"Sergeant" William McBride
Bob Plews
writer, Eric Bogle, "No Man's Land". The Furies were the first
to re-title it "The Green Fields of France" and I wonder, given
their treatment of another song (Arragon Mill by Si Kahn), if that
was for copyright purposes.......
William McBride was actually a *private* - at the age of 19, he'd
hardly have made the heady rank of "Sergeant". As another poster
pointed out, there may be some confusion with "Arthur McBride
and the Sergeant" - one of the greatest songs in the tradition,
see, or rather hear, numerous versions from Paul Brady to Martin Carthy,
and no doubt others.
My recollection of how Bogle came to write the song is that he found
himself, on a walking holiday in Flanders, leaning against a gravestone
with Private William McBride's name and epitaph...the words are, minus one
verse that I never found suitable :
Good morning to you, Private William McBride
D'you mind if I sit down by your graveside
And rest for a while in the warm summer sun,
I've been walkin' all day, and I'm nearly done..
Well, I see by your gravestone you were only nineteen
When you joined the fallen in nineteen-sixteen...
Well, William McBride, did you die quick and clean,
Or did death not come easy, was it slow and obscene?
Chorus :
Did they beat the drum slowly, did they play the fifes lowly
Did the rifles fire o'er you, as they lowered you down?
Did the bugles sound the last post and chorus?
Did the pipes play "The Flowers of the Forest".........
The warm sun shines down on the green fields of France,
The soft breeze blows gently and the red poppies dance,
The trenches are vanished, now, under the plough,
No gas, no barbed wire, no guns firing now.....
But here in this graveyard, it's still 'No Man's Land'
And the countless white crosses in mute witness stand
To Man's blind indifference to his fellow man -
And a whole generation all lost to their land......
Chorus : Did they etc
Well, I can't help but wonder, young William McBride,
If the young men who lie here know why they died,
Did they really believe when they told them the cause,
Did they really believe that their war would end wars?
For the sorrow, the suffering, the glory, the shame
And the killing and dying were all done in vain,
For William McBride it all happened again,
And again and again and again and again.........
Chorus : Did they etc
Regards to all
Bob Plews
Dom Cronin
wrote:
<snip>
>My recollection of how Bogle came to write the song is that he found
>himself, on a walking holiday in Flanders, leaning against a gravestone
>with Private William McBride's name and epitaph...the words are, minus one
>verse that I never found suitable :
>
<snip>
The second verse goes:
And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind
In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined
Although you died back in nineteen sixteen
In that faithful heart are you forever nineteen
Or are you a stranger without even a name
Enclosed and forever behind the glass frame
In an old photograph, torn and battered and stained
And faded to yellow in a brown leather frame
Now given that the entire song is a bit on the mawkish side, why would
you choose this verse in particular to miss out?
Oh and I've heard a really good spoof of this song which bemoans the
fact that it's been rather overdone in the past. Anyone know who wrote
it and does anyone have the lyric?
--
Dom Cronin
London - UK
Jonathan Hill
Mudcat database. Jonathan.
Dom Cronin wrote in message <36697049...@news.ftech.net>...
>On 4 Dec 1998 21:37:41 GMT, "Bob Plews" <bobp...@dial.pipex.com>
>wrote:>
Wendy Grossman
(Dom Cronin) wrote:
> On 4 Dec 1998 21:37:41 GMT, "Bob Plews" <bobp...@dial.pipex.com>
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >My recollection of how Bogle came to write the song is that he found
> >himself, on a walking holiday in Flanders, leaning against a gravestone
> >with Private William McBride's name and epitaph...the words are, minus
> one
> >verse that I never found suitable :
> >
> <snip>
>
> The second verse goes:
>
> And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind
> In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined
> Although you died back in nineteen sixteen
> In that faithful heart are you forever nineteen
> Or are you a stranger without even a name
> Enclosed and forever behind the glass frame
> In an old photograph, torn and battered and stained
> And faded to yellow in a brown leather frame
>
> Now given that the entire song is a bit on the mawkish side, why would
> you choose this verse in particular to miss out?
>
Yes: I was wondering what on earth "suitable" meant in this context?
wg
Bob Plews
Dom Cronin <dom...@MySurname.co.uk> wrote in article
<36697049...@news.ftech.net>...
