish language
to transmit a good amount of information about the music from
generation to generation even today. Again, post me privately, and
I'll gladly send any information I have along.
And for those of you with nothing more than a fleeting, prurient
interest in knowing "the literal translation" of dirty ditties, I
suggest you enlighten yourselves for a change and look it up.
Slan agus beannacht,
Janet Ryan
Mark Pugh
<George...@i-cubed.co.uk> writes
>Mark Pugh <straight.to....@bigrocks.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In article <76ualr$sku$1...@news1.tc.umn.edu>, Janet M. Ryan
>><ryan...@tc.umn.edu> writes
>>>Holy mutha 'a gawd, look at that list of newsgroups.
>
>
>>Er, yes. They ARE all newsgroups on which I might expect someone to be
>>able to answer my question.
>
>>Problem?
>
>No problem
>
>Your ng list was probably reasonable for the request; less so
>for much of the digressed follow-ups. Hardly a fault on your
>part; more the rest of us failing to spot the list before
>hitting "send".
>
>Mind you, I wish you'd left out whatever group my good friend
>Ms_Ryan picked it up on . . . ;-)
Yeah, sorry about that on George.
Still, it seems to have entertained a few people.
Funny how you can ask an innocent question and suddenly turn into a
lunatic magnet.
>
>I personally believe it a good idea to indicate in the text of
>the article if it is being cross-posted . . it can help avoid
>spreading irritation.
Yeah, fair do's. I've never noticed that done before but I'll do it in
future.
> Of course you do follow all the ngs you
>posted to, don't you?
Of course.
>
>(ngs trimmed to uk.m.f)
>
>At least the request does (also) seem to have turned up the info
>you were after.
Much more than I was expecting.
Thanks again everyone.
--
Bye,
Mark
Mark Pugh
>
>Hey, he's called Jack . . He signs every article with his full
>name . .
>
Note to folk-music-loving lumps of earth: Sorry if that caused offence.
--
Bye,
Mark
Janet M. Ryan
>[newsgroups trimmed to u.m.f]
>In article <772mm5$j3d$1...@news1.tc.umn.edu>,
>Janet M. Ryan <ryan...@tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>>
>> [ a stylish non-sequitur, claiming a different piece of moral high
>> ground in a style worthy of Cornad Baldey in full flood].
>>
>>And for those of you with nothing more than a fleeting, prurient
>>interest in knowing "the literal translation" of dirty ditties, I
>>suggest you enlighten yourselves for a change and look it up.
>Bear in mind that picking words literally out of a dictionary without
>understanding the language can be a way of generating some spectacular
>howlers.
>It was you who raised the issue of literal translation, and provoked the
>curiosity, by stating that a translation offered by another poster was
>incorrect.
There were several posters who claimed to have posted "literal" or
"more accurate" translations before I weighed in Richard, but perhaps
you just missed the beginning of the thread.
The literal translation was given by another poster in a followup to
my own post.
>Your apparent inability to recognise any curiosity other than
>the prurient ['fleeting' I'll grant you; though your insults are giving it
>a longevity it might not otherwise have possessed] does you no more credit
>than your failure to offer a better translation.
Just because you are displeased doesn't mean I am in any way obligated
to respond to the rude and arrogant demands being made of me by a
bunch of leering, arrogant louts.
>Come *on*, it's obvious. If you go round stating that other people are
>wrong, you've got to give a 'right' answer or you make yourself look like a
>fool digging a hole. It's nothing to do with the content of the words, it
>happens that way whatever they are.
I have given the right answer Richard. The traditional title of the
slip jig in question is "O'Farrell's Welcome to Limerick."
Janet Ryan
Mark Pugh
<ryan...@tc.umn.edu> writes
>Just because you are displeased doesn't mean I am in any way obligated
>to respond to the rude and arrogant demands being made of me by a
>bunch of leering, arrogant louts.
Or, it seems, to respond to the reasonable reply, made by the person who
innocently asked for the tunes in the first place, to your unfounded
accusations against him.
--
Bye,
Mark
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>Royce Lerwick wrote in message <369410a9...@news.mn.mediaone.net>...
>>On Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:23:11 -0000, "Paul Draper" <pdr...@baig.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>>Please be careful about the way you use the word 'cockney'. It denotes a
>>>region of origin and not a social level and certainly not a mindset. That
>>>said, I have often heard the 'C- word' used just as you have said but you
>>>have the pronunciation wrong.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Paul Draper
>>
>>What a twat.
>>
>>Royce
>
>Perhaps Janet was right about someone on this NG.
>
>Chrisrockliffe has already corresponded with me about this and explained
>exactly what he meant and I can see where he is coming from even if I still
>can't hear the pronounciation he cites. I am not offended by him but you
>have called me a twat for no good reason other than to make another poor
>genital joke.
>
>Knock it off. Alright?
Don't cry Paul.
Royce
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>Please don't be put off by the immature, negative stuff in this
>thread--learn some Irish instead!
Then you can post your immature, negative stuff in Gaelic, and make
nasty comments about everyone with an air of superiority, knowing they
can't understand you..
>Its a beautiful, metaphorical
>language, with a profound and rich literary tradition to which the
>music traditions are inextricably linked.
Marvel at the sheer number of Gaelic equivalents for "cunt."
>A lot of English language
>singers are learning the language to be able to sing the songs--there
>are a lot of good reasons to act upon even a casual impulse to learn
>the language.
So you can sing the 80% or so of them that deal with rolling in the
hay or shagging like crazed fiends in a hayrick at the harvest
festival.
>And for those of you with nothing more than a fleeting, prurient
>interest in knowing "the literal translation" of dirty ditties,
You should be able to find plenty of them to translate.
Royce
Adrian Legg
> I'm thrilled to see the surge of interest in the Irish language this
> thread has generated.
I just got the following from my sister, now living near Carlow:
:I am reliably informed by himself that the literal translation of An
:Phis
:Fhliuch (pronounced 'un iss look') (honest) is The Wet Pea. Make of it
:what
:you will!
:An = the
:Pis = pea, but gets an 'h' when preceded by 'An'
:Fhliuch + wet.
Somebody been taking the pea ?
:-)
--
The address is spurious - spam clogs the mailbox when I'm away.
Contact info: http://www.roe.ac.uk/mjpwww/legghead.htm
Test pic.site http://www.andersmc.u-net.com/Proto/proto.html
Test tab. www.andersmc-u-net.com
Paul Draper
0171 369 2754
Royce Lerwick wrote in message <3695467...@news.mn.mediaone.net>...
>>>
>>>What a twat.
>>>
>>>Royce
>>
>>Knock it off. Alright?
>
>Don't cry Paul.
>
>Royce
I suppose that's the nearest you ever get to an apology to anyone. How big
of you.
--
Paul Draper
Anahata
>
>Funny how you can ask an innocent question and suddenly turn into a
>lunatic magnet.
>>
Lawrence E Mallette
: Nice, isn't it ? Thanks, Lawrence. At risk of sparking another round,
: do you know how it came to accumulate all those other titles ?
Sorry Richard, I've not a clue, aside from the Seamus Ennis
story already posted.
R. W. Odlin
>I suppose that's the nearest you ever get to an apology to anyone. How big
>of you.
You expect him to admit he misspelled "twit" ?
Mark Pugh
<Ana...@freereed.demon.co.uk> writes
>Mark Pugh <straight.to....@bigrocks.demon.co.uk> writes
>>
>>Funny how you can ask an innocent question and suddenly turn into a
>>lunatic magnet.
>>>
>Welcome to usenet! :-)
's great innit.
--
Bye,
Mark
bogus address
dom...@MySurname.co.uk (Dom Cronin) wrote:
> Due respect will be given to the first person to write a tune called
> 'The rampant cock' and submit it here in abc.
Been done 250 years ago. That's more or less what "Lango Lee" means (cue
for Janet to say no it doesn't and she knows the correct translation but
isn't going to tell us). There is a matching set of words in either The
Gentleman's Bottle Companion or The Merry Muses of Caledonia, I forget
which.
I presume "lango" (or however it would be spelt officially in Irish these
days) is cognate with Sanskrit "lingam".
