Wild Rover in the public domain?
Julian Flood
> A subtle and beautiful song. Once you have mastered its delightful
> complexities you will be feted and congratulated wherever you sing
> it. ;-)
People who like music but aren't folkies know TWR, Duelling Mandolins(*) and
Putting On The Style. They also demand Happy Birthday and Green Green Grass
of Home. Whiskey In The Jar does for an encore. Anything else they talk over
or go to the bar. (research carried out at the Coney Weston barbeque last
Saturday)
Why aren't more sessions like this?
(*)Don't ask. Err... has anyone seen tab/dots of this anywhere?
--
Julian Flood
Life, the Universe and Climbing Plants at www.argonet.co.uk/users/julesf.
Graham Holland
Lawton) said:
>
>A subtle and beautiful song. Once you have mastered its delightful
>complexities you will be feted and congratulated wherever you sing
>it. ;-)
er... it's not for me, honest. It's for a friend.
Actually, it is in a campfire songbook that I have edited and placed
online. Some of my friends in the USA want me to record a CD of songs
from the book, Wild Rover being one of those requested...
:-)
Graham
P.S. Check out the songbook at http://homepages.enterprise.net/zaba/
It is called The Good Book of Peter Henry.
--
GRAHAM HOLLAND <za...@enterprise.net> Liverpool, England
uk.rec.scouting FAQ http://www.scoutnet.org.uk/uk_rec.htm
Jim Lawton
>Actually, it is in a campfire songbook that I have edited and placed
>online. Some of my friends in the USA want me to record a CD of songs
>from the book, Wild Rover being one of those requested...
>
>:-)
>
>Graham
>
>P.S. Check out the songbook at http://homepages.enterprise.net/zaba/
>It is called The Good Book of Peter Henry.
>
Song book good. :0) Jim
bogus address
According to something I heard on the radio not long ago, the version
everybody sings nowadays derives from Walter Pardon, and hence would
be his copyright, if his estate could figure out any way to collect on
it. It isn't PD, just very widely pirated.
========> Email to "jc" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce. <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
Gwilym Davies
<bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>According to something I heard on the radio not long ago, the version
>everybody sings nowadays derives from Walter Pardon, and hence would
>be his copyright, if his estate could figure out any way to collect on
>it. It isn't PD, just very widely pirated.
>
Brothers recording of the mid-60s, long before Walter was "discovered".
It is an old folksong with a long history and any rumours that it is not
PD can be discounted.
--
Gwilym Davies
Gerry Milne
>everybody sings nowadays derives from Walter Pardon, and hence would
>be his copyright, if his estate could figure out any way to collect on
>it. It isn't PD, just very widely pirated.
>
--
Gerry Milne
Folk London http://www.grove-cottage.demon.co.uk/folklon/
CTImail
>Brothers recording of the mid-60s, long before Walter was "discovered".
>It is an old folksong with a long history and any rumours that it is not
>PD can be discounted.
Actually, I'm pretty certain that the Dubliners' version pre-dates the
Clancy's. Just goes to show how confusing the copyrighting of traditional songs
can be.
JD
bogus address
>> According to something I heard on the radio not long ago, the version
>> everybody sings nowadays derives from Walter Pardon, and hence would
>> be his copyright, if his estate could figure out any way to collect on
>> it. It isn't PD, just very widely pirated.
> Not so. The version most people sing these days derives from a Clancy
> Brothers recording of the mid-60s, long before Walter was "discovered".
Except, he *was* discovered by the Clancy Brothers; it was his version
they used.
> It is an old folksong with a long history and any rumours that it is
> not PD can be discounted.
I posted a 17th century antecedent of it here not long ago. But that
wasn't the one you hear in pubs.
Martin Banks
(bogus address) wrote:
> Except, he *was* discovered by the Clancy Brothers; it
> was his version
> they used.