> On 4 Dec 1998 21:37:41 GMT, "Bob Plews" <bobp...@dial.pipex.com>
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >My recollection of how Bogle came to write the song is that he found
> >himself, on a walking holiday in Flanders, leaning against a gravestone
> >with Private William McBride's name and epitaph...the words are, minus
one
> >verse that I never found suitable :
> >
> <snip>
>
> The second verse goes:
>
> And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind
> In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined
> Although you died back in nineteen sixteen
> In that faithful heart are you forever nineteen
> Or are you a stranger without even a name
> Enclosed and forever behind the glass frame
> In an old photograph, torn and battered and stained
> And faded to yellow in a brown leather frame
>
> Now given that the entire song is a bit on the mawkish side, why would
> you choose this verse in particular to miss out?
>
>> Because I thought the verse above *was* sentimentalised and
a touch too speculative. It felt to me like a writer getting
a little carried away..
I disagree with your view that the whole song is "on the mawkish side"
- I think the other verses contain some great lines and images and I
think
the chorus is a classic of its kind. I equate "mawkishness" with
insincerity
and shallow sentimentality, and I think your description does
less than justice to Bogle's song.
And, BTW, it's not Bogle's fault that his material gets murdered
by lousy singers to the extent that nobody who's any good wants to
do a particular song any more 'cos it's tainted and done to death by
people who ought to get their therapy somewhere else, rather than in
a "folk club" - many folk club organisers will recognise the syndrome...
Best Wishes to all
Bob Plews
odd...@my-dejanews.com
"Bob Plews" <bobp...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:<snip>
... shome mishtake? ...
> But here in this graveyard, it's still 'No Man's Land'
> And the countless white crosses in mute witness stand
> To Man's blind indifference to his fellow man -
> And a whole generation all lost to their land......
shurely "And a whole generation who were butchered and damned"
;O)
PS You can tell singers who learned this via the Furies (or cheap 'songs of
ireland' lyric books) because they always have "countless white crosses stand
mute in the sand". >Ahh< the folk-process in action!
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Dom Cronin
>
>PS You can tell singers who learned this via the Furies (or cheap 'songs of
>ireland' lyric books) because they always have "countless white crosses stand
>mute in the sand". >Ahh< the folk-process in action!
>
Hey!!
I learnt some of my best songs from cheap 'Songs of Ireland' books!!!
Gerry Milne
<dom...@MySurname.co.uk> writes
That explains a lot! ;-)
--
Gerry Milne
Dom Cronin
Actually - that was a typographical error - what I *meant* to say was
that I most of my songs from my grandad - who was a famous folksong
collector in a long line of traditional singers. I have to admit that
I got one or two from this old gypsy that used to come by now and
then, although usually I try to keep that quiet!!!
Cuh - silly you eh - fancy thinking that I could have *meant* it!!
Tom Morgan
<dom...@MySurname.co.uk> writes
>On 4 Dec 1998 21:37:41 GMT, "Bob Plews" <bobp...@dial.pipex.com>
>wrote:
>
><snip>
>>My recollection of how Bogle came to write the song is that he found
>>himself, on a walking holiday in Flanders, leaning against a gravestone
>>with Private William McBride's name and epitaph...the words are, minus one
>>verse that I never found suitable :
There were about 10 men called Pte. W. McBride killed in the Great War.
None is buried in Flanders. The others are buried in France but none of
them has the age 19 on his gravestone!
Tom
--
Tom Morgan - ICQ No. 8871207
Hellfire Corner Great War Pages © :
http://www.fylde.demon.co.uk/welcome.htm
RESURGAM
Bob Plews
"Wendy Grossman" <wen...@cix.compulink.co.uk> wrote in article
<F3Kwo...@cix.compulink.co.uk>...
> In article <36697049...@news.ftech.net>, dom...@MySurname.co.uk
> (Dom Cronin) wrote:
>
> > On 4 Dec 1998 21:37:41 GMT, "Bob Plews" <bobp...@dial.pipex.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> My recollection of how Bogle came to write the song...the words are,
minus
one verse that I never found suitable :
> > The second verse goes:
> >
> > And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind
> > In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined
> > Although you died back in nineteen sixteen
> > In that faithful heart are you forever nineteen
> > Or are you a stranger without even a name
> > Enclosed and forever behind the glass frame
> > In an old photograph, torn and battered and stained
> > And faded to yellow in a brown leather frame
> Yes: I was wondering what on earth "suitable" meant in this context?
It meant, as I said in my posting, that this verse made the song worse - it
was too speculative and sentimentalised and if you listen to, or consider,
the verses that remained, you would see why.
