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The Archers: an everyday story of feminist career women folk
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RH
Mar 10, 2013, 4:31:43 PM3/10/13
to
The Archers: an everyday story of feminist career women folk
Posted on March 10, 2013by Robert Henderson
Robert Henderson
In their delightfully naïve and blundering way the crazed feminists
who control the Archers made Alice Carter, the daughter of Brian
Aldridge (who is the richest man in Ambridge), an engineer. Feminist
message: women can be engineers just like men. Wildly improbable as
that was, they then had her scratching around for an engineering job
for ages before she found one close to home. This job was portrayed
as boring, frustrating and completely unworthy of Alice’s engineering
talents from the word go.
Despite this undistinguished and very meagre work background, Alice
is suddenly “head-hunted” by a company abroad. She decides to go to
an interview in Canada with a view to moving to the country. The fact
that she is newly married to Chris Carter who has recently acquired
his own farrier’s business with the aid of a huge bank loan is
presented as inconsequential. What matters to the Archers’ creators
is that she is a career woman who needs to pursue her career and to
hell with any other consideration, such as what is her husband going
to do.
Alice arranges the interview in Canada whilst swearing blind to her
husband that she is not looking for a job abroad. When Chris learns
she is going and is allowed to make some complaint about her
selfishness (the only Archers character allowed to do so
unambiguously) , Alice sweeps aside his objections by saying he can
come to Canada as well. Outrageously (in feminist eyes) Chris points
out that he wants to live in Ambridge and, even if he didn’t, it
would be next to impossible to sell the farrier’s business. All to no
avail as Alice heads to the land of the Maple Leaf. Feminist message:
a woman’s career is more important than anything.
Being a regular male character is a risky business in the Archers. If
they are not going gaga like Jack Woolley, they are plummeting to
their death from a roof (Nigel Pargetter) or topping themselves with a
shotgun like the gamekeeper Greg Turner. No sooner is Alice on her
way than Chris is felled by a horse kicking him and he presently
lies unconscious on a ventilator in hospital. Will he be Ambridge’s
first quadriplegic, will he remain in a permanent vegetative state or
will he solve all the feminist’s problems by dying thus allowing
Alice to head for Mountie country?
But it has not all been extreme feminist fantasy in recent months.
There are signs that the ultimate politically correct wet dream
which could be conceived for Ambridge is about to made soap opera
flesh. The latest ethnic minority addition to Ambridge is Iftikar
Shah. He has become the maths tutor for Freddie Pargetter and has
rapidly advanced to a sort of step father in waiting figure. Iftikar
has long intimate talks with him and with his mother, Elizabeth
Pargetter, the widow of the unfortunate Nigel who was suddenly deemed
too posh for the Archers and was so ruthlessly dispatched. Iftikar
is appearing in this role ever more frequently and has accompanied
Elizabeth and the Pargetter children (Freddie and Lily) on their first
group outing. It is a sound bet that the we are heading for another
multiracial coupling in the Archer family with Elizabeth and Iftikar
getting spliced before the year is out to the sound of church bells …
er…the cry of the Muezzin. Iftikar being a Muslim would of course
require Elizabeth to convert to Islam. Elizabeth is still just of
childbearing age so we could of course expect the odd Mohammed and
Fatima to come along in due course.
But it has not all been about romance amongst the young and middle
aged. Lillian Bellamy (who must be nearing 70 in the context of the
series) and the ineffably wet Paul have been keeping the flag flying
for geriatric sex . This they have done by behaving like teenagers in
their first passion, with acting of an ineptitude startling even for
the Archers. The only glimmer of hope is that Paul may turn out to be
a nutter and suddenly go on a murderous rampage. The pc message is of
course the anti-age discrimination one of sex is for the old as well
as the young.
The BBC wound up the Archer’s message board on 28th February. Could it
be that they realised that the ever increasing amount of pc tosh they
are offering would result in an unceasing avalanche of ridicule and
straight criticism?
Read more at
http://englandcalling.wordpress.com/2013/03/10/the-archers-an-everyday-story-of-feminist-career-women-folk/
Posted on March 10, 2013by Robert Henderson
Robert Henderson
In their delightfully naïve and blundering way the crazed feminists
who control the Archers made Alice Carter, the daughter of Brian
Aldridge (who is the richest man in Ambridge), an engineer. Feminist
message: women can be engineers just like men. Wildly improbable as
that was, they then had her scratching around for an engineering job
for ages before she found one close to home. This job was portrayed
as boring, frustrating and completely unworthy of Alice’s engineering
talents from the word go.
Despite this undistinguished and very meagre work background, Alice
is suddenly “head-hunted” by a company abroad. She decides to go to
an interview in Canada with a view to moving to the country. The fact
that she is newly married to Chris Carter who has recently acquired
his own farrier’s business with the aid of a huge bank loan is
presented as inconsequential. What matters to the Archers’ creators
is that she is a career woman who needs to pursue her career and to
hell with any other consideration, such as what is her husband going
to do.
Alice arranges the interview in Canada whilst swearing blind to her
husband that she is not looking for a job abroad. When Chris learns
she is going and is allowed to make some complaint about her
selfishness (the only Archers character allowed to do so
unambiguously) , Alice sweeps aside his objections by saying he can
come to Canada as well. Outrageously (in feminist eyes) Chris points
out that he wants to live in Ambridge and, even if he didn’t, it
would be next to impossible to sell the farrier’s business. All to no
avail as Alice heads to the land of the Maple Leaf. Feminist message:
a woman’s career is more important than anything.
Being a regular male character is a risky business in the Archers. If
they are not going gaga like Jack Woolley, they are plummeting to
their death from a roof (Nigel Pargetter) or topping themselves with a
shotgun like the gamekeeper Greg Turner. No sooner is Alice on her
way than Chris is felled by a horse kicking him and he presently
lies unconscious on a ventilator in hospital. Will he be Ambridge’s
first quadriplegic, will he remain in a permanent vegetative state or
will he solve all the feminist’s problems by dying thus allowing
Alice to head for Mountie country?
But it has not all been extreme feminist fantasy in recent months.
There are signs that the ultimate politically correct wet dream
which could be conceived for Ambridge is about to made soap opera
flesh. The latest ethnic minority addition to Ambridge is Iftikar
Shah. He has become the maths tutor for Freddie Pargetter and has
rapidly advanced to a sort of step father in waiting figure. Iftikar
has long intimate talks with him and with his mother, Elizabeth
Pargetter, the widow of the unfortunate Nigel who was suddenly deemed
too posh for the Archers and was so ruthlessly dispatched. Iftikar
is appearing in this role ever more frequently and has accompanied
Elizabeth and the Pargetter children (Freddie and Lily) on their first
group outing. It is a sound bet that the we are heading for another
multiracial coupling in the Archer family with Elizabeth and Iftikar
getting spliced before the year is out to the sound of church bells …
er…the cry of the Muezzin. Iftikar being a Muslim would of course
require Elizabeth to convert to Islam. Elizabeth is still just of
childbearing age so we could of course expect the odd Mohammed and
Fatima to come along in due course.
But it has not all been about romance amongst the young and middle
aged. Lillian Bellamy (who must be nearing 70 in the context of the
series) and the ineffably wet Paul have been keeping the flag flying
for geriatric sex . This they have done by behaving like teenagers in
their first passion, with acting of an ineptitude startling even for
the Archers. The only glimmer of hope is that Paul may turn out to be
a nutter and suddenly go on a murderous rampage. The pc message is of
course the anti-age discrimination one of sex is for the old as well
as the young.
The BBC wound up the Archer’s message board on 28th February. Could it
be that they realised that the ever increasing amount of pc tosh they
are offering would result in an unceasing avalanche of ridicule and
straight criticism?
Read more at
http://englandcalling.wordpress.com/2013/03/10/the-archers-an-everyday-story-of-feminist-career-women-folk/
Message has been deleted
CheeseySock
Mar 10, 2013, 5:10:33 PM3/10/13
to
On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 13:31:43 -0700, RH wrote:
> The Archers: an everyday story of feminist career women folk
>
bbc.... babylonian (semite) bullshit corporation...