> >
Cooo, didn't know that. According to an Observer's Book of
Folk I have, he was `encouraged' to start performing by
Peter Bellamy (OK, it doesn't specifically say
`discovered'). I seem to remember hearing Peter say, at a
gig, that he did discover Walter (but that might well be
faulty memory on my part).
wen...@cix.compulink.co.uk
ban...@cix.co.uk (Martin Banks) usenetted:
I know Peter certainly learned a lot of songs from him. :)
wg
Dick Gaughan
+0100, Kevin Sheils <k.sh...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>Mention of the Observer's book made me look up Walter's web entry on the
>All Music Guide to see what they had.
>
>No biography I'm afraid but the entry lists the following.
>
>Genre: Folk
>Style: Contemporary Folk
>Similar Artists: Nic Jones, Andrew Cronshaw.
Ah yes, Andy - that renowned exponent of the unaccompanied Norfolk
song.
It was Peter Bellamy who first introduced me to Walter at one of
the old Norwich festivals. It was my first real exposure to
Norfolk dialect and we spent a couple of hours where I couldn't
understand a word Walter said and he couldn't understand a word I
said, with Pete having to act as interpreter. Made for an
interesting if bizarre conversation.
That was sometime in the early 70s and there were a couple of
Norfolk singers well known before that time, notably Sam Larner as
a result of his contribution to "Singing The Fishing", (was Harry
Cox also from Norfolk?) but the folk world was a lot smaller in
those days and I don't recall ever having heard of Walter Pardon
until Bellamy started promoting him and I confess to being just a
wee bit sceptical about the suggestion of the Clancy Brothers
having discovered him. It is possible, I suppose, but I've never
heard it suggested before and I'd need some supporting evidence
before being convinced. If I remember correctly, the Clancy's
recorded it in the early 60s and I'm pretty sure Walter was
"undiscovered" at that time. Also, the melody to which he sang the
Wild Rover had a couple of significant variations from the
Clancy's version.
I don't know if Heather Wood still reads umf but, if you're out
there Heather, what's your recollection about Pete's involvement
with Walter?
Perhaps like the rest of us he learned it from the Clancy's?
Not at all far-fetched. I am minded of Hamish Henderson recording
Willie Scott and being dumbfounded at Willie singing him the
Gillie Mor as an "old Borders song" - 6 years after Hamish had
written it.
But, then again, I am not aware of the Wild Rover being known or
sung in Ireland pre-Clancy and it's pretty clear that its origin
is English. Is it possible that they learned it from Luke Kelly?
Which would provide a link to Bert Lloyd?
That last remark was tongue-in-cheek, incidentally.
--
DG
Jeri Corlew
<di...@dickalba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Perhaps like the rest of us he learned it from the Clancy's?
>Not at all far-fetched. I am minded of Hamish Henderson recording
>Willie Scott and being dumbfounded at Willie singing him the
>Gillie Mor as an "old Borders song" - 6 years after Hamish had
>written it.
>
>But, then again, I am not aware of the Wild Rover being known or
>sung in Ireland pre-Clancy and it's pretty clear that its origin
>is English. Is it possible that they learned it from Luke Kelly?
>Which would provide a link to Bert Lloyd?
>
>That last remark was tongue-in-cheek, incidentally.
This may possibly wind up being one of those things where I type a whole
bunch of stuff in, everyone reads it and says, "Well, we knew that
already." I'll take a chance.
The Wild Rover is #1480 in the Greig-Duncan Song Collection with 6 versions
of the words and 5 tunes. I put one ("B") into MIDI to see what it sounded
like, and it's quite similar to what's sung today. The notes for this
version (in part) say:
"Misc. 155, Wallace 36-7, Dw 5.174-5. "William Wallace; learnt from a
James McHardy, a shepherd from Ordihoy, Corgarff, about twenty years ago.
It does not appear to be Folk-Song. Noted 26th August 1908."
The chorus of this one is,
"Nay! na! never! never no more,
I never will play the wild rover no more."
Not a huge shift to "No! Nay! Never! *whack*whack*whack*whack*," IMO. Of
course, I have to wonder. Whenever I shout "Eureka!" there's a good chance
I've missed the point entirely. (No, I didn't miss the "tongue-in-cheek"
bit. Just wondering how old this song is, and where it originates.)
