Alert: Tonight BBC4 21:00 Bellowhead, Unthanks
Java Jive
MUSIC: BBC Four Christmas Session
On: BBC 4
Date: Thursday 17th December 2009 (starting in 2 hours and 13 minutes)
Time: 21:00 to 22:00 (1 hour long)
Fire and Ice.
BBC Four celebrates midwinter with a blend of folk tradition and
burlesque fun. Bellowhead and The Unthanks get together with singers
Thea Gilmore and Lisa Knapp, plus other guests, to perform seasonal
songs of their own alongside yuletide favourites. There are folk
ballads, carols, parlour songs and carousing dance numbers, with
everyone coming together for a final knees-up. Filmed at Shoreditch
Town Hall, the setting evokes an old music hall combined with a
festive Victorian family parlour.
(Editor's Choice, Stereo, Widescreen, Subtitles)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Excerpt taken from DigiGuide - the world's best TV guide available
from http://www.getdigiguide.com/?p=1&r=2105
Copyright (c) GipsyMedia Limited.
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Arthur Marshall
from Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> contains these words:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> MUSIC: BBC Four Christmas Session
> On: BBC 4
> Date: Thursday 17th December 2009 (starting in 2 hours and 13 minutes)
> Time: 21:00 to 22:00 (1 hour long)
> Fire and Ice.
> BBC Four celebrates midwinter with a blend of folk tradition and
> burlesque fun. Bellowhead and The Unthanks get together with singers
> Thea Gilmore and Lisa Knapp, plus other guests, to perform seasonal
> songs of their own alongside yuletide favourites. There are folk
> ballads, carols, parlour songs and carousing dance numbers, with
> everyone coming together for a final knees-up. Filmed at Shoreditch
> Town Hall, the setting evokes an old music hall combined with a
> festive Victorian family parlour.
Just watched it, admittedly with the sound turned off every now and then
- a dire version of In the Bleak Midwinter by the appalling Unthanks,
who made it somewhat bleaker than usual by slowing it down to funereal
pace and then singing it out of tune... I've not seen them live, but
they do appear to be preparing themselves for the UK Olympics to twee
for Britain.
I shall say nothing of Lisa Knapp except thank God for the mute
button... they obviously only let Thea Gilmore do one song on the
grounds she could a) sing and b) write a decent song...
Bellowhead were pretty good (just to show I do actually like some of
this folk stuff) but as for the twit who sang Emmanuel...
Folk music has not been well served by the BBC over the past year or two.
Oh well. Jaundiced folkie goes back to earning his living with his new
fiddle. Thank god for the pubs and places where they sing. Probably
tomorrow's ceilidh, too.
--
Arthur Marshall
News
news:3130303032353...@zetnet.co.uk...
Connie and I just watched it too. I couldn't have summed it up better
myself! Indeed much of what you said was being said here in less
repeatable terms during the "performances".
Let's hope for better in 2010.
Cheers
Guy
--
Guy Morgan
First Light Services
nb Virgo, WFB, Stockton, GU
Molly Mockford
wrote in <3130303032353...@zetnet.co.uk>:
>Just watched it, admittedly with the sound turned off every now and then
>- a dire version of In the Bleak Midwinter by the appalling Unthanks,
>who made it somewhat bleaker than usual by slowing it down to funereal
>pace and then singing it out of tune... I've not seen them live, but
>they do appear to be preparing themselves for the UK Olympics to twee
>for Britain.
Agreed. On that showing, I wouldn't go into the next room to hear the
Unthanks. In fact, I would probably cross town to avoid them.
>Bellowhead were pretty good (just to show I do actually like some of
>this folk stuff)
And Sam Lee - stepping in for the voiceless John Spiers - was, as
always, excellent. I've been watching him for two or three years now,
and he gets better every single time I hear him.
>but as for the twit who sang Emmanuel...
Jim Moray. Yes.
It seems that some people just don't realise that it takes a *lot* of
breath control and voice control to sing slowly without sounding like a
dirge. Belshazzar's Feast, by contrast, kept their songs up-tempo, and
sounded all the better for it. I enjoyed them, Bellowhead and Sam Lee;
the rest could have stayed at home as far as I'm concerned.
YMMV.
--
Molly Mockford
Nature loves variety. Unfortunately, society hates it. (Milton Diamond Ph.D.)
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)
Bernard Peek
> Just watched it, admittedly with the sound turned off every now and then
> - a dire version of In the Bleak Midwinter by the appalling Unthanks,
> who made it somewhat bleaker than usual by slowing it down to funereal
> pace and then singing it out of tune...
I suspect that the programme will confirm a lot of people's assumptions
about folk music, it didn't do us any favours. I suspect that Anni
Fentiman could probably have carried that arrangement off.
I've not seen them live, but
> they do appear to be preparing themselves for the UK Olympics to twee
> for Britain.
>
> I shall say nothing of Lisa Knapp except thank God for the mute
> button... they obviously only let Thea Gilmore do one song on the
> grounds she could a) sing and b) write a decent song...
>
> Bellowhead were pretty good (just to show I do actually like some of
> this folk stuff) but as for the twit who sang Emmanuel...
Bellowhead were only good by comparison with the others although their
instrumental set was passable.
--
Bernard Peek
Arthur Marshall
from Bernard Peek <b...@shrdlu.com> contains these words:
> Bellowhead were only good by comparison with the others although their
> instrumental set was passable.
It might have been my TV, which is nearly as old as I am, but certainly
it seemed that in their last instrumental set the balance was dreadful -
the tune seemed to be on melodeon and fiddle but all you could hear was
the brass stabs. The wife thought that the leaping about might have
decoupled his cable. I just thought it was crap production.
I think this is the first time I have slated something here without
getting hate mail and being told to crawl back under my rock. This is
worrying. I may have to start a thread damning people with degrees in
folk music in order to get my credibility back...
Be that as it may, what is it with this compulsion among new folk
performers to be so blasted twee? I've noticed the trend towards
slowing everything down to try and pretend it's meaningful instead of
just a bloody good chorus song over the past few years, and that doesn't
help.
I even heard a soulful version of the Wild Rover not long ago, and
what's the point of that?
--
Arthur Marshall
nb Lord Byron's Maggot
Gill Smith
news:3130303032353...@zetnet.co.uk...
> Folk music has not been well served by the BBC over the past year or two.
Folk music hasn't been well-served by folk music for decades
because it is irrelevant
--
chill-out to Christmas http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/
Peter Thomas
<art...@zetnet.co.uk> writes
>The message <4b2ac879$0$2529$da0f...@news.zen.co.uk>
>from Bernard Peek <b...@shrdlu.com> contains these words:
>
>
>> Bellowhead were only good by comparison with the others although their
>> instrumental set was passable.
>
>It might have been my TV, which is nearly as old as I am, but certainly
>it seemed that in their last instrumental set the balance was dreadful -
>the tune seemed to be on melodeon and fiddle but all you could hear was
>the brass stabs. The wife thought that the leaping about might have
>decoupled his cable. I just thought it was crap production.
I may look and listen to it again, but on a first run through
Transatlantic Session Series 3 Episode 5 on IPlayer I really couldn't
pick out the sound of the melodeon that I could see in the session.
Seemed to be wired. About 25+ minutes in.
--
Peter Thomas
William Black
> "Arthur Marshall" <art...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3130303032353...@zetnet.co.uk...
>
>> Folk music has not been well served by the BBC over the past year or two.
>
> Folk music hasn't been well-served by folk music for decades
>
> because it is irrelevant
To what?
It has become horribly self indulgent and introspective in many ways,
and suffers in much the same way as the rest of our society does with
'the cult of celedrity', but it remains as relevant as it ever was.
--
William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.
Peter Thomas
<willia...@hotmail.co.uk> writes
>Gill Smith wrote:
>> "Arthur Marshall" <art...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:3130303032353...@zetnet.co.uk...
>>
>>> Folk music has not been well served by the BBC over the past year or
>>>two.
>> Folk music hasn't been well-served by folk music for decades
>> because it is irrelevant
>
>To what?
>
>It has become horribly self indulgent and introspective in many ways,
>and suffers in much the same way as the rest of our society does with
>'the cult of celedrity', but it remains as relevant as it ever was.
