A couple of idle thoughts..

[Dev]

Discussions on umra seems to lead a few days later to Guardian articles.

Scientists think that 85% of the mass in the universe consists of wimps:
I'm not alone in the universe!

--
Dev

Om Namah Shivaya | Om Bheemaya namaha

[Frederick Williams]

Dev wrote:
>
> Discussions on umra seems to lead a few days later to Guardian articles.
>
> Scientists think that 85% of the mass in the universe consists of wimps:
> I'm not alone in the universe!

What about cucumbers?

--
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by
this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.
Jonathan Swift: Thoughts on Various Subjects, Moral and Diverting

[Dev]

In article <50A8DA4C...@btinternet.com>,

Frederick Williams <freddyw...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Dev wrote:
> >
> > Discussions on umra seems to lead a few days later to Guardian articles.
> >
> > Scientists think that 85% of the mass in the universe consists of wimps:
> > I'm not alone in the universe!

> What about cucumbers?

Some women enjoy them.

--
Dev

Om Namah Shivaya | Om Pinaakine namaha

[Sebastian Lisken]

I have been informed that Borgen, series 2 is to be aired on German TV.
(Since I hardly watch any German TV, I need my informers for this.) The
problem with that is that the Germans of course show a dubbed version,
which for me makes it completely unacceptable. I was therefore wondering
whether it's known when the BBC will show it. It was said early this
year that they would, but I can't find any dates on a quick search.
Can't let the Germans get ahead on this one. :-) Any ideas?

Sebastian

[Sebastian Lisken]

Oh no, I forgot to delete the References line so this has been posted
within a thread. I know what will happen now. But I'll do the decent
thing anyway and repost.

Sebastian

[Sebastian Lisken]

[Badriya]

On 19 Nov 2012 10:54:43 GMT, Sebastian Lisken

Have we already seen series 2 once? I am sure I saw series 1.

[Nick Odell]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 11:30:22 +0000, Badriya <vicky...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I only have Borgen (One) on Disk Tobewatched

Incidentally, I am trying very hard to reach the end of The Killing II
before the rest of the world reaches the end of The Killing III so
that I can join in some of the discussions in real(ish) time and I'd
appreciate not stumbling across out-of-thread spoilers on the subject,
pretty please? Not that anyone has posted any out-of-thread spoilers
that I've come across. Just sayin', as they say.

Nick

[Jo Lonergan]

On 19 Nov 2012 10:52:40 GMT, Sebastian Lisken

According to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borgen_%28TV_series%29#Season_2_.282011.29
series 2 will be airing from January 2013.

I wonder what will fill in between the end of The Killing III and Borgen II?
There are references to a Norwegian series called Lilyhammer, which the Beeb has
bought, could it be that?

--
Jo

[Marmaduke Jinks]

"Jo Lonergan" <jolon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c69la8l2rk6mkmdde...@4ax.com...

Lillehammer is already on. (It stars Miami Steve van Zandt aka Little
Stevie)

MJ

[the Omrud]

I think there's this Christmas thing which fills in the time between
Danish series.

--
David

[john ashby]

Which explains the jumpers.

john

[K Richard Whitbread]

Jo Lonergan <jolon...@hotmail.com> wrote

>There are references to a Norwegian series called Lilyhammer, which the
>Beeb has bought, could it be that?

That is on Mounttobewatched.
--
Kosmo Richard W
SNELLSS

[Sebastian Lisken]

Jo Lonergan <jolon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> According to
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borgen_%28TV_series%29#Season_2_.282011.29
> series 2 will be airing from January 2013.

Oh, I should have seen that - thanks, Jo! Must stay away from the
German friends that have become fans of an obscure series called
"Gefährliche Seilschaften" (dangerous insider relationships), which
is both the German title for Borgen (did I say I find translating
stupid?) and a play on "Gefährliche Liebschaften", which is the German
title for "dangerous liasons" (did I say ...?).

Sebastian

[Chris J Dixon]

Marmaduke Jinks wrote:

>"Jo Lonergan" <jolon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

>> There are references to a Norwegian series called Lilyhammer, which the
>> Beeb has
>> bought, could it be that?