--
Jeri Corlew
(Remove "XXX" to reply)
David Kilpatrick
<jeri...@tds.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Sep 2000 13:52:24 +0100, Dick Gaughan
> <di...@dickalba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Perhaps like the rest of us he learned it from the Clancy's?
>>Not at all far-fetched. I am minded of Hamish Henderson recording
>>Willie Scott and being dumbfounded at Willie singing him the
>>Gillie Mor as an "old Borders song" - 6 years after Hamish had
>>written it.
>>
>>But, then again, I am not aware of the Wild Rover being known or
>>sung in Ireland pre-Clancy and it's pretty clear that its origin
>>is English. Is it possible that they learned it from Luke Kelly?
>>Which would provide a link to Bert Lloyd?
>>
>>That last remark was tongue-in-cheek, incidentally.
>
> This may possibly wind up being one of those things where I type a whole
> bunch of stuff in, everyone reads it and says, "Well, we knew that
> already." I'll take a chance.
>
> The Wild Rover is #1480 in the Greig-Duncan Song Collection with 6 versions
> of the words and 5 tunes. I put one ("B") into MIDI to see what it sounded
> like, and it's quite similar to what's sung today. The notes for this
> version (in part) say:
>
I was going to dig this out and post accordingly. When I made my original
post saying that the chorus had changed, it was the Greig-Duncan version I
was thinking of. Having now read the entire seven volumes which I have end
to end (but only once) I tend to know what I have seen, but not where!
Thanks for saving me the trouble!
I find the Greig-Duncan invaluable and several of my current versions of
traditional songs are based on conflating or editing down G-D versions -
apart from that, careful examination of the versions can make sense of some
garbage versions which have been recorded in the meantime, missing verses or
failing to make sense. Usually between the singers, G-D offers a complete
set of words, even if distributed between 20 variations. It's well worth the
money and the fact that it has all the melody lines - unlike so many similar
collections in print - is a big bonus.
David Kilpatrick
--
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Gwilym Davies
>>> everybody sings nowadays derives from Walter Pardon, and hence would
>>> be his copyright, if his estate could figure out any way to collect on
>>> it. It isn't PD, just very widely pirated.
>> Not so. The version most people sing these days derives from a Clancy
>> Brothers recording of the mid-60s, long before Walter was "discovered".
>
>Except, he *was* discovered by the Clancy Brothers; it was his version
>they used.
>
I find this hard to believe. The Clancys were singing the song in the
early 60s and I don't believe there is any way they could have met and
learnt songs from Walter before that date. The earliest I remember
hearing about Walter was in the 1970s. Do you have any evidence for
your assertion above?
--
Gwilym Davies
CTImail
>early 60s and I don't believe there is any way they could have met and
>learnt songs from Walter before that date. The earliest I remember
>hearing about Walter was in the 1970s. Do you have any evidence for
>your assertion above?
>--
>Gwilym Davies
>
>
>
>
Kelly singing) recorded this song on their first album (also released as a
single), and pre-dated the Clancy's version.
Luke may well have learned the song during one of his sojourns in England.
JD
anita.gordon
in a slightly different format But the SAME song never the less
by german singer in 1959 ( yes I know I am A wrinkly)
According to the following albums it is trad which means it is copyright
FREE
Seven Drunken Nights (Blarney Lads)CD6023
12 Good Reasons To Get Pissed(wilderness)QWD0014
Dubliners(several Albums have it listed as trad)
Clancy Brothers(several Albums have it listed as Trad)
Tommy Makem
Brendan Shine
Corries
Black 47
to name but a few go on record it as my husband says(Wilderness) Let them
Sue me I could do with the publisity We are 100% sure as are Quagaars
Recording Studios of Linclon the song is copyright free
When we have been on a gig and visited by the reps from the P.R.S.
(performing Rights Socity)
They have always said the same (there again they use the Guiness Book of
records)
CTImail <cti...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000908170106...@ng-ba1.aol.com...
bogus address
>>>> According to something I heard on the radio not long ago, the version
>>>> everybody sings nowadays derives from Walter Pardon, and hence would
>>>> be his copyright, if his estate could figure out any way to collect on
>>>> it. It isn't PD, just very widely pirated
>>> Brothers recording of the mid-60s, long before Walter was "discovered".
