Kelso Folk Club dragged into press feeding frenzy
David Kilpatrick
complaining about another regular, who performs George Formby songs
(very well, and with an excellent Gibson gold series 1930s banjulele).
The complaint is about the racist nature of these songs which include
words like 'chink', 'kaffir' and 'zulu' which is unacceptable in this
age of zero tolerance to race hate.
I'm due to make some sort of comment on Radio Five Live, 6.55pm (maybe
they record the call then and edit it? Not sure). Already fended off two
news agency reporters, but won't do any good - it will be in the
nationals tomorrow I guess.
We don't intend to censor songs as this is a thin end of a large wedge
covering 300 years of political, music-hall, cornkister, Dixie, blues,
jazz, rock, rap and countless other genres. Race now, gender tomorrow,
war and violence next - there won't be any ballads left you can sing.
I've just heard that other radio and TV stations are chasing the story,
the Daily Record has phoned the pub, and our George Formby enthusiast
has gone into hiding.
This may sound like a joke but it's potentially not a joke. There are
influential people who would like to see the performance and
broadcasting of a big chunk of current music banned (ref - Chumbawamba's
collaboration with DJ Fusion). Half-a-dozen old George Formby ditties
would be an easy target, and it only takes a formal repetition of the
complaint against our club, made to the Police Hate Crimes Unit (sounds
like something out of 1984) to bring a case to court.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/northamptonshire/7300167.stm
No more singing 'The Three Gypsies' then...
David
--
Icon Publications Ltd, Maxwell Place, Maxwell Lane, Kelso TD5 7BB
Company Registered in England No 2122711. Registered Office 12 Exchange
St, Retford, Notts DN22 6BL
VAT Reg No GB458101463
Trading as Icon Publications Ltd, Photoworld Club and Troubadour.uk.com
www.iconpublications.com - www.troubadour.uk.com - www.f2photo.co.uk -
www.photoclubalpha.com - www.minoltaclub.co.uk
Tel +44 1573 226032
Marjorie
of putting a sensible case for non-censorship of such material without
endorsing any racist sentiments, or implying that it would be acceptable
to use these words so casually now.
The terms that now cause offence were probably so common as to have been
unremarkable at the time these songs were written . You can't separate a
song from its roots, and to try to ban Formby (or Steven Foster, or even
our old friend Anon) would be like banning Don Giovanni on the grounds
that its assumptions, plot and language are unacceptably sexist.
All the best!
--
Marjorie
To reply, replace dontusethisaddress with marje
Richard Robinson
> David Kilpatrick wrote:
>> Local paper got a letter from one our more sensitive regulars
>> complaining about another regular, who performs George Formby songs
>> (very well, and with an excellent Gibson gold series 1930s banjulele).
>>
> Good luck, David, we'll be rooting for you! I'm sure you'll be capable
> of putting a sensible case for non-censorship of such material without
> endorsing any racist sentiments, or implying that it would be acceptable
> to use these words so casually now.
> The terms that now cause offence were probably so common as to have been
> unremarkable at the time these songs were written . You can't separate a
> song from its roots, and to try to ban Formby (or Steven Foster, or even
> our old friend Anon) would be like banning Don Giovanni on the grounds
> that its assumptions, plot and language are unacceptably sexist.
Or Tam Lin. Which is a discussion I have memories of ...
Try "They came for George Formby, and I said nothing because I can't
stand the banjo" ?
> All the best!
Yes.
--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem
My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html
David Kilpatrick
> All the best!
>
Well, Radio Five Live presumably got hold of the main participants as I
awaited their call and it never came... delayed eating too. Typical :-)
Of course I couldn't listen either as I was in a quiet area of the house
to be better placed for sound/dogs/fishtanks/TV noise not interfering.
David
Jack Campin - bogus address
> complaining about another regular, who performs George Formby songs
> (very well, and with an excellent Gibson gold series 1930s banjulele).