>Lillehammer is already on. (It stars Miami Steve van Zandt aka Little
>Stevie)

Been and gone, DVD due out any time.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/32 M B+ G+ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar+ T+ H0 ?Q
ch...@cdixon.me.uk
Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

[Mike Ruddock]

"Sebastian Lisken" <lis...@math.Uni-Bielefeld-deletethis.de> wrote in
message news:ah04q2...@mid.dfncis.de...

[minor snippage]

> Oh, I should have seen that - thanks, Jo! Must stay away from the
> German friends that have become fans of an obscure series called
> "Gefährliche Seilschaften" (dangerous insider relationships), which
> is both the German title for Borgen (did I say I find translating
> stupid?)

In that connection, Sebastian, you might find a book I have just read of
some interest.

It is called "Is That a Fish in Your Ear?" (1) it was written by David
Bellos and published by Penguin. Bellos is British by birth but currently
Director of the Program in Translation and Intercultural Communication at
Princeton University.

The book is a study of problems in translation and written with wit and élan
and seems to cover all aspects of translation. Well worth a read by anyone
interested in the problems.


Mike Ruddock

1. I don't need to point out the reference do I?

[Sebastian Lisken]

"Mike Ruddock" <michael...@mypostoffice.co.uk> wrote:
>> did I say I find translating stupid?)
>
> In that connection, Sebastian, you might find a book I have just read of
> some interest.

Thanks, I'd like to get my hands on that book. Now how does one keep
track of book recommendations? I think I'll make it a task in my calendar
(the Lightning add-on to Thunderbird). :-)

> It is called "Is That a Fish in Your Ear?" (1)

> 1. I don't need to point out the reference do I?

No. It doesn't quite work with "or are you just pleased to see me",
though. :-)

Sebastian

[Sebastian Lisken]

I forgot to add this in my other response:

"Mike Ruddock" <michael...@mypostoffice.co.uk> wrote:
> "Sebastian Lisken" <lis...@math.Uni-Bielefeld-deletethis.de> wrote in
> message news:ah04q2...@mid.dfncis.de...
>
> [minor snippage]
>
>> Oh, I should have seen that - thanks, Jo! Must stay away from the
>> German friends that have become fans of an obscure series called
>> "Gefährliche Seilschaften" (dangerous insider relationships), which
>> is both the German title for Borgen (did I say I find translating
>> stupid?)
>
> In that connection, Sebastian, you might find a book I have just read of
> some interest.

I hope it has become clear that I find translating stupid only with
respect to dubbed films, where the translated titles reveal a further
problem with translating, and where an alternative (subtitles)
is available. In general, of course, translating is a valuable
service and a fascinating subject (hence my positive response to the
book recommendation). I've been at it for a long time, among other
occasions I'm part of a team of volunteer interpreters at the Chaos
Communication Congress that takes place between Christmas and New
Year's Eve every year.

Sebastian

[Chris Brown]

"Mike Ruddock" <michael...@mypostoffice.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ah0ul1...@mid.individual.net...

I have little of use to contribute, except to second that recommendation.
Also to mention that one chapter deals specifically with the actors used for
German TV and film dubbing.

Chris
--
"Back next week with another ridiculous tie knot"

The Hit Parade Blog - now with added 1997!
http://thehitparade.blogspot.com/search/label/Charting%201997

http://nowthats.blogspot.com

http://jottingsbythescribe.blogspot.com

[Ralph B]

"Chris Brown" <extrem...@yahoospam.com> wrote:
> "Mike Ruddock" <michael...@mypostoffice.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ah0ul1...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>
>> "Sebastian Lisken" <lis...@math.Uni-Bielefeld-deletethis.de> wrote in >
>> message news:ah04q2...@mid.dfncis.de...
>>
>> [minor snippage]
>>
>>> Oh, I should have seen that - thanks, Jo! Must stay away from the
>>> German friends that have become fans of an obscure series called
>>> "Gefährliche Seilschaften" (dangerous insider relationships), which
>>> is both the German title for Borgen (did I say I find translating
>>> stupid?)
>>
>> In that connection, Sebastian, you might find a book I have just read of > some interest.
>>
>> It is called "Is That a Fish in Your Ear?" (1) it was written by David
>> > Bellos and published by Penguin. Bellos is British by birth but
>>> currently > Director of the Program in Translation and Intercultural
>>> Communication at > Princeton University.
>>
>> The book is a study of problems in translation and written with wit and
>> > élan and seems to cover all aspects of translation. Well worth a read
>>> by > anyone interested in the problems.
>
> I have little of use to contribute, except to second that recommendation.
> Also to mention that one chapter deals specifically with the actors used
> for German TV and film dubbing.