The other verses are factual, or, if you like, objective, - this one is
self indulgent on the
writer's part. The rest of the song is a great piece of writing.
Regards to all
Bob Plews
> wg
>
Bob Plews
odd...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article
<74gi0n$ckj$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> In article <01be1fcb$fba26a60$0501...@flea.localnet>,
> "Bob Plews" <bobp...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:<snip>
>
> ... shome mishtake? ...
>
> > But here in this graveyard, it's still 'No Man's Land'
> > And the countless white crosses in mute witness stand
> > To Man's blind indifference to his fellow man -
> > And a whole generation all lost to their land......
>
> shurely "And a whole generation who were butchered and damned"
>
> I'm sure you're right - I was never too convinced of the words
I was given or thought I heard. Thanks for what seems like a
definitive end to that verse-makes more sense than my version
Bob Plews
>
> PS You can tell singers who learned this via the Furies (or cheap 'songs
of
> ireland' lyric books) because they always have "countless white crosses
stand
> mute in the sand". >Ahh< the folk-process in action!
yeah, lacking a lot occasionally - it's the "Fureys" , BTW
Jeri Corlew
>In article <36697049...@news.ftech.net>, Dom Cronin
><dom...@MySurname.co.uk> writes
>>On 4 Dec 1998 21:37:41 GMT, "Bob Plews" <bobp...@dial.pipex.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>>My recollection of how Bogle came to write the song is that he found
>>>himself, on a walking holiday in Flanders, leaning against a gravestone
>>>with Private William McBride's name and epitaph...the words are, minus one
>>>verse that I never found suitable :
>As a point of only trivial interest -
>
>There were about 10 men called Pte. W. McBride killed in the Great War.
>
>None is buried in Flanders. The others are buried in France but none of
>them has the age 19 on his gravestone!
This may be silly, but I have Bogle's "Now I'm Easy" album which did not come
with lyrics. Does anyone know for sure it's not "MacBride?"
--
Jeri Corlew
---== http://www.newsfeeds.com - Largest Usenet Server In The World! ==---
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George Hawes
>> > The second verse goes:
>> >
>> > And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind
>> > In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined
>> > Although you died back in nineteen sixteen
>> > In that faithful heart are you forever nineteen
>> > Or are you a stranger without even a name
>> > Enclosed and forever behind the glass frame
>> > In an old photograph, torn and battered and stained
>> > And faded to yellow in a brown leather frame
>
>> Yes: I was wondering what on earth "suitable" meant in this context?
>It meant, as I said in my posting, that this verse made the song worse - it
>was too speculative and sentimentalised and if you listen to, or consider,
>the verses that remained, you would see why.
Sorry, I disagree entirely. I find this verse increases the
effectiveness of the song as it 'personalises' the anonymous
corpse.
>The other verses are factual, or, if you like, objective, - this one is
>self indulgent on the writer's part.
It is neither more nor less 'factual' than any of the rest of
the song. IMO, of course.
While I respect your right to choose not to sing a verse of the
song (and, indeed, to argue against including a part of the
song) it strikes me as discourteous to the author to edit out
one of his verse from the words you posted.
Changing the subject slightly; this thread prompted me to listen
to a song of similar vein . . Harvey Andrew's "Hello Hans"
(which I have on Tony Capstick's first LP). I don't claim it's
AS great a song as Bogle's, but it's still fine [#1], and I fail
to understand why no-one sings it. It has always struck me that
there are parallels in how the two songs handle their material,
making them both strong anti-war song without any explicit
detail of the horrors of war.
George
#1] Somehow I imagine Hello Hans would be even less to Bob's
taste . .
odd...@my-dejanews.com
Gerry Milne <ge...@grove-cottage.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <366be25c...@news.ftech.net>, Dom Cronin
> <dom...@MySurname.co.uk> writes
> >>ireland' lyric books) because they always have "countless white crosses
stand
> >>mute in the sand". >Ahh< the folk-process in action!
> >>
> >
> >I learnt some of my best songs from cheap 'Songs of Ireland' books!!!
> >
> >--
> >Dom Cronin
> >London - UK
>
> That explains a lot! ;-)
> --
> Gerry Milne
Hey hey, so did I! (learnt some of my best songs from cheap 'Songs of Ireland'
books!!!) - although the "Marrowbones" series were better (and *english*)
On that subject-ish, why is the tune "The Irish Washerwoman" called that? If
twere a true Irish tune, shurely it would be called "The Washerwoman"?