>
As far as I remember, and I stand be to corrected, he commented on the
folk scene distinct from the very traditional activity centred on Morris
sides.
I could argue that the folk as paid performance is a paradox, and I'm
sure I shouldn't be the first to do so. On the other hand, I have hard a
very well-known promoter - indeed a folk impresario - say that he puts
young performers on so that in due course there will be a generation as
excellent as Martin Simpson and, I think, Martin Carthy now are.
Ye pays yer money and yer takes yer choice.
I have found a personal drift towards doing it - dance, instruments and
song[1] - at least to an extent rather than only paying to be
entertained. Inevitably, the Morris is involved.
[1] OK, bass in a community choir.
--
Peter Thomas
William Black
That all sounds reasonable to me.
But I'm afraid I'm far too old and fat to start dancing...
JohnB
> > <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> writes
> >> Gill Smith wrote:
> >>> "Arthur Marshall" <arth...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> >>>news:3130303032353...@zetnet.co.uk...
>
> >>>> Folk music has not been well served by the BBC over the past year or
> >>>> two.
> >>> Folk music hasn't been well-served by folk music for decades
> >>> because it is irrelevant
>
> >> To what?
>
> >> It has become horribly self indulgent and introspective in many ways,
> >> and suffers in much the same way as the rest of our society does with
> >> 'the cult of celedrity', but it remains as relevant as it ever was.
>
> > Was at a talk-fest in London where Chris Wood was engaged in discussion.
> > As far as I remember, and I stand be to corrected, he commented on the
> > folk scene distinct from the very traditional activity centred on Morris
> > sides.
>
> > I could argue that the folk as paid performance is a paradox, and I'm
> > sure I shouldn't be the first to do so. On the other hand, I have hard a
> > very well-known promoter - indeed a folk impresario - say that he puts
> > young performers on so that in due course there will be a generation as
> > excellent as Martin Simpson and, I think, Martin Carthy now are.
>
> > Ye pays yer money and yer takes yer choice.
Indeed. And choice is one thing a lot of folks don't exercise. Our
club is a mixture of singers' nights and guests which is best of both
worlds and also worst of both too.
I am still amazed by the number of people who sing American songs by
the likes of Tom Paxton and James Taylor for the hundredth time to the
same audience and both singer and audience still seem to enjoy the
experience. That's folk being irrelevant - to me.
I am also amazed by the number of artists who look to the folk scene
to make themselves a few bob (and often a lot more than a few) by
singing pop songs acoustically - and the folk scene* seems to love
them for it. (*a significant %age, anyway)
I am also amazed by what I can sometimes find perfectly enjoyable too.
Some of the young ones are really really good; others seem to be
trying to mess with things without knowing what they're dealing with;
others don't seem to have anything new to add. As ever you have to
trust that the cream will rise to the surface. 'Twas ever thus.
>
> > I have found a personal drift towards doing it - dance, instruments and
> > song[1] - at least to an extent rather than only paying to be
> > entertained. Inevitably, the Morris is involved.
>
> > [1] OK, bass in a community choir.
>
> That all sounds reasonable to me.
>
> But I'm afraid I'm far too old and fat to start dancing...
It's because I'm old and fat that I am taking up dancing! However, as
my wife wants me to dance *with* her, I'll have to give the Morris a
miss. We've booked Tango and Salsa (Beginners) :-)
Peter J Seymour
inaudible (faintly discernable at odd moments). There was also a spanish
guitar player who seemed to be just going along for the ride. Pride of
place seems to be given to the american regulars (guitar, dobro, mandolin).
Peter
Steve at fivetrees
news:f33196e7-1bec-4a59...@s20g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>>
I am still amazed by the number of people who sing American songs by
the likes of Tom Paxton and James Taylor for the hundredth time to the
same audience and both singer and audience still seem to enjoy the
experience. That's folk being irrelevant - to me.
I am also amazed by the number of artists who look to the folk scene
to make themselves a few bob (and often a lot more than a few) by
singing pop songs acoustically - and the folk scene* seems to love
them for it. (*a significant %age, anyway)
I am also amazed by what I can sometimes find perfectly enjoyable too. <<
Interesting.
I've long been struck by the difference between what the Merkins call
"wooden music" (cf CSN Woodstock '69) and what the Brits call folk. There's
a disconnect there. There's room for acoustic music in the UK that isn't
folk in the purist sense, yet the folk purists call it impure and hence
worthless. Feck 'em. There's room for both.
To be honest, I'm not a fan of "pure" folk. Sure, fivetrees is mainly (not
exclusively) about what we label "folk" - it was originally setup around
Show of Hands, and I distinctly remember Steve K taking a kicking for his
somewhat-electric solo album - which I loved. (He's recently redone it, more
folky I'm told, which seems a shame, but I've not heard it yet.) And I'm a
big fan of Little Johnny England. But I'm also a big fan of Jerry Douglas
etc - yanks playing acoustic (slide dobro in his case). It's actually the
purist, elistist thing that I have a problem with - it's a way of prejudging
stuff which may be actually pretty good, but isn't "pure". Bollocks to that.
Labels shcmabels.
Summary: I do wish we'd get past this F-word label - which again Show of
Hands used to rebel against, in my view, quite rightly.
Steve
(PS: I've not heard the Unthanks, but I have a feeling I'm gonna hate 'em ;)
My Emperor's new clothes' detector is pretty sensitive).
--
http://www.fivetrees.com
Peter Thomas
fivetrees <st...@NOSPAMTAfivetrees.com> writes
......
>). It's actually the
>purist, elistist thing that I have a problem with - it's a way of prejudging
>stuff which may be actually pretty good, but isn't "pure". Bollocks to that.
>Labels shcmabels.
>
........
Just had a rather good folk club evening that did have a bit of rock and
roll in it. Get enough choruses was good, as well. And carols and
Christmassy/Midwinter stuff.
What was really nice was getting a young and unpretentious group of
musicians who are very good, can actually sing and very play well and
are just great to listen to.
Nonny Tabbush disappears inside a song and gives it life, big ballads
particularly. None of yer wingey breathiness nonsense attributed to some
others in this thread. A very, very good singing voice indeed.
Tristan Seume on guitar - playing just enough notes and a bit of vocals
and pretty damn' good.
Debbie Chalmers was discreetly supportive on fiddle except when she
came to the fore for a couple of tunes and I remembered hearing Dave
Swarbrick when he was that age.
Quite unhyped. Pure delight to hear every word sung well, clearly and
with meaning. Accompaniment that supported the songs whilst not getting
in the way.
Just started gigging as Nonny and the Wreckers - was previously the
Reckless Engineers - name may change.
--
Peter Thomas
Java Jive
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 22:49:49 +0000, Molly Mockford
<nospam...@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:
> At 22:17:54 on Thu, 17 Dec 2009, Arthur Marshall <art...@zetnet.co.uk>
> wrote in <3130303032353...@zetnet.co.uk>:
>
> >Just watched it, admittedly with the sound turned off every now and then
> >- a dire version of In the Bleak Midwinter by the appalling Unthanks,
> >who made it somewhat bleaker than usual by slowing it down to funereal
> >pace and then singing it out of tune... I've not seen them live, but
> >they do appear to be preparing themselves for the UK Olympics to twee
> >for Britain.
>
> Agreed. On that showing, I wouldn't go into the next room to hear the
> Unthanks. In fact, I would probably cross town to avoid them.
Yes, I cannot understand their popularity - out of tune singers,
zero charisma. Another example of modern, for some reason or other
mostly female, singers who don't close their vocal chords completely,
and thus have inadequate voice control and an unpleasant, impure,
'breathy' tone.
> > I shall say nothing of Lisa Knapp except thank God for the mute
> > button
Or, in my case, the 'skip 1 minute' button. Another one without the
basics of vocal technique.
> > they obviously only let Thea Gilmore do one song on the
> > grounds she could a) sing and b) write a decent song...
Yes, at least she could sing.
> >Bellowhead were pretty good (just to show I do actually like some of
> >this folk stuff)
I'm not a fan of Bellowhead, and last night was no exception. For me
the band never 'gels' together, but always sound as though disparate
parts are playing accompaniments to differet tunes. They're usually
just about 'on the beat', the major ones, but the minor beats within
the bars are all over the place. The trouble with big bands is that
the more instruments that are playing together, the 'tighter' and
'crisper' it has to be. I suspect that any Big Band leader of the
Jazz era, any Pipe Major, would emphasize that. I don't think it's
coincidence that the bit I enjoyed most was mostly just fiddle and
accordian.