---> email to "jc" at this site: email to "jack" or "bogus" will bounce <---
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
Peter Thomas
<ryan...@tc.umn.edu> uttered in a pseudo-brogue
>Holy mutha 'a gawd, look at that list of newsgroups.
>
>And my, my but aren't you all the clever lads? Far be it from me to
>stand between sophmoric males and their time honored, dearly beloved,
>misogynist traditions, but...
snip
Yebbut...
I hadn't looked at this thread until today.
60+ posts, many over-long.
In the UK, we pay money for local calls to download news.
I estimate that the cost of downloading this lot is equivalent to at
least a pint of brown ale.
Ms Ryan (and those who reacted) - you owe me a beer.
*Must* get round to looking at kill-files
--
Peter Thomas
Mark Pugh
<Pe...@godthoms.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>I estimate that the cost of downloading this lot is equivalent to at
>least a pint of brown ale.
>
>Ms Ryan (and those who reacted) - you owe me a beer.
>
Pete, it's all my fault.
Where are you?
If you're near me I'll buy you one.
--
Bye,
Mark
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>>>Knock it off. Alright?
>>
>>Don't cry Paul.
>>
>>Royce
>
>I suppose that's the nearest you ever get to an apology to anyone. How big
>of you.
Size doesn't matter Paul. Don't you know that?
Royce
Thanks for the advertizement anyway.
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>"Paul Draper" <pdr...@baig.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>I suppose that's the nearest you ever get to an apology to anyone. How big
>>of you.
>
>You expect him to admit he misspelled "twit" ?
You no hwo i hait guz hoo spelcheck the NJ!
Royc
R. W. Odlin
> (cue for Janet to say no it doesn't and she knows the correct translation but
>isn't going to tell us)
Do we suppose "pis" is a contraction for "pitis" ? Or a metaphorical
usage like P/M John Wilson's `Wee Man in the Boat' ?
Janet M. Ryan
>dom...@MySurname.co.uk (Dom Cronin) wrote:
>> Due respect will be given to the first person to write a tune called
>> 'The rampant cock' and submit it here in abc.
>Been done 250 years ago. That's more or less what "Lango Lee" means (cue
>for Janet to say no it doesn't and she knows the correct translation but
>isn't going to tell us).
What's the matter, Jack? Upset with me because you couldn't find
anything in your library to refute Lawrence Mallette's post about the
oldest printed version of this slip jig not having any dirty dittie
connections or references? It couldn't be possible in your view of
reality that this Irish tune title might just be a very recent
invention by a misogynist jerk, attached to a tune at random? And
that the men who seem to embrace it most and work so stridently to
keep it in currency are the ones with the most difficulty with the
social graces--particularly those between men and women?
I think its important that people reading this thread know that if
they went into Francie Mooney's session in Teach Hiudai's in the
Donegal Gaeltacht (which is usually mostly male players), or the
sessions in Minneapolis at Kieran's Pub, and said "Do you know about
the tune "An Phis Fhliuch" also know as "The Wet Pussy," that they'd
not win friends or influence people in their proximity positively. It
isn't just a question of gender sensitivity, but of civility and
cultural sensitivity as well. Most male musicians in the Irish
tradition know of this tune title, and don't use it. Nor has this tune
title ever had any currency among women musicians.
Most men I know and have come across, musician, Irish, or otherwise,
just aren't that insensitive, sexist, and boorish to use the title "An
Phis Fhliuch." But this is Usenet, one of the places (along with talk
radio) where the men who *are* insensitive, sexist boors congregate
and post with a much greater frequency. The traditional title for the
tune that is most commonly used by musicians was given by a number of
men early on in this thread. So what's the problem here?
Sexism and misogyny are not traditions most people I know care to
nourish or perpetuate, irregardless of their authentic histories.
Most of us know sexism and misogyny are *not* the same thing as bawdy
sexual innuendo, subtle sexual coding, sexual playfulness and
flirting, etc. in traditional and contemporary songs both composed
and sung by men *and* women. We can make those distinctions, and
don't need to be preached to by people who have decided their
knowledge is superior to ours--as you and a few other men on
uk.music.folk have chosen to do in this instance.
The point I made in my original post was those men who were posting
were demonstrating rudeness and ignorance about the language, Irish
culture, and the context of the use of this tune title. I also said
the tune title "An Phis Fhliuch" is humiliating to women. I am under
no obligation to feed the monster that keeps perepetuating it's use,
and I don't give a shit how angry that makes the men who wish to have
their prurient interest satisfied by being given the cheap and easy
translation. If you want the answer, talk to an Irish speaking woman
and see what she tells you.
I posted originally for the benefit of people lurking in these
newsgroups who really don't want to offend others, and who would
appreciate knowing that "An Phis Fhliuch" is a tune title that is
rarely used for the slip jig in question, is considered inappropriate
in sessions, and is a rude, obnoxious, disparaging term. The very
fact that an Irish tune title is being bantered about and defended by
ignorant English speakers who don't know what the hell they are
talking about, and who have exhibited the gender and cultural
sensitivity of Attila the Hun in this thread, should have tripped
people's bullshit detectors. For some lurkers, I'm sure it did. But
in the case of the majority of *posters,* it certainly didn't.
Anyone who believes that posting this Irish tune title in a header in
rec.music.celtic was an innocent act is really clueless, but then
there is apparently no better cure for gulliblity than there is for
stupidity, if this thread is anything to judge by. And those looking
the dumbest and most gullible of all are a handful of the men (all the
usual suspects, I might add) posting from uk.music.folk.
Janet Ryan
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
etc etc etc........
>Anyone who believes that posting this Irish tune title in a header in
>rec.music.celtic was an innocent act is really clueless, but then
>there is apparently no better cure for gulliblity than there is for
>stupidity, if this thread is anything to judge by. And those looking
>the dumbest and most gullible of all are a handful of the men (all the
>usual suspects, I might add) posting from uk.music.folk.
So, are these Black Helicopters mysogynists as well then?
>
>Janet Ryan
>
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>>I think its important that people reading this thread know that if
>they went into Francie Mooney's session in Teach Hiudai's in the
>Donegal Gaeltacht (which is usually mostly male players), or the
>sessions in Minneapolis at Kieran's Pub, and said "Do you know about
>the tune "An Phis Fhliuch" also know as "The Wet Pussy," that they'd
>not win friends or influence people in their proximity positively.
That depends upon who happens to be sitting in, and what side of the
pub you're on. Likewise, if Marty, the patron saint of Irish music in
Minneapolis/St. Paul, has anything to do with it, I'm afraid you
haven't known Marty--the centerpiece if this session you're
touting--and grown up on his music an society for the last 30 years. I
can tell you tales of the old O'Gara days that would curl you hair.
Your wet hair. You know the hair of which I speak.
>It
>isn't just a question of gender sensitivity, but of civility and
>cultural sensitivity as well. Most male musicians in the Irish
>tradition know of this tune title, and don't use it. Nor has this tune
>title ever had any currency among women musicians.
Well, not around you obviously, since you'd rip'em another hole where
they don't need it, and remove several items they do need.
>
>Most men I know and have come across, musician, Irish, or otherwise,
>just aren't that insensitive, sexist, and boorish to use the title "An
>Phis Fhliuch." But this is Usenet, one of the places (along with talk
>radio) where the men who *are* insensitive, sexist boors congregate
>and post with a much greater frequency. The traditional title for the
>tune that is most commonly used by musicians was given by a number of
>men early on in this thread. So what's the problem here?
So far, your almost Victorian-twisted-feminists hypersensitivity.
>Sexism and misogyny are not traditions most people I know care to
>nourish or perpetuate, irregardless of their authentic histories.
>Most of us know sexism and misogyny are *not* the same thing as bawdy
>sexual innuendo, subtle sexual coding, sexual playfulness and
>flirting, etc. in traditional and contemporary songs both composed
>and sung by men *and* women.
Speaking of Kierans, don't miss the Erotic poetry slam on Valentine's
day. I think you'll find the female gender excells not just in subtle
innuendo or coding and sexual playfulness or flirting.