;O)
OB
bogus address
odd...@my-dejanews.com writes:
> On that subject-ish, why is the tune "The Irish Washerwoman" called
> that? If twere a true Irish tune, shurely it would be called "The
> Washerwoman"?
Probably a few decades of garblndshjdbqwxification. It seems to be
derived from "The Stool of Repentance", which was first written down
in Scotland in the third quarter of the 18th century (though there is
an earlier 4/4 tune resembling it called "The Repenting Stool" from
a manuscript of the 1720s). Then you find the modern tune as "The
Irish Waterman", or (I think) just "The Waterman", in Scottish sources
around the 1780s.
Just what the heck this meant is anybody's guess, since Lowland Scots
editors often said "Irish" (or "Erse", or even "Earish") when they
meant Scots Gaelic, and a "waterman" could be either (1) someone who
carried water from public wells to sell it around town, or (2) someone
who worked the pumps in a coalmine, or (3) a boatman.
Watermen(1) were the sort of occupation that immigrant Highlanders
usually ended up in when they arrived in Edinburgh in the 18th century,
so I'd guess that's the most likely. They found themselves out of a
job when domestic water supplies took over early in the 19th century,
and I'd guess that's when the modern title came in, as nobody could
remember what a waterman was any more. There's a remote chance that
the tune incorporates a water-seller's street cry, but I haven't come
across any mention of such a cry being used.
I don't have a copy of Charlie Gore's _Scottish Fiddle Music Index_ handy,
but that should give the dates required to check if all this speculation
makes sense.
But, there are a whole stack of tunes which have the nationality of the
country that originated them as part of the title. My favourite is "The
Scots Wriggle" (a 9/8 jig from Oswald's _Caledonian Pocket Companion_).
Dunno if the Wrigley Sisters have that in their repertoire yet.
---> email to "jc" at this site: email to "jack" or "bogus" will bounce <---
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
Tom Morgan
<jer...@delanet.com> writes>>In article <36697049...@news.ftech.net>, Dom Cronin
>><dom...@MySurname.co.uk> writes
>>>On 4 Dec 1998 21:37:41 GMT, "Bob Plews" <bobp...@dial.pipex.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>>My recollection of how Bogle came to write the song is that he found
>>>>himself, on a walking holiday in Flanders, leaning against a gravestone
>>>>with Private William McBride's name and epitaph...the words are, minus one
>>>>verse that I never found suitable :
>>As a point of only trivial interest -
>>
>>There were about 10 men called Pte. W. McBride killed in the Great War.
>>
>>None is buried in Flanders. The others are buried in France but none of
>>them has the age 19 on his gravestone!
>
>This may be silly, but I have Bogle's "Now I'm Easy" album which did not come
>with lyrics. Does anyone know for sure it's not "MacBride?"
>
killed in the first World War and only one of them was a private and his
name wasn't William.
Bob Plews
George Hawes <George...@i-cubed.co.uk> wrote in article
<74lma2$tnc$1...@shiny.i-cubed.co.uk>...
> "Bob Plews" <bobp...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>
> >> > The second verse goes:
> >> >
> >> > And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind
> >> > In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined
> >> > Although you died back in nineteen sixteen
> >> > In that faithful heart are you forever nineteen
> >> > Or are you a stranger without even a name
> >> > Enclosed and forever behind the glass frame
> >> > In an old photograph, torn and battered and stained
> >> > And faded to yellow in a brown leather frame
>
> >
> >> Yes: I was wondering what on earth "suitable" meant in this context?
>
> >It meant, as I said in my posting, that this verse made the song worse -
it
> >was too speculative and sentimentalised and if you listen to, or
consider,
> >the verses that remained, you would see why.
>
> Sorry, I disagree entirely. I find this verse increases the
> effectiveness of the song as it 'personalises' the anonymous
> corpse.
I don't think this is the writer's job. He's seen a tombstone (apparently!)
and written a great song based on what he's seen. To speculate about
William
McBride's circumstances is, IMHO, to risk writing a verse that may seem
like a bit of a good idea at the time, but may be way wide of the mark.
Who on earth *knows* if he had a wife, mother, sweetheart, etc.
There are even postings now that suggest that the William McBride in
the song never existed!
>
> >The other verses are factual, or, if you like, objective, - this one is
> >self indulgent on the writer's part.
>
> It is neither more nor less 'factual' than any of the rest of
> the song. IMO, of course.