Ooh, I know that one. The same set of 5 German voice actors do the dubbing
of all films of every genre, if you know what I mean. Most off-putting it
is sometimes. Homer Simpson is Dirty Harry. Or similar.

[Jo Lonergan]

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 06:36:26 +0000 (UTC), Ralph B
<surprisingly.this...@spampot.com> wrote:

>Ooh, I know that one. The same set of 5 German voice actors do the dubbing
>of all films of every genre, if you know what I mean. Most off-putting it
>is sometimes. Homer Simpson is Dirty Harry. Or similar.

Yes, it's like the actor (who died recently, so we'll have to get another one)
who did all the voice-overs for all the film trailers.

--
Jo

[Sebastian Lisken]

Sebastian Lisken <lis...@math.Uni-Bielefeld-deletethis.de> wrote:
> I hope it has become clear that I find translating stupid only with
> respect to dubbed films, where the translated titles reveal a further
> problem with translating, and where an alternative (subtitles)
> is available.

I've just looked at (but tried hard not to read) a German (p)review
of series 2 at
<http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/tv/tv-serie-gefaehrliche-seilschaften-zweite-staffel-startet-auf-arte-a-868204-druck.html>.
It illustrates two secondary but hugely annoying aspects of what
is wrong with dubbing. The article doesn't even mention the fact
that the series is dubbed. So the fact that what the viewers get
is changed from the original artwork, and that there's an acoustic
glass wall between the viewer and the place where the work takes us,
is not acknowledged, it is regarded as normal. And it doesn't even
once mention the original title. When my German friend told me she
was looking forward to series 2 of "Gef�hrliche Seilschaften" I simply
didn't know for a while what she was talking about. And it had been me
who'd put her on to it in the first place. How dare they absorb the
series to an extent where it becomes almost unrecognisable? This is
all so wrong.

Sebastian

[Nick Odell]

On 21 Nov 2012 09:18:11 GMT, Sebastian Lisken

<lis...@math.Uni-Bielefeld-deletethis.de> wrote:

>Sebastian Lisken <lis...@math.Uni-Bielefeld-deletethis.de> wrote:
>> I hope it has become clear that I find translating stupid only with
>> respect to dubbed films, where the translated titles reveal a further
>> problem with translating, and where an alternative (subtitles)
>> is available.
>
>I've just looked at (but tried hard not to read) a German (p)review
>of series 2 at
><http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/tv/tv-serie-gefaehrliche-seilschaften-zweite-staffel-startet-auf-arte-a-868204-druck.html>.
>It illustrates two secondary but hugely annoying aspects of what
>is wrong with dubbing. The article doesn't even mention the fact
>that the series is dubbed. So the fact that what the viewers get
>is changed from the original artwork, and that there's an acoustic
>glass wall between the viewer and the place where the work takes us,
>is not acknowledged, it is regarded as normal. And it doesn't even
>once mention the original title. When my German friend told me she

>was looking forward to series 2 of "Gefährliche Seilschaften" I simply

>didn't know for a while what she was talking about. And it had been me
>who'd put her on to it in the first place. How dare they absorb the
>series to an extent where it becomes almost unrecognisable? This is
>all so wrong.

I don't enjoy dubbed film and television very much but it doesn't make
me angry. I avoid the vast majority of TV output anyway (not having a
television helps) and if something doesn't compel me in the first
place it doesn't get on the viewing list, dubbed or not.

I think that you view dubbing as an interference with the original
artwork: in that case, why isn't subtitling considered an interference
with the original photography? There's a long tradition of adding
layers to an artwork and making something new: Shakespeare's Taming of
the Shrew morphed into Kiss me Kate and 10 Things I Hate About You
(amongst others); books morph into films and musicals; Forbrydelsen
morphed into an English-speaking Seattle-based cop-show called The
Killing. One is not obliged to enjoy any of them. If one of your
objections to dubbed soundtracks is that too many are too poorly done,
I'd agree. But many other reworkings are badly done too and I think
that the answer is just to relax and enjoy those things that are
enjoyable to you and ignore the rest.

Nick

[Sebastian Lisken]

Nick Odell <ni...@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote:
> I think that you view dubbing as an interference with the