Shadow Dancing (Might be spoilers!)
Andy Clark
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Just 3 points that may have been raised already, but I haven't got the
time to read through the whole newsgroup. Well here goes:
1) I suspect I may be right in suspecting that the 3 lights in the
Minbari 'Fish' cruiser are there to be filled by one representative
from each of the Minbari casts. If you want to question the time the
gray council were in a similar room, ask yourself how easily you
could create that effect in a single room given 12 spotlights!
2) I believe that it may be possible that, although the shadows have
at there disposal the facilities necessary to build (or breed, they
are 'living' ships), they may not have at there disposal the
missing ingedient to make them fully 'alive'. I suspect that the
last ingredient is probably telepaths, my supporting facts follow;
i) The incident were the B5 crew found out about Earth Alliance
getting a shadow ship by joining a human with it, which went crazy,
I assume this person was not a telepath, just a test to see if
normal humans could complete the jigsaw, or alternatively a test to
see the effects on a telepath when 'joined', to get it right the
next time.
ii) The large quantity of 'modified' telepaths, that would 'merge'
with their environment when fully awakened and destroy anything that
even mildly threatened 'it' in wild dis-trust.
iii) The way the Narn used to have telepaths, which disappeared
during the occupation during the last major confrontation. I propose
that the Narn's telepathic potential was harvested to provide an
extremely ruthless element to add to an already powerful killing
machine, in return they were not given a reason to fight against the
shadows, but when B4 went back in time to provide a boost to the
fight, combined with the new offensive knowledge that J Sinclair
would have been told about from J Sheridan, the shadow ships started
to be defeated. The shadows, not being used to this used up so many
of the telepaths on the Narn homeworld that the Gene disappeared
from the race, and so to the Shadows, they were now a 'dying' race
as far as telepathy, goes (link to Kosh's terminology when referring
to their usefulness). Notice at this point the way that the shadows
have gained control of key government decision makers in the
Centauri and Earth Alliance, two races that have telepathy, and have
not been in battle with the shadows before, and so are open to trust
them, especially when represented by a representative of the same
race. The Centauri were almost 'guided' to destroying the Narn, now
useless to the shadows but still very good fighters that the Minbari
could use in a struggle against them. And if you're wondering about
there being no infiltration into the Minbari government, remember
how involved they were in the previous struggle!
3) Finally, try thinking about the signicance of Ivanova having a
'black' raven on her shoulder, and Garibaldi haning a 'white' dove on
his. After all gray is half white and half black, half peace, half
war?
Well that's all for now, if you want me to read the replies I suggest
you E-mail a copy of your newsgroup reply to me.
Incidentally the E-mail address is A...@Chained.Demon.Co.Uk
Robin Lester
In article <323F20...@chained.demon.co.uk>
ap_c...@chained.demon.co.uk "Andy Clark" writes:
> Spolier space
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> Just 3 points that may have been raised already, but I haven't got the
> time to read through the whole newsgroup. Well here goes:
>
> 1) I suspect I may be right in suspecting that the 3 lights in the
> Minbari 'Fish' cruiser are there to be filled by one representative
> from each of the Minbari casts. If you want to question the time the
Don't think so, I think each ship is assigned to a certain class,
otherwise why would Delenn say `between the workers and the religious
cast we control 2/3 of the fleet'(SeDr) If there had been warriors on
board they may have halted the speed of which the ships got to B5.
It has been sugested by others that the 3rd light was set aside for Valen,
but then it may just be that in ships under normal command have the captain,
his first officer and the weapons officer, (or something like that)
> gray council were in a similar room, ask yourself how easily you
> could create that effect in a single room given 12 spotlights!
Why 12? There are 9 spotlights in the flag ship, plus a central light
for visitors. Don't quite know what you're getting at here, do you mean
using holagraphic images?
> 2) I believe that it may be possible that, although the shadows have
> at there disposal the facilities necessary to build (or breed, they
> are 'living' ships), they may not have at there disposal the
> missing ingedient to make them fully 'alive'. I suspect that the
> last ingredient is probably telepaths, my supporting facts follow;
No, the missing ingrediant is any inteligent life form. They need to
use the brain as a CPU.
> i) The incident were the B5 crew found out about Earth Alliance
> getting a shadow ship by joining a human with it, which went crazy,
Not crazy, just confused and bewildered after the joining, it would
have recovered after while.