> The complaint is about the racist nature of these songs which include
> words like 'chink', 'kaffir' and 'zulu' which is unacceptable in this
> age of zero tolerance to race hate.
Next time I come down there I must remember to bring my copies of
Stephen Foster, Kipling's Barrack Room Ballads and Ritchie's books
of Edinburgh kids' songs with me. I could pick which ones to do
by counting out "eeny, meeny, miny, mo...".
==== j a c k at c a m p i n . m e . u k === <http://www.campin.me.uk> ====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557
CD-ROMs and free stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts
sprocket
> Local paper got a letter from one our more sensitive regulars
> complaining about another regular, who performs George Formby songs
> (very well, and with an excellent Gibson gold series 1930s banjulele).
>
> The complaint is about the racist nature of these songs which include
> words like 'chink', 'kaffir' and 'zulu' which is unacceptable in this
> age of zero tolerance to race hate.
It might be worth contacting Derek Schofield, he occasionally writes for
the Guardian and i'm sure this is the kind of issue they'd be interested in.
JS
dennis@fake
One old boy, probably nearer to 80 than 70, got up and sang the most
racist, obscene version of My Brother Sylveste I've ever heard. It
brought the house down.
sprocket
> One old boy, probably nearer to 80 than 70, got up and sang the most
> racist, obscene version of My Brother Sylveste I've ever heard. It
> brought the house down.
Could have been my dad if he were still alive. "Killed forty n*****s in
the west, he takes no rest"...
Temprance
Makes me wonder why I did a short course on the history of folk
music. These songs are history. They may have some offensive
words/phrases but they are part of times gone by and History. It would
be insane to not sing them for this reason. I suppose that a
disclaimer at the beginning of the session could be done. I grew up on
George Formby and have memories of all my uncles and aunts play8ing
banjos/ combs and izal and even us youngsters singing them.
We could start a list of 100's of offensive songs but I don't see the
point. If you think about it most songs with half decent lyrics have
something offensive in it.
Jacqui
Arthur Marshall
from sprocket <j...@spam.cop.uk> contains these words:
> dennis@fake wrote:
Interesting.
No doubt it was very funny, but odd that you can't bring yourself to
actually write the word?
As per my comment on another thread, it's either OK or it isn't. As you
obviously think that it isn't, shouldn't we have the guts to say so?
Words and how they are used matter, because they affect the way you
think. And possibly we don't think that racism, in the sense of
believing some races are subhuman and should be treated as such, is
funny any more.
Or is it OK because it once was? Back to folksingers changing a
lightbulb, i think.
Some attitudues, and therefore some songs, are probably best confined to
history and a dustbin. If that means someone has to stop playing a
banjo, I suppose that's just a collateral benefit...
--
Arthur Marshall
Caller for Traditional Dances
nb Lord Byron's Maggot
www.users.zetnet.co.uk/barndancer
www.myspace.com/athurhimself
sprocket
>> Could have been my dad if he were still alive. "Killed forty n*****s in
>> the west, he takes no rest"...
>
> Interesting.
>
> No doubt it was very funny, but odd that you can't bring yourself to
> actually write the word?
>
I didn't say it was funny. I was reporting what he sang, in a way
everyone would understand given the context, and without actually
writing words which would be considered offensive taken out of context.
It should be noted that when my father was alive, racist expressions
were much more accepted as part of everyday conversation. "where's Mum?"
"She's run off with a black man." Or my granny's weary expression of
exasperation at children's misbehaviour: "No wonder n****s eat them!" No
racial antagonism was expressed or intended in either case
> As per my comment on another thread, it's either OK or it isn't.
Or it's somewhere inbetween. Context is important. Conversation
overheard circa 1978 in a works in Yorkshire: "I've broken this f*****
thing. Can anyone fix it?" "That'll need weldin'. See that nigger over
there? If he can't weld it, no one can." Spot the racism in that, and
chew on it.