Also, their singer who hadn't lost his voice has a terrible tremor.
> And Sam Lee - stepping in for the voiceless John Spiers - was, as
> always, excellent. I've been watching him for two or three years now,
> and he gets better every single time I hear him.
Yes, he seemed reasonable but for the fact he was duetting with the
tremor.
> >but as for the twit who sang Emmanuel...
>
> Jim Moray. Yes.
>
> It seems that some people just don't realise that it takes a *lot* of
> breath control and voice control to sing slowly without sounding like a
> dirge.
Moray just can't hack it. In my choir days, that hymn was a
favourite, and I can still hear in my mind's ear (and appreciate, even
now as an unrepentant atheist), the glorious and inspirational way we
used to wellie it out. However, I have to say that in modern times
where Israel is largely seen as a state oppressing its Arabic
residents, the words seem now a little discordant.
> Belshazzar's Feast, by contrast, kept their songs up-tempo, and
> sounded all the better for it. I enjoyed them, Bellowhead and Sam Lee;
> the rest could have stayed at home as far as I'm concerned.
Yes, and humorous intros as well, for me the only thing worth hearing
in the entire evening. In fact, I'd've been happy to listen to a
whole hour of them alone.
William Black
> Yes, I cannot understand their popularity - out of tune singers,
> zero charisma. Another example of modern, for some reason or other
> mostly female, singers who don't close their vocal chords completely,
> and thus have inadequate voice control and an unpleasant, impure,
> 'breathy' tone.
>
Blame karaoke.
It seems to set the standard for today's singers.
I don't think they got the "Looks at the books, breathe from the
stomach, what do you mean you want tea, you've only been practising
for two hours." that I got from dear old Reverend Freidberg in choir
practice over forty years ago.
Oh yes, and if you sang flat you got a smack around the head...
Mind you, he couldn't half sing...
Andrew Robert Breen
Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>Watched the recording last night ...
>
>On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 22:49:49 +0000, Molly Mockford
><nospam...@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> At 22:17:54 on Thu, 17 Dec 2009, Arthur Marshall <art...@zetnet.co.uk>
>> wrote in <3130303032353...@zetnet.co.uk>:
>>
>> >Just watched it, admittedly with the sound turned off every now and then
>> >- a dire version of In the Bleak Midwinter by the appalling Unthanks,
>> >who made it somewhat bleaker than usual by slowing it down to funereal
>> >pace and then singing it out of tune... I've not seen them live, but
Umm. "Funeral pace"? Really? It might be sung faster in some odd southern
corners of .uk, but when I grew up in the North-East it was sung at very
much the speed the Unthanks did it at.
As to "out of tune" - again, it's a singing style that's familiar in the
NE (at least, I remember hearing it about, generally from the older
generations). Folk traditions varying across the land, y'know..
That said, I'm not over-sure I personally go for the particular way the
Unthanks have taken that tradition on, and their version of ItBMW the
other nigth was a bit Victorian-front-parlour for my tastes (though that,
too, is viably within the folk process...). They can be very good indeed
(to my ear: as witness "Farewell to Hexhamshire" on The Bairns),other
times I can leave 'em - but that's personal taste, not a quality
assessment.
>> > I shall say nothing of Lisa Knapp except thank God for the mute
>> > button
>
>Or, in my case, the 'skip 1 minute' button. Another one without the
>basics of vocal technique.
Not particularly to my taste, but interesting. Marked as "one to watch".
>> > they obviously only let Thea Gilmore do one song on the
>> > grounds she could a) sing and b) write a decent song...
>
>Yes, at least she could sing.
>
'Mericanised snigger-snogwriter. OK as such, but //way// out of place in
that setting. Why?
>> >Bellowhead were pretty good (just to show I do actually like some of
>> >this folk stuff)
>
>I'm not a fan of Bellowhead, and last night was no exception. For me
Bellowhead stunning (again, as pretty much usual..). IMO, of course, but
having persuaded several people they MUST WATCH THIS I've suddenly got
about 4-5 more people saying they'll be at Bellowhead's January gig in
Aberystwyth - and these are not people who normally come out to hear
music...
> >Also, their singer who hadn't lost his voice has a terrible tremor.
JOn Boden? If so, that's how he sings: influence of Peter Bellamy, I
believe - or was that a "terrible tremor" too?
>> And Sam Lee - stepping in for the voiceless John Spiers - was, as
>> always, excellent. I've been watching him for two or three years now,
>> and he gets better every single time I hear him.
>
>Yes, he seemed reasonable but for the fact he was duetting with the
>tremor.
Cracker of a deut. Loved the contrasting styles.
>> >but as for the twit who sang Emmanuel...
>>
>> Jim Moray. Yes.
>>
>> It seems that some people just don't realise that it takes a *lot* of
>> breath control and voice control to sing slowly without sounding like a
>> dirge.
>
>Moray just can't hack it. In my choir days, that hymn was a
>favourite, and I can still hear in my mind's ear (and appreciate, even
>now as an unrepentant atheist), the glorious and inspirational way we
>used to wellie it out. However, I have to say that in modern times
>where Israel is largely seen as a state oppressing its Arabic
>residents, the words seem now a little discordant.
Oh, I reckon it came across OK-enough. Still prefer the Blyth Power take
on it, but that wouldn't have really fitted with the rest of the set :)
>> Belshazzar's Feast, by contrast, kept their songs up-tempo, and
>> sounded all the better for it. I enjoyed them, Bellowhead and Sam Lee;
>> the rest could have stayed at home as far as I'm concerned.
>
>Yes, and humorous intros as well, for me the only thing worth hearing
>in the entire evening. In fact, I'd've been happy to listen to a
>whole hour of them alone.
Belshazzar's Feast are always good value, but to me they were just one
(good) part of what was overall an excellent line up. One thing that
really leaped across was the joy in and confidence in the music (when I
checked that the recording had come out OK I ended up listening to the one
I'd done of something from 2005 as well, and was left thinking "my, hasn't
the UK folk scene come on tremendously in four years.."). Best advert for
english folk music I've seen in a bit - and it does seem to have sold some
more people on it. That's got to be a good thing.
But, of course, personal preference varies. Opinion and all that. Place
for everything, even a place for guy-with-guitar singing Tom Paxton songs
in falk 'merricun accent, though I'm actually damned if I can think of
where that place might be.
--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)
Molly Mockford
wrote in <r25vv6x...@news.aber.ac.uk>:
>That said, I'm not over-sure I personally go for the particular way the
>Unthanks have taken that tradition on, and their version of ItBMW the
>other nigth was a bit Victorian-front-parlour for my tastes (though that,
>too, is viably within the folk process...). They can be very good indeed
>(to my ear: as witness "Farewell to Hexhamshire" on The Bairns),other
>times I can leave 'em - but that's personal taste, not a quality
>assessment.
Wasn't The Bairns by Rachel Unthank and the Winterset, rather than the
Unthanks?
>But, of course, personal preference varies. Opinion and all that. Place
>for everything, even a place for guy-with-guitar singing Tom Paxton songs
>in falk 'merricun accent, though I'm actually damned if I can think of
>where that place might be.
Oh, I think in the B&B/Singers' Club, don't you? ;-}
Andrew Robert Breen
Molly Mockford <usene...@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:
>At 14:37:47 on Sat, 19 Dec 2009, Andrew Robert Breen <a...@aber.ac.uk>
>wrote in <r25vv6x...@news.aber.ac.uk>:
>
>>That said, I'm not over-sure I personally go for the particular way the
>>Unthanks have taken that tradition on, and their version of ItBMW the
>>other nigth was a bit Victorian-front-parlour for my tastes (though that,
>>too, is viably within the folk process...). They can be very good indeed
>>(to my ear: as witness "Farewell to Hexhamshire" on The Bairns),other
>>times I can leave 'em - but that's personal taste, not a quality
>>assessment.
>
>Wasn't The Bairns by Rachel Unthank and the Winterset, rather than the
>Unthanks?