> I assume this person was not a telepath, just a test to see if
> normal humans could complete the jigsaw, or alternatively a test to
> see the effects on a telepath when 'joined', to get it right the
> next time.
>
> ii) The large quantity of 'modified' telepaths, that would 'merge'
> with their environment when fully awakened and destroy anything that
> even mildly threatened 'it' in wild dis-trust.
Does not necessarly mean that only teeps could have joined, they were
using teeps so that their ships could not be blocked by other teeps
> iii) The way the Narn used to have telepaths, which disappeared
> during the occupation during the last major confrontation. I propose
> that the Narn's telepathic potential was harvested to provide an
> extremely ruthless element to add to an already powerful killing
> machine, in return they were not given a reason to fight against the
> shadows, but when B4 went back in time to provide a boost to the
> fight, combined with the new offensive knowledge that J Sinclair
> would have been told about from J Sheridan, the shadow ships started
> to be defeated. The shadows, not being used to this used up so many
Did Sinclaire know about the power teeps can have on Shadow ships?
> of the telepaths on the Narn homeworld that the Gene disappeared
> from the race, and so to the Shadows, they were now a 'dying' race
Doesn't it say somewhere in the book o G'Quarn that they just killed
them all so that they wouldn't get anymore trouble?
> as far as telepathy, goes (link to Kosh's terminology when referring
> to their usefulness). Notice at this point the way that the shadows
> have gained control of key government decision makers in the
> Centauri and Earth Alliance, two races that have telepathy, and have
Only two? I think not
> not been in battle with the shadows before, and so are open to trust
> them, especially when represented by a representative of the same
> race. The Centauri were almost 'guided' to destroying the Narn, now
> useless to the shadows
Could still be used to fly the Shadow ships
> but still very good fighters that the Minbari
> could use in a struggle against them. And if you're wondering about
> there being no infiltration into the Minbari government, remember
> how involved they were in the previous struggle!
>
> 3) Finally, try thinking about the signicance of Ivanova having a
> 'black' raven on her shoulder, and Garibaldi haning a 'white' dove on
> his. After all gray is half white and half black, half peace, half
> war?
>
> Well that's all for now, if you want me to read the replies I suggest
> you E-mail a copy of your newsgroup reply to me.
>
> Incidentally the E-mail address is A...@Chained.Demon.Co.Uk
>
--
Rob R...@glester.demon.co.uk
`It is bad enough to know the past; it would be intolerable to know the
future' - W.S Maugham
Andy Clark
Sorry, I just had to reply to this!
Robin Lester wrote:
>
> In article <323F20...@chained.demon.co.uk>
> ap_c...@chained.demon.co.uk "Andy Clark" writes:
>
> > Spolier space
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> > ;
> >
> > Just 3 points that may have been raised already, but I haven't got the
> > time to read through the whole newsgroup. Well here goes:
> >
> > 1) I suspect I may be right in suspecting that the 3 lights in the
> > Minbari 'Fish' cruiser are there to be filled by one representative
> > from each of the Minbari casts. If you want to question the time the
>
> Don't think so, I think each ship is assigned to a certain class,
> otherwise why would Delenn say `between the workers and the religious
> cast we control 2/3 of the fleet'(SeDr) If there had been warriors on
> board they may have halted the speed of which the ships got to B5.
>
> It has been sugested by others that the 3rd light was set aside for Valen,
> but then it may just be that in ships under normal command have the captain,
> his first officer and the weapons officer, (or something like that)
>
> > gray council were in a similar room, ask yourself how easily you
> > could create that effect in a single room given 12 spotlights!
>
> Why 12? There are 9 spotlights in the flag ship, plus a central light
> for visitors. Don't quite know what you're getting at here, do you mean
> using holagraphic images?
Obviously you didn't really think it through. If you were organising an
amateur setup of the same room the lighting effect of the 3 central
lights could be created with 3 spotlights, and by turning those 3 off,
and another 9 on, you could get the effect of the meeting placeof the
gray council, thus, with basic maths, 3 + 9 = 12. Try thinking about the
real world next time, this was not referencing how they do it, but how
YOU would do it!