>We can make those distinctions, and
>don't need to be preached to by people who have decided their
>knowledge is superior to ours
Since none of us know what you're on about, you seem to be the one
preaching here.
>--as you and a few other men on
>uk.music.folk have chosen to do in this instance.
And since I don't give a rat's rectum what goes on over there, don't
bother venting about it here.
>
>The point I made in my original post was those men who were posting
>were demonstrating rudeness and ignorance about the language, Irish
>culture, and the context of the use of this tune title.
You never really demonstrated that except by bold assertion, and in
the paragraph above, you defy your own complaint in suggesting that
there's nothing particulary wrong with either the title or
demonstrated any mysogynist lyrics that might be more than innuendo.
The "Wet Pussy" is a classic innuendo or double-entendre in English,
and I have no doubt that the same is true in Gaelic. Oh, how many
times have I endured Mrs. Slocum's constant, recurring pun, "I have to
go home and check my pussy...." and variations thereof, in the
incessant reruns of "Are You Being Served" on PBS, in your beloved St.
Paul?
>I also said
>the tune title "An Phis Fhliuch" is humiliating to women.
Right, you've *said* that. You haven't however offered anything other
than your blanket insult to all men (for no apparent reason) that the
existence of this title is mysogynist in nature. No lyrics. No proof
that it might just as well be about a cat that falls into a puddle.
>I am under
>no obligation to feed the monster that keeps perepetuating it's use,
>and I don't give a shit how angry that makes the men who wish to have
>their prurient interest satisfied by being given the cheap and easy
>translation.
The truth is, nobody gives a rip. There are no foaming, angry men
around to feel all reprimanded and threatened by your feminist
virtuosity. We're all laughing our asses of at your apparently
hysterical frenzy over a 3d rate pun.
>If you want the answer, talk to an Irish speaking woman
>and see what she tells you.
Maybe she'll tell you what the allegedy offensive lyrics are or
something. You know, something other than a lame pun that might
possibley explain the world-shaking social importance upon which you
have placed it.
>
>I posted originally for the benefit of people lurking in these
>newsgroups who really don't want to offend others,
I don't think so. The translation had already been exposed. You were a
late hit who's real and blatant express purpose was to scold the
"males" who were grinning a bit at the double-meaning, so there would
be no possible way they could enjoy the humor in it, like some
Victorian school-marm slapping the hands of naughty little boys in the
back row for throwing spitwads.
>and who would
>appreciate knowing that "An Phis Fhliuch" is a tune title that is
>rarely used for the slip jig in question, is considered inappropriate
>in sessions, and is a rude, obnoxious, disparaging term.
Well, that was pretty much what they were giggling about in the back
row, now, wasn't it?
>The very
>fact that an Irish tune title is being bantered about and defended by
>ignorant English speakers who don't know what the hell they are
>talking about, and who have exhibited the gender and cultural
>sensitivity of Attila the Hun in this thread,
The telling part of this of course, is that the title is in Gaelic,
Irish Gaelic, and the tune is Irish, and it was created in the Irish,
Gaelic culture, so doesn't it represent the mores of same? What have
English speakers to do with it whether they know what the hell it
means or not? It seems the very purpose of this Irish-born,
Gaelic-based cultural pun, this mysogynist masterpiece you so loath,
was to get the naughtly little boys in the back row tittering to
themselves. So we see, some things are common to many cultures. It's a
universal joke, and we got it. You didn't. I didn't say it was a
clever joke, or well-mannered joke, but then, I think you've created
an "Irish culture" based on your American, PC-based liberal
Irish/American experience, which, frankly, doesn't represent all or
most of the Irish experience. But I await the Irish input here with
eagerness.
>Anyone who believes that posting this Irish tune title in a header in
>rec.music.celtic was an innocent act is really clueless, but then
>there is apparently no better cure for gulliblity than there is for
>stupidity, if this thread is anything to judge by. And those looking
>the dumbest and most gullible of all are a handful of the men (all the
>usual suspects, I might add) posting from uk.music.folk.
Gullible in what way? You have yet to expose this element of your
thesis? Are you saying anyone believing this to be the literal
translation of the title is an idiot? Or are you saying, yes, that's
what it means, but the Irish never used it. Funny, it's an Irish
title, original title or not...hmm, wonder how it ever came to be
known by that title if it was never used?
Well Janet, I must say that any time someone like you logs on with
such an hysterical, scattergun-like rant over so petty, and typically
Irish pun, can't be all that in touch with the whole spectrum of
Celtic music, particularly the Irish. For example, I'll bet while your
corps of enlightened, male-feminists and yourself were playing sweetly
out front by the main bar, you were completely unaware of the Irish
men and women in the Titanic Lounge, actually getting paid to play for
the punters, jauntily firing off naughty Irish and Scottish ditties by
the dozen to the glee of one and all, Irish, Scottish, and American
born or not.
Look up from your egocentric little circle once and a while, and
you'll find it's a much bigger world than you ever imagined it to be,
with a lot more divergent and less prudish views than your own. Why
don't you find some male truly deserving of your feminist outrage,
like Howard Stern, or Bill Clinton.
>
>Janet Ryan
>
chrisrockcliffe
>bo...@purr.demon.co.uk (bogus address) wrote:
CUT FROM LONG POST...
>Most of us know sexism and misogyny are *not* the same thing as
bawdy
>sexual innuendo, subtle sexual coding, sexual playfulness and
>flirting, etc.
>Janet Ryan
-------------------------------
So if you understand that difference Janet... then... please add to
that...the fact that most of us misogynist males' did/do have a
serious interest in knowing what these Irish words and indeed any
Gaelic song title, actually means...even if it is crude.
...When I heard Denny Bartley and Chris Sherburn do this tune "O'
Farrell's Welcome to Limerick", recently, there was indeed some
muttering and laughter going on at the back of the room - which I
didn't understand then...but do now... Although we haven't had the
benefit of your own interpretation, which I for one, would like to
have seen.
You still insist on refusing to shed further light on the exact
meaning, which we're led to believe you do actually know...and
particularly as you clearly havn't denied its sexual connotation.
Can't you see that the feminist PC - Mary Whitehouse style posturing
in the light of this thread is not only untenable... but just plain
daft!...
I've often marvelled at the poetic romanticism of the Irish (Gaelic)
language. ...Indeed you inform us that we 'monoglots' would all
benefit by taking Irish nightclasses immediately.
However the language does seem to be showing some inadequacies
particularly with common terms in the area of female biology -
normally a fairly exact science. With the addition of this latest
one, it seems to me a tad 'fuzzy' to say the least, with the various
dictionary definitions seemingly unreliable - even suspiciously
'moderated'. And God help the dyslexic Irish speaker!
If only Mr Clinton's legal advisors had insisted on him answering
questions in Irish, he might not now be in the predicament he finds
himself. For Irish is apparently so rich in mystical metaphors and
strange dark euphemisms, he could have had those lawyers on Capital
Hill running round like jackrabbits. And his 'Choice Wife' might not
now be going for him 'hell for leather' with the crockery.
Just imagine ...
..."Mr President...were you ever near 'The Pink Mound' 'The Black
Part', or 'The Very Wet Peapod'?"...
No Sir, I was not! ".
"..and in the Oval office... Mr President... did Miss Lewinsky ever
'Welcome you to Limerick', or 'sing to the serpent', or touch 'the
rod of St Patrick' or 'play the pink practice chanter'?..."
"No Sir, she did not!"...
Gan canny,
Chris Rockcliffe
bogus address
ryan...@tc.umn.edu (Janet M. Ryan) writes:
>bo...@purr.demon.co.uk (bogus address) wrote:
>> ['The rampant cock' is] more or less what "Lango Lee" means (cue
>> for Janet to say no it doesn't and she knows the correct translation
>> but isn't going to tell us).
out a concise statement to anchor this to ]
The point is that you did *not* simply claim that the title in the
subject line is neither the oldest documented nor the most generally
used title for it; if that was *all* you'd said there wouldn't be a
problem. For that matter there wouldn't have been a problem if you'd
said that people who used the Irish title were doing it to be annoying
frat-boy clever-dicks, which for all I know they may well be. You
*also* said that the proffered English translation was wrong, and
accused the people who suggested it of looking up words mechanically
in a dictionary without understanding the Irish language.