>> Except, he *was* discovered by the Clancy Brothers; it was his version
>> they used.
> I find this hard to believe. The Clancys were singing the song in the
> early 60s and I don't believe there is any way they could have met and
> learnt songs from Walter before that date.
The person who said that on the radio programme was somebody who
occasionally posts here (that's all I remember about him). He wasn't
saying that the Clancys ever met Walter, only that they got hold of
his version somehow.
Graham Holland
>According to the following albums it is trad which means it is copyright
>FREE
Thanks for the advice, and thanks to everyone else who has replied to
this thread. I never thought that it would produce such interest.
Graham
Kevin Sheils
>
> >>>> According to something I heard on the radio not long ago, the version
> >>>> everybody sings nowadays derives from Walter Pardon, and hence would
> >>>> be his copyright, if his estate could figure out any way to collect on
> >>>> it. It isn't PD, just very widely pirated
> >>> Not so. The version most people sing these days derives from a Clancy
> >>> Brothers recording of the mid-60s, long before Walter was "discovered".
> >> Except, he *was* discovered by the Clancy Brothers; it was his version
> >> they used.
> > I find this hard to believe. The Clancys were singing the song in the
> > early 60s and I don't believe there is any way they could have met and
> > learnt songs from Walter before that date.
>
> The person who said that on the radio programme was somebody who
> occasionally posts here (that's all I remember about him). He wasn't
> saying that the Clancys ever met Walter, only that they got hold of
> his version somehow.
There is a version by that other Norfolk singer, Sam Larner on "Singing
the Fishing" which dates from the early sixties on Folkways IIRC. It's a
long time since I've heard it so can't recall how similar Sam's version
is from Walter's. But it's more than likely that the Clancy's would be
aware of Folkways recordings.
--
Kevin Sheils
http://www.btinternet.com/~haleend For Hale End FC and Waltham Forest
Folk Events
http://www.mrscasey.co.uk/ For Sidmouth/Towersey Festivals etc
george...@my-deja.com
za...@enterprise.net wrote:
> In this newsgroup..jlawton@tabbytail.freeserve.co.uk.NOSPAM (Jim
> Lawton) said:
>
> >
> >A subtle and beautiful song. Once you have mastered its delightful
> >complexities you will be feted and congratulated wherever you sing
> >it. ;-)
>
> er... it's not for me, honest. It's for a friend.
>
We heard Tommas Lynch (whose name I'll spell correctly one day, but
probably not today) recently - within the last 12 months - and his
performance was most certainly beautiful and (arguably!) subtle . .
Certainly thoughtful and moving. Well worth listening out for.
IMO most of the "cliche songs" have considerable merits - unfortunately
lost when sung mindlessly by a drunken rabble . . (ok, I could well be
a part of that rabble, I admit!)
G.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jeri Corlew
<di...@dickalba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>But, then again, I am not aware of the Wild Rover being known or
>sung in Ireland pre-Clancy and it's pretty clear that its origin
>is English. Is it possible that they learned it from Luke Kelly?
>Which would provide a link to Bert Lloyd?
>
>That last remark was tongue-in-cheek, incidentally.
I was discussing this thread over the weekend with a good friend who seemed
to believe it was Lou Killen the Clancys got it from. She had spoken to
Lou years ago, who had expressed an opinion on his role in teaching the
song to them, and their subsequent alteration of the chorus to include the
clapping bits.
Chris Beeson
wrote:
> It was Peter Bellamy who first introduced me to Walter at one of
> the old Norwich festivals. It was my first real exposure to
> Norfolk dialect and we spent a couple of hours where I couldn't
> understand a word Walter said and he couldn't understand a word I
> said, with Pete having to act as interpreter. Made for an
> interesting if bizarre conversation.
"Pardon Pardon...."? Sorry, difficult to resist.
Chris Beeson
kevinj.fitzgerald
for yonks. If I see any more posts on this, I will claim to have written
it!
"Jeri Corlew" <jeri...@tds.net> wrote in message
news:nkuprskmksor9fq5l...@4ax.com...