Four Loom Weaver sources
PR MITTON
I was wondering if anyone had a (preferably early) written source for
the song the Four Loom Weaver. (I know it's in Digitrad).
I'm writing an academic paper and its good to give the right
references.
--
Pete Mitton || There's many a dark
Computing Department || And a stormy morning
University of Bradford || Turns out to be
England || A most glorious day
Mick Pearce
PR MITTON wrote in message ...
>
>I was wondering if anyone had a (preferably early) written source for
>the song the Four Loom Weaver. (I know it's in Digitrad).
>
>I'm writing an academic paper and its good to give the right
>references.
As Digitrad states the song was collected By McColl from Becket Whitehead of
Delph near Oldham and is clearly derived from the John Of Greenfield ballads
from after the Napolenic wars. Versions of the Greenfield song from various
ballad publishers are in
A.L. Lloyd 'Folksong In England' (Bebbington, Manchester ca 1860)
R. Palmer 'A Touch On The Times' (Harkness, Preston)
K.Dallas 'Songs Of Toil' (Wheeler, Manchester)
All have tunes derived from versions in F.Kidson & Moffatt 'A Garland Of
English Folk Songs'.
Dallas says there are at least 10 version of JOG in Sharp's ballad
collection.
Hope this is some help.
Regards
Mick
C Stuart Cook
from about 1870. It is part of a series of John O' Greenfield songs and is
in fact called John O' Greenfield Junior. However an earler printing occurs
in Mrs Gaskell's Mary Barton where it is called The Oldham Weaver. If the
"Great Mon" that Margaret wants to see in London is the King then it must
date from before Victoria (1834?)
It would seem to be from a period just after the Napoleonic wars when there
was a collapse in the Cotton industry. As it is a man singing it. the term
"four loom weaver" is totally wrong. A hand loom weaver in the 1820's would
be weaving in upstairs workshops with thread produced by machine in the
local (smallish) spinning mills. Only after the invention of the development
of the steam engine were the weaving sheds added onto the mills. After this
time the looms were worked four at a time, mainly by women. The earlier
versions all say "poor loom weaver". Ewan's source will simply have changed
the words to suit the work as she knew it. That's folk!
Peter Thomas
dcsun4.comp.brad.ac.uk> asked
>
>I was wondering if anyone had a (preferably early) written source for
>the song the Four Loom Weaver. (I know it's in Digitrad).
>
>I'm writing an academic paper and its good to give the right
>references.
There was a long thread on this in uk.rec.sheds - really - accessible
through deja news
EP Thompson - Making of the English Working Class - has a chapter on
weavers and quotes it under another title and source - Harland? - from
1865.
--
Peter Thomas
Peter Thomas
<Pe...@godthoms.demon.co.uk> illuminated the shed with
>
>There was a long thread on this in uk.rec.sheds - really - accessible
>through deja news
>
>EP Thompson - Making of the English Working Class - has a chapter on
>weavers and quotes it under another title and source - Harland? - from
>1865.
Apols, forgot to ask: What does "Waterloo Porridge" or "wayterloo
Porritch" mean?
--
Peter Thomas
Brian Scowcroft
<Pe...@godthoms.demon.co.uk> writes
>Apols, forgot to ask: What does "Waterloo Porridge" or "wayterloo
>Porritch" mean?
>
especially nettles.
--
Brian Scowcroft
PR MITTON
Thanks for all the replies to this posting. It was just the
information I needed. Just goes to show that newsgroups can be a very
useful resource.
Thanks again,
Pete
Charles Page
Brian Scowcroft wrote in message <6wOC1CAK...@scroft.demon.co.uk>...
got a great collection of nettles myself. still looking for a rather
example from 1982. had a look at the annual nettle and thistle meeting in
yeovil this year but no one had one.
regards.
>--
>Brian Scowcroft
Jan Lucas
<cp...@globalnet.co.uk> writes
>
>
>got a great collection of nettles myself. still looking for a rather
>example from 1982. had a look at the annual nettle and thistle meeting in
>yeovil this year but no one had one.
>
nettle of that vintage is very hard to come by.