> The Archers: an everyday story of feminist career women folk
>
every dead 'tommy' is a job for a feminist said the pankhurst witch in
WW1.
funded by the usual bankster/corporotters... babylonian bankster
corporotters bbc
MCP
Mar 10, 2013, 5:58:29 PM3/10/13
to
abelard
Mar 10, 2013, 6:09:47 PM3/10/13
to
On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 13:31:43 -0700 (PDT), RH <anywh...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
>The Archers: an everyday story of feminist career women folk
masochist!
but it is useful to be kept a breast of the latest bbc
socialist agitprop
does anyone under 90 listen to it do you know?
>Posted on March 10, 2013by Robert Henderson
>
>
>Robert Henderson
>
>In their delightfully na�ve and blundering way the crazed feminists
wrote:
>The Archers: an everyday story of feminist career women folk
but it is useful to be kept a breast of the latest bbc
socialist agitprop
does anyone under 90 listen to it do you know?
>Posted on March 10, 2013by Robert Henderson
>
>
>Robert Henderson
>
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Andy Walker
Mar 10, 2013, 7:07:10 PM3/10/13
to
On 10/03/13 20:31, RH wrote:
> [...] Feminist
It's now more than 40 years since I listened to "The Archers"
other than briefly by accident while channel-hopping, more than 50
since I listened to it with any serious intent, and more than 60 since
it [to the great disappointment of a small boy expecting something to
do with Robin Hood as a replacement for "Dick Barton"] first aired in
the Midlands as a campaigning farming programme; so I can certainly
claim no expertise in what messages they are now dispensing. But it
is not "wildly improbable" that a woman can be an engineer. Not, at
least, on the assumption that we are talking about a graduate, or
similar, from the past couple of decades.
The maths-for-engineering module that I taught had around 130
females per year. That represented about 1 in 5 of the total; higher,
but not massively so, than the national ratio, which is around 1 in 8.
That was spread over several departments, but the total is quite
comparable with the number of females in any other single discipline,
such as history or chemistry. IOW, that the person concerned be an
engineer is only a little less [or more] likely than that she be an
historian, an economist, a musician, or whatever. Had the character
been male, then he would have been much more likely to be an engineer
than a biologist [etc], but that's a quite different proposition.
--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
> [...] Feminist
> message: women can be engineers just like men. Wildly improbable as
> that was, [...].
It's now more than 40 years since I listened to "The Archers"
other than briefly by accident while channel-hopping, more than 50
since I listened to it with any serious intent, and more than 60 since
it [to the great disappointment of a small boy expecting something to
do with Robin Hood as a replacement for "Dick Barton"] first aired in
the Midlands as a campaigning farming programme; so I can certainly
claim no expertise in what messages they are now dispensing. But it
is not "wildly improbable" that a woman can be an engineer. Not, at
least, on the assumption that we are talking about a graduate, or
similar, from the past couple of decades.
The maths-for-engineering module that I taught had around 130
females per year. That represented about 1 in 5 of the total; higher,
but not massively so, than the national ratio, which is around 1 in 8.
That was spread over several departments, but the total is quite
comparable with the number of females in any other single discipline,
such as history or chemistry. IOW, that the person concerned be an
engineer is only a little less [or more] likely than that she be an
historian, an economist, a musician, or whatever. Had the character
been male, then he would have been much more likely to be an engineer
than a biologist [etc], but that's a quite different proposition.
--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
Steve Firth
Mar 10, 2013, 7:55:06 PM3/10/13
to
that crap. It would help with the effect of making you look like a crazed
loon that you are clearly trying for.
--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/
Steve Firth
Mar 10, 2013, 7:55:07 PM3/10/13
to
RH <anywh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> The Archers: an everyday story of feminist career women folk
>
> Posted on March 10, 2013by Robert Henderson
>
>
> Robert Henderson
>
> In their delightfully naïve and blundering way the crazed feminists
> who control the Archers made Alice Carter, the daughter of Brian
> Aldridge (who is the richest man in Ambridge), an engineer. Feminist
> message: women can be engineers just like men. Wildly improbable as
> that was,
Well Bobby, you fucked your argument at square one there. I'm a (former)
> The Archers: an everyday story of feminist career women folk
>
> Posted on March 10, 2013by Robert Henderson
>
>
> Robert Henderson
>
> In their delightfully naïve and blundering way the crazed feminists
> who control the Archers made Alice Carter, the daughter of Brian
> Aldridge (who is the richest man in Ambridge), an engineer. Feminist
> message: women can be engineers just like men. Wildly improbable as
> that was,
scientist, not an engineer, although I've been working in engineering for
so long that I'm now permitted to pay some dosh and call myself an
engineer.
About half of the scientists and one third of the engineers I have worked
with have been women. They have been, on average, better than their male
colleagues. They have to be, because of the attitude of thundering pillocks
like you.
Meanwhile you figure as a big fat "who the fuck is that pompous ghet?"
The Archers is rubbish, pap for morons. I'm not surprised that you listen
to it.
--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/
CheeseySock
Mar 10, 2013, 7:59:45 PM3/10/13
to
CheeseySock
Mar 10, 2013, 8:08:24 PM3/10/13
to
communazi bankster shite... no no spittle on my chin... and no spent
cartridges... eternal september... der deutsche jew friendly front eh...
CheeseySock
Mar 10, 2013, 8:20:29 PM3/10/13
to
On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 23:55:06 +0000, Steve Firth wrote:
yeah you is a locust.... which way the wind going to blow... to israel
from egypt?
here's hoping....
Steve Firth
Mar 10, 2013, 8:35:11 PM3/10/13
to
nostrils?
--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/
RH
Mar 11, 2013, 2:45:11 AM3/11/13
to
On Mar 10, 11:07 pm, Andy Walker <n...@cuboid.co.uk> wrote:
> On 10/03/13 20:31, RH wrote:
>
> > [...] Feminist
> > message: women can be engineers just like men. Wildly improbable as
> > that was, [...].
>
> It's now more than 40 years since I listened to "The Archers"
> other than briefly by accident while channel-hopping, more than 50
> since I listened to it with any serious intent, and more than 60 since
> it [to the great disappointment of a small boy expecting something to
> do with Robin Hood as a replacement for "Dick Barton"
Ah, how early evidence of an extreme bounded mind is found...RH
> On 10/03/13 20:31, RH wrote:
>
> > [...] Feminist
> > message: women can be engineers just like men. Wildly improbable as
> > that was, [...].
>
> It's now more than 40 years since I listened to "The Archers"
> other than briefly by accident while channel-hopping, more than 50
> since I listened to it with any serious intent, and more than 60 since
> it [to the great disappointment of a small boy expecting something to
> do with Robin Hood as a replacement for "Dick Barton"
] first aired in
> the Midlands as a campaigning farming programme; so I can certainly
> claim no expertise in what messages they are now dispensing. But it
> is not "wildly improbable" that a woman can be an engineer. Not, at
> least, on the assumption that we are talking about a graduate, or
> similar, from the past couple of decades.
an engineer...RH
Steve Firth
Mar 11, 2013, 7:38:27 AM3/11/13
to
RH <anywh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
> It is wildly improbable that the daughter of a rich man would become
> an engineer...RH
Your ignorance is astonishing Henderblob.
--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/
[snip]
> It is wildly improbable that the daughter of a rich man would become
> an engineer...RH
--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/
Andy Walker
Mar 11, 2013, 7:59:48 AM3/11/13
to
On 11/03/13 06:45, RH wrote:
>> [...] But it
historian, or economist, or doctor, or .... She has to become
something. Avicenna and Steve Firth have already pointed you at
the extent of your ignorance. The world has moved on since your
time at university.
--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
>> [...] But it
>> is not "wildly improbable" that a woman can be an engineer. Not, at
>> least, on the assumption that we are talking about a graduate, or
>> similar, from the past couple of decades.
> It is wildly improbable that the daughter of a rich man would become
> an engineer...RH
It's just as "wildly improbable" that she would become an
>> least, on the assumption that we are talking about a graduate, or
>> similar, from the past couple of decades.
> It is wildly improbable that the daughter of a rich man would become
> an engineer...RH
historian, or economist, or doctor, or .... She has to become
something. Avicenna and Steve Firth have already pointed you at
the extent of your ignorance. The world has moved on since your
time at university.
--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
geopelia
Mar 11, 2013, 8:01:36 AM3/11/13
to
"Huge" <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote in message
news:aq4g0a...@mid.individual.net...