Yes, but it's the same core of bods. Same main singers, certainly.
Trouble is the name - old, long established north-country name though it
be (dammit, I even know what the derivation of it is..), just keeps
reminding me of Alastair Grey's "Lanark", which is a dubious thing in many
contexts.
>>But, of course, personal preference varies. Opinion and all that. Place
>>for everything, even a place for guy-with-guitar singing Tom Paxton songs
>>in falk 'merricun accent, though I'm actually damned if I can think of
>>where that place might be.
>
>Oh, I think in the B&B/Singers' Club, don't you? ;-}
If pressed, I'd have just said "elsewhere", but that's just me.
--
Andy Breen ~ Speaking for myself, not the University of Wales
"your suggestion rates at four monkeys for six weeks"
(Peter D. Rieden)
Java Jive
Breen) wrote:
> As to "out of tune" - again, it's a singing style that's familiar in the
> NE (at least, I remember hearing it about, generally from the older
> generations). Folk traditions varying across the land, y'know..
This is rubbish, out of tune is out of tune. It is caused by many
things, mostly things to do with the singer, though it's worth
pointing out that bad foldback on PA can lead to a singer not being
able to hear a sufficiently well-balanced combninatoin of the band and
themselves to be sure of what (s)he is doing. However, that is not
the problem here, I have heard the Unthanks a few times before, and
they were out of tune every time. Clearly the girl(s) either have not
a sufficiently well-trained ear, or just don't bother to listen
critically to themselves. Being out of tune is a technical failing
that has *nothing* to do with style.
> >Or, in my case, the 'skip 1 minute' button. Another one without the
> >basics of vocal technique.
>
> Not particularly to my taste, but interesting. Marked as "one to watch".
But not as one to listen to? :-)
> Bellowhead stunning (again, as pretty much usual..). IMO, of course, but
> having persuaded several people they MUST WATCH THIS I've suddenly got
> about 4-5 more people saying they'll be at Bellowhead's January gig in
> Aberystwyth - and these are not people who normally come out to hear
> music...
Again, many musicians would say that not keeping good time is a
technical failing.
> > >Also, their singer who hadn't lost his voice has a terrible tremor.
>
> JOn Boden? If so, that's how he sings: influence of Peter Bellamy, I
> believe - or was that a "terrible tremor" too?
I was never as much a fan of Bellamy's singing as of his writing. If
you're going to copy someone else's singing style (but why not sing as
'yourself'?) it would be better by far to begin by choosing a good
singer to copy.
William Black
>> As to "out of tune" - again, it's a singing style that's familiar in the
>> NE (at least, I remember hearing it about, generally from the older
>> generations). Folk traditions varying across the land, y'know..
>
> This is rubbish, out of tune is out of tune.
I have 'issues' with the whole Bellowhead thing.
Everything they play sounds like someone else.
But it's never the same 'someone else'...
It's a bit like Paul McCartney's reply when asked what he thought of the
music played by oasis:
"Very good, I think I wrote most of it."
With Bellowhead I always think I've heard it before...
The odd discords are, I think, due to some instruments being at concert
pitch, and some not.
I don't like it either...
I keep expecting the voice of the late Charlie Drake to chime in...
Ian Jackson
<a...@aber.ac.uk> writes
>>Wasn't The Bairns by Rachel Unthank and the Winterset, rather than the
>>Unthanks?
>
>Yes, but it's the same core of bods. Same main singers, certainly.
>
>Trouble is the name - old, long established north-country name though it
>be (dammit, I even know what the derivation of it is..), just keeps
>reminding me of Alastair Grey's "Lanark", which is a dubious thing in many
>contexts.
Possibly related to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unthank,_Alnham
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unthank,_Haltwhistle
As they sang a song about the Tar Barrel ceremony, at Allendale - which
is fairly near Haltwhistle, I suspect it might be the latter.
http://www.north-country.co.uk/tar-barrels.htm
But there's quite a few Unthanks in them thar parts.
--
Ian
Andrew Robert Breen
Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 14:37:47 +0000, a...@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Robert
>Breen) wrote:
>
>> As to "out of tune" - again, it's a singing style that's familiar in the
>> NE (at least, I remember hearing it about, generally from the older
>> generations). Folk traditions varying across the land, y'know..
>
>This is rubbish, out of tune is out of tune. It is caused by many
Ah: so where in north Durham did you grow up (or live) and hear some of
the older 'uns sing? This kind of 'half-tone' singing (that isn't the
proper term, I know, but I can't recall the real one..) does seem to be
pretty area-specific. Bit of the Tyne valley, maybe. Certainly up th
Derwent (which is where I heard it). First time I heard Rachel Unthank
(and band, whatever it was then - pre-Winterset, I think..) my reaction
as "not heard /that/ sort of singing in a long time..."
Only ever heard it in Chopwell and about Lintz Ford, maybe down to Shotley
Bridge.. Occasionally wondered (when I bother to think of such things)
whether it was an eastern style of singing-in-not-quite-the-same-tone:
lots of German/Hungarian miners and metalsmiths came over to around there
in the way-back for the old steel (swordsmithing) trade. Dunno. No doubt
someone is doing a PhD in Newcastle on it..
>> Not particularly to my taste, but interesting. Marked as "one to watch".
>
>But not as one to listen to? :-)
Potentially interesting. Watch and listen..
>> Bellowhead stunning (again, as pretty much usual..). IMO, of course, but
>> having persuaded several people they MUST WATCH THIS I've suddenly got
>> about 4-5 more people saying they'll be at Bellowhead's January gig in
>> Aberystwyth - and these are not people who normally come out to hear
>> music...
>
>Again, many musicians would say that not keeping good time is a
>technical failing.
Kurt Weill would probably have disagreed, as would generations of jazzers.
I rather like the edge-of-chaos-but-never-quite-falling-off-it thing they
do, but then I also like Brass Monkey and vastly enjoyed Moving Hearts,
years ago..
>> > >Also, their singer who hadn't lost his voice has a terrible tremor.
>>
>> JOn Boden? If so, that's how he sings: influence of Peter Bellamy, I
>> believe - or was that a "terrible tremor" too?
>
>I was never as much a fan of Bellamy's singing as of his writing. If
>you're going to copy someone else's singing style (but why not sing as
>'yourself'?) it would be better by far to begin by choosing a good
>singer to copy.
Thankfully, folk music ain't a monoculture. As the good Mr Carthy put it
(paraphrased!), the only thing that'll damage it is to /not/ do new stuff
with it. After the awful drought of the back end of the 90s, this rush of
new, wonderful and interesting stuff is purely dead brilliant, even if I
don't like all of it. IMO, of course.
--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
"Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes)
Andrew Robert Breen
Lots of stony, sour-ground fields, which (I believe, based on a tretise on
field names in Northumberland I have somewhere around the place) is what
it means. From that you get farms on the uplands taking the name, from
that (I suspect) you get it becoming the family name as surnames became
the fashion, back whenever that happened.
It's a common place-name in southern Scotland too, hence Gray's use of it
for his fictional/fantastical parallel to Glasgow (the sour, poor ground
association being quite explicit there, of course).
Gill Smith
news:hgfrvs$264$5...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Gill Smith wrote:
>> "Arthur Marshall" <art...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:3130303032353...@zetnet.co.uk...
>>
>>> Folk music has not been well served by the BBC over the past year or
>>> two.
>>
>> Folk music hasn't been well-served by folk music for decades
>>
>> because it is irrelevant
>
> To what?
puerile student politics
there's plenty to complain about aside from silk-hatted, cigar-chomping
plutocrats
Andrew Robert Breen
Andrew Robert Breen <a...@aber.ac.uk> wrote:
>(and band, whatever it was then - pre-Winterset, I think..) my reaction
>as "not heard /that/ sort of singing in a long time..."
>
>Only ever heard it in Chopwell and about Lintz Ford, maybe down to Shotley
>Bridge.. Occasionally wondered (when I bother to think of such things)
Thinking more on this: that "last time I heard that" can't be a lot under
40 years ago now (oops..). Probably 37 or 38 years. And the people I heard
singing that way would have been in their 70s or more then[1]. Not
professional singers at all, not singing for anyone but themselves, and
not (frankly) that good singers, I suspect - but there was this same stle
of people /intentionally/ not singing in /quite/ the same tone as
eachother. It was only when I heard some Unthanks (or whatever the name
used then was..) stuff that I remembered about that..