Nonsense! See above
>
> While I respect your right to choose not to sing a verse of the
> song (and, indeed, to argue against including a part of the
> song) it strikes me as discourteous to the author to edit out
> one of his verse from the words you posted.
I haven't actually *sung* the song since about 1986, I only responded to
this posting
because someone asked for the words! And as a performer who, unlike many,
actually *knows"
where his songs come from and always credits them, ever since Alex Campbell
gave me the most almighty bollocking about 1978, I won't be accused of
discourtesy by anyone.
Bob
George Hawes
>> Sorry, I disagree entirely. I find this verse increases the
>> effectiveness of the song as it 'personalises' the anonymous
>> corpse.
>I don't think this is the writer's job.
Fair enough; as I noted before we simply disagree . .
>Who on earth *knows* if he had a wife, mother, sweetheart, etc.
Well the odds on his having a mother are pretty favorable . .
McBride is a representative figure; in any case of course he may
have had a wife or sweetheart (the song does say "Did you . . ?)
>There are even postings now that suggest that the William McBride in
>the song never existed!
Of course he never existed.
The point the sleeve notes of "We died in hell . . " make is
that despite the fact that McBride was an invented name, the
scale of the slaughter was such that there are close matches to
the name.
>> It is neither more nor less 'factual' than any of the rest of
>> the song. IMO, of course.
>
> Nonsense! See above
Nothing in what you wrote changes my view.
>> While I respect your right to choose not to sing a verse of the
>> song (and, indeed, to argue against including a part of the
>> song) it strikes me as discourteous to the author to edit out
>> one of his verse from the words you posted.
>as a performer who actually *knows" where his songs come from
>and always credits them I won't be accused of
>discourtesy by anyone.
I have so accused you and I stand by that accusation, for the
reasons already given. I'm not suggesting it's any big deal, or
a gross discourtesy; nor do I wish to cause you any offence, but
I still find it distinctly 'off'. You made your choice of which
of Bogle's words to sing, you should allow others the same
opportunity.
Regards,
George
Nigel Gatherer
> I don't have a copy of Charlie Gore's _Scottish Fiddle Music Index_
> handy, but that should give the dates required...
Earliest PUBLISHED sources (according to Gore):
Irish Waterman - Thomas Skillern's Compleat Collection of Dances (c1780)
Irish Washerwoman - Charles Duff, Collection... (1792); Gow's Third
Collection (1792)
The Stool of Repentance - Gale's Pocket Companion (c1800)
"The Stool of Repentance" also appeared in William Dixon's manuscript
(1734). Matt Seattle, who has published the tunes from that MS says that
"...the tune itself was known earlier in the 18th century and appears in
English printed collections under the title "Border Reel"...".
Curiouser and curiouser...
--
Nigel Gatherer, Edinburgh
gath...@argonet.co.uk
odd...@my-dejanews.com
"Bob Plews" <bobp...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
<snip> ... always credits them, ever since Alex Campbell
> gave me the most almighty bollocking about 1978, I won't be accused of
> discourtesy by anyone.
-- what for? I've had some similar bollockings. Soemtimes its hard to find
out who wrote stuff that gets passed on orally. 'Bring us a Barrel' being
myfavourite example - almost never has the right credits (whoops! I've
forgotten who wrote it too).
Perhaps my favourite bollocking was from Nic Jones for carrying my Guitar to
the Folk Club in the rain is a plastic bag (i.e. without a proper case). He
did relent later when he found out how skint we all were tho.
Perhaps we could start a 'best bollocking' thread?
Nigel & Nancy Sellars
Dargason." (Holst used this in his "St. Paul Suite" and Swarbrick plays
a fine version on (IIRC) "Lift the Lid and Listen.") Could we have then
a tune -- which Nigel Gatherer also notes is called the "Border Reel" --
which migrated from England to the Borders and was then picked up and
adapted by Scottish musicians and then somehow acquired the
"Washerwoman" moniker ( possible as a mishearing of "Waterman) and now
everyone thinks it's Irish but it isn't? (And I won't even mention the
song "MacTavish" that uses it as an air.)
Nigel Sellars
ETC Graphics
> Could we have then a tune...which migrated from England to the Borders
> and was then picked up and adapted by Scottish musicians and then
> somehow acquired the "Washerwoman" moniker...and now everyone thinks
> it's Irish but it isn't?