JS
j...@folktunefinder.com
> overheard circa 1978 in a works in Yorkshire: "I've broken this f*****
> thing. Can anyone fix it?" "That'll need weldin'. See that nigger over
> there? If he can't weld it, no one can." Spot the racism in that, and
> chew on it.
>
> JS
Now *that* depends on whether it was a coal mine or not...
Andrew Robert Breen
Arthur Marshall <art...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Some attitudues, and therefore some songs, are probably best confined to
>history and a dustbin. If that means someone has to stop playing a
>banjo, I suppose that's just a collateral benefit...
And if that isn't .sig material, I don't know what is.
--
Andy Breen, not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales
"The internet, that wonderful tool for bringing us into contact
with things that make us wish we could scrub our brains out with
dental floss.." (Charlie Stross)
johnb
> Arthur Marshall wrote:
<snip>
> > As per my comment on another thread, it's either OK or it isn't.
>
> Or it's somewhere inbetween. Context is important. Conversation
> overheard circa 1978 in a works in Yorkshire: "I've broken this f*****
> thing. Can anyone fix it?" "That'll need weldin'. See that nigger over
> there? If he can't weld it, no one can." Spot the racism in that, and
> chew on it.
>
> JS
If the context is important, I suppose it's up to the one using the
terms to make the context clear from the start and not just assume
that people will supply the correct context for themselves. I am a
little uncomfortable with this over-protective PC world we are now
supposed to live in, but then again, we often don't help our cause by
just wading in with hob-nailed boots. Er, not that I'm suggesting
that people who wear hob-nailed boots are lacking in care and
consideration, you understand :-]
We have themed singers' nights from time to time and a couple of years
back we had a "non-pc" night. I don't think we had any complaints.
Jack Campin - bogus address
>> complaining about another regular, who performs George Formby songs
>> (very well, and with an excellent Gibson gold series 1930s banjulele).
http://www.kelsofolk.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/rogeretc.jpg
>> The complaint is about the racist nature of these songs which include
>> words like 'chink', 'kaffir' and 'zulu' which is unacceptable in this
>> age of zero tolerance to race hate.
> It might be worth contacting Derek Schofield, he occasionally writes for
> the Guardian and i'm sure this is the kind of issue they'd be interested
> in.
So they can just add "racist" to their official in-house stereotype of
tankard-swilling Arran-jumper-and-sandal-wearing finger-in-ear singers?
We have about as much chance of getting fair coverage out of those shits
as Sheila Chandra would have of getting a good review in "Identity".
David Kilpatrick
> Or it's somewhere inbetween. Context is important. Conversation
> overheard circa 1978 in a works in Yorkshire: "I've broken this f*****
> thing. Can anyone fix it?" "That'll need weldin'. See that nigger over
> there? If he can't weld it, no one can." Spot the racism in that, and
> chew on it.
>
At school in Maltby, 1969, my classmate Geoff Stables was into the
Northern Soul scene and all-nighters. He also had an unusual face, shock
of blond hair and blue eyes but features which if he'd been black, would
have looked good. He was sometimes called a 'white nig' and he referred
to the black guys he knew on the soul scene as 'nigs'. It was not meant
offensively, it was a teenage slang use ('nigger' would not have been
OK, I'm sure). They were his friends/heroes and he'd have been happy to
have been one of them. That scene was completely 'integrated' then. No
idea if it still exists.
I'm sure Charlie Williams, the black comedian from Barnsley who built
himself a very nice house you could see from the M1 near Worsbrough
Bridge, used his colour to good effect. I have a photograph which was
used in the Guardian and other pubs around 1970, which I shot when I was
at the school in 1968:
http://www.alamy.com/thumbs/3/%7B024FE6EE-BC5B-415F-8A01-CEBA45AC3C24%7D/AG3G6R.jpg
There was only one West Indian family in Maltby, they had little girl
twins (about 3 yrs old here I think) and the whole town including the
kids at school made a great fuss of them.