--
Jan Lucas
Steve Ashton
It is also in "Ballads & Songs of Lancashire, chiefly older than the
19th Century" 1865 coll by John Harland, Whittacker & co where it is
Jone o' Grinfilt Junior.
It was collected from Mr Higson "and was once very popular, from the
singing of an old hand-loom weaver in Droylsden. It was written just
after the Battle of Waterloo, when times were bad and hand-loom weavers'
wages fell from 3 pounds to a guinea or 25s per week i.e for three or
four days' work; for weavers could seldom be induced to "buckle to" on
Monday, Tuesday or often on Wednesday; these days being devoted to
recreations procured with high wages." it says here!
It starts:
Aw'm a poor cotton-wayver.....
An excellent song, which just goes to show that the English suffered
just as much as anyone else at the hands of the bosses and were not
afraid to give them two fingers.
By the way, the next song "Jone 0' Greenfeelt's Ramble in Search of
Th'Green Bag" has the footnote "To those of our readers who are not old
enough to remember the circumstances of the memorable trial of Queen
Caroline, the consort of George IV.,"... Anybody remember that one?
Steve
bogus address
Steve Ashton <stephen...@virgin.net> writes:
> It is also in "Ballads & Songs of Lancashire, chiefly older than the
> By the way, the next song "Jone 0' Greenfeelt's Ramble in Search of
> Th'Green Bag" has the footnote "To those of our readers who are not old
> enough to remember the circumstances of the memorable trial of Queen
> Caroline, the consort of George IV.,"... Anybody remember that one?
Queen Caroline was sorta the Princess Diana of 1820. She fell out with
George IV, who had her put on trial by Parliament. She was considerably
more popular with the British public than George was, and when Parliament
gave the King the finger and acquitted her, there were firework displays
and celebratory riots all over Britain. Glasgow laid on a real doozy,
which might be why George wouldn't visit them when he came to Scotland
two years later.
If it's not too much effort, could you type this in and tell us what the
tune is? There were probably quite a few ballads about this episode,
though the real juicy ones probably weren't printed or preserved. (The
Queen issued an open letter to the public saying she was unfortunately
unable to state the real reasons for the split in public. Perhaps the
guy advertising Viagra here today was on-topic).
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Paul Stevenson
Jan Lucas <j...@jlucas.demon.co.uk> wrote:
You'll have to for a "John" instead.
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Richard Watkinson
by the rhythm of the Dobby Loom and all about the poor situation of the
workers. I have all the words if anyone is interested.
Richard Watkinson
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Jacey Bedford
<rwa...@argonet.co.uk> writes
>I regularly used to sing a song called 'Poverty Knock' apparently inspired
>by the rhythm of the Dobby Loom and all about the poor situation of the
>workers. I have all the words if anyone is interested.
>
copies I found it is a traditional song, but when I asked around, Pete
Coe (who also recorded it) told me that it is thought to have been
written by Tom Sykes Daniel, of Batley. Daniel always claimed to have
"remembered" it. However it is consistent with other things he had
written and there are no records of it from any other sources before he
"remembered" it in (I think) the 1960s.
I usually hear folks sing shortened versions in folk clubs, but the one
we found was a marathon.
Cheers
Jacey
--
Jacey Bedford art...@artifact.demon.co.uk
ARTISAN www.artifact.demon.co.uk
10 Park Head, Birdsedge, Huddersfield, HD8 8XW. UK
Phone UK 01484-606230 Fax UK 01484-606290
Peter Hood
>
>
> I usually hear folks sing shortened versions in folk clubs, but the one
> we found was a marathon.
>
It's a very good version we've been singing it and putting two verses
together to shorten it a bit, the only bit I can't make out is the last
but one verse. The bit that sounds something like "Tuner should tackle
me loom" , am I nearly right?
Peter
Mary Humphreys
later is:
Tuner should tackle me loom
He's far too busy a-courtin' our Lizzie
& I cannot get him to come.
Apologies for the lack of Lancs dialect in my spelling. It if self evident
how it should be sung once the firswt line is sung.