LOL. It's perfectly possible! I'm sure that there are several tunes which
have done the rounds. I'm sure we could find songs and tunes which came
from Scotland (or England, or Wales) which have travelled the Atlantic
only to be sung/played in the UK now as American.
> (And I won't even mention the song "MacTavish" that uses [The Irish
> Washerwoman] as an air.)
Gosh, I'd forgotten about that one! How does it go?
MacTavish is dead and his brother don't know it
His brother is dead and MacTavish don't know it
Both of them dead and in the same bed
And neither one knows that the other is dead
Roger Gawley
On Thu, 10 Dec 1998, ETC Graphics wrote:
>
> LOL. It's perfectly possible! I'm sure that there are several tunes which
> have done the rounds. I'm sure we could find songs and tunes which came
> from Scotland (or England, or Wales) which have travelled the Atlantic
> only to be sung/played in the UK now as American.
There was a radio series about this very effect a few years back. I may
even have a tape of one programme. Will look. Roger
[Miner's Lifeguard: does that qualify?]
Bill
<gath...@argonet.co.uk> writes:
>
> The Stool of Repentance
Sounds like the morning after a hot curry (:-)>
Sorry I couldn't resist it.
--
Barnacle Bill
j...@bcs.org.uk
odd...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Soemtimes its hard to find
> out who wrote stuff that gets passed on orally. 'Bring us a Barrel' being
> myfavourite example - almost never has the right credits (whoops! I've
> forgotten who wrote it too).
As is right and proper, in my opinion. I've always felt that one of
the best tests of whether or not a song has a chance of becoming a
traditional folk song is whether or not it's authorship "matters".
If everyone accepts it as a good song, and doesn't much know or care
who wrote it, it has a good chance; if everyone thinks of it as 'a
song written by x', it's likely to stay that way instead of becoming
community property.
Particularly true in this case since the author spent the first few
years of its existence denying that he wrote it!
David Harley
: >> song (and, indeed, to argue against including a part of the
: >> song) it strikes me as discourteous to the author to edit out
: >> one of his verse from the words you posted.
: >as a performer who actually *knows" where his songs come from
: >and always credits them I won't be accused of
: >discourtesy by anyone.
: I have so accused you and I stand by that accusation, for the
: reasons already given. I'm not suggesting it's any big deal, or
: a gross discourtesy; nor do I wish to cause you any offence, but
: I still find it distinctly 'off'. You made your choice of which
: of Bogle's words to sing, you should allow others the same
: opportunity.
I'm afraid I have to agree with George. Your opinion on whether
that verse works is as valid as anyone else's, but censorship
on aesthetic grounds is discourteous both to the the composer
and to the person who asked for the lyric. Probably not in the
same league as failing to credit, but not exactly polite.
--
David Harley
D_Ha...@iname.com
http://webworlds.co.uk/dharley/
"Opinions are free: advice is free: consultancy costs...."
Bob Plews
George Hawes <George...@i-cubed.co.uk> wrote in article
<74o6qt$ocm$1...@shiny.i-cubed.co.uk>...
> "Bob Plews" <bobp...@dial.pipex.com
>
> >There are even postings now that suggest that the William McBride in
> >the song never existed!
>
> Of course he never existed.
> The point the sleeve notes of "We died in hell . . " make is
> that despite the fact that McBride was an invented name
>
> This changes my whole perspective on the song! Why "of course"?
How was I to know that William McBride was an invented name?
I just listen to what performers and writers told me and assume
they're probably telling me the truth - shame on the lot of them.
>
> >> While I respect your right to choose not to sing a verse of the
> >> song (and, indeed, to argue against including a part of the
> >> song) it strikes me as discourteous to the author to edit out
> >> one of his verse from the words you posted.
So, there's a *difference*, courtesy-wise, between choosing not
to sing a particular verse of a song in public (OK) and not posting
that verse to this newsgroup (impolite)?? If that's the argument
you can shove it!
>
> I have so accused you and I stand by that accusation, for the
> reasons already given. I'm not suggesting it's any big deal, or
> a gross discourtesy; nor do I wish to cause you any offence, but
> I still find it distinctly 'off'. You made your choice of which
> of Bogle's words to sing, you should allow others the same
> opportunity.
> The distinction between "distinctly off" and a discourtesy, gross or
otherwise, escapes me. I merely responded to a request for words and
could have made out I didn't know there *was* another verse.
I'll know better in future.