I gather there's an exceptionally good folk club in a converted
community venue just over the road from the school now, keep seeing good
guests advertised there but it's a very long drive from Scotland.
David
David Kilpatrick
on Tuesday and interviewing the idiot who started all this without
realising that you do NOT get the press involved. I've lost almost a
day's work so far because of this. The resulting news reports will be
contrived, boring and do nothing but stir it up pointlessly.
Mr Keith Ryan, who wrote the complaint to the paper, runs a serious risk
of a lynch-mob if he turns up at the session tonight. There are genuine
issues to do with racism, prejudices and intolerance in our region as
everywhere and someone performing George Formby songs doesn't even
register on the scale compared to late night drunken assaults on Indian
and Chinese restaurant owners, bricks through Asian-owned shop windows
when the owner won't sell 14-year-old neds booze and fags, etc. These
get the usual court reports and occasional substantial coverage (if
someone is injured badly enough to make a good photo) but nothing like
the ridiculous interest shown by the media this week.
Keith is just a spectator, his wife Cate is a good fiddle player and
will be missed if they decide the club is a hostile place to turn up
after landing us in this.
David
Rafe Culpin
> > David Kilpatrick wrote:
> >> Local paper got a letter from one our more sensitive regulars
> >> complaining about another regular, who performs George Formby
> songs >> (very well, and with an excellent Gibson gold series 1930s
> banjulele).
> >>
> >> The complaint is about the racist nature of these songs which
> include >> words like 'chink', 'kaffir' and 'zulu' which is
> unacceptable in this
(I didn't see the original of this)
Did this sensitive regular try saying something to the club organisers, before
going public with a letter to the paper?
--
To reply email rafe, at the address cix co uk
Dominic Cronin
<icon...@btconnect.com> wrote:
>Local paper got a letter from one our more sensitive regulars
>complaining about another regular, who performs George Formby songs
>(very well, and with an excellent Gibson gold series 1930s banjulele).
>
>The complaint is about the racist nature of these songs which include
>words like 'chink', 'kaffir' and 'zulu' which is unacceptable in this
>age of zero tolerance to race hate.
>
I'm quite sure the zulus would be offended to hear this. Since when
was zulu a term of race hate. (btw - I am offended at the ignorance
which allows people to write headline-ese in place of correct English
- wtf is "race hate"?)
>I'm due to make some sort of comment on Radio Five Live, 6.55pm (maybe
>they record the call then and edit it? Not sure). Already fended off two
>news agency reporters, but won't do any good - it will be in the
>nationals tomorrow I guess.
>
>This may sound like a joke but it's potentially not a joke. There are
>influential people who would like to see the performance and
>broadcasting of a big chunk of current music banned (ref - Chumbawamba's
>collaboration with DJ Fusion). Half-a-dozen old George Formby ditties
>would be an easy target, and it only takes a formal repetition of the
>complaint against our club, made to the Police Hate Crimes Unit (sounds
>like something out of 1984) to bring a case to court.
Shouldn't that be "Police hate crime"? I should think so too - that's
what we pay them for.
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/northamptonshire/7300167.stm
>
>No more singing 'The Three Gypsies' then...
>
I've sung "Big buck nigger with his sea boots on" and got no more
tutting disapproval than I got for singing "and we shall live more
happy lives, free from squalling brats and wives".
One of the reasons we do our best not to bowdlerise our traditions is
that they are more valuable delivered intact. With a tip of the hat to
Godwin, I'd like to mention that one of the things Hitler remains
famous for was the burning of books. This isn't so very far away.
Funnily enough - the word nigger in sea shanties has probably survived
one bowdlerisation already.
--
Dominic Cronin
Amsterdam
Stephen Kellett
<icon...@btconnect.com> writes
>The complaint is about the racist nature of these songs which include
>words like 'chink', 'kaffir' and 'zulu' which is unacceptable in this
>age of zero tolerance to race hate.