Now, even I know enough Irish to know that you are never going to get
"O'Farrell's Welcome to Limerick" out of those three words: the one
word in it I do understand is "the", and that isn't in the longer title,
nor is there anything that could be a form of "O'Farrell" or "Limerick",
nor does it have the usual word for "welcome".
So if it isn't "The Wet Cunt" or "O'Farrell's Welcome to Limerick", what
*is* it? You're behaving like The Man With Three Buttocks in the Monty
Python sketch.
If, on the other hand, the suggested translation is correct, I suppose
the offending word is a variant of Scots Gaelic "pit", which has a range
of hole-related meanings, "cunt" among them. That word has its own
history of linguistic censorship; "pit" is also Pictish for a farm, like
"baile" in Irish, and was formerly as common an element in placenames,
maybe even *the* commonest element in Scottish placenames. But those old
Pictish names were almost all forgotten after the Gaels invaded; they
only survive in areas where the Gaels didn't significantly penetrate.
Most were obliterated by domineering thugs stomping over an indigenous
culture they never tried to understand and decided to be gratuitously
offended by. Any analogies to your Middle American attempts to reduce
the rest of the planet to silence are fully intentional.
I don't even like the tune very much, whatever it's called. Like so
many zillion-part nineteenth-century Irish instrumental pieces, the
various bits don't have any discernible overall thematic relationship
or any obvious reason why they should be in the order they are. I
suspect I'm the only person following this thread who's actually seen
O'Farrell's original book; the tune didn't leap out at me at the time.
The George Skene tune I quoted does a lot more for me, but then Skene
came from the heart of umquhile Pictish territory so maybe you won't
get it.
Mark Pugh
<ryan...@tc.umn.edu> writes
Lots of perfectly reasonable points in this one.
However,
>
>Anyone who believes that posting this Irish tune title in a header in
>rec.music.celtic was an innocent act is really clueless, but then
>there is apparently no better cure for gulliblity than there is for
>stupidity,
How do YOU learn, Janet?
I generally learn by research. I go to people who, I believe may be
able to supply the information I need, or books, or both.
In the case of the tune I heard, I think it was reasonable of me to ask
the person who was being paid to play it.
I admit to not knowing EVERYTHING about Irish tunes, if I did I wouldn't
need to ask any questions of anyone. This doesn't make me "clueless"
"gullible" or "stupid", it makes me a person who doesn't know
everything. I don't think I'm alone there.
As I've said before, I was told the alleged Gaelic title of the tune by
a musician in a music shop.
Now, I know that we shouldn't necessarily believe everything we're told
and we should challenge sources of information and all that but, come
on....
"What's that song called"
"It's called Blackbird and was written by Paul McCartney"
"How do you know he wrote it? Do you have proof? Blackbird, that's a
bit racist isn't it? What's its real name?"
Since, I was told the two names for the tune, I have seen the melody
printed, in published books, under both titles.
I now know a third title, which some authorities claim to be the
"correct" one: "O'Farrell's Welcome to Limerick". My knowledge
has increased slightly but I still don't know everything.
Furthermore, if
"
>Anyone who believes that posting this Irish tune title in a header in
>rec.music.celtic was an innocent act is really clueless,
"
then that would seem to suggest that a person should MAKE SURE they know
the whole history of a tune, find out every title it has and do a spot
of action research to see if any of the titles are offensive BEFORE
asking any questions about it. I think the tradition may have died a
long time ago if that was necessary.
If you knew as much as I did about this subject, and wanted some ideas
for a DADGAD backing, what would YOU have done?
[This is a genuine question, I'm really interested in how you would
approach the subject....no need for comments about my intelligence, or
knowledge]
Some other points.
Yes I am ignorant of the language. I never claimed otherwise. I have
no desire to learn the language, I just want to learn & play some music.
I wonder how many people who play orchestral pieces can speak the
language of all the composers whose music they play.
NO, I didn't know the title was offensive. Now I do, I'll think
carefully before I use it again.
Janet, much of what you have said is reasonable. Unfortunately, your
continued refusal to acknowledge the fact that you wrongly accused me
[both on here and by private email] and your insistence on lumping
people who have gaps in their knowledge in with people who are guilty of
misogyny us makes you appear as bigoted as those you speaking against,
as, I have seen, is often the case....
--
Bye,
Mark
Mark Pugh
> Unfortunately, your
>continued refusal to acknowledge the fact that you wrongly accused me
>[both on here and by private email]
I don't mean she made the accusations by email, but that she's refused
to acknowledge her error either on here or by email, when given the
opportunity.
>
>
>
--
Bye,
Mark
Jeri Corlew
<straight.to....@bigrocks.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <778s4k$gfm$1...@news1.tc.umn.edu>, Janet M. Ryan
><ryan...@tc.umn.edu> writes
>
>Lots of perfectly reasonable points in this one.
>
>However,
>>
>>Anyone who believes that posting this Irish tune title in a header in
>>rec.music.celtic was an innocent act is really clueless, but then
>>there is apparently no better cure for gulliblity than there is for
>>stupidity,
>
>
>How do YOU learn, Janet?
When it gets to the point where one is flamed for asking questions - and I've
seen that happen in both newsgroups from time to time - one discourages
questions.
>As I've said before, I was told the alleged Gaelic title of the tune by
>a musician in a music shop.
Who may or may not have been having a bit of fun with you. I've witnessed
English speakers teaching English-as-a-non-primary-language speakers the dirty
words for things just for fun. It doesn't work very well as a mean practical
joke unless somebody eventually gets offended and lets the person have it with
both barrels.
>
>"What's that song called"
>
>"It's called Blackbird and was written by Paul McCartney"
>
>"How do you know he wrote it? Do you have proof? Blackbird, that's a
>bit racist isn't it? What's its real name?"
>
True story: Americans in London. One points to two crow-like birds and states
something to the effect of "look at those ugly black birds." Two dark-skinned
women walking down street on other side of birds look at American with daggers
in their eyes. We explain to fellow American about "birds."
>
>If you knew as much as I did about this subject, and wanted some ideas
>for a DADGAD backing, what would YOU have done?
Probably the same as you. In retrospect however, I'd ask what the English
translation is.
Editorial comment:
My personal feeling is that when you get offended by words, regardless of
context, you give others incredible power over you and insure continued use of
these words. I've counseled people with sexually transmitted diseases. You
can't judge and you can't be easily shocked or you can't do the job. If you do
concentrate on the words instead of the message, you never communicate.
This lengthy flame war is more irritating to me than any number or combination
of "vulgar" terms.
--
Jeri Corlew
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H Gilmer
: On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:57:37 +0000, Mark Pugh
: <straight.to....@bigrocks.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: >In article <778s4k$gfm$1...@news1.tc.umn.edu>, Janet M. Ryan
: ><ryan...@tc.umn.edu> writes
: >>Anyone who believes that posting this Irish tune title in a header in
: >>rec.music.celtic was an innocent act is really clueless, but then
: >>there is apparently no better cure for gulliblity than there is for
: >>stupidity,
: >
: >As I've said before, I was told the alleged Gaelic title of the tune by
: >a musician in a music shop.
: Who may or may not have been having a bit of fun with you. I've witnessed
I'd heard the "alleged Gaelic title" years before I heard the
"O'Farrell's" title. It's been recorded by Planxty and by Paddy
Glackin and probably others. The title is out there, like it or not,
and a lot of people know the tune only by that name, like it or not.
Tough shit, move on, live with it, or start a boycott campaign against
Planxty.
Hg
Jeri Corlew
>Jeri Corlew (jer...@delanet.com) wrote:
>: On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:57:37 +0000, Mark Pugh
>: <straight.to....@bigrocks.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>: >
>: >As I've said before, I was told the alleged Gaelic title of the tune by
>: >a musician in a music shop.
>
>: Who may or may not have been having a bit of fun with you. I've witnessed
>
>I'd heard the "alleged Gaelic title" years before I heard the
>"O'Farrell's" title. It's been recorded by Planxty and by Paddy
>Glackin and probably others. The title is out there, like it or not,
>and a lot of people know the tune only by that name, like it or not.