> On 2013-03-10, Sn!pe <sn...@spambin.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> The Archers makes my teeth itch,
>
> That'll be the thing that starts "Da-dada-dada-da-da<CLICK>", isn't it?
It's a great tune.
>
>
> Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 69th day of Chaos in the YOLD 3179
> Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin.
(As we kids used to say "Minnie, Minnie, tickle the Parson". But do kids
today have a clue what that is about?)
abelard
Mar 11, 2013, 8:12:26 AM3/11/13
to
On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 23:45:11 -0700 (PDT), RH <anywh...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
>On Mar 10, 11:07 pm, Andy Walker <n...@cuboid.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 10/03/13 20:31, RH wrote:
>>
>> > [...] Feminist
>> > message: women can be engineers just like men. Wildly improbable as
>> > that was, [...].
>>
>> It's now more than 40 years since I listened to "The Archers"
>> other than briefly by accident while channel-hopping, more than 50
>> since I listened to it with any serious intent, and more than 60 since
>> it [to the great disappointment of a small boy expecting something to
>> do with Robin Hood as a replacement for "Dick Barton"
>
>
>
>Ah, how early evidence of an extreme bounded mind is found...RH
>
>
>] first aired in
>> the Midlands as a campaigning farming programme; so I can certainly
>> claim no expertise in what messages they are now dispensing. But it
>> is not "wildly improbable" that a woman can be an engineer. Not, at
>> least, on the assumption that we are talking about a graduate, or
>> similar, from the past couple of decades.
>
>
>It is wildly improbable that the daughter of a rich man would become
>an engineer...RH
it is common for 'the rich' to guide their spawn into careers that
support the family trade...
the boss of an engineering company would happily have an
engineer training for leadership, esp if he perceived any
weakness in that area...
with several spawn, several specialties may be thought optimum...
the 'rich' don't get that way, let alone stay that way, by giving
scant attention to the future
i guide the young towards a science degree as a first degree
as that leaves them educated and adaptable...
where an english degree or a management degree may be
interesting...they can come later where time for indulgences
appear...
wrote:
>On Mar 10, 11:07 pm, Andy Walker <n...@cuboid.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 10/03/13 20:31, RH wrote:
>>
>> > [...] Feminist
>> > message: women can be engineers just like men. Wildly improbable as
>> > that was, [...].
>>
>> It's now more than 40 years since I listened to "The Archers"
>> other than briefly by accident while channel-hopping, more than 50
>> since I listened to it with any serious intent, and more than 60 since
>> it [to the great disappointment of a small boy expecting something to
>> do with Robin Hood as a replacement for "Dick Barton"
>
>
>
>Ah, how early evidence of an extreme bounded mind is found...RH
>
>
>] first aired in
>> the Midlands as a campaigning farming programme; so I can certainly
>> claim no expertise in what messages they are now dispensing. But it
>> is not "wildly improbable" that a woman can be an engineer. Not, at
>> least, on the assumption that we are talking about a graduate, or
>> similar, from the past couple of decades.
>
>
>It is wildly improbable that the daughter of a rich man would become
>an engineer...RH
support the family trade...
the boss of an engineering company would happily have an
engineer training for leadership, esp if he perceived any
weakness in that area...
with several spawn, several specialties may be thought optimum...
the 'rich' don't get that way, let alone stay that way, by giving
scant attention to the future
i guide the young towards a science degree as a first degree
as that leaves them educated and adaptable...
where an english degree or a management degree may be
interesting...they can come later where time for indulgences
appear...
Message has been deleted
RH
Mar 11, 2013, 9:05:32 AM3/11/13
to
On Mar 11, 12:12 pm, abelard <abela...@abelard.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 23:45:11 -0700 (PDT), RH <anywhere...@yahoo.co.uk>
Alice is a farmer's daughter. RH
> On Sun, 10 Mar 2013 23:45:11 -0700 (PDT), RH <anywhere...@yahoo.co.uk>
Steve Firth
Mar 11, 2013, 11:17:30 AM3/11/13
to
Huge <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> I doubt it. But then, I had to look it up to find the literal translation.
Tssk, you have been tried and found wanting.
Mene mene tekel peres.
--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/
> I doubt it. But then, I had to look it up to find the literal translation.
Tssk, you have been tried and found wanting.
Mene mene tekel peres.
--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/
Message has been deleted
abelard
Mar 11, 2013, 11:58:51 AM3/11/13
to
Farmer Giles
Mar 11, 2013, 1:25:46 PM3/11/13
to
locations and disciplines, even abroad - and, while I wouldn't say
female engineers are rare, they're certainly not numerous. Furthermore,
I can't think of one that I met or worked with who was the daughter of a
wealthy man - and not many more who were anything but useless.
RH
Mar 11, 2013, 2:04:02 PM3/11/13
to
landowner.
2. The children of the wealthy often do not work.
3. The children of the rich if they take a degree generally opt for
the Arts.
RH
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Andy Walker
Mar 11, 2013, 3:33:18 PM3/11/13
to
On 11/03/13 17:25, Farmer Giles wrote:
> Well, I've been in engineering all my life - working in many
> different locations and disciplines, even abroad - and, while I
> wouldn't say female engineers are rare, they're certainly not
> numerous.
Yes, but that is answering the question "what proportion of
> Well, I've been in engineering all my life - working in many
> different locations and disciplines, even abroad - and, while I
> wouldn't say female engineers are rare, they're certainly not
> numerous.
engineers are female", not the question "what proportion of females
are engineers". There are several times as many engineers, in total,
as [eg] historians, so although an historian is quite likely to be
female, the total number of female historians is likely to be similar
to the total number of female engineers. Robert would not have
turned a hair if a female character had been an historian or a music
graduate; he should not turn a hair if she is an engineer.
In addition, the picture has been changing. Over the past
forty years or so, the proportion of female engineers has grown
enormously, so the picture for recent graduates is quite different
from that of engineers as a body. I suspect [and hope] that the
barriers to female engineers in the form of MCPiggery are much lower
than they used to be, which should also help their career prospects
and so the attraction of the profession.
> Furthermore, I can't think of one that I met or worked with
> who was the daughter of a wealthy man
2% of the population are seriously wealthy, then you need to know
fifty female engineers to expect one of them to have a seriously
wealthy father, and well over a hundred before not meeting one
starts to look statistically significant. If you did meet one,
would you know? When I talk to colleagues, we tend to talk about
families, children, hobbies and interests, quite rarely about [eg]
their own education, and very rarely about parental background.
> - and not many more who were
> anything but useless.
--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
RH
Mar 11, 2013, 3:41:41 PM3/11/13
to
On Mar 11, 7:33 pm, Andy Walker <n...@cuboid.co.uk> wrote:
> On 11/03/13 17:25, Farmer Giles wrote:
>
> > Well, I've been in engineering all my life - working in many
> > different locations and disciplines, even abroad - and, while I
> > wouldn't say female engineers are rare, they're certainly not
> > numerous.
>
> Yes, but that is answering the question "what proportion of
> engineers are female", not the question "what proportion of females
> are engineers". There are several times as many engineers, in total,
> as [eg] historians, so although an historian is quite likely to be
> female, the total number of female historians is likely to be similar
> to the total number of female engineers. Robert would not have
> turned a hair if a female character had been an historian or a music
> graduate; he should not turn a hair if she is an engineer.
Sigh. That is the whole point: a rich girl taking history or music
> On 11/03/13 17:25, Farmer Giles wrote:
>
> > Well, I've been in engineering all my life - working in many
> > different locations and disciplines, even abroad - and, while I
> > wouldn't say female engineers are rare, they're certainly not
> > numerous.
>
> Yes, but that is answering the question "what proportion of
> engineers are female", not the question "what proportion of females
> are engineers". There are several times as many engineers, in total,
> as [eg] historians, so although an historian is quite likely to be
> female, the total number of female historians is likely to be similar
> to the total number of female engineers. Robert would not have
> turned a hair if a female character had been an historian or a music
> graduate; he should not turn a hair if she is an engineer.
would be the norm: a rich girl taking engineering to masters level
(Alice's fiction qualifications) is entering unicorn territory... RH
>
> In addition, the picture has been changing. Over the past
> forty years or so, the proportion of female engineers has grown
> enormously, so the picture for recent graduates is quite different
> from that of engineers as a body. I suspect [and hope] that the
> barriers to female engineers in the form of MCPiggery are much lower
> than they used to be, which should also help their career prospects
> and so the attraction of the profession.