Well, I note there are 19 posts in this thread and 2 in another, but my
instant reaction is "For fucks sake, get a life", directed at the
complainee, not yourself.
Part of what makes culture, culture, is a nod and a wink to the past,
even if you no longer agree with the sentiments expressed in
writings/songs/etc of said times past.
Roll on 40 years into the future and we won't be able to make cruel
jokes about accordion players or the wielders of the bagpipe when
compared to slicing an onion in two.
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/northamptonshire/7300167.stm
Ooeer, thats only an hours drive from me. Even more worrying.
You know, time was when I didn't believe a "nanny state" existed, and
thought it was more a politic posturing type of thing. But the older I
get the more I realise there is way too much interfering in things that
should be left alone.
A friend of mine, a council official, left to spend a year in the
Dominican Republic, doing similar work. When she came back, the one
thing that really stuck with me was when she said, "you know, in the UK,
we are so over-regulated compared to other countries, its a real shame".
Just one year away and she could see what we can't see.
Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
Reg Office: 24 Windmill Walk, Sutton, Ely, Cambs CB6 2NH.
David Kilpatrick
Well, he's made grumbling noises for ever about these songs but never
bothered to notice the racism/sexism/militarism in countless other songs
- so we have ignored him. He has targeted a neighbour he doesn't like,
simple as that.
I am now all over the national press - misquoted in the Daily Mail
Scottish edition with a full page devoted to the story, and the same in
The Times nationally - both did a great job pulling up real info about
Formby, about his anti-racialist stance and his investigation for being
pro enemy aliens during WWII (exonerated). They made the complainers
look like total prats.
And we got over 100 people into the club tonight, you couldn't move.
Roger performed 'Mr Wu's An Air Raid Warden Now' to massive applause and
our whistleblowers were conspicuous by absence. It was amazing. Like the
absolute victory of common sense.
Viz could make a good 'Modern Parents' episode out of this one. The pub
is delighted. They get on TV next week, and they sold more beer tonight
than ever before. Back in Tuesday they were so worried about this they
thought the folk club would have to close.
David
Stephen Kellett
<icon...@btconnect.com> writes
>Viz could make a good 'Modern Parents' episode out of this one. The pub
>is delighted. They get on TV next week, and they sold more beer tonight
>than ever before. Back in Tuesday they were so worried about this they
>thought the folk club would have to close.
Excellent.
David Kilpatrick
http://www.kelsofolk.co.uk/index.php/2008/05/03/good-formby-bad-form-club-hits-the-headlines/
David
Java Jive
<icon...@btconnect.com> wrote:
>
>
> I am now all over the national press - misquoted in the Daily Mail
> Scottish edition with a full page devoted to the story, and the same in
> The Times nationally - both did a great job pulling up real info about
> Formby, about his anti-racialist stance and his investigation for being
> pro enemy aliens during WWII (exonerated). They made the complainers
> look like total prats.
>
> And we got over 100 people into the club tonight, you couldn't move.
> Roger performed 'Mr Wu's An Air Raid Warden Now' to massive applause and
> our whistleblowers were conspicuous by absence. It was amazing. Like the
> absolute victory of common sense.
>
> Viz could make a good 'Modern Parents' episode out of this one. The pub
> is delighted. They get on TV next week, and they sold more beer tonight
> than ever before. Back in Tuesday they were so worried about this they
> thought the folk club would have to close.
Congrats. Always good when common sense prevails.
(Partly makes up for the victory in the London Mayoral elections of
someone with the public persona of a buffoon ... Jeez, what is our
country coming to?)
Colin Irvine
<icon...@btconnect.com> squeezed out the following:
>We have a web page up with links to some of the press stories:
>
>http://www.kelsofolk.co.uk/index.php/2008/05/03/good-formby-bad-form-club-hits-the-headlines/
If the Ryans' objection is that they find the language used offensive
then too bad for them. There are folk songs I find offensive but I
wouldn't dream of trying to have them proscribed.