>
> > 2) I believe that it may be possible that, although the shadows have
> > at there disposal the facilities necessary to build (or breed, they
> > are 'living' ships), they may not have at there disposal the
> > missing ingedient to make them fully 'alive'. I suspect that the
> > last ingredient is probably telepaths, my supporting facts follow;
>
> No, the missing ingrediant is any inteligent life form. They need to
> use the brain as a CPU.
>
Could you get any credible evidence to support that claim?
> > i) The incident were the B5 crew found out about Earth Alliance
> > getting a shadow ship by joining a human with it, which went crazy,
>
> Not crazy, just confused and bewildered after the joining, it would
> have recovered after while.
>
Well I believe JS and company thought it had gone crazy, I'm sure I can
remember them saying so!
> > I assume this person was not a telepath, just a test to see if
> > normal humans could complete the jigsaw, or alternatively a test to
> > see the effects on a telepath when 'joined', to get it right the
> > next time.
> >
> > ii) The large quantity of 'modified' telepaths, that would 'merge'
> > with their environment when fully awakened and destroy anything that
> > even mildly threatened 'it' in wild dis-trust.
>
> Does not necessarly mean that only teeps could have joined, they were
> using teeps so that their ships could not be blocked by other teeps
>
Again, I ask for credible evidence.
> > iii) The way the Narn used to have telepaths, which disappeared
> > during the occupation during the last major confrontation. I propose
> > that the Narn's telepathic potential was harvested to provide an
> > extremely ruthless element to add to an already powerful killing
> > machine, in return they were not given a reason to fight against the
> > shadows, but when B4 went back in time to provide a boost to the
> > fight, combined with the new offensive knowledge that J Sinclair
> > would have been told about from J Sheridan, the shadow ships started
> > to be defeated. The shadows, not being used to this used up so many
>
> Did Sinclaire know about the power teeps can have on Shadow ships?
>
It would have been pretty stupid for Sheridan not to have mentioned it
to him.
> > of the telepaths on the Narn homeworld that the Gene disappeared
> > from the race, and so to the Shadows, they were now a 'dying' race
>
> Doesn't it say somewhere in the book o G'Quarn that they just killed
> them all so that they wouldn't get anymore trouble?
>
Could someone else back this up.
> > as far as telepathy, goes (link to Kosh's terminology when referring
> > to their usefulness). Notice at this point the way that the shadows
> > have gained control of key government decision makers in the
> > Centauri and Earth Alliance, two races that have telepathy, and have
>
> Only two? I think not
>
Sorry I meant to say two 'MAJOR' races.
> > not been in battle with the shadows before, and so are open to trust
> > them, especially when represented by a representative of the same
> > race. The Centauri were almost 'guided' to destroying the Narn, now
> > useless to the shadows
>
> Could still be used to fly the Shadow ships
>
So why destroy them?
Robin Lester
In article <324047...@chained.demon.co.uk>
ap_c...@chained.demon.co.uk "Andy Clark" writes:
Ah, I see. But then it would be 13 with the central light, or just 10
that can be moved around.
> > > 2) I believe that it may be possible that, although the shadows have
> > > at there disposal the facilities necessary to build (or breed, they
> > > are 'living' ships), they may not have at there disposal the
> > > missing ingedient to make them fully 'alive'. I suspect that the
> > > last ingredient is probably telepaths, my supporting facts follow;
> >
> > No, the missing ingrediant is any inteligent life form. They need to
> > use the brain as a CPU.
> >
>
> Could you get any credible evidence to support that claim?
1) In SoT Delenn said that the shadows were trying to get teeps so that
they can block the AoL teeps, or words to that affect.
2) If the Shadows were using teeps as the CPU Lyta or the Minbari teeps
should not have been able to stop them.
> > > i) The incident were the B5 crew found out about Earth Alliance
> > > getting a shadow ship by joining a human with it, which went crazy,
> >
> > Not crazy, just confused and bewildered after the joining, it would
> > have recovered after while.
> >
>
> Well I believe JS and company thought it had gone crazy, I'm sure I can
> remember them saying so!
My memory serves me differently, but then I don't have the episode on
tape. Anyone?
> > > I assume this person was not a telepath, just a test to see if
> > > normal humans could complete the jigsaw, or alternatively a test to
> > > see the effects on a telepath when 'joined', to get it right the
> > > next time.
> > >
> > > ii) The large quantity of 'modified' telepaths, that would 'merge'
> > > with their environment when fully awakened and destroy anything that
> > > even mildly threatened 'it' in wild dis-trust.