[1] Visiting aged relative (step-grandfather): friends of his visiting and
singing. Also, IIRC, local carollers around some of those villages when
visiting other relatives up the Derwent valley. Certainly not later than
1972 or so.
--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
Java Jive
Breen) wrote:
> In article <c77qi55drkkv8u83o...@4ax.com>,
> Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >This is rubbish, out of tune is out of tune. It is caused by many
>
> Ah: so where in north Durham did you grow up (or live) and hear some of
> the older 'uns sing?
When younger, I spent quite a lot of time listening to old recordings
out of local libraries.
> Only ever heard it in Chopwell and about Lintz Ford, maybe down to Shotley
> Bridge.. Occasionally wondered (when I bother to think of such things)
> Thinking more on this: that "last time I heard that" can't be a lot under
> 40 years ago now (oops..). Probably 37 or 38 years. And the people I heard
> singing that way would have been in their 70s or more then[1]. Not
> professional singers at all, not singing for anyone but themselves, and
> not (frankly) that good singers, I suspect
Quite. Most of these people were recorded as an attempt to preserve
the songs - the words and the tunes - before the people who knew
them died and the memory forgotten. Singing being very subject to
aging (Have you heard Joan Baez recently? Nothing like the rivetingly
beautiful voice of her youth!), many of the singers, however good or
otherwise they may have been when young, were consequently well past
their best by the time they came to be recorded. It's the height of
idiocy to assume that just because that's the way the songs happen to
have been recorded, that's the way they have to be performed, warts
and all, for ever more.
To debate this further, I shall put two opposing lines of argument,
and I admit that in doing so more personal views of mine coming in
than the purely technical arguments I was putting previously.
In one sense 'style' is not something that features in traditional
singing. Quite a good working definition, albeit a very limited one,
of folk music is music that has no style. Once you perform something
in the style of a particular genre, then it becomes part of that
genre, rather than folk music. So, for example, "De Camtown Races" is
usually considered a Trad Jazz number, rather than folk after it's
supposedly folk origins (which may be dubious anyway, I can't remember
now). Russian folk tunes entwined by Tchaikovsky into his Symphonies
and ballet scores are thought of as being Classical (some might use
the term Romantic), and so on. A bluegrass number, a blues number,
could be argued not to be folk in the strictest sense, because they
both have definite styles. A traditional singer, by contrast 'just
sings' his/her songs, a traditional musician 'just plays' them.
Against this view, Roy Harris used to tell a story of how he once
witnessed a traditional singer (I can't remember which now) starting
to sing "Wild Mountain Thyme", and when the audience started joining
in the chorus, he stopped and complained to them, because in his day
people didn't do that. It may be unthinkable to us today to sing that
song and not expect everyone to sing the chorus, but that wasn't the
point that Roy was trying to make. For Roy, it showed that the singer
had in his mind a clear idea of what the song should sound like, which
in turn suggests to me that he was doing more than 'just singing'.
Consequently, while I think the first point of view has some merit, in
that it can help clarify in one's mind how much 'interpretation' to
put on a song (too little usually being preferable to too much, as
long as too little doesn't mean being totally wooden and boring) , I
wouldn't wish to push the idea to extremes where it would become
illogical and ridiculous.
Nevertheless, the above discussion does illustrate the point that the
songs have been preserved for us to sing how *we* think fit, not
necessarily how they happen to have been recorded.
Further, if the Unthanks were capable of singing in tune, they would
do so when performing non-local music out of your putative 'style',
but they don't. They don't because they can't.
With modern aural reproduction techniques, most of the listening
public have access to recordings of some of the best singers in the
world, and therefore are more likely to notice in others obvious
technical deficiencies such as not being able to sing in tune.
Consequently, this current wave of out of tune singers is unlikely to
help the cause in the long term.
Mind you, that ghastly Welsh pop-singer who couldn't sing in tune,
seemed to do alright. Fortunately, I've forgotten both her name and
what she sounded like. Age does have its few rewards ...
Andrew Robert Breen
Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 21:06:10 +0000, a...@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Robert
>Breen) wrote:
>
>> In article <c77qi55drkkv8u83o...@4ax.com>,
>> Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >This is rubbish, out of tune is out of tune. It is caused by many
>>
>> Ah: so where in north Durham did you grow up (or live) and hear some of
>> the older 'uns sing?
>
>When younger, I spent quite a lot of time listening to old recordings
>out of local libraries.
Oh, been there, done that too - all when younger and terribly stalinist
about folk music and its integrity...
>> Only ever heard it in Chopwell and about Lintz Ford, maybe down to Shotley
>> Bridge.. Occasionally wondered (when I bother to think of such things)
>
>> Thinking more on this: that "last time I heard that" can't be a lot under
>> 40 years ago now (oops..). Probably 37 or 38 years. And the people I heard
>> singing that way would have been in their 70s or more then[1]. Not
>> professional singers at all, not singing for anyone but themselves, and
>> not (frankly) that good singers, I suspect
>
>Quite. Most of these people were recorded as an attempt to preserve
>the songs - the words and the tunes - before the people who knew
>them died and the memory forgotten. Singing being very subject to
>aging (Have you heard Joan Baez recently? Nothing like the rivetingly
Not if I had warning..
>beautiful voice of her youth!), many of the singers, however good or
>otherwise they may have been when young, were consequently well past
>their best by the time they came to be recorded. It's the height of
>idiocy to assume that just because that's the way the songs happen to
>have been recorded, that's the way they have to be performed, warts
>and all, for ever more.
Sure, and sure - but those singers were insistant that the half-tones-off
were (as near as I can recall) "how they sang it" (I was a forward child -
I asked why why weren't singing in tune....)
>To debate this further, I shall put two opposing lines of argument,
>and I admit that in doing so more personal views of mine coming in
>than the purely technical arguments I was putting previously.
>
>In one sense 'style' is not something that features in traditional
>singing. Quite a good working definition, albeit a very limited one,
>of folk music is music that has no style. Once you perform something
>in the style of a particular genre, then it becomes part of that
>genre, rather than folk music. So, for example, "De Camtown Races" is
>usually considered a Trad Jazz number, rather than folk after it's
>supposedly folk origins (which may be dubious anyway, I can't remember
>now). Russian folk tunes entwined by Tchaikovsky into his Symphonies
>and ballet scores are thought of as being Classical (some might use
>the term Romantic), and so on. A bluegrass number, a blues number,
>could be argued not to be folk in the strictest sense, because they
>both have definite styles. A traditional singer, by contrast 'just
>sings' his/her songs, a traditional musician 'just plays' them.
OTOH, the background varies: would anyone argue that (say) Finnish
folk music differs from Chinese folk music differs from....
And areas cross-fertilise: I mentioned German/Hungarian migration
into the Derwent as a possible influence. Another possibilty occurs,
given that timber from the baltic has been coming into the Tyne since
at least the late 17th century, and the Derwent valley was tied into
that trade by railway since the 1690s at least (must have been one of
the first upland areas with such links..). Lots of Finnish music seems
to do that half-note-off thing too. No evidence to han for that, just
an idle thought..
>Nevertheless, the above discussion does illustrate the point that the
>songs have been preserved for us to sing how *we* think fit, not
>necessarily how they happen to have been recorded.
>
>Further, if the Unthanks were capable of singing in tune, they would
>do so when performing non-local music out of your putative 'style',
Not "my" style, Merely something I heard. Ask old Douglas' marras if you
want more. You'll need a shovel for it, mind.
More seriously, there's probably information on this at Newcastle University.
If anyone wants to have a dig there, I'd be very interested to hear the
results. Sadly, I have a queue of other things which need attention, 'cos
I'd love to do that digging...
>but they don't. They don't because they can't.
Or they sing it a certain way because that's how they sing. Not knowing
them to ask them, I know not..
>Mind you, that ghastly Welsh pop-singer who couldn't sing in tune,
>seemed to do alright. Fortunately, I've forgotten both her name and
>what she sounded like. Age does have its few rewards ...
Cerys Matthews? Noce enough lass, as I recall (had f-of-fs in common in the
way-back), though I was never fond of her singing. Last I heard, she'd
become a folkie...