If the language used runs foul of any law then you've a problem. Has
any useful opinion been offered on this aspect?
--
Colin Irvine
http://www.colinandpat.co.uk
Arthur Marshall
from Java Jive <ja...@evij.com> contains these words:
Ah, that's the trouble with democracy. I remember a union meeting when
one of the old timers complained about having to put something to the
vote because you might get the wrong answer. And the light bulbs were
all better in those days. And you could call a black guy a nigger and we
all thought it was a jolly good laugh.
Perhaps it's a divergence between the traditional singer and those of us
brought up in the contemporary folk world. Folk for Fascism maybe, as a
counterweight to the insidious influence of rock against racism.
Of course the pub was full. Bernard Manning used to get an audience of
thousands. I'm just not sure that that's the audience you should be
aiming at in Kelso. There again, maybe its just a shortage of material
you can play on a uke banjo.
Times change, as the old Roman bods used to say, and we have to change
with them. There was a point to being politically correct before it
degenerated into a term of abuse - words, as I have said elswehere, are
important. And I'm still siding with your whistleblower - an
interesting term of phrase in itself to be picked to denigrate someone.
David Kilpatrick
Only precedent, which is that so far no complaint has been upheld
against George Formby lyrics but one or two instances of audience
protest have happened. That can happen with any song.
We do have at least one lawyer present, and often enough one policeman.
Neither has ever expressed any concern in the past. Keith Ryan suggests
that people of 'ethnic origin' have come to the club in the past and
never returned. This must something he knows and we don't. Many people
come back to the club every year when their 'event' is on (ram sales,
rugby sevens, union show, angling fair etc) - discover it one year, and
then make it a regular Friday night visit when staying here.
David
David Kilpatrick
> Of course the pub was full. Bernard Manning used to get an audience of
> thousands. I'm just not sure that that's the audience you should be
> aiming at in Kelso. There again, maybe its just a shortage of material
> you can play on a uke banjo.
Well, the pub was full with more than the usual number of young
alternative/contemporary players. One did a pretty fair acoustic
rendering of 'Psychokiller' and even got some middle-aged accompaniment
- and the comment from someone, 'do you realise it's 30 years since that
was recorded?'.
I have occasionally played fingerstyle on the banjulele when tuning it
for Rog (enthiastic playing tends to shift the bridge and it needs a
quick setup). It's a lovely instrument and the sound of a really good
one like the Gibson is far, far removed from the harsh bark you get out
of the cheaper ones - even vintage John Greys are nowhere near as refined.
>
> Times change, as the old Roman bods used to say, and we have to change
> with them. There was a point to being politically correct before it
> degenerated into a term of abuse - words, as I have said elswehere, are
> important. And I'm still siding with your whistleblower - an
> interesting term of phrase in itself to be picked to denigrate someone.
>
I think that's what he thinks he is, not what everyone else thinks. Most
people just see someone who is annoyed or jealous because one individual
doing a certain repertoire gets lots of applause and has confidence.
Words are important. When hunting was legal, I would never have sung
John Peel or the Kielder Hunt (I'd skip the track in one CD with the
Kielder Hunt). Now I'm considering doing John Peel, it was a song I was
brought up on in Cumbria, and it's more a part of history than a
celebration of something still happening.
What matters in this is that we don't start censoring what can and can't
be played or sung at the club. If someone does something which results
in several audience members booing or telling them to stop, that's OK -
that's their risk (it has happened with rugger songs inappropriately
started).
We've had one visitor walk out because of Roger's humorous songs - he
did one, maybe not a Formby song, about a vicar. A guest of mine left
early with words of complaint as he did so, and apologised to me later,
explaining that he was a committed Christian and found any song making
fun of the clergy unacceptable.
David
Jack Campin - bogus address
>>> Roger performed 'Mr Wu's An Air Raid Warden Now' to massive applause
>>> and our whistleblowers were conspicuous by absence. It was amazing.
>>> Like the absolute victory of common sense.