> >
> > Does not necessarly mean that only teeps could have joined, they were
> > using teeps so that their ships could not be blocked by other teeps
> >
>
> Again, I ask for credible evidence.
And you have it, above /\
> > > iii) The way the Narn used to have telepaths, which disappeared
> > > during the occupation during the last major confrontation. I propose
> > > that the Narn's telepathic potential was harvested to provide an
> > > extremely ruthless element to add to an already powerful killing
> > > machine, in return they were not given a reason to fight against the
> > > shadows, but when B4 went back in time to provide a boost to the
> > > fight, combined with the new offensive knowledge that J Sinclair
> > > would have been told about from J Sheridan, the shadow ships started
> > > to be defeated. The shadows, not being used to this used up so many
> >
> > Did Sinclaire know about the power teeps can have on Shadow ships?
> >
>
> It would have been pretty stupid for Sheridan not to have mentioned it
> to him.
Or absent minded in the big rush that is WWEII, but perhaps the Vorlons
told him.
> > > of the telepaths on the Narn homeworld that the Gene disappeared
> > > from the race, and so to the Shadows, they were now a 'dying' race
> >
> > Doesn't it say somewhere in the book o G'Quarn that they just killed
> > them all so that they wouldn't get anymore trouble?
> >
>
> Could someone else back this up.
Please!
> > > as far as telepathy, goes (link to Kosh's terminology when referring
> > > to their usefulness). Notice at this point the way that the shadows
> > > have gained control of key government decision makers in the
> > > Centauri and Earth Alliance, two races that have telepathy, and have
> >
> > Only two? I think not
> >
>
> Sorry I meant to say two 'MAJOR' races.
>
> > > not been in battle with the shadows before, and so are open to trust
> > > them, especially when represented by a representative of the same
> > > race. The Centauri were almost 'guided' to destroying the Narn, now
> > > useless to the shadows
> >
> > Could still be used to fly the Shadow ships
> >
>
> So why destroy them?
1) Divide and conquer
2) There are a lot of Narns and only a few Shadow ships
3) The Shadows did not want to be seen in the open at the time and so
left all of the handling of the Narn to the Centauri. (Although
they may have had a few shiped to them)
Richard John Challis
Posted and cc'ed to Andys email address
> Sorry, I just had to reply to this!
>
> Robin Lester wrote:
> >
> > In article <323F20...@chained.demon.co.uk>
> > ap_c...@chained.demon.co.uk "Andy Clark" writes:
> >
> > > Spolier space
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;;
> > > ;
> > > ;;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > >
> > > ;
> > > ;;
> > >
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > > ;;
> > >
> > > ;;
> > > ;
> > > ;
> > >
> > Why 12? There are 9 spotlights in the flag ship, plus a central light
> > for visitors. Don't quite know what you're getting at here, do you mean
> > using holagraphic images?
>
> Obviously you didn't really think it through. If you were organising an
> amateur setup of the same room the lighting effect of the 3 central
> lights could be created with 3 spotlights, and by turning those 3 off,
> and another 9 on, you could get the effect of the meeting placeof the
> gray council, thus, with basic maths, 3 + 9 = 12. Try thinking about the
> real world next time, this was not referencing how they do it, but how
> YOU would do it!
Andy did someone put salt in your coffee? :)
I think that the Minbair equivelent of the Vari*lite has been used,
As Robin said 20 mins later, 10 would be required. Since the Minbari
use the very well rated Bank of Minbar (VIP section) then I think
the Min*lite corp would be very willing to have more than 10 leased
to the Minbari Concel.
Junior Minbari:
"Daddy when I grow up, can I be a Min*lite programmer? Please!?"
(Could that Junior have become the person just seen in the shot in the
B5 CD insert, proving that Nike has finally reached Minbar and tech
crews even on other planets still look the same (Unfortunally I could'nt
see if the cellure phone was clipped to his Jeans, which would have
been the final proof. I will have to get Mulder onto the case.....)
The truth is out there....
Rich
--
Richard Challis, Bath, UK Internet: ric...@challrj.demon.co.uk
Reg No 68, Babylon 5 - The Wrap Party <http://www.bilpin.co.uk/TheWrapParty>
Thru' Caffeine my path is made clear.