Bob Plews
PS. Could I have more information about "Hello, Hans"? I seem to have
missed
this reference. Thanks very much.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
Bob Plews
odd...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article
<74ohso$882$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> In article <01be23d9$8c396680$0501...@flea.localnet>,
> "Bob Plews" <bobp...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> <snip> ... always credits them, ever since Alex Campbell
> > gave me the most almighty bollocking about 1978, I won't be accused of
> > discourtesy by anyone.
>
> -- what for?
For singing Lord of the Dance to a packed folk club and assuming
everyone in the world knew it was written by Sidney Carter.
>
> Perhaps we could start a 'best bollocking' thread?
>
> OB
>
Bob Plews
David Harley <har...@europa.lif.icnet.uk> wrote in article
<74rsbb$l47$1...@bliss.lif.icnet.uk>...
> : >> While I respect your right to choose not to sing a verse of the
> : >> song (and, indeed, to argue against including a part of the
> : >> song) it strikes me as discourteous to the author to edit out
> : >> one of his verse from the words you posted.
>
Bob Plews
David Harley <har...@europa.lif.icnet.uk> wrote in article
<74rsbb$l47$1...@bliss.lif.icnet.uk>...
> : >> While I respect your right to choose not to sing a verse of the
> : >> song (and, indeed, to argue against including a part of the
> : >> song) it strikes me as discourteous to the author to edit out
> : >> one of his verse from the words you posted.
>
> : >as a performer who actually *knows" where his songs come from
> : >and always credits them I won't be accused of
> : >discourtesy by anyone.
>
> : I have so accused you and I stand by that accusation, for the
> : reasons already given.
>
> I'm afraid I have to agree with George. Your opinion on whether
> that verse works is as valid as anyone else's, but censorship
> on aesthetic grounds is discourteous both to the the composer
> and to the person who asked for the lyric. Probably not in the
> same league as failing to credit, but not exactly polite.
I'm not censoring *anything*. The person who requested the lyric
has now got the lot of it!! I'm not an arbiter of what gets posted
here - I just sent what I sent and explained that I didn't like a
particular verse of the song, and have since explained why.Since I'd
never sung the verse, I didn't recall it anyway. Saying so makes me
honest - I could have said I'd forgotten it.
With respect, you're talking nonsense.
Performers amend, delete and add things to songs, whether odd lines
or whole verses. (See no end of Martin Carthy's work).
And don't be "afraid" to agree with George - it's sometimes inadvisable,
but nothing to be afraid of.
Bob Plews
George Hawes
> So, there's a *difference*, courtesy-wise, between choosing not
> to sing a particular verse of a song in public (OK) and not posting
> that verse to this newsgroup (impolite)??
Yes, in this case. Had you waited a couple of days to see if
anyone else had posted the words in full then, fair enough for
you to post saying "This is the song as I sing it - I leave out
verse x 'cause I don't like it, and really can't be sure of its
words so I've not included them". Unfortunately that's not what
you did.
IMO, of course.
G.
> PS. Could I have more information about "Hello, Hans"? I seem to have
>missed this reference. Thanks very much.
I have to say I doubt whether you'll like it (sorry) but I'll
try to transcribe the words over the weekend; please feel free
to email me a reminder if writing Christmas cards gets in the
way!
G.
Bob Plews
> "Bob Plews" <bobp...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> > So, there's a *difference*, courtesy-wise, between choosing not
> > to sing a particular verse of a song in public (OK) and not posting
> > that verse to this newsgroup (impolite)??
>
> Yes, in this case. Had you waited a couple of days to see if
> I'm still not sure I understand your argument, but what the hell?!
I apologise to Mr Bogle and his fans for any slight...
>
>
> > PS. Could I have more information about "Hello, Hans"? I seem to have
> >missed this reference. Thanks very much.
>
> I have to say I doubt whether you'll like it (sorry).....
>
> Now I'm even *more* intrigued! Try me - I'm actually a very broad-minded
individual who is not at all as stroppy and opinionated as may sometimes
seem to be the case - ask anyone who knows me!!
I wish *everyone* on this ng a peaceful and healthy 1999, and let's hope
the music we all enjoy gets a better deal in all the media.
Bob
>
>
Bob Plews
Bob Plews <bobp...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in article
<01be2a26$854a1060$0501...@flea.localnet>...
> George Hawes <George...@i-cubed.co.uk> wrote in article
> <75aj9i$1le$1...@shiny.i-cubed.co.uk>...
> > "Bob Plews" <bobp...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> >
> > > So, there's a *difference*, courtesy-wise, between choosing not
> > > to sing a particular verse of a song in public (OK) and not
posting
> > > that verse to this newsgroup (impolite)??