--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
Peter Thomas
Smith <gill.sm...@googlemail.com> writes
,...
>there's plenty to complain about aside from silk-hatted, cigar-chomping
>plutocrats
We all should have top-hats and cigars. Not for nothing is our Morris
side called Mad Hatters....
--
Peter Thomas
Alan Crozier
The surname comes from a type of place-name which apparently means a
farm where a squatter settled 'without consent, willy-nilly'.
Alan Crozier
Java Jive
Breen) wrote:
>
> Sure, and sure - but those singers were insistant that the half-tones-off
> were (as near as I can recall) "how they sang it" (I was a forward child -
> I asked why why weren't singing in tune....)
That doesn't seem to prove anything. Seeing that some sort of
response was required, and not being in the modern habit of analysing
everything, probably they would have given much the same response to a
number of different possible questions about how they sang. In
effect, the reply says that they were 'just singing' the songs. Also,
if they weren't aware that they were out of tune, they probably
wouldn't've understood why the question was being asked, and, again
seeing that a response was required, would have replied in a
non-committal fashion.
> OTOH, the background varies: would anyone argue that (say) Finnish
> folk music differs from Chinese folk music differs from....
Which is also part of the other side of the argument that I also put
forward, but which you snipped.
> >Further, if the Unthanks were capable of singing in tune, they would
> >do so when performing non-local music out of your putative 'style',
>
> Not "my" style, Merely something I heard.
I didn't mean 'your' in the sense that you sing like that or have any
other connection with it other than, in the context of this thread, it
was you who came up with the expression.
> >but they don't. They don't because they can't.
>
> Or they sing it a certain way because that's how they sing. Not knowing
> them to ask them, I know not..
If you did ask them, they'd probably give the same non-committal
response to what they thought might be incipient criticism as you say
has already been given by previous generations. It doesn't seem to
prove anything, while there's no escaping the simple fact that they
sing out of tune.
> >Mind you, that ghastly Welsh pop-singer who couldn't sing in tune,
> >seemed to do alright. Fortunately, I've forgotten both her name and
> >what she sounded like. Age does have its few rewards ...
>
> Cerys Matthews?
I wasn't asking you to remind me, but that was the one. Awful row.
--
=========================================================
Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's
header does not exist. Or use a contact address at:
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html
Gill Smith
news:xNnF+TQ6...@godthoms.demon.co.uk...
I'll look out for you on Strictly Come Morris!
William Black
Revolutionary:"Comrades, come the revolution we shall all have silk
hats and cigars"
Onlooker: "But I don't like cigars"
Revolutionary: "Comrade, come the revolution you'll do as you're bloody
told"
Richard Robinson
>
> beautiful voice of her youth!), many of the singers, however good or
> otherwise they may have been when young, were consequently well past
> their best by the time they came to be recorded. It's the height of
> idiocy to assume that just because that's the way the songs happen to
> have been recorded, that's the way they have to be performed, warts
> and all, for ever more.
Of course, once you've established that some feature of the performance _is_
a wart then this follows. But, "pray consider it possible that you may be
mistaken". It may be a feature, not a bug.
To consider that you know how a piece should be performed, better than the
performer, can also appear highly idiotic.
> To debate this further, I shall put two opposing lines of argument,
> and I admit that in doing so more personal views of mine coming in
> than the purely technical arguments I was putting previously.
>
> In one sense 'style' is not something that features in traditional
> singing. Quite a good working definition, albeit a very limited one,
> of folk music is music that has no style. Once you perform something
> in the style of a particular genre, then it becomes part of that
> genre, rather than folk music. So, for example, "De Camtown Races" is
> usually considered a Trad Jazz number, rather than folk after it's
> supposedly folk origins (which may be dubious anyway, I can't remember
> now). Russian folk tunes entwined by Tchaikovsky into his Symphonies
> and ballet scores are thought of as being Classical (some might use
> the term Romantic), and so on. A bluegrass number, a blues number,
> could be argued not to be folk in the strictest sense, because they
> both have definite styles. A traditional singer, by contrast 'just
> sings' his/her songs, a traditional musician 'just plays' them.
So, if you were to listen to, say, a Shetland fiddler and an English
melodeon player perform their respective versions of, say, Speed the Plough,
you wouldn't expect to be able to tell them apart from their playing ? I
would expect to hear differences in, quite precisely, the 'style'.
Predictable (on average) differences in favoured keys, speeds, emphases,
possibly in the tricks of ornamentation ... style.
> Nevertheless, the above discussion does illustrate the point that the
> songs have been preserved for us to sing how *we* think fit, not
> necessarily how they happen to have been recorded.
It doesn't discuss where our ideas come from about why we think <whatever
style> is fit for it, or how the evidence of a recorded performance wouldn't
be an important factor.
--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem
My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html
Richard Robinson
>
> OTOH, the background varies: would anyone argue that (say) Finnish
> folk music differs from Chinese folk music differs from....
> And areas cross-fertilise: I mentioned German/Hungarian migration
> into the Derwent as a possible influence. Another possibilty occurs,
> given that timber from the baltic has been coming into the Tyne since
> at least the late 17th century, and the Derwent valley was tied into
> that trade by railway since the 1690s at least (must have been one of
> the first upland areas with such links..).
(I think there were a lot of Germans involved in the lead-mining, too,
somewhere up in Them Thar Hills. I wandered once into an area where
everybody seemed to speak with traces of a german accent, and they told me
that was how. I forget where exactly it was, though).
> Lots of Finnish music seems
> to do that half-note-off thing too. No evidence to han for that, just
> an idle thought..
I listened to old Swedish & Norwegian recordings for years before it began
to dawn on me that the way the various fiddles, assorted winds, voices,
bozouki, etc, seemed to converge on the same sets of "wrong notes" needed a
better explanation than dismissing them as incompetent.
Someone posted, here, once, a reference to a book on the history of the
various temperaments and tuning systems over the last several centuries. My
point being, 'in tune' is not only a local construct, but also in some
respects a temporary one. "God made the octaves, all else is the work of
humans".
And that's before we start on the foreign stuff.
>>Nevertheless, the above discussion does illustrate the point that the
>>songs have been preserved for us to sing how *we* think fit, not
>>necessarily how they happen to have been recorded.
>>
>>Further, if the Unthanks were capable of singing in tune, they would
>>do so when performing non-local music out of your putative 'style',
>
> Not "my" style, Merely something I heard. Ask old Douglas' marras if you
> want more. You'll need a shovel for it, mind.
>
> More seriously, there's probably information on this at Newcastle University.
> If anyone wants to have a dig there, I'd be very interested to hear the
> results. Sadly, I have a queue of other things which need attention, 'cos
> I'd love to do that digging...
>
>>but they don't. They don't because they can't.
>
> Or they sing it a certain way because that's how they sing. Not knowing
> them to ask them, I know not..
That would seem like the sensible way to resolve the question, certainly.
Andrew Robert Breen
Richard Robinson <rich...@privacy.net> wrote:
>Andrew Robert Breen said:
>>
>> OTOH, the background varies: would anyone argue that (say) Finnish
>> folk music differs from Chinese folk music differs from....
>> And areas cross-fertilise: I mentioned German/Hungarian migration
>> into the Derwent as a possible influence. Another possibilty occurs,
>> given that timber from the baltic has been coming into the Tyne since
>> at least the late 17th century, and the Derwent valley was tied into
>> that trade by railway since the 1690s at least (must have been one of
>> the first upland areas with such links..).
>
>(I think there were a lot of Germans involved in the lead-mining, too,
>somewhere up in Them Thar Hills. I wandered once into an area where
>everybody seemed to speak with traces of a german accent, and they told me
>that was how. I forget where exactly it was, though).
They're always described as "Germans" - and in terms of language they
would have been, but in the 16th century the big metal-mining areas (and
certainly the most technically advanced) were mainly in what's now Hungary
(and Slovakia) - the various Saxon enclaves down in those parts. Hadn't
realised that until recently, but given that the miners Lizzie One
imported to the Lake District and Wales came from (now-)Hungarian Saxony,
it strikes me as likely that the ones up the Derwent tops did as well.
The swordsmiths would be from other parts of Germany, though.