>
> > Furthermore, I can't think of one that I met or worked with
> > who was the daughter of a wealthy man
>
> How many would you expect to be able to think of? If, say,
> 2% of the population are seriously wealthy, then you need to know
> fifty female engineers to expect one of them to have a seriously
> wealthy father, and well over a hundred before not meeting one
> starts to look statistically significant. If you did meet one,
> would you know? When I talk to colleagues, we tend to talk about
> families, children, hobbies and interests, quite rarely about [eg]
> their own education, and very rarely about parental background.
Which just proves how improbable a rich girl with a masters in
> In addition, the picture has been changing. Over the past
> forty years or so, the proportion of female engineers has grown
> enormously, so the picture for recent graduates is quite different
> from that of engineers as a body. I suspect [and hope] that the
> barriers to female engineers in the form of MCPiggery are much lower
> than they used to be, which should also help their career prospects
> and so the attraction of the profession.
>
> > Furthermore, I can't think of one that I met or worked with
> > who was the daughter of a wealthy man
>
> How many would you expect to be able to think of? If, say,
> 2% of the population are seriously wealthy, then you need to know
> fifty female engineers to expect one of them to have a seriously
> wealthy father, and well over a hundred before not meeting one
> starts to look statistically significant. If you did meet one,
> would you know? When I talk to colleagues, we tend to talk about
> families, children, hobbies and interests, quite rarely about [eg]
> their own education, and very rarely about parental background.
engineering would be.... RH
DVH
Mar 11, 2013, 3:42:51 PM3/11/13
to
On 11/03/2013 12:13, Huge wrote:
> Archers, since it combines two things I already dislike; soap operas
> and radio plays.
Your anti-intellectualism sums up what's wrong with Britain today.
> On 2013-03-11, geopelia <geop...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>> "Huge" <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:aq4g0a...@mid.individual.net...
>>> On 2013-03-10, Sn!pe <sn...@spambin.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Archers makes my teeth itch,
>>>
>>> That'll be the thing that starts "Da-dada-dada-da-da<CLICK>", isn't it?
>>
>> It's a great tune.
>
> Yep. Gives me time to get to the radio and switch it off. I *loathe* the
>>
>> "Huge" <Hu...@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:aq4g0a...@mid.individual.net...
>>> On 2013-03-10, Sn!pe <sn...@spambin.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Archers makes my teeth itch,
>>>
>>> That'll be the thing that starts "Da-dada-dada-da-da<CLICK>", isn't it?
>>
>> It's a great tune.
>
> Archers, since it combines two things I already dislike; soap operas
> and radio plays.
Your anti-intellectualism sums up what's wrong with Britain today.
Andy Walker
Mar 11, 2013, 4:12:59 PM3/11/13
to
On 11/03/13 18:04, RH wrote:
> 1. Alice is meant to be the daughter of a wealthy farmer and
> landowner.
And? Does that make her less likely to be scientifically,
> 1. Alice is meant to be the daughter of a wealthy farmer and
> landowner.
technologically or mathematically inclined?
> 2. The children of the wealthy often do not work.
wealthy people I know? Of course there are some who themselves
want and expect to live in idle luxury and encourage their children
to do the same [tho' the children often rebel], but most of them
work hard [in terms of hours, not physical toil] to get or to stay
where they are, and equally expect their children to work hard, inc
getting a good education and, if possible, a degree.
> 3. The children of the rich if they take a degree generally opt for
> the Arts.
scientists] at our most socially-prestigious universities. Of course,
there is scope for some universities to offer low-grade courses for
those with grades too low for top universities, and these may be
particularly attractive to the less clever offspring of the wealthy,
but such universities are not usually noted for their Arts courses.
--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
geopelia
Mar 11, 2013, 5:18:37 PM3/11/13
to
"Steve Firth" <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1138543014384700972.300809%steve%-mallo...@news.eternal-september.org...
It depends which Bible you use. King James has upharsin.
Steve Firth
Mar 11, 2013, 5:37:48 PM3/11/13
to
RH <anywh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> 1. Alice is meant to be the daughter of a wealthy farmer and
> landowner.
Alice is a fictional character.
> 1. Alice is meant to be the daughter of a wealthy farmer and
> landowner.
> 2. The children of the wealthy often do not work.
work. These appear on "reality" TV, which is where you appear to draw your
ideas from.
> 3. The children of the rich if they take a degree generally opt for
> the Arts.
--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/
Andy Walker
Mar 11, 2013, 6:26:42 PM3/11/13
to
On 11/03/13 19:41, RH wrote:
> Sigh. That is the whole point: a rich girl taking history or music
> would be the norm: a rich girl taking engineering to masters level
> (Alice's fiction qualifications) is entering unicorn territory... RH
You seem to be unaware that for many years now a four-year
> Sigh. That is the whole point: a rich girl taking history or music
> would be the norm: a rich girl taking engineering to masters level
> (Alice's fiction qualifications) is entering unicorn territory... RH
MEng degree has been normal in engineering. Having a master-level
degree [ie, not the Oxbridge upgrade sort] makes it relatively more,
not less, likely that she would be an engineer.
>> [...] When I talk to colleagues, we tend to talk about
>> families, children, hobbies and interests, quite rarely about [eg]
>> their own education, and very rarely about parental background.
> Which just proves how improbable a rich girl with a masters in
> engineering would be.... RH
No, it makes it very improbable that a random female
>> their own education, and very rarely about parental background.
> Which just proves how improbable a rich girl with a masters in
> engineering would be.... RH
would be known by you to have a rich father and to hold an MEng.
That's completely different from the probability that a graduate
who is known to have a rich father should be a female with an
MEng.
--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
Steve Firth
Mar 11, 2013, 6:52:48 PM3/11/13
to
--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/
Richard Tobin
Mar 12, 2013, 5:37:05 AM3/12/13
to
In article <khlhk9$v2f$1...@dont-email.me>, geopelia <geop...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> Mene mene tekel peres.
>It depends which Bible you use. King James has upharsin.
"Upharsin" is probably just "and <plural of peres>". "U" is "and",
"p" becomes "ph" after a vowel, "in" is a plural suffix, and the
vowels don't appear in the text. But it can be interpreted in
different ways anyway according to what you're trying to prove.
Personally I think it's the Judean equivalent of "eeny meeny miny mo".
-- Richard
>> Mene mene tekel peres.
>It depends which Bible you use. King James has upharsin.
"p" becomes "ph" after a vowel, "in" is a plural suffix, and the
vowels don't appear in the text. But it can be interpreted in
different ways anyway according to what you're trying to prove.
Personally I think it's the Judean equivalent of "eeny meeny miny mo".
-- Richard
RH
Mar 12, 2013, 5:54:04 AM3/12/13
to
On Mar 11, 10:26 pm, Andy Walker <n...@cuboid.co.uk> wrote:
> On 11/03/13 19:41, RH wrote:
>
> > Sigh. That is the whole point: a rich girl taking history or music
> > would be the norm: a rich girl taking engineering to masters level
> > (Alice's fiction qualifications) is entering unicorn territory... RH
>
> You seem to be unaware that for many years now a four-year
> MEng degree has been normal in engineering. Having a master-level
> degree [ie, not the Oxbridge upgrade sort] makes it relatively more,
> not less, likely that she would be an engineer.
>
> >> [...] When I talk to colleagues, we tend to talk about
> >> families, children, hobbies and interests, quite rarely about [eg]
> >> their own education, and very rarely about parental background.
> > Which just proves how improbable a rich girl with a masters in
> > engineering would be.... RH
So what are claiming, BEng's are dead? RH
> On 11/03/13 19:41, RH wrote:
>
> > Sigh. That is the whole point: a rich girl taking history or music
> > would be the norm: a rich girl taking engineering to masters level
> > (Alice's fiction qualifications) is entering unicorn territory... RH
>
> You seem to be unaware that for many years now a four-year
> MEng degree has been normal in engineering. Having a master-level
> degree [ie, not the Oxbridge upgrade sort] makes it relatively more,
> not less, likely that she would be an engineer.
>
> >> [...] When I talk to colleagues, we tend to talk about
> >> families, children, hobbies and interests, quite rarely about [eg]
> >> their own education, and very rarely about parental background.