> >
> > Yes, in this case. Had you waited a couple of days to see if
> > anyone else had posted the words in full then...
>
> > I'm still not sure I understand your argument, but what the hell?!
> I apologise to Mr Bogle and his fans for any slight...
> >
> >
> > > PS. Could I have more information about "Hello, Hans"? I seem to
have
> > >missed this reference. Thanks very much.
> >
> > I have to say I doubt whether you'll like it (sorry).....
> >
> > Now I'm even *more* intrigued! Try me - I'm actually a very
broad-minded
> individual
Bob Plews
David Harley
: > I'm not censoring *anything*. The person who requested the lyric
: > has now got the lot of it!! I'm not an arbiter of what gets posted
: > here - I just sent what I sent and explained that I didn't like a
: > particular verse of the song, and have since explained why.Since I'd
: > never sung the verse, I didn't recall it anyway. Saying so makes me
: > honest - I could have said I'd forgotten it.
That message is no longer on my server, but I don't think you said
that you didn't recall the verse because you'd never sung it because
you don't care for it. Had that been clear, I wouldn't have any problem
with your posting. Perhaps this was due to my misreading of your posting,
in which case I apologise.
: > With respect, you're talking nonsense.
Oh dear. When people start a sentence with "With respect..." they
usually mean the opposite.....
: > Performers amend, delete and add things to songs, whether odd lines
: > or whole verses. (See no end of Martin Carthy's work).
Of course we do. That's a different issue. My understanding was that
you contributed an incomplete version because you didn't like one verse,
even though you could have contributed it, which I seem to recall was
also George's objection. If you didn't contribute the missing verse
because you didn't know it, that's another thing. Indeed, if you'd
contributed 'your' version because that was what was specifically
asked for, rather than the 'generic' version, that would also have been
another thing (though under those circumstances I usually give the
original version (if I have it) and point out where and what the
customizations are).
: > And don't be "afraid" to agree with George - it's sometimes
: > inadvisable, but nothing to be afraid of.
Oh dear. There's no need for that.
Bob Plews
David Harley <har...@europa.lif.icnet.uk> wrote in article
<75tgtr$hq7$2...@bliss.lif.icnet.uk>...
> Bob Plews (bobp...@dial.pipex.com) wrote:
>
>
> : > I'm not censoring *anything*. The person who requested the lyric
> : > has now got the lot of it!! I'm not an arbiter of what gets posted
> : > here - I just sent what I sent and explained that I didn't like a
> : > particular verse of the song, and have since explained why.Since
I'd
> : > never sung the verse, I didn't recall it anyway. Saying so makes me
> : > honest - I could have said I'd forgotten it.
>
> That message is no longer on my server, but I don't think you said
> that you didn't recall the verse because you'd never sung it because
> you don't care for it.
I think my general drift was that I heard the song, learned it and decided
not to sing the verse in question. That's *my* decision. When the words
were requested I posted what I knew and pointed out there was another verse
that I didn't like. That's being honest. I've already said why I didn't
think
the verse fitted
>
> : > With respect, you're talking nonsense.
>
> Oh dear. When people start a sentence with "With respect..." they
> usually mean the opposite.....
>> You must spend too much time with politicians or pedants.
I actually *did* mean that I respect your point but disagree..
No *dis*respect was intended. (For Christ's sake!!)
>
> : > Performers amend, delete and add things to songs, whether odd lines
> : > or whole verses. (See no end of Martin Carthy's work).
>
> Of course we do. That's a different issue. My understanding was that
> you contributed an incomplete version because you didn't like one verse,
> even though you could have contributed it, which I seem to recall was
> also George's objection. If you didn't contribute the missing verse
> because you didn't know it, that's another thing. Indeed, if you'd
> contributed 'your' version because that was what was specifically
> asked for, rather than the 'generic' version, that would also have been
> another thing (though under those circumstances I usually give the
> original version (if I have it) and point out where and what the
> customizations are).
> OK - just so we're completely clear - I posted what I knew, pointed out
there was
a verse I hadn't posted and said why, expanded it further in later
postings and
the original request has been met. End of story, shurely??
>
> : > And don't be "afraid" to agree with George - it's sometimes
> : > inadvisable, but nothing to be afraid of.
>
> Oh dear. There's no need for that.
>> I hope your sense of humour bypass operation was successful
Bob Plews