>> Lots of Finnish music seems
>> to do that half-note-off thing too. No evidence to han for that, just
>> an idle thought..
>
>I listened to old Swedish & Norwegian recordings for years before it began
>to dawn on me that the way the various fiddles, assorted winds, voices,
>bozouki, etc, seemed to converge on the same sets of "wrong notes" needed a
>better explanation than dismissing them as incompetent.
And big, big trading ties to Norway and Sweden too, going way back when.
For an apparently isolated upland area, the mining, steelmaking and then
the coal waggonways could have opened it up to a whole range of
influences.
All speculation, of course!
>Someone posted, here, once, a reference to a book on the history of the
>various temperaments and tuning systems over the last several centuries. My
>point being, 'in tune' is not only a local construct, but also in some
>respects a temporary one. "God made the octaves, all else is the work of
>humans".
>
>And that's before we start on the foreign stuff.
Whatever "foreign" is, given the vigorous stirring that trade and
migration have been doing for centuries.. :)
>> I'd love to do that digging...
>>
>>>but they don't. They don't because they can't.
>>
>> Or they sing it a certain way because that's how they sing. Not knowing
>> them to ask them, I know not..
>
>That would seem like the sensible way to resolve the question, certainly.
Anyone here know the Unthank sisters well enough to ask that one? I'd be
interested in what they said.
Richard Robinson
> Richard Robinson <rich...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>(I think there were a lot of Germans involved in the lead-mining, too,
>>somewhere up in Them Thar Hills. I wandered once into an area where
>>everybody seemed to speak with traces of a german accent, and they told me
>>that was how. I forget where exactly it was, though).
>
> They're always described as "Germans" - and in terms of language they
> would have been, but in the 16th century the big metal-mining areas (and
> certainly the most technically advanced) were mainly in what's now Hungary
> (and Slovakia) - the various Saxon enclaves down in those parts. Hadn't
> realised that until recently, but given that the miners Lizzie One
> imported to the Lake District and Wales came from (now-)Hungarian Saxony,
> it strikes me as likely that the ones up the Derwent tops did as well.
> The swordsmiths would be from other parts of Germany, though.
That's interesting, I didn't know that.
>>And that's before we start on the foreign stuff.
>
> Whatever "foreign" is, given the vigorous stirring that trade and
> migration have been doing for centuries.. :)
I meant the rest of the world. Arabic singing, shakuhachi, gamelan, sitar,
nose-flutes that make a particularly traditional buzzing noise on account of
the beetle trapped inside it ... The Blues Scale ...
Java Jive
<rich...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> Of course, once you've established that some feature of the performance _is_
> a wart then this follows. But, "pray consider it possible that you may be
> mistaken". It may be a feature, not a bug.
I repeat that if the Unthanks were capable of singing in tune, then
they would do it when not performing songs peculiarly local to their
tradition, but they don't.
> So, if you were to listen to, say, a Shetland fiddler and an English
> melodeon player perform their respective versions of, say, Speed the Plough,
> you wouldn't expect to be able to tell them apart from their playing ? I
> would expect to hear differences in, quite precisely, the 'style'.
> Predictable (on average) differences in favoured keys, speeds, emphases,
> possibly in the tricks of ornamentation ... style.
Quite! I deliberately and openly put two opposing views, both of
which have some merit, but, just like Andrew, you ignored the one that
didn't suit your reply!
> It doesn't discuss where our ideas come from about why we think <whatever
> style> is fit for it, or how the evidence of a recorded performance wouldn't
> be an important factor.
The evidence of a recorded performance is just that, one performance
that happened to be recorded, very often of someone well into
advancing years. It doesn't tell us how others would have performed
the same number, or even necessarily much about how much better the
same performer might have performed it in his/her youth.
The whole essence of the oral tradition is a mixture of learning by
imitation and of innovative creativity acting over many generations.
Even the most basic technical things that you might expect to be more
or less 'fixed' can wander startlingly by this process.(*)
Consequently, to regard a particular recording in the same manner as
we might regard a 'standard 1kg' in a national weights and measures
laboratory (a standard to which all weighing systems in a country must
adhere), is nonsensical, as you yourself seem to be aware. A
particular recording is a useful record of the words and tune, but
it's not a template to be slavishly copied by all future performers.
Such would fly in the face of the very oral tradition itself.
In fact, not even most classical musicians play by such rules. With
the exception of some early orchestras using reproduction or original
instruments, nowadays most music of the classical era is performed at
concert pitch, even though this was not the pitch that it was written
for(*).
* 'Concert pitch', arguably the most basic standard of modern
musical scale systems, where the a' note is standardised at 440Hz, is
actually a comparatively new standard dating only from May 1939,
introduced largely from need in a world of greater travel and the
arrival of the broadcasting and recording era. The variations in
pitch before 'Concert' are certainly surprising to any musician
encountering them for the first time.
First, to soften up for the big surprise in the next paragraph, music
for the highland pipes is traditionally written in A, presumably
because that was the modern scale to which it was closest when first
it came to be written down, but by a statistical process known
informally as "drunkard's walk" (slight error on slight error
accumulating over a long period of time) one can often now accompany
pipe tunes on a B Flat whistle by slight adjustment of the mouthpiece.
But the real surprise is in the following startling table (requiring a
fixed pitch font, if your newsreader doesn't use one, cut 'n' paste it
into Notepad or equivalent), which gives the pitch of the a' note of
modern concert pitch over time. Note that the lowest value is 373.7Hz
in 1648, and the highest 567Hz in 1619, differences of 40 and 60% from
their average spanning just 29 years!
Date a' (Hz)
Halberstadt Organ 1361 505.8
Church Pitch, Heidelberg 1511 377
Ditto, North Germany 1619 567.3
Ditto, Paris 1648 373.7
Schnitger's Organ, Hamburg 1688 489
Paris Opera 1699 404
Silbermann's Organ, Strassburg 1713 393
Handel's Tuning-Fork 1751 422.5
Bernhardt Schmidt's Organ, Cambridge 1759 395.2
Paris Opera 1810 423
London Philharmonic Orchestra 1826 433
Paris Opera 1858 428
French Standard Pitch (diapason normal) 1859 435
Covent Garden Opera 1879 450
Philharmonic Society 1896 439
Piano Manufacturers 1899 439
Military bands (Army Council) 1927 439
Source ...
Alexander Wood, The Physics Of Music, 7th ed'n
ISBN 0 412 13250 8
ISBN 0 412 21140 8
... quoting Alexander Ellis, History Of Musical Pitch.
--
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Richard Robinson
> On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 07:18:59 -0600, Richard Robinson
><rich...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>> Of course, once you've established that some feature of the performance _is_
>> a wart then this follows. But, "pray consider it possible that you may be
>> mistaken". It may be a feature, not a bug.
>
> I repeat that if the Unthanks were capable of singing in tune, then
> they would do it when not performing songs peculiarly local to their
> tradition, but they don't.
That's a "no", then ? Personally, I'd want to know more about them before
accepting any such proposition. I don't know.
>> So, if you were to listen to, say, a Shetland fiddler and an English
>> melodeon player perform their respective versions of, say, Speed the Plough,
>> you wouldn't expect to be able to tell them apart from their playing ? I
>> would expect to hear differences in, quite precisely, the 'style'.
>> Predictable (on average) differences in favoured keys, speeds, emphases,
>> possibly in the tricks of ornamentation ... style.
>
> Quite! I deliberately and openly put two opposing views, both of
> which have some merit, but, just like Andrew, you ignored the one that
> didn't suit your reply!
I said what I thought. I'm not marking your essay. Your 'Quite' seems to
suggest you agree with what I said ? In which case, if you think the
counter-arguments apply and need dealing with anyway, I think it's your job.
>> It doesn't discuss where our ideas come from about why we think <whatever
>> style> is fit for it, or how the evidence of a recorded performance wouldn't
>> be an important factor.
>
> The evidence of a recorded performance is just that, one performance
> that happened to be recorded, very often of someone well into
> advancing years. It doesn't tell us how others would have performed
> the same number, or even necessarily much about how much better the
> same performer might have performed it in his/her youth.
The evidence of other recordings might. Better would be to go meet the
people whose tradition is being pronounced upon, see what they think they're
doing.