> > Which just proves how improbable a rich girl with a masters in
> > engineering would be.... RH
>
> No, it makes it very improbable that a random female
> would be known by you to have a rich father and to hold an MEng.
> That's completely different from the probability that a graduate
> who is known to have a rich father should be a female with an
> MEng.
>
> --
> Andy Walker,
> Nottingham.
No. It makes it very improbable indeed that there would be a rich girl
> No, it makes it very improbable that a random female
> would be known by you to have a rich father and to hold an MEng.
> That's completely different from the probability that a graduate
> who is known to have a rich father should be a female with an
> MEng.
>
> --
> Andy Walker,
> Nottingham.
from a landowning family with an engineering degree pursuing a
career in engineering... RH
Andy Walker
Mar 12, 2013, 9:04:29 AM3/12/13
to
On 12/03/13 09:54, RH wrote:
> So what are claiming, BEng's are dead? RH
Not dead, esp as those who come below roughly the middle of
> So what are claiming, BEng's are dead? RH
the lower seconds won't be allowed to continue on the MEng. The
last time I had anything to do with it was around a decade ago,
when some 80% of applications at Nott'm were to the MEng; I'd
expect that to have been reasonably typical. I don't know what's
happened in recent years; tuition fees will have been a downwards
pressure, but the standards required by the professional bodies and
competition from other countries will have pushed the numbers up.
What is certain is that a recent engineering graduate is much more
likely to have an MEng than a history graduate to have an MA [other
than the Oxbridge variety].
>> No, it makes it very improbable that a random female
>> would be known by you to have a rich father and to hold an MEng.
>> That's completely different from the probability that a graduate
>> who is known to have a rich father should be a female with an
>> MEng.
> No. It makes it very improbable indeed that there would be a rich girl
> from a landowning family with an engineering degree pursuing a
> career in engineering... RH
You're pursuing this the wrong way. It's very improbable
> from a landowning family with an engineering degree pursuing a
> career in engineering... RH
indeed that a new family in the village should be called "Aldridge";
but they have to be called *something*, and *any* particular name
is improbable. It's not at all improbable that a village should
contain a rich landowning family, nor that they should have a girl,
nor that in due course she should go to university, obtain a degree,
and wish to pursue a career in her chosen discipline. Your beef is
with the fact that she studied engineering. But she has to study
something, any particular degree course is improbable, and an MEng
is not implausible enough even to raise eyebrows [unless you are
paranoid about scriptwriters with feminist agendas].
FYI, the most common course is nursing [153233 applications
in 2011]; engineering had 124758; design studies, psychology and
law had over 90000; English came 9th with 56570, history 14th with
49868, maths 19th with 41320, .... Note that these are applications,
not applicant counts, and even less admission counts. Nursing is
about 6% of the total. You can estimate your own probabilities from
there. Note that whereas most engineering or maths applicants will
get places in their chosen discipline [tho' not necessarily at one
of their chosen universities], many psychology/law/English/history
applicants will have to do something else, through pressure on
places, if they enter HE at all. Most subjects [inc engineering]
also have substantial numbers of applications through joint hons
and other combinations, counted elsewhere in the UCAS figures.
--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
Andy Walker
Mar 12, 2013, 9:13:33 AM3/12/13
to
On 12/03/13 09:54, RH wrote:
> So what are claiming, BEng's are dead? RH
Not dead, esp as those who come below roughly the middle of
the lower seconds won't be allowed to continue on the MEng. The
last time I had anything to do with it was around a decade ago,
when some 80% of applications at Nott'm were to the MEng; I'd
expect that to have been reasonably typical. I don't know what's
happened in recent years; tuition fees will have been a downwards
pressure, but the standards required by the professional bodies and
competition from other countries will have pushed the numbers up.
What is certain is that a recent engineering graduate is much more
likely to have an MEng than a history graduate to have an MA [other
than the Oxbridge variety].
the lower seconds won't be allowed to continue on the MEng. The
last time I had anything to do with it was around a decade ago,
when some 80% of applications at Nott'm were to the MEng; I'd
expect that to have been reasonably typical. I don't know what's
happened in recent years; tuition fees will have been a downwards
pressure, but the standards required by the professional bodies and
competition from other countries will have pushed the numbers up.
What is certain is that a recent engineering graduate is much more
likely to have an MEng than a history graduate to have an MA [other
than the Oxbridge variety].
>> No, it makes it very improbable that a random female
>> would be known by you to have a rich father and to hold an MEng.
>> That's completely different from the probability that a graduate
>> who is known to have a rich father should be a female with an
>> MEng.
>> would be known by you to have a rich father and to hold an MEng.
>> That's completely different from the probability that a graduate
>> who is known to have a rich father should be a female with an
>> MEng.
> No. It makes it very improbable indeed that there would be a rich girl
> from a landowning family with an engineering degree pursuing a
> career in engineering... RH
> from a landowning family with an engineering degree pursuing a
> career in engineering... RH
RH
Mar 12, 2013, 12:38:34 PM3/12/13
to
On Mar 12, 1:13 pm, Andy Walker <n...@cuboid.co.uk> wrote:
> On 12/03/13 09:54, RH wrote:
>
> > So what are claiming, BEng's are dead? RH
>
> Not dead, esp as those who come below roughly the middle of
> the lower seconds won't be allowed to continue on the MEng. The
> last time I had anything to do with it was around a decade ago,
> when some 80% of applications at Nott'm were to the MEng; I'd
> expect that to have been reasonably typical. I don't know what's
> happened in recent years; tuition fees will have been a downwards
> pressure, but the standards required by the professional bodies and
> competition from other countries will have pushed the numbers up.
> What is certain is that a recent engineering graduate is much more
> likely to have an MEng than a history graduate to have an MA [other
> than the Oxbridge variety].
Right. So in reality there is no practical difference between taking a
> On 12/03/13 09:54, RH wrote:
>
> > So what are claiming, BEng's are dead? RH
>
> Not dead, esp as those who come below roughly the middle of
> the lower seconds won't be allowed to continue on the MEng. The
> last time I had anything to do with it was around a decade ago,
> when some 80% of applications at Nott'm were to the MEng; I'd
> expect that to have been reasonably typical. I don't know what's
> happened in recent years; tuition fees will have been a downwards
> pressure, but the standards required by the professional bodies and
> competition from other countries will have pushed the numbers up.
> What is certain is that a recent engineering graduate is much more
> likely to have an MEng than a history graduate to have an MA [other
> than the Oxbridge variety].
1 year Masters course after a three year Bachelors, the less able
students ending up with a BEng. RH
>
> >> No, it makes it very improbable that a random female
> >> would be known by you to have a rich father and to hold an MEng.
> >> That's completely different from the probability that a graduate
> >> who is known to have a rich father should be a female with an
> >> MEng.
> > No. It makes it very improbable indeed that there would be a rich girl
> > from a landowning family with an engineering degree pursuing a
> > career in engineering... RH
>
> You're pursuing this the wrong way. It's very improbable
> indeed that a new family in the village should be called "Aldridge";
> but they have to be called *something*, and *any* particular name
> is improbable. It's not at all improbable that a village should
> contain a rich landowning family, nor that they should have a girl,
> nor that in due course she should go to university, obtain a degree,
> and wish to pursue a career in her chosen discipline. Your beef is
> with the fact that she studied engineering. But she has to study
> something, any particular degree course is improbable, and an MEng
> is not implausible enough even to raise eyebrows [unless you are
> paranoid about scriptwriters with feminist agendas].
No, I am pursuing it in exactly the right way which is to say what is
> >> No, it makes it very improbable that a random female
> >> would be known by you to have a rich father and to hold an MEng.
> >> That's completely different from the probability that a graduate
> >> who is known to have a rich father should be a female with an
> >> MEng.