>Tough shit, move on, live with it, or start a boycott campaign against
>Planxty.
Geez - who peed in your porridge this morning?
Perhaps you'd like to read my message again and then explain exactly which
combination of words caused you to blow up at me. I appreciate the info you
added, but there was no reason to be so rude to me.
Janet M. Ryan
>Janet M. Ryan wrote in message <778s4k$gfm$1...@news1.tc.umn.edu>...
>>bo...@purr.demon.co.uk (bogus address) wrote:
>CUT FROM LONG POST...
(and here comes another one--you've been forewarned)
>>Most of us know sexism and misogyny are *not* the same thing as
>>bawdy sexual innuendo, subtle sexual coding, sexual playfulness and
>>flirting, etc.
>>Janet Ryan
>-------------------------------
>So if you understand that difference Janet... then... please add to
>that...the fact that most of us misogynist males' did/do have a
>serious interest in knowing what these Irish words and indeed any
>Gaelic song title, actually means...even if it is crude.
I do appreciate that Chris. And while I have chosen not to provide
the information you want, I accept at face value a few of you have a
geniune rather than prurient interest in the title. And in most
instances and under most circumstances, I would be happy to oblige.
Just not this time.
SNIP
>... Although we haven't had the benefit of your own interpretation,
> which I for one, would like to have seen.
Chris, you aren't missing a thing by not having "the benefit of my
interpretation" as you put it, when other perfectly acceptable and
legitimate interpretations were given by other posters in the thread.
>You still insist on refusing to shed further light on the exact
>meaning, which we're led to believe you do actually know...and
>particularly as you clearly havn't denied its sexual connotation.
>Can't you see that the feminist PC - Mary Whitehouse style posturing
>in the light of this thread is not only untenable... but just plain
>daft!...
OK Chris, I'll come clean. Yes, I do know the sexual connotations of
the phrase. And I'm taking a deep breath here, and risking being held
up to ridicule one more time, to explain why I won't involve myself in
this thread at that level. After this, I don't want to talk about it
anymore. Period. If the thread goes on anyway, it will go on without
me just fine.
I haven't wanted to post about it because these words are integral to
the intimate expression of love in both Irish and English. These
words are, to me, both sacred and profane, and intensely private. I
really didn't want to open myself up to talk about what is a divine,
private part of me, of my love life, of my most intimate relationships
with men, and watch what I said be torn asunder for sport in a public
forum by men who, in the past as well as in this thread, demonstrated
they will go to almost any lengths to hurt, humiliate and shame me.
For me, this thread was also playing out as a double act of
dispossession of the sacredness of the language of love--for women,
and for Irish speakers. Now I know that Irish speakers not only do
not need me to defend them, but that any attempt by me to do so can
easily be construed as my being guilty of exhibiting the zealousness
of the recently converted. And maybe that is what it is. But in my
thinking, there is more to it than that.
First, there are no shortage of misogynist, sexist men in Irish Gaelic
society, including in the Irish traditional music community, and I
don't want to be put in a position of defending them. But there are
also Irish speaking men who, while they wouldn't use this term
publicly or in a way that disparages women, would use it intimately
and lovingly. And there are those Irish speaking men who would try to
suppress the term altogether, and deny its very existence. And Irish
speaking women who are both vehement and ambivalent about the use of
the term, publicly, privately, or intimately. In my mind anyway, when
we use the most intimate language of love, we are dueling with a
double edged sword--the sacred and the profane--when it is used in
*any* language.
It became quickly apparent to me early on in the thread, that there
was nothing I, or anyone could offer in a forum like this, under such
dire circumstances, that would allow any meaningful discussion to
occur in a sensitive enough manner that would do justice to the
subject.
When English speakers take phrases like these for themselves, and use
them in what I consider to be very negative and abusive contexts, some
even declaring they don't give a shit about the Gaelic language, its
contexts, the community, etc.--that is a profound act of dispossession
in my book, and it sickens my heart. I'm guessing that may be partly
because of my particular ancestral inheritance as an Irish American.
But it also is very much a reflection of the person I am, irregardless
of my ancestries. It sickens me any time it happens between English
speakers & the speakers of languages that have been and/or are being
wiped off the face of the earth by the dominance of the English
language.
And in my heart of hearts, I don't want to see wedges driven into the
most intimate language between men and women in Irish, English, or any
other language. To see that intimate, private language reduced to
what we've seen here deeply disturbs me--and probably sounds much
too...I don't know, too tender? too precious? for some. But to me,
love--any form of love, not just heterosexual love--really does seem
to be one of the most divine aspects of life on this earth--because it
seems to come from such a far away place, to so often pass us by, and
even when we are blessed by it, it is so damn hard to make it grow in
these hard places we end up abandoning it--its just such a fragile
aspect of our existence in this world. Its plenty hard enough to
communicate with one another without all that negative, unnecessary
baggage. The behavior I saw exhibited in this thread did just that,
in my mind at least. And it's viciousness made me all the more angry
and defensive, and even less willing to share such private, intimate
information with others who obviously thought so little of it, and
were treating the whole matter with such contempt.
Life in post-Famine Ireland forced the surviving Gaelic community to
assimilate into what in Ireland became a very severe patriarch
society, nearly as gender segregated as many Muslim societies are
today. In order to accomplish that, women were generally demonized,
and men were forced to adopt and adhere to proscribed forms of
woman-hating that is too often painfully evident still in gender
relations in Ireland and in Irish America--and it often manifests in
jokes, songs, etc.
Historically, the majority of the Gaelic population had always
practised free and universal marriage. But those marriage practices
virtually disappeared overnight in the wake of the Famine. And what
was left in that wake was a sick, wounded society.
The Congested Districts Boards were created to break up the
traditional forms of Gaelic village living--the clachan arrangement,
which was large extended families living in cluster type housing on
very small parcels of land. The changes forced by these boards, along
with changes in land laws, made it easier to segregate the sexes from
one another and control incidences of pre- and extra-marital sexual
contact. Men and women were increasingly expected to live celibate
lives providing free labor and care for their elder parents, to delay
marriage and childbirth until the death of their parents, or to
emigrate. Gaelic forms of amusement which brought men and women
together were forbidden, and repressive measures undertaken to control
and eventually eliminate the occassions where people came together
socially, in a deliberate effort to keep young men and women apart.
The justification given most often by church, state, and the
prosperous middle and upper classes for the necessity of these social
changes being foisted upon the surviving Gaelic Irish population, was
that the reckless breeding habits of the Gaelic Irish were responsible
for bringing the Famine down upon them--Divine Providence had
intervened to bring an end to their overly-permissive sexual practices
once and for all. These negative messages were deeply ingrained in
Irish sexual attitudes, and the repercussions of that forced
assimilation is still very much with us in men's and women's
relationships to one another both in Ireland and, to a lesser extent,
throughout the Irish Diaspora.
The end result of that era of forced assimililation from 1880-1920 was
devastating for Ireland, and for social relationships between Irish
men and women in particular. In less than a generation, the social
and class distances between landed and landless closely mirrored the
divisions between Gaelic and English speaking populations, which also
resulted in demonization of the Gaelic speaking population that still
exists in many parts of Ireland today. The age at first marriage
among both men and women skyrocketed to the highest in Western Europe,
though it had been one of the lowest just prior to the Famine. The
birth rate plummeted to the lowest in Europe where it had been one of
the highest, and combined with the devastating effects of emigration,
Ireland's net loss of population wasn't stopped and reversed until the
1960s, over a hundred years after the Famine ended. What essentially
happened was many men and women resident in Ireland did not marry for
decades. And that's what gives that terrible sadness and longing in
Irish love and emigration songs. They aren't simply songs about being
jilted by one's lover--they are songs about all love being abandoned
by one's people as a survival mechanism.
That has left some pretty deep wounds on the landscape of gender
relations in Irish and Irish American society, even though most people
aren't consciously aware of the historic reasons linked to specific
social and sexual behaviors in their Irish and Irish American families
and communities. There are Irish & Irish American people who would
read this and say I was crazy, that they've never heard such drivel.