> First, to soften up for the big surprise in the next paragraph, music
> for the highland pipes is traditionally written in A, presumably
> because that was the modern scale to which it was closest when first
> it came to be written down
"Presumably" ? I'd presumed it was because it makes no difference among
themselves, and makes everyone else's life easier, since the rest of the
world plays them in the sharp key. But I could be wrong.
> informally as "drunkard's walk" (slight error on slight error
> accumulating over a long period of time) one can often now accompany
> pipe tunes on a B Flat whistle by slight adjustment of the mouthpiece.
I suspect they've converged on a concert Bb due to working alongside the
other Bb instruments in a military band.
I spent a splendidly drunken half-hour once, playing duet on Bb clarinet
with someone playing highland pipes. In a rather small, echo-y bar. Great
fun, but it did empty the place, rather. Loud !
Jack Campin - bogus address
> for the highland pipes is traditionally written in A, presumably
> because that was the modern scale to which it was closest when first
> it came to be written down
Some of the earliest pipe tune manuscripts are written in D - maybe
because that suited the flute and it was easier to use a flute when
doing transcriptions? the people who did this left no record of why.
There's never been a Highland pipe pitched anywhere near D.
The most logical stave for pipe music is the one William Dixon used.
Four lines, so low G is the space below the bottom and high A is the
space above the top. No key signature, natch.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
Richard Robinson
>> First, to soften up for the big surprise in the next paragraph, music
>> for the highland pipes is traditionally written in A, presumably
>> because that was the modern scale to which it was closest when first
>> it came to be written down
>
> Some of the earliest pipe tune manuscripts are written in D - maybe
> because that suited the flute and it was easier to use a flute when
> doing transcriptions? the people who did this left no record of why.
> There's never been a Highland pipe pitched anywhere near D.
>
> The most logical stave for pipe music is the one William Dixon used.
> Four lines, so low G is the space below the bottom and high A is the
> space above the top. No key signature, natch.
Ah, I was hoping you might have something to say here, knowing more than I
do.
I've seen GHB sheets written without any keysig, certainly.
Java Jive
<rich...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> That's a "no", then ?
I don't know what you mean by a "no", I'm merely saying that I believe
that they sing out of tune because they can not sing in tune, not
because of some ancient regional 'style'.
> > Quite! I deliberately and openly put two opposing views, both of
> > which have some merit, but, just like Andrew, you ignored the one that
> > didn't suit your reply!
>
> Your 'Quite' seems to
> suggest you agree with what I said ?
Absolutely. I did originally put forward part of both sides of the
argument, after all.
> The evidence of other recordings might. Better would be to go meet the
> people whose tradition is being pronounced upon, see what they think they're
> doing.
I would favour the evidence of old recordings as being closer to
'source', but by all means ask them. As I've already inidicated in my
reply to Andre, I don't anticipate that their reply will be very
illuminating.
> "Presumably"? I'd presumed it was because it makes no difference among
> themselves, and makes everyone else's life easier, since the rest of the
> world plays them in the sharp key. But I could be wrong.
You are.
> > informally as "drunkard's walk" (slight error on slight error
> > accumulating over a long period of time) one can often now accompany
> > pipe tunes on a B Flat whistle by slight adjustment of the mouthpiece.
>
> I suspect they've converged on a concert Bb due to working alongside the
> other Bb instruments in a military band.
I originally said 'presumably' because that was my recollection, but I
couldn't be arsed to check it - now I have (my square brackets):
"In 1885 the pitch of the pipe A was found to be 441 c/s [Hz], which
is practically the present standard A (440). [...] and in 1954 the
pipe A was 459 c/s, while the standard B flat remains at 467 c/s."
Seamus MacNeill: "Piobaireachd", BBC Publications 1968
SBN: 563 07487 6
> I spent a splendidly drunken half-hour once, playing duet on Bb clarinet
> with someone playing highland pipes. In a rather small, echo-y bar. Great
> fun, but it did empty the place, rather. Loud !
:-)
Java Jive
Elsewhere in "Piobaireachd", I'm pretty sure it says that the rather
oddly spaced pipe scale turns out to be able to play in the greatest
number of pentatonic keys/scales, one of which is D. Perhaps the
music so written down happened to be pentatonic in D.
On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:31:44 +0000, Jack Campin - bogus address
<bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Some of the earliest pipe tune manuscripts are written in D - maybe
> because that suited the flute and it was easier to use a flute when
> doing transcriptions? the people who did this left no record of why.
> There's never been a Highland pipe pitched anywhere near D.
Steve at fivetrees
news:5MqdnSdRAsqpj7HW...@pipex.net...
> (PS: I've not heard the Unthanks, but I have a feeling I'm gonna hate 'em
> ;)
I've now heard them (courtesy of YouTube), and I like them. In particular
this interview was endearing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jCx8lm_eOk
In which they say they're not concerned about upsetting folk purists, find
it all rather weird and like overhearing a pub conversation, and they're
mainly interested in doing what they find interesting. Which is, IMHO, the
Right Answer.
Re purism/authenticity and other parts of this thread: there's a place for
purism, but *not* to the point of criticising/rubbishing new art. (Hey, it's
that "art" word.) Artists of all kinds (remember impressionism and the fuss
it caused?) have been called incompetent and worse for not obeying
convention. Bollocks to convention.
Re tunings: I'm mainly into songwriters, but mostly known (ish) as a blues
player. There's a particular note, about halfway between a minor 3rd and a
major 3rd, which is an essential part of any blues guitarist's vocabulary,
but isn't available on a piano ;).
Steve
--
http://www.fivetrees.com
Colin Irvine
following:
>I don't know what you mean by a "no", I'm merely saying that I believe
>that they sing out of tune because they can not sing in tune
They can sing in tune.
--
Colin Irvine
http://www.colinandpat.co.uk
Jack Campin - bogus address
>> because that suited the flute and it was easier to use a flute when
>> doing transcriptions? the people who did this left no record of why.
>> There's never been a Highland pipe pitched anywhere near D.
> oddly spaced pipe scale turns out to be able to play in the greatest
> number of pentatonic keys/scales, one of which is D. Perhaps the
> music so written down happened to be pentatonic in D.
No - they were writing the same tunes we know today, but with the pipe
scale written as CDE^FGABcd. There was an implicit transposition of a
fourth.
George Skene's MS of 1715 (on my website) used the modern A pitch, but
he played the fiddle as well as the pipes. There's less incentive to
transpose pipe tunes on the fiddle than there is on the flute. Same
goes for the Panmure MS "Baggpipe Tune" from 1675 (probably the oldest
notated Scottish pipe tune), which was arranged for scordatura fiddle.
(Also on my site, in the "Music of Dalkeith" pages). But these early
manuscripts had long been forgotten by the early 19th century, when
people first began to see that pipe tune notation could be practically
useful on an industrial scale. (I've just been reading Witold Rybcinski's
"One Good Turn: a history of the screwdriver and the screw" - Whitworth
invented the first standardized thread in 1841, a few years after Angus
Mackay started the standardization of Highland pipe music).
JF
> I spent a splendidly drunken half-hour once, playing duet on Bb clarinet
> with someone playing highland pipes. In a rather small, echo-y bar. Great
> fun, but it did empty the place, rather. Loud !
Ah, that's real folk music. Clears pubs. Mocked by musicians.
Enjoyed only by those who play it.
JF
We've got a fiddler like that.
Richard Robinson
Who are, by this definition, not musicians ...
Those that didn't run away enjoyed it. Well, I didn't hear any objections.
(Gentleman : someone who could mention bagpipes in the middle of a
discussion, and doesn't)
Richard Robinson
> On Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:34:42 -0600, Richard Robinson
><rich...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>> That's a "no", then ?
>
Clearer with a bit more context, maybe ?
> >> Of course, once you've established that some feature of the performance
> >> _is_ a wart then this follows. But, "pray consider it possible that you
> >> may be mistaken". It may be a feature, not a bug.
> >
> > I repeat that ...
>
> That's a "no", then ? ...
So, "no, you don't consider it possible that you may be mistaken".
Java Jive
unlikely.
On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 19:38:09 -0600, Richard Robinson
<rich...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> So, "no, you don't consider it possible that you may be mistaken".
--