> > No. It makes it very improbable indeed that there would be a rich girl
> > from a landowning family with an engineering degree pursuing a
> > career in engineering... RH
>
> You're pursuing this the wrong way. It's very improbable
> indeed that a new family in the village should be called "Aldridge";
> but they have to be called *something*, and *any* particular name
> is improbable. It's not at all improbable that a village should
> contain a rich landowning family, nor that they should have a girl,
> nor that in due course she should go to university, obtain a degree,
> and wish to pursue a career in her chosen discipline. Your beef is
> with the fact that she studied engineering. But she has to study
> something, any particular degree course is improbable, and an MEng
> is not implausible enough even to raise eyebrows [unless you are
> paranoid about scriptwriters with feminist agendas].
the most likely degree and career for the daughter a rich landowner
to take and follow. Engineering is one of the most unlikely, arguably
the most unlikely. RH
Fevric J. Glandules
Mar 12, 2013, 5:07:50 PM3/12/13
to
Andy Walker wrote:
> FYI, the most common course is nursing [153233 applications
> in 2011]; engineering had 124758; design studies, psychology and
> law had over 90000; English came 9th with 56570, history 14th with
> 49868, maths 19th with 41320, .... Note that these are applications,
> not applicant counts, and even less admission counts. Nursing is
There's a nice tool here:
> FYI, the most common course is nursing [153233 applications
> in 2011]; engineering had 124758; design studies, psychology and
> law had over 90000; English came 9th with 56570, history 14th with
> 49868, maths 19th with 41320, .... Note that these are applications,
> not applicant counts, and even less admission counts. Nursing is
http://search1.ucas.co.uk/fandf00/
which can settle most of this.
In 2011, slightly more women were accepted onto engineering courses
through UCAS and clearing (3178+592) than onto European language
courses (3295+303).
Andy Walker
Mar 12, 2013, 6:58:08 PM3/12/13
to
On 12/03/13 21:07, Fevric J. Glandules wrote:
> There's a nice tool here:
> http://search1.ucas.co.uk/fandf00/
> which can settle most of this.
Thanks! V useful.
> There's a nice tool here:
> http://search1.ucas.co.uk/fandf00/
> which can settle most of this.
--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
Andy Walker
Mar 12, 2013, 7:44:04 PM3/12/13
to
On 12/03/13 16:38, RH wrote:
> Right. So in reality there is no practical difference between taking a
> 1 year Masters course after a three year Bachelors, the less able
> students ending up with a BEng. RH
That's largely true; but when undergraduate masters courses
> Right. So in reality there is no practical difference between taking a
> 1 year Masters course after a three year Bachelors, the less able
> students ending up with a BEng. RH
were set up, the govt was insistent that they *not* consist of a
1-yr MEng tacked on to a BEng [or MMath on an MSc, etc]. However,
a student has the right to leave any course after passing three
years [effectively] with a degree, so the practical difference is
quite limited. For engineering, there is no guarantee that three
years of an MEng would qualify for the same exemptions towards the
professional bodies as a "proper" BEng. The "less able" is not
entirely true; some good students leave for financial or career
reasons, and the normal 3-yr BEng would have its share of good
students who always wanted that qualification.
[...]
> No, I am pursuing it in exactly the right way which is to say what is
> the most likely degree and career for the daughter a rich landowner
> to take and follow. Engineering is one of the most unlikely, arguably
> the most unlikely. RH
You're not often right, but you're wrong this time. FJG has
> the most likely degree and career for the daughter a rich landowner
> to take and follow. Engineering is one of the most unlikely, arguably
> the most unlikely. RH
already pointed you at a plausible candidate for less likely. Nearly
two-thirds of all UCAS categories have fewer applicants in total than
the number of women starting engineering courses, so it's a safe bet
that at least two-thirds [100 or so] attract fewer females. You can
try FJG's link yourself, but I would start with dentistry, zoology,
philosophy, forensic and archaeological science, dance, veterinary
medicine, theology, classics, French, .... *You* may be anti
technology and engineering, but you should not assume that your
conceit is shared by the offspring of rich landowners. Or by the
wealthy in general, or by public schools or by Oxbridge.
--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
RH
Mar 13, 2013, 5:36:27 AM3/13/13
to
landowning families. Care to give an estimate? RH
> --
> Andy Walker,
> Nottingham.
Custos Custodum
Mar 13, 2013, 8:01:10 AM3/13/13
to
Andy Walker <ne...@cuboid.co.uk> wrote in news:vJF%s.17910$eU7.14213
@fx24.fr7:
Of course he is! He's a misogynist and what really rankles his
'unbounded mind' is the thought that there are actually women out there
who are considerably more smart than he is. FWIW, my last (engineering)
boss was a woman. She didn't have a master's degree - she had a PhD. I
don't know if she came from a rich land-owning family but she drove a
Range Rover and kept horses, which would have been quite a stretch even
on her manager's salary.
@fx24.fr7:
'unbounded mind' is the thought that there are actually women out there
who are considerably more smart than he is. FWIW, my last (engineering)
boss was a woman. She didn't have a master's degree - she had a PhD. I
don't know if she came from a rich land-owning family but she drove a
Range Rover and kept horses, which would have been quite a stretch even
on her manager's salary.
Avicenna
Mar 13, 2013, 1:17:59 PM3/13/13
to
On 12 Mar, 02:54, RH <anywhere...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> No. It makes it very improbable indeed that there would be a rich girl
> from a landowning family
BTW, here's a wealthy girl Georgia Neachell #322, from a landowning
>
> No. It makes it very improbable indeed that there would be a rich girl
> from a landowning family
family stomping on the loud pedal in her F1 stock-car: http://bazstoxs.co.uk/1.jpg
And here's a not-wealthy woman, Jayne Bean, who won many races and
knew how to 'put the bumper in' back in the eighties and nineties:
http://www.briscaf1heritage.com/images/jaynebean.jpg
Andy Walker
Mar 13, 2013, 3:42:18 PM3/13/13
to
On 13/03/13 09:36, RH wrote:
> Sigh. What matters is how many engineers are rich girls from
> landowning families. Care to give an estimate? RH
About 1/140 of the rich girls [of age] from landowning
> Sigh. What matters is how many engineers are rich girls from
> landowning families. Care to give an estimate? RH
families [which is a rather ill-defined group]. Your turn:
same question in respect of (a) archaeologists, (b) vets, (c)
Aldridges; and (d) why, in your opinion, your question "matters"
more than mine.
You would not have turned a hair if she had been a vet, a
philosopher, a forensic patholoogist, economist or archaeologist.
Why does "engineer" excite you? Rich female engineers are more
common than rich females who are graduates of a large majority of
the 146 UCAS subject categories, and comparably common with all
the rest. Your MCP side is [again] showing.
You shouldn't believe the stereotypical films and books in
which the vast majority of engineers, scientists, mathematicians
are power-crazed, insane or geeks [sometimes all three] with no
social life, leaving the world to be rescued by the warm, gentle,
fun-loving English major. In the real world, engineers [etc] are
indistinguishable in any of these respects from any other group
of students.
[And I note that you have switched from the daughter of a
rich landowner to rich girls from landowning families -- not at
all the same thing.]
--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
Avicenna
Mar 13, 2013, 4:34:19 PM3/13/13
to
Agreed, that's a suspicious element in his anti-Archers rant.
In 1989 a gunman entered Montreal's engineering school and killed 14
women, of whom 12 were engineering students. As he fired his assault
rifle, he called them 'feminists', which demonstrates if nothing else
that he had no familiarity with the field of engineering, a
traditionally conservative culture.
He did not want women to be engineers.
In 1989 a gunman entered Montreal's engineering school and killed 14
women, of whom 12 were engineering students. As he fired his assault
rifle, he called them 'feminists', which demonstrates if nothing else
that he had no familiarity with the field of engineering, a
traditionally conservative culture.
He did not want women to be engineers.
RH
Mar 13, 2013, 5:04:05 PM3/13/13
to
On Mar 13, 7:42 pm, Andy Walker <n...@cuboid.co.uk> wrote:
> On 13/03/13 09:36, RH wrote:
>
> > Sigh. What matters is how many engineers are rich girls from
> > landowning families. Care to give an estimate? RH
>
> About 1/140 of the rich girls [of age] from landowning
> families [which is a rather ill-defined group].
So that is 140 to one . As I said, very improbable,. RH
> On 13/03/13 09:36, RH wrote:
>
> > Sigh. What matters is how many engineers are rich girls from
> > landowning families. Care to give an estimate? RH
>
> About 1/140 of the rich girls [of age] from landowning
> families [which is a rather ill-defined group].
Your turn:
> same question in respect of (a) archaeologists, (b) vets, (c)
> Aldridges; and (d) why, in your opinion, your question "matters"
> more than mine.
writers; d) mine is related to the cats. RH
>
> You would not have turned a hair if she had been a vet, a
> philosopher, a forensic patholoogist, economist or archaeologist.