Nontheless, in the last decade or so, things have begun to change and
people are just beginning to come to terms with what it all means.
So in addition to my reticence to discuss meanings and contexts of
this Irish phrase for reasons of personal privacy, there are these
other cultural reasons for not wanting to discuss them in a public
forum where the entire subject has been shown such utter contempt and
disregard as well. Those culturally specific reasons also caused me
to recoil at the leering and sneering by people scrutinizing the
sexual implications of this phrase in Gaelic--it just plain hit a raw
nerve in me, though I don't really know why. But I was absolutely
revulsed at the sight of it going on in the newsgroups.
Long winded as they might be--those are my reasons for not
participating in the so-called discussion of what the phrase means.
And believe me, nothing anyone here can say will change my mind.
>I've often marvelled at the poetic romanticism of the Irish (Gaelic)
>language. ...Indeed you inform us that we 'monoglots' would all
>benefit by taking Irish nightclasses immediately.
Chris, I didn't use the word monoglot as an epithet. It does surprise
a lot of people that the Irish language is still a living, breathing
and evolving language that real people use everyday. That was all I
meant.
>However the language does seem to be showing some inadequacies
>particularly with common terms in the area of female biology -
>normally a fairly exact science. With the addition of this latest
>one, it seems to me a tad 'fuzzy' to say the least, with the various
>dictionary definitions seemingly unreliable - even suspiciously
>'moderated'. And God help the dyslexic Irish speaker!
No comment--see above ranting diatribe.
>If only Mr Clinton's legal advisors had insisted on him answering
>questions in Irish, he might not now be in the predicament he finds
>himself. For Irish is apparently so rich in mystical metaphors and
>strange dark euphemisms, he could have had those lawyers on Capital
>Hill running round like jackrabbits. And his 'Choice Wife' might not
>now be going for him 'hell for leather' with the crockery.
>Just imagine ...
>..."Mr President...were you ever near 'The Pink Mound' 'The Black
>Part', or 'The Very Wet Peapod'?"...
>No Sir, I was not! ".
>"..and in the Oval office... Mr President... did Miss Lewinsky ever
>'Welcome you to Limerick', or 'sing to the serpent', or touch 'the
>rod of St Patrick' or 'play the pink practice chanter'?..."
>"No Sir, she did not!"...
<VBG>
This was very clever. And in case you were wondering, the other
"one-liner" post in response to your own that I made early on in the
thread was intended to be a tongue-in-cheek bit of black humor, and
not an attempt to diss you. It really was intended as good natured
slagging, and meant to break the tension. Clearly, that post was
misinterpreted, wasn't it? Sigh.
And finally, the barrage of negative posts directed at me personally
in this thread--in the newsgroups and via private email--made me feel
as if I was being assaulted--a feeling which, BTW, I have never had
in my six years on the Internet, and I've been in some very nasty
flamewars in that time. While that has abated somewhat, I really
don't have the heart energy to deal with any of you regarding this
thread anymore, here in the newsgroup or privately via email, no
matter how well intended your posts might be. I'll do my best to
respond to those of you who have written to me privately already, but
I'm not making any promises.
Janet Ryan
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
>Any analogies to your Middle American attempts to reduce
>the rest of the planet to silence are fully intentional.
The telling part of Mzzz Ryan's Rant (Hey, there's a tune title in
that...scribble scribble, mouse mouse, point click....) is that she
apparently represents the feminist subset of the American "Folk"
revival of the late 60's and 70's, where confused, often spoiled
rich-brats spent their developmental years attempting to empathise
with various downtrodden ethnic minorities and labor-underclass-types,
while at the same time forcing connections between these political
causes and this thing they reconstructed as "Folk" music.
The problem is of course, valid as many of these causes may be, the
music itself, American, Irish, Scottish, new-Folk, old-folk, really
only connects with the socio-ethnic-economic group these trendy
folk-Nazis adopted along the way. The sideshow of specifically
American or liberal motivations or causes in which this "foreign"
music was discovered doesn't always find itself in any real harmony
with the ethnic roots allegedly being embraced. Often, as in Mzzzz
Ryan's case, there remains no particular understanding at all of the
broader society in which the music or song originate, only some vague
permutation of it colored heavily by personal expectation.
Royce
Royce Lerwick
wrote:
Thanks for the history lesson that had absolutely nothing to do with
your hysterical response to an harmless pun in Gaelic.
Royce
You've struck the biggest blow for wymyn since Monica Lewinski.
Royce
H Gilmer
: >: On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:57:37 +0000, Mark Pugh
: >: <straight.to....@bigrocks.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: >: >
: >: >As I've said before, I was told the alleged Gaelic title of the tune by
: >: >a musician in a music shop.
: >: >: Who may or may not have been having a bit of fun with you.
: Perhaps you'd like to read my message again and then explain exactly which
: combination of words caused you to blow up at me. I appreciate the info you
: added, but there was no reason to be so rude to me.
Sorry, it wasn't so much aimed at you personally but at everyone in
general, although what set it off was the bit above. I'm now guessing
how you actually meant it was "as far as you knew, he may have been
having fun with you, so you should have found out what it meant before
posting it".
Hg
George Hawes
>: >Jeri Corlew (jer...@delanet.com) wrote:
>: >: On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:57:37 +0000, Mark Pugh
>: >: <straight.to....@bigrocks.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>: >: >
>: >: >As I've said before, I was told the alleged Gaelic title of the tune by
>: >: >a musician in a music shop.
>: >: >: Who may or may not have been having a bit of fun with you.
>: Perhaps you'd like to read my message again and then explain exactly which
>: combination of words caused you to blow up at me. I appreciate the info you
>: added, but there was no reason to be so rude to me.
>Sorry, it wasn't so much aimed at you personally but at everyone in
>general, although what set it off was the bit above.
For what it's worth - Jeri, reading this thread I didn't read Mr
Gilmer's remark as getting at you, or indeed at anyone. I'd
guess he'd go along with my view that your post was a pretty
sensible one, and (in particular) its latter points (about the
importance of context rather than 'raw' content) provided a
sensible focus. Certainly I welcomed them.
Which brings me to the point Ms Ryan seems to have missed but
'stares me in the face' from this thread. Excuse me breaking it
into simple steps . .
a) Many of us have encountered the Gaelic title of this tune
without having a clue as to its meaning
b) It is now apparent that the Gaelic title is likely to cause
considerable offence to some Gaelic speakers [#1]
c) A significant proportion of those identified in (a) are now
likely to think carfully about how/when/whether they use the
Gaelic title.
Whatever Janet may think, IMO that's A Good Thing (TM). Indeed,
in general, an increase in knowledge is A Good Thing (TM). It's
a pity some of us seem to be upsetting others of us along the
way.
Regards (esp. to Jeri and H Gilmer at this moment)
George
#1] Of course it is possible that the accurate translation of
the Gaelic title which Ms Ryan isn't prepared to tell us is, in
fact, perfectly innocuous; but I guess this isn't very likely
;-)
George Hawes
> And I'm taking a deep breath here, and risking being held
>up to ridicule one more time, to explain why I won't involve myself in
>this thread at that level.
But the reason you have held yourself up to ridicule is
precisely that you HAVE CHOSEN to involve yourself, repeatedly
and at length, in the thread at this level while remaining coy
about the meaning you (seemingly uniquely) ascribe to the title.
G.
Mark Pugh
The conclusion smacks of Frankenstein though.
And STILL no attempt to apologise for or back up your wrongful
accusations directed at my initial post.
I've seen it all before.
One day, just once, I'd love to see someone admit they were wrong.
It can be done.
Hmm. It'll probably be me.
Bye Janet, it's been fun.
--
Bye,
Mark
Mark Pugh
<George...@i-cubed.co.uk> writes
>
>Whatever Janet may think, IMO that's A Good Thing (TM). Indeed,
>in general, an increase in knowledge is A Good Thing (TM).
Here bloody here!
Hmmm. Increasing our knowledge and entertaining us at the same time....