> thousands. I'm just not sure that that's the audience you should be
> aiming at in Kelso.
Anybody after Bernard Manning material would have wanted their money
back.
I've heard this guy doing his George Formby act, and you would have to
be the sort of person who wants to be offended to be offended. (It's a
pity English syntax isn't agglutinative enough to construct a passive
form of "offensive", there are lots of people queuing up to be described
as such).
There are a few consciously racist items in the UK folk repertoire -
"Dublin in the Rare Old Times" is one (look at Pete St John's lyrics
site, it's obvious where he's coming from). Formby songs aren't among
them.
Temprance
<bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
snipped
>
>I've heard this guy doing his George Formby act, and you would have to
>be the sort of person who wants to be offended to be offended. (It's a
>pity English syntax isn't agglutinative enough to construct a passive
>form of "offensive", there are lots of people queuing up to be described
>as such).
And a good Banjo player he is. To take away George Formby from his
routine would be like throwing cold water on a depressed person!
Jacqui
Colin Irvine
<icon...@btconnect.com> squeezed out the following:
>Colin Irvine wrote:
>> On Sat, 03 May 2008 13:34:03 +0100, David Kilpatrick
>> <icon...@btconnect.com> squeezed out the following:
>>
>>> We have a web page up with links to some of the press stories:
>>>
>>> http://www.kelsofolk.co.uk/index.php/2008/05/03/good-formby-bad-form-club-hits-the-headlines/
>>
>> If the Ryans' objection is that they find the language used offensive
>> then too bad for them. There are folk songs I find offensive but I
>> wouldn't dream of trying to have them proscribed.
>>
>> If the language used runs foul of any law then you've a problem. Has
>> any useful opinion been offered on this aspect?
>>
>
>Only precedent, which is that so far no complaint has been upheld
>against George Formby lyrics but one or two instances of audience
>protest have happened. That can happen with any song.
Quite.
>We do have at least one lawyer present, and often enough one policeman.
>Neither has ever expressed any concern in the past.
Sounds good - it's what I would've expected.
>Keith Ryan suggests
>that people of 'ethnic origin' have come to the club in the past and
>never returned.
An example which, in all conscience, he should follow.
William Black
"Jack Campin - bogus address" <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bogus-0A3C00....@news.news.demon.net...
> Next time I come down there I must remember to bring my copies of
> Stephen Foster, Kipling's Barrack Room Ballads and Ritchie's books
> of Edinburgh kids' songs with me. I could pick which ones to do
> by counting out "eeny, meeny, miny, mo...".
I don't think there's anything terribly racist in the Kipling stuff.
The worst of them, 'Fuzzy Wuzzy', is about the Sudanese breaking a British
infantry square, the only time it was ever done.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
Stephen Kellett
<icon...@btconnect.com> writes
>We have a web page up with links to some of the press stories:
>
>http://www.kelsofolk.co.uk/index.php/2008/05/03/good-formby-bad-form-clu
>b-hits-the-headlines/
Interesting. "politically conscious New Age".
I've yet to meet anyone that I would consider to be "new age" to be so
limited in their outlook.
Taken to extremes, over a long period of time, the attitude expressed by
the protesters could ultimately mean certain parts of history are
effectively air-brushed out of history, simply by omission. I struggle
with the concept of being politically conscious while at the same time
being unaware of the past because "we don't talk about that anymore".
Having read the lyrics I almost feel as if I should learn to sing (I
can't sing, really), so I can sing songs like this in protest to the
behaviour of people like your protesters.
And from a different newspaper, quoting the people protesting:
"There have been people of ethnic origin who have gone along to the club
nights and have simply not gone back."
Gosh. And have there been people of a non-ethic (*) been there and not
gone back? Of course there have. Talk about selective in the
interpretation of peoples choices and actions. Perhaps they didn't like
the music or songs, and perhaps that had nothing to do with the words
and everything to do with the performance, or just that they can't make
it this week?