> Why does "engineer" excite you?
Rich female engineers are more
> common than rich females who are graduates of a large majority of
> the 146 UCAS subject categories, and comparably common with all
> the rest. Your MCP side is [again] showing.
girls from landowning backgrounds that matters, RH
Avicenna
Mar 13, 2013, 5:58:30 PM3/13/13
to
On 13 Mar, 14:04, RH <anywhere...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Can we get back to The Archers, and invite RH to state why it is
inappropriate for a fictional female radio character to be an
engineer; in what way is this story wrong or inaccurate or harmful.
Good fiction, written or broadcast, gives us a comprehensive picture
of our world. Good fiction does not limit itself to only descriptions
of the middle of the bell curve, ie by presenting as a paradigm of
British life only the "majority" slice who perhaps are a white married
couple with 1.75 children in a suburb, with a Ford Fiesta in the
driveway, the husband working for a wholesale distributor and the wife
working part time at a temp agency.
Now, that setting COULD be good if the dramatic action were
extraordinary.
But listening to the Archers we are more entertained by the extended
arms of a bell curve. I'd love to know if a broad swath of British
listeners really were appalled and turned off by hearing that a woman
was to become an engineer.
I remember the "unusual" catching my attention over 45 years ago when
Phil dug a trout pond on his farm, and one of the youthful characters
went to local stock car races to help as a mechanic, both stories
generating interest. I did not protest, I did not repine, I flinched
from no political threat. I survived.
Can we get back to The Archers, and invite RH to state why it is
inappropriate for a fictional female radio character to be an
engineer; in what way is this story wrong or inaccurate or harmful.
Good fiction, written or broadcast, gives us a comprehensive picture
of our world. Good fiction does not limit itself to only descriptions
of the middle of the bell curve, ie by presenting as a paradigm of
British life only the "majority" slice who perhaps are a white married
couple with 1.75 children in a suburb, with a Ford Fiesta in the
driveway, the husband working for a wholesale distributor and the wife
working part time at a temp agency.
Now, that setting COULD be good if the dramatic action were
extraordinary.
But listening to the Archers we are more entertained by the extended
arms of a bell curve. I'd love to know if a broad swath of British
listeners really were appalled and turned off by hearing that a woman
was to become an engineer.
I remember the "unusual" catching my attention over 45 years ago when
Phil dug a trout pond on his farm, and one of the youthful characters
went to local stock car races to help as a mechanic, both stories
generating interest. I did not protest, I did not repine, I flinched
from no political threat. I survived.
abelard
Mar 13, 2013, 6:02:32 PM3/13/13
to
On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:58:30 -0700 (PDT), Avicenna
<braf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 13 Mar, 14:04, RH <anywhere...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Can we get back to The Archers, and invite RH to state why it is
>inappropriate for a fictional female radio character to be an
>engineer; in what way is this story wrong or inaccurate or harmful.
>
>Good fiction, written or broadcast, gives us a comprehensive picture
>of our world. Good fiction does not limit itself to only descriptions
>of the middle of the bell curve, ie by presenting as a paradigm of
>British life only the "majority" slice who perhaps are a white married
>couple with 1.75 children in a suburb, with a Ford Fiesta in the
>driveway, the husband working for a wholesale distributor and the wife
>working part time at a temp agency.
>
>Now, that setting COULD be good if the dramatic action were
>extraordinary.
>
>But listening to the Archers we are more entertained by the extended
>arms of a bell curve. I'd love to know if a broad swath of British
>listeners really were appalled and turned off by hearing that a woman
>was to become an engineer.
aren't you going a bit far to concentrate on his engineer....
<braf...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On 13 Mar, 14:04, RH <anywhere...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Can we get back to The Archers, and invite RH to state why it is
>inappropriate for a fictional female radio character to be an
>engineer; in what way is this story wrong or inaccurate or harmful.
>
>Good fiction, written or broadcast, gives us a comprehensive picture
>of our world. Good fiction does not limit itself to only descriptions
>of the middle of the bell curve, ie by presenting as a paradigm of
>British life only the "majority" slice who perhaps are a white married
>couple with 1.75 children in a suburb, with a Ford Fiesta in the
>driveway, the husband working for a wholesale distributor and the wife
>working part time at a temp agency.
>
>Now, that setting COULD be good if the dramatic action were
>extraordinary.
>
>But listening to the Archers we are more entertained by the extended
>arms of a bell curve. I'd love to know if a broad swath of British
>listeners really were appalled and turned off by hearing that a woman
>was to become an engineer.
hatstand's satirical revues of the programme aim at the whole
nonsense, not at a single detail of the nonsense
Steve Firth
Mar 13, 2013, 6:49:16 PM3/13/13
to
engineer. Born to wealthy landowning parents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elsie_MacGill
Henderblob is a fool.
--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/
Andy Walker
Mar 14, 2013, 8:42:29 AM3/14/13
to
On 13/03/13 21:04, RH wrote:
>>> Sigh. What matters is how many engineers are rich girls from
>>> landowning families. Care to give an estimate? RH
>> About 1/140 of the rich girls [of age] from landowning
>> families [which is a rather ill-defined group].
> So that is 140 to one . As I said, very improbable,. RH
Your statistical ignorance is showing. *Any* particular
>>> Sigh. What matters is how many engineers are rich girls from
>>> landowning families. Care to give an estimate? RH
>> About 1/140 of the rich girls [of age] from landowning
>> families [which is a rather ill-defined group].
> So that is 140 to one . As I said, very improbable,. RH
graduate career, except perhaps nursing, is "very improbable" [or,
as you *actually* said, "wildly improbable"]. Engineering is in
fact much more probable than most, and comparably probable with
any choice [such as historian] that fits better with your MCP
tendencies.
You haven't revealed when Ms Aldridge's birthday is. If
the scriptwriters deem it to be, say, September 20th, then that
is significantly less probable than 1/140. But you can't use that
statistic to show that the scriptwriters are crazed Septembrists.
> Your turn:
>> same question in respect of (a) archaeologists, (b) vets, (c)
>> Aldridges; and (d) why, in your opinion, your question "matters"
>> more than mine.
> a-c: irrelevant because this is a fictional case and the choice is the
> writers;
archaeologist, vet or Aldridge. Why are you exercised by that choice
when you weren't by their choice of Aldridge and wouldn't have been
by a choice of archaeologist or vet? Statistical ignorance?
> d) mine is related to the cats. RH
their significance?
>> You would not have turned a hair if she had been a vet, a
>> philosopher, a forensic patholoogist, economist or archaeologist.
>> Why does "engineer" excite you?
> Sigh. Because it is a classic feminist fantasy. RH
could do but can't in reality. There is no such bar to becoming
an engineer. Much easier to get into than journalism, vet school,
maths, history, ..., and a better career path than most of those
that you seem to think suitable.
>> Rich female engineers are more
>> common than rich females who are graduates of a large majority of
>> the 146 UCAS subject categories, and comparably common with all
>> the rest. Your MCP side is [again] showing.
> Even if they were it is irrelevant because it is the totality of rich
> girls from landowning backgrounds that matters, RH
opposed to unsupported [and implausible] allegations, to bring to
this debate?
--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
RH
Mar 14, 2013, 9:25:26 AM3/14/13
to
>
> >> You would not have turned a hair if she had been a vet, a
> >> philosopher, a forensic patholoogist, economist or archaeologist.
> >> Why does "engineer" excite you?
> > Sigh. Because it is a classic feminist fantasy. RH
>
> Really? Fantasies are usually about things you wish you
> could do but can't in reality.
Sigh. That is precisely the case with this fictional creation. It is
> >> You would not have turned a hair if she had been a vet, a
> >> philosopher, a forensic patholoogist, economist or archaeologist.
> >> Why does "engineer" excite you?
> > Sigh. Because it is a classic feminist fantasy. RH
>
> Really? Fantasies are usually about things you wish you
> could do but can't in reality.
the writer's fantasy. RH
There is no such bar to becoming
> an engineer. Much easier to get into than journalism, vet school,
> maths, history, ..., and a better career path than most of those
> that you seem to think suitable.
>
> >> Rich female engineers are more
> >> common than rich females who are graduates of a large majority of
> >> the 146 UCAS subject categories, and comparably common with all
> >> the rest. Your MCP side is [again] showing.