I get paid quid-pounds for doing that. Janet, wanna job?
--
Bye,
Mark
Jeri Corlew
>: >Jeri Corlew (jer...@delanet.com) wrote:
>: >: On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:57:37 +0000, Mark Pugh
>: >: <straight.to....@bigrocks.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>: >: >
>: >: >As I've said before, I was told the alleged Gaelic title of the tune by
>: >: >a musician in a music shop.
>: >: >: Who may or may not have been having a bit of fun with you.
>
>: Perhaps you'd like to read my message again and then explain exactly which
>: combination of words caused you to blow up at me. I appreciate the info you
>: added, but there was no reason to be so rude to me.
>
>Sorry, it wasn't so much aimed at you personally but at everyone in
>general, although what set it off was the bit above. I'm now guessing
>how you actually meant it was "as far as you knew, he may have been
>having fun with you, so you should have found out what it meant before
>posting it".
Thanks for clarifying - I'm OK now. I thought my post was your sole
provocation, but it seems like you were just replying to my message to comment
on the whole thread. I dislike the tendency for many to "assume" what other
mean, as opposed to what they actually say. It seems as though I may have done
that, and I apologise.
Hindsight being 20/20 and all, it *would* have been better for him if he'd known
what the title meant. OTOH, I see no way he could have predicted the reaction
to it.
Jon Plews
Richard Robinson wrote in message <77b50s$b24$1...@beulah.demon.co.uk>...
[ snip ]
>
>I wonder whether this tune may not have gathered itself a few new
>titles over the past week ...
>
Ryan's Dry Dog?
Jon Plews.
Mark Pugh
<jer...@delanet.com> writes
>
>Hindsight being 20/20 and all, it *would* have been better for him if he'd known
>what the title meant. OTOH, I see no way he could have predicted the reaction
>to it.
Concur on both counts.
Still, as has been said elsewhere, we live and learn....
--
Bye,
Mark
nails
wrote:
>I'm thrilled to see the surge of interest in the Irish language this
>thread has generated. For those who have expressed a sincere interest
>in the language, I would draw your attention to the fact that Irish
>language classes for beginners are now being offered throughout the
>UK, the US & Canada, and both teachers and learners would love to see
>you join in. Its great craic. Is Gaeilgeoir me freisin--I'm an Irish
>learner too.
>
>Please don't be put off by the immature, negative stuff in this
>thread--learn some Irish instead! Its a beautiful, metaphorical
>language, with a profound and rich literary tradition to which the
>music traditions are inextricably linked. A lot of English language
>singers are learning the language to be able to sing the songs--there
>are a lot of good reasons to act upon even a casual impulse to learn
>the language. And who knows? You could be singing "An -tOilean Ur"
>(an emigration song about The New Found Island--America) as a fun way
>to learn another language and some fascinating history at the same
>time!
>
>I can also suggest some books, tapes and videos for beginners which
>can be used independently for those who aren't in metropolitan areas
>where classes would be on offer. There is access to Irish and Scots
>Gaelic (along with other Celtic languages) on-line, and more is coming
>on-line everyday. You can listen to daily broadcasts on-line in Irish
>from Raidio na Gaetachta. There is a lot of stuff here to help you
>along. Post me privately, and I'd be happy to send you any
>information I have.
>
>There are also a number of useful, inexpensive Irish/English
>dictionaries for those who have limited interest in the language, but
>might find the dictionaries a handy adjunct to their interests in
>Irish traditional music. Odd as it might seem to English language
>monoglots, musicians and punters alike actually use the Irish language
>to transmit a good amount of information about the music from
>generation to generation even today. Again, post me privately, and
>I'll gladly send any information I have along.
>
>And for those of you with nothing more than a fleeting, prurient
>interest in knowing "the literal translation" of dirty ditties, I
>suggest you enlighten yourselves for a change and look it up.
>
>Slan agus beannacht,
>
>Janet Ryan
I contacted you privately(as requested) and as yet you haven`t
responded!!
Royce Lerwick
Hawes) wrote:
>Whatever Janet may think, IMO that's A Good Thing (TM). Indeed,
>in general, an increase in knowledge is A Good Thing (TM). It's
>a pity some of us seem to be upsetting others of us along the
>way.
Let's not get this blown out of proportion. There is one person upset
That is Ms Ryan, and even the most objective reading of her hysterical
proselytizing whatever real cause she's working toward, reveals that
she went way out her way to be outraged.
Royce
Lawrence E Mallette
: I don't even like the tune very much, whatever it's called. Like so
: many zillion-part nineteenth-century Irish instrumental pieces, the
: various bits don't have any discernible overall thematic relationship
: or any obvious reason why they should be in the order they are.
Actually it's 5 parts, not 6. I miscounted while looking at my copy
of O'Farrell's tutor (photocopy of original, as spiffed up and
republished by Pat Sky a couple of years ago.
: ......I
: suspect I'm the only person following this thread who's actually seen
: O'Farrell's original book; the tune didn't leap out at me at the time.
Nope.
See above.
George Hawes
>On Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:34:21 GMT, George...@i-cubed.co.uk (George
>Hawes) wrote:
>> It's
>>a pity some of us seem to be upsetting others of us along the
>>way.
>Let's not get this blown out of proportion. There is one person upset
Well that's one more than I'd wish . . But Jeri and H Gilmer
were also getting at cross purposes.
G.
Scott C DeLancey
bogus address <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>If, on the other hand, the suggested translation is correct, I suppose
>the offending word is a variant of Scots Gaelic "pit", which has a range
>of hole-related meanings, "cunt" among them. That word has its own
I don't think so. It's actually borrowed from English, though probably
a long time ago. It's the same word as English "puss" ("pussy" being just
a diminutive form of that, like "kitty").
chrisrockcliffe
>"chrisrockcliffe" <chrisro...@scripto99.demon.co.uk> wrote:
-------------------------------
I feel I should respond to Janet Ryan's posting - even though I
think this thread has well and truly run its course. I don't expect
(or ask) Janet to reply.
It started as a simple question about tunings and keys for a tune. I
for one, have not seen any evidence that Mark Pugh deliberately set
about using the Irish title in order to shock or open up a thread
about sexual terms and words. But even if he had, would it be such a
bad thing to discuss?.
Mant people in folk circles strive for 'authenticity' in playing and
singing. Our folk song books are full of moderated lyrics and song
titles. 100 years ago, the likes of Cecil Sharp and his contempories
in Britain and Lomax and son (and others more recently) in America,
collected tunes and songs which would otherwise have been lost to
us. But in doing so, they often altered or omitted bordy songs,
verses, words and titles that did not conform with their ideas of
suitability and morality.
The sea shanty tradition is a prime example - so is the cowboy song
tradition in the US - both exclusively male of course. These two
genres have much in common - singing to harmonise physical effort,
singing to becalm nervous cattle herds at night - and in both cases
also group singing for pleasure and to relieve boredom.
My first awareness of this censorship came at the age of 16, when I
was singing a cotton ship shanty called 'Whip Jamboree' or more
correctly 'Whup Jamboree'. I sang the last line of the chorus as
'Jinny get your oat cakes done' - the words in my songbook. Then a
professional folk group did a spot singing it as 'Come and get yer
oats me son' - correctly, and on asking, I was told about 'cleaned
up' sea chanties.
Almost all the censorship centred around sexual connotations. Now
it's political correctness - whaling songs, fox-hunting songs,
hare-hunting songs which are sometimes frowned upon - even in a
historical context. The words 'nigger' and 'darkies' and other terms
to describe negroes were part of many a sea shanty - and have also
been changed - most would say quite rightly - and a reflection of
the seedier and unnacceptable aspects of our maritime slave trading
history.
The point I'm making is that we all have sensibilities - and we all
draw the line somewhere. If bordy and vulgar songs do alienate
significant numbers of people from folk circles - it is hardly
helpful for the 'cause' of traditional folk music.
I'd be the first to admit that I have enjoyed this thread and had a
lot of laughs, indeed it has had me crying with laughter at times.
My god, I need to laugh more in my life right now.