I would be interesting if the matter is taken to the police. If he
really believes in his protest he will attend the club and will hear the
song so that he can carry through his threat. Otherwise, the protests
are somewhat cowardly.
Do we have a right to free speech in this country? Does that right cover
already existing songs of historical record (as opposed to a modern song
written since the hate laws deliberately composed to engender feelings
of hate)?
Stephen
* whatever that vacuous phrase means - perhaps "ethnic" means non-white,
non-English, non-UK, no-whoever is living here already. If anything the
use of "ethnic" in his phrasing is incorrect/racist - the ethnic people
are from here, the UK, the non-ethnic are from somewhere else. Discuss.
living in East Anglia, which according to some people and many surveys
is awash with immigrants, I meet them all the time. I've yet to meet one
that is deserving of the crap piled upon them by the media. Which is why
I'm so harsh on people that complain about racism completing missing the
point of the context from whence these songs came.
This sort of crap really does make my blood boil. I'm despite the above
text, really, lost for words about this crap.
Don't worry, you are safe. I won't try to learn to sing. I might just
get a T-shirt with the lyrics printed instead. It'll offend less people
than my singing will.
Jack Campin - bogus address
> And from a different newspaper, quoting the people protesting:
> "There have been people of ethnic origin who have gone along to
> the club nights and have simply not gone back."
"People of ethnic origin"? How fucking condescending can you get?
It's going to be "take me to your community leader" next.
> This sort of crap really does make my blood boil. I'm despite
> the above text, really, lost for words about this crap.
I'm intrigued to know if I've met either of the Ryans. People
who could start a brawl in a phonebox are common enough in the
folk scene but I haven't knowingly run into one at Kelso.
Meanwhile. Seen this reported in any widely available medium in
the UK?
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/may2008/turk-m05.shtml
http://tinyurl.com/5pcqxc
You can bet it would have been reported if it had been in Tibet.
What's the Ryans' take on workers being sprayed with CS, water-cannoned
and battered with nightsticks? Nowhere near as serious as a pensioner
singing with a ukulele?
arthurm.marshall
from Jack Campin - bogus address <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> contains these
words:
> Meanwhile. Seen this reported in any widely available medium in
> the UK?
> http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/may2008/turk-m05.shtml
> http://tinyurl.com/5pcqxc
> You can bet it would have been reported if it had been in Tibet.
> What's the Ryans' take on workers being sprayed with CS, water-cannoned
> and battered with nightsticks? Nowhere near as serious as a pensioner
> singing with a ukulele?
Once upon a time, when I was young and my beard was brown and I was not
yet taller than my hair, somone in a folk club who was interested in the
world at large would have written a song about the above events (for
those who couldn't be bothered to look it up, it's about a few people
being battered in Turkey).
However, as is obvious by this thread, it is more important these days
to use any minimal musical talent one may have to sing George Formby
songs. First things first, after all.
--
Colin Irvine
<arthurm....@zetnet.co.uk> squeezed out the following:
>Once upon a time, when I was young and my beard was brown and I was not
>yet taller than my hair, somone in a folk club who was interested in the
>world at large would have written a song about the above events (for
>those who couldn't be bothered to look it up, it's about a few people
>being battered in Turkey).
>
>However, as is obvious by this thread, it is more important these days
>to use any minimal musical talent one may have to sing George Formby
>songs. First things first, after all.
You're not from Tunbridge Wells, are you?
allan connochie
"arthurm.marshall" <arthurm....@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3130303032353...@zetnet.co.uk...
It is a 'Folk and Live Music' club, hence the reptoire in an evening's
session is quite diverse, ranging from folk music through 60s music right up
to material from today's pop charts. Formby might not be everyone's thing
but out of a typical session which lasts the best part of 4 hours or so
Roger might only sing a couple of songs. So it leaves plenty of room for
other types of material and David has already suggested to people that the
best way to make a point is to do it through song!
Allan