> > Even if they were it is irrelevant because it is the totality of rich
> > girls from landowning backgrounds that matters, RH
>
> You're not making any sense.
to be an engineer from a certain background is very rare if the
totality of other academic backgrounds is much greater than the
totality of engineers. RH
Osric
Mar 14, 2013, 4:21:11 PM3/14/13
to
>
> (As we kids used to say "Minnie, Minnie, tickle the Parson". But do kids
> today have a clue what that is about?)
>
>
Yes. Its a criminal offence many children are all too familiar with...
--
Osric
THE BORDERS OF MY COUNTRY
RUN AROUND THE SOLES OF MY FEET
Andy Walker
Mar 14, 2013, 9:29:35 PM3/14/13
to
On 14/03/13 13:25, RH wrote:
>>>> You would not have turned a hair if she had been a vet, a
>>>> philosopher, a forensic patholoogist, economist or archaeologist.
>>>> Why does "engineer" excite you?
>>> Sigh. Because it is a classic feminist fantasy. RH
>> Really? Fantasies are usually about things you wish you
>> could do but can't in reality.
> Sigh. That is precisely the case with this fictional creation. It is
> the writer's fantasy. RH
The whole programme, for over 60 years, has been a fantasy.
>>>> You would not have turned a hair if she had been a vet, a
>>>> philosopher, a forensic patholoogist, economist or archaeologist.
>>>> Why does "engineer" excite you?
>>> Sigh. Because it is a classic feminist fantasy. RH
>> Really? Fantasies are usually about things you wish you
>> could do but can't in reality.
> Sigh. That is precisely the case with this fictional creation. It is
> the writer's fantasy. RH
What you have not explained is why anyone should fantasise about
becoming an engineer. If you want to be an engineer, go ahead and
be an engineer. It's not like opening the batting for England or
discovering the cure for cancer or winning the lottery or being
dated by a film star -- something for which you need to be highly
talented or extremely lucky. It's a perfectly normal career, open
to anyone interested and of reasonable intelligence.
> [...] It makes perfect sense to say that
> to be an engineer from a certain background is very rare if the
> totality of other academic backgrounds is much greater than the
> totality of engineers. RH
But to have a birthday on [eg] September 20th is very rare
> totality of other academic backgrounds is much greater than the
> totality of engineers. RH
compared with the totality of birthdays. Merely being rare is not
of itself interesting, especially after the event. Given that Ms
Aldridge is, according to your account, the daughter of a rich
landowner with a degree and the wish to pursue a career, there is
*no* career available to her [or to the scriptwriters] that is
substantially more common in practice then engineer; there are
hundreds that are rarer, including several that appear regularly on
TV/film/books, both fact and fiction, without giving rise to adverse
comment when they feature women. Your attempted use of statistics
is simply not valid. Full stop.
>> Do you have any *facts*, as
>> opposed to unsupported [and implausible] allegations, to bring to
>> this debate?
--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
RH
Mar 15, 2013, 4:56:29 PM3/15/13
to
On Mar 15, 1:29 am, Andy Walker <n...@cuboid.co.uk> wrote:
> On 14/03/13 13:25, RH wrote:
>
> >>>> You would not have turned a hair if she had been a vet, a
> >>>> philosopher, a forensic patholoogist, economist or archaeologist.
> >>>> Why does "engineer" excite you?
> >>> Sigh. Because it is a classic feminist fantasy. RH
> >> Really? Fantasies are usually about things you wish you
> >> could do but can't in reality.
> > Sigh. That is precisely the case with this fictional creation. It is
> > the writer's fantasy. RH
>
> The whole programme, for over 60 years, has been a fantasy.
> What you have not explained is why anyone should fantasise about
> becoming an engineer.
Ye Gods! Because the writers are crazed feminists who deliberately
> On 14/03/13 13:25, RH wrote:
>
> >>>> You would not have turned a hair if she had been a vet, a
> >>>> philosopher, a forensic patholoogist, economist or archaeologist.
> >>>> Why does "engineer" excite you?
> >>> Sigh. Because it is a classic feminist fantasy. RH
> >> Really? Fantasies are usually about things you wish you
> >> could do but can't in reality.
> > Sigh. That is precisely the case with this fictional creation. It is
> > the writer's fantasy. RH
>
> The whole programme, for over 60 years, has been a fantasy.
> What you have not explained is why anyone should fantasise about
> becoming an engineer.
chose the most masculine of graduate subjects to promote their mad
ideas...RH
If you want to be an engineer, go ahead and
> be an engineer. It's not like opening the batting for England or
> discovering the cure for cancer or winning the lottery or being
> dated by a film star -- something for which you need to be highly
> talented or extremely lucky. It's a perfectly normal career, open
> to anyone interested and of reasonable intelligence.
>
> > [...] It makes perfect sense to say that
> > to be an engineer from a certain background is very rare if the
> > totality of other academic backgrounds is much greater than the
> > totality of engineers. RH
>
> But to have a birthday on [eg] September 20th is very rare
> compared with the totality of birthdays. Merely being rare is not
> of itself interesting, especially after the event. Given that Ms
> Aldridge is, according to your account, the daughter of a rich
> landowner with a degree and the wish to pursue a career, there is
> *no* career available to her [or to the scriptwriters] that is
> substantially more common in practice then engineer; there are
> hundreds that are rarer, including several that appear regularly on
> TV/film/books, both fact and fiction, without giving rise to adverse
> comment when they feature women. Your attempted use of statistics
> is simply not valid. Full stop.
rich girls from landowning families... RH
Andy Walker
Mar 15, 2013, 7:02:28 PM3/15/13
to
On 15/03/13 20:56, RH wrote:
>> What you have not explained is why anyone should fantasise about
>> becoming an engineer.
> Ye Gods! Because the writers are crazed feminists who deliberately
> chose the most masculine of graduate subjects to promote their mad
> ideas...RH
Have you been paying any sort of attention? People don't
>> What you have not explained is why anyone should fantasise about
>> becoming an engineer.
> Ye Gods! Because the writers are crazed feminists who deliberately
> chose the most masculine of graduate subjects to promote their mad
> ideas...RH
fantasise about everyday things that they can easily do if and when
they choose, they fantasise about things that are unattainable for
them. A "crazed feminist" would surely write about something that
women find difficult to achieve, not something they can do as freely
as men. If you think it's a "masculine" subject, whatever that
means, then you are simply ignorant -- as, of course, are many sixth-
formers [male and female] who still think of oil-cans and greasy
overalls. Certainly as a society we need to dispel that image. But
the thousands of female engineers who graduate each year in the UK
know better.
>> [...] Your attempted use of statistics
>> is simply not valid. Full stop.
> SIGH! All that matters is the number of graduate engineers who are
> rich girls from landowning families... RH
You write ignorant statistical rubbish. You have not given
> SIGH! All that matters is the number of graduate engineers who are
> rich girls from landowning families... RH
us *any* facts that would suggest that "rich girls from landowning
families" are more stupid or less technologically-minded than
"girls" of any other sort, nor any facts that would suggest even
*one* other career that is significantly more likely for Ms Aldridge.
You simply bleat on about numbers which you clearly don't understand,
and give absurd reasons why she should be doing an arty subject
instead. The world has moved on since you were a student.
--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
Avicenna
Mar 15, 2013, 8:06:11 PM3/15/13
to
Look, you chaps are being simply beastly by ignoring us younger sons.
It's all very jolly for oiks and townies, but some of us fellows with
oodles in the banky, well, really, we would like a jobbie-wobbie now
and then, just to keep mater off our backs. Just last week Buffy and
Tinky got blissy jobs at Tatler and Country Life. Poor Buffy had to,
he'd got Penny Montague harry-preggers and her pater waved the old 12-
bore.
Anyway, what one would like to say is that it's all very well and what
was I saying --------------------------------
It's all very jolly for oiks and townies, but some of us fellows with
oodles in the banky, well, really, we would like a jobbie-wobbie now
and then, just to keep mater off our backs. Just last week Buffy and
Tinky got blissy jobs at Tatler and Country Life. Poor Buffy had to,
he'd got Penny Montague harry-preggers and her pater waved the old 12-
bore.
Anyway, what one would like to say is that it's all very well and what
was I saying --------------------------------
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