Interesting a subject as it is, we've moved so far away from the
initial question that it's getting very silly. What is even sillier
is the fact that after all these postings - in 4 newsgroups - (many
not cross posted to all) we - collectively - still do not have a
definitive, unambiguous answer to the question of what 'An Phis
Fhliuch' actually means. None of us will ever forget it though.
In common with many heterosexual males, I have spent a considerable
part of my life trying to increase my understanding regarding the
relative complexity of female sexuality. I have never needed a
flashlight, magnifying glass or a team of bloodhounds to find what I
was looking for. In this area - ignorance is certainly not bliss.
In uk folk newsgroup recently, there was someone asking about a song
which contained the line "show us the length of your cock". Not a
single person complained about it, even when it was re-posted a
second time. (I'm not suggesting that anyone should have done so
either) If I'm not mistaken the poster was female.
Like others, I consider the female sexual organ a thing of beauty in
the context of love, sexual pleasure and procreation. According to
many leading feminists, it is often women themselves who feel
otherwise, because of - at worst - child sexual abuse, repressed
upbringing, abusive male language and behaviour, menstruation and
low sexual expectation. Yes it is a complex area - agreed.
Understanding Janet...
I still fail to understand her reticence in enlightening us further.
Janet stated categorically, that it does not mean 'the wet pussy' or
'the wet cunt', and the latter is possibly the most offensive of
common terms for the female pudenda. (Coupled with the fact that
Janet herself was the first to spell out 'c.u.n.t.' for us -
replacing the coy asterisks). If it literally means something more
'poetic' and less vulgar, then I'd have thought she'd have liked us
to know it. But she doesn't and that's that.
Given Janet's long - but also more personal and sensitive - recent
posting, it begs the question why she came bounding into the
newsgroups wielding a metephorical shillelagh to - beat - every -
last - bloody - mysoginist - sexist - man - of - us. Thereby
treating us all as if we were leering, sniggering adolescents who
had personally offended her. A big error on her part. (Sophmoric?)
Over in RMMGA, (one of the 4 newsgroups involved) Wade Hampton
Miller, in my opinion a nice chap, one of the leading lights on that
NG, and always willing to help young acoustic guitarists in any way,
found himself previously in verbal battle with Ms Ryan.
The fact is that he kept out of this posting because of previous
experience, having made his peace with her pivately about that.
For me, it speaks volumes about Janet's approach and about the
problems of verbal expression in newsgroups.
From her latest posting it should be clear to many where Janet is
coming from (no pun intended or implied). She is obviously very
interested in Irish culture and history in this social and sexual
context, although I think she has a very personal interpretation of
history, religious dogma and its revisionist theories.
Janet, you do have a reputation in several NG's as a viscous flamer
and a militant PC feminist. If you get accused of being things you
believe (or know) you're not - as man-hating lesbian - or vicious
politically correct tyrant or anything else - you need to choose
your language carefully in future. The way we express ourselves in
words on the Internet eh?
Janet has said that she has encountered more hostility from her
postings in this thread than anywhere else. However, it was Janet
herself who raised the temperature and if she wants to understand
why so many people were upset, she should now use her considerable
analytical skills to look closely at her own postings.
That said, I think Janet's statement about withdrawing entirely from
this thread should be respected and no-one should hound her further.
Gan canny,
Chris Rockcliffe
Jeri Corlew
wrote:
>pmle...@wavetech.net (Royce Lerwick) wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:34:21 GMT, George...@i-cubed.co.uk (George
>>Hawes) wrote:
>
>>> It's
>>>a pity some of us seem to be upsetting others of us along the
>>>way.
>
>>Let's not get this blown out of proportion. There is one person upset
>
>Well that's one more than I'd wish . . But Jeri and H Gilmer
>were also getting at cross purposes.
I jumped to a conclusion. It doesn't excuse me doing it, but it seems like
there's an awful lot of that going on. Newsgroup lemmings. The rules of this
thread seem to be:
1) If you're not sure what someone really means, assume the worst.
2) If they say they mean one thing, they really mean something else.
3) If somebody gets pissed off, see if you can't make them madder.
George, thanks for your gracious words in your previous post using "sensible"
and my name in the same sentence. I have gotten upset during this thread. Not
at the title or the music but at the way people are treating one another. I
perhaps am not alone. Thanks for your words of wisdom.
Mark Pugh
chrisrockcliffe <chrisro...@scripto99.demon.co.uk> writes
Here here to the whole post.
Nice one, Chris ... as usual.
I've learned loads from this saga.
Case closed.
--
Bye,
Mark
Royce Lerwick
<chrisro...@scripto99.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>The words 'nigger' and 'darkies' and other terms
>to describe negroes...
What an ignorant bigot. Only the Klan refers to African Americans as
"negros" in this enlightened age. (This week that is--we're still
awaiting the final euphemism.)
>I still fail to understand her reticence in enlightening us further.
>Janet stated categorically, that it does not mean 'the wet pussy' or
>'the wet cunt', and the latter is possibly the most offensive of
>common terms for the female pudenda. (Coupled with the fact that
>Janet herself was the first to spell out 'c.u.n.t.' for us -
>replacing the coy asterisks). If it literally means something more
>'poetic' and less vulgar, then I'd have thought she'd have liked us
>to know it. But she doesn't and that's that.
Because she's wrong. It doesn't mean "cunt" at all. It's an almost
universally understood, multi-cultural kitty-cat metaphor as it was
originally supposed and she's just gone nuts.
>
>Given Janet's long - but also more personal and sensitive - recent
>posting, it begs the question why she came bounding into the
>newsgroups wielding a metephorical shillelagh to - beat - every -
>last - bloody - mysoginist - sexist - man - of - us. Thereby
>treating us all as if we were leering, sniggering adolescents who
>had personally offended her. A big error on her part. (Sophmoric?)
Because, like the "negro" she and her militant feminist friends
"lovers?" feel ownership of the word empowers them. "Wazzup nigga?" is
daily conversation in the "black" or "African American" popular
community. "Butch-bitch, Bull-Dike, and Cunt" are HER! words and she
won't have you appropriating them.
>From her latest posting it should be clear to many where Janet is
>coming from (no pun intended or implied). She is obviously very
>interested in Irish culture and history in this social and sexual
>context, although I think she has a very personal interpretation of
>history, religious dogma and its revisionist theories.
That's being too fair. She's obviously just appropriated Irish or
Celtic culture and quasi-history as a lush bedding in which to
cultivate her own personal, feminist religious experience.
>
>Janet, you do have a reputation in several NG's as a viscous flamer
>and a militant PC feminist. If you get accused of being things you
>believe (or know) you're not - as man-hating lesbian - or vicious
>politically correct tyrant or anything else - you need to choose
>your language carefully in future. The way we express ourselves in
>words on the Internet eh?
In the 70's, for some reason, the Gay community began to gravitate
toward things Scottish/Irish/Celtic. This may have to do with the
butchness of kilts and leather and swords, or it may have to do with
passive-agressive rebellion against the predominantly Roman Catholic,
and not-all-that-Gay-centered ethos that had till then essentially
excluded anything remotely Gay simply by default. Today, you can go to
straight, IRA-supporting, conservative, male-macho Irish bars in St
Paul MN and find legions of step-dancing Ellen Degeneris-clones,
clustered with overtly effeminate, tall, gangly guys in Doc Martins,
embarassing shorts exposing their knobby, hairly legs like schoolboys
who've been held back 20 years. Maybe it's the dancing, the prancing,
or the really cool stuff you get to wear.
I have to admit, if I were gay, playing bagpipes or hanging out in the
Celtic crowd would be a lot more attractive than, say, joining a
bowling team, or takin up golf or soccer. I mean, you get to wear a
dress and lots of jewelery and accessories, carry a knife or a dirk or
a sword, and if anyone gives you any crap, you can rally your butch
palls to help beat the shit out of them. Hell, I'm straight and that's
still funner than bowling or golf.
The confusion however, arises when these Gay interlopers, entrenched
in their own narrowly-focused intrusion upon the actual culture they
pretend to have embraces, lose perspective over the lengthy time they
have now been in active infiltration of the society, and begin to
imagine that they really represent the norm, or mainstream.
Royce