Peter Hood wrote:
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phone 01422 825084
fax as above, by arrangement
email ma...@heddwch.u-net.com
j...@bcs.org.uk
p.h...@virgin.net wrote:
> Jacey Bedford wrote:
> >
> > I usually hear folks sing shortened versions in folk clubs, but the one
> > we found was a marathon.
>
> It's a very good version we've been singing it and putting two verses
> together to shorten it a bit, the only bit I can't make out is the last
> but one verse. The bit that sounds something like "Tuner should tackle
> me loom" , am I nearly right?
No, you're exactly right (apart from a missing glottal stop at the front
to represent "the" which is undetectable at the start of a line anyway);
or perhaps it should be "fettle" instead of "tackle" - I can't remember
what I normally sing, though I think either word will do.
't tuner should tackle my loom
But he'd rather sit on his bum;
He's far too busy a-courtin' our Lizzie,
And I cannot get him to come.
Tuners were responsible for keeping the looms in good order (tackling
or fettling them). They were invariably male and had a reputation for
being lazy and feckless, treating the job as an opportunity to pursue
the female weavers.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Bob Plews
"The tacker (foreman/maintenance geezer) should see to me loom
But I just can't get him to come - he's too bloody busy
Courtin' our Lizzie and rest o'time sits on 'is bum,
"Our Lizzie's so easily led, we think that he takes her to bed
She used to be skinny, now look at her pinny,
We think it's high time they was wed....."
j...@bcs.org.uk wrote in article <78o0ks$msb$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Caller Web Bill
>
> Tuners were responsible for keeping the looms in good order (tackling
> or fettling them). They were invariably male and had a reputation for
> being lazy and feckless, treating the job as an opportunity to pursue
> the female weavers.
Looms were made using fairly primitive manufacturing techniques which
produced quite a variation in part sizes. Loom tuners could balance the
variations in the parts to get a good running machine - hence tuning.
They were probably not paid for the ammount they actually did, but for
knowing how to do it. Thus to a constantly working weaver they would
appear to have a lot of time on their hands. Also their knowledge gave
them a priviledged status which some no doubt abused.
Tuning a car engine is a very similar concept.
HTH
--
Barnacle Bill
Jacey Bedford
writes
>Jacey Bedford wrote:
>>
>>
>
>> I usually hear folks sing shortened versions in folk clubs, but the one
>> we found was a marathon.
>>
> It's a very good version we've been singing it and putting two verses
>together to shorten it a bit, the only bit I can't make out is the last
>but one verse. The bit that sounds something like "Tuner should tackle
>me loom" , am I nearly right?
Yes, you're right.
Looms needed tuning just like cars do.
Ron
>
> In article: <78o0ks$msb$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com> j...@bcs.org.uk writes:
> >
> > Tuners were responsible for keeping the looms in good order (tackling
> > or fettling them). They were invariably male and had a reputation for
> > being lazy and feckless, treating the job as an opportunity to pursue
> > the female weavers.
I know of a currently living tackler who has that reputation for women.
Ron.
Bob Plews
Bob Plews <bobp...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in article
<01be4a67$90dc5bc0$0501...@flea.localnet>...
> And I always thought it went :
> "The tacker (foreman/maintenance geezer) should see to me loom
> But I just can't get him to come - he's too bloody busy
> Courtin' our Lizzie and rest o'time sits on 'is bum,
>
> "Our Lizzie's so easily led, we think that he takes her to bed
> She used to be skinny, now look at her pinny,
> We think it's high time they was wed....."
>
> j...@bcs.org.uk wrote in article <78o0ks$msb$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > In article <36AEE8...@virgin.net>,
> > p.h...@virgin.net wrote:
> > > Jacey Bedford wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I usually hear folks sing shortened versions in folk clubs, but the
> one
> > > > we found was a marathon.
> > >
> > > It's a very good version we've been singing it and putting two
verses
> > > together to shorten it a bit, the only bit I can't make out is the
last
> > > but one verse. The bit that sounds something like "Tuner should
tackle
> > > me loom" , am I nearly right?
> >
> > No, you're exactly right (apart from a missing glottal stop at the
front
> > to represent "the" which is undetectable at the start of a line
anyway);
> > or perhaps it should be "fettle" instead of "tackle" - I can't remember
> > what I normally sing, though I think either word will do.
> >
> > 't tuner should tackle my loom
> > But he'd rather sit on his bum;
> > He's far too busy a-courtin' our Lizzie,
> > And I cannot get him to come.
> >
> > Tuners were responsible for keeping the looms in good order (tackling
> > or fettling them). They were invariably male and had a reputation for
> > being lazy and feckless, treating the job as an opportunity to pursue
> > the female weavers.
> >
> >
Peter Hood
> >me loom" , am I nearly right?
>
> Yes, you're right.
> Looms needed tuning just like cars do.
>
> Jacey
the tuner was dolphin friendly I had some doubts.
Peter
Andy Seagroatt
claimed to have written it and there was a song sheet with it on
attributed to him with, if I remember it rightly, some other
songs he had written.
I have a dim recollection that he played a ukele banjo but I
might be wrong - it was 30 years ago.
Regards
Andy Seagroatt
Newcastle Upon Tyne
Jacey Bedford <Art...@artifact.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <na.dd98f548c8...@argonet.co.uk>, Richard Watkinson
><rwa...@argonet.co.uk> writes
>>I regularly used to sing a song called 'Poverty Knock' apparently inspired
>>by the rhythm of the Dobby Loom and all about the poor situation of the
>>workers. I have all the words if anyone is interested.
>>
>We recorded Poverty Knock some years ago. According to the printed
>copies I found it is a traditional song, but when I asked around, Pete
>Coe (who also recorded it) told me that it is thought to have been
>written by Tom Sykes Daniel, of Batley. Daniel always claimed to have
>"remembered" it. However it is consistent with other things he had
>written and there are no records of it from any other sources before he
>"remembered" it in (I think) the 1960s.
>
>I usually hear folks sing shortened versions in folk clubs, but the one
>we found was a marathon.
>
>Cheers
>
>Jacey
jim lawton
Seagroatt) wrote:
>I saw Tom Daniel do a booking in Leeds probably in 1969 - he
>claimed to have written it and there was a song sheet with it on
>attributed to him with, if I remember it rightly, some other
>songs he had written.
>
>I have a dim recollection that he played a ukele banjo but I
>might be wrong - it was 30 years ago.
>
>Regards
>Andy Seagroatt
>Newcastle Upon Tyne
>
and that is the attribution given in "Victoria's Inferno" by Jon Raven
with the added snippet "collected by A.E.Green 1965, Tom Daniel died
in April 1970 aged 76".
Cheers Jim
Richard Watkinson
Well I didn't expect such a wealth of information. Thinking seriously it
was obvious that someone had written the song not too long ago because it
was supposed to follow the rhythm of the old Dobby Loom. I will be pleased
to ammend my folk book with an "attributed to".
When Sheffield City College Folk Club was held every Friday night at the
Grapes on Trippet Lane I usd to sing this song with the small folk group I
was in called The Wezzels. In those days (early 70's) the college had little
organised entertainment so Friday Folk Club was always well supported.
Poverty Knock was a favourite 'Last Song' partly because of the opportunity
to join in with the chorus, the way I used to start each line of the chorus
with a drawn out Aaargh, Ohhh, or Aaaay, (never predictable) and the black
humour of the song.
The Wezzels (Steve Taggart, Trevor Sommers, Gary Fook, Richard Watkinson)
version had doubled up verses to shorten their ordeal!
So where did we get it from? If memory serves me correctly we heard it sung
by The Ripley Wayfarers, a very popular Derbyshire folk group (fronted by
Mick Peat?) who we would regularly book for our end of term specials.
Next Song Please
Richard
P.Hood
> >
> and that is the attribution given in "Victoria's Inferno" by Jon Raven
> with the added snippet "collected by A.E.Green 1965, Tom Daniel died
> in April 1970 aged 76".
>
a retrospective look at weaving, "collected" would imply that it was an
old song in 1965 but it could have been written in 64 of course. Not
that it really matters but I'm curious, also, what other songs did he
write. He's not another one of those people that everyone knows about
but me is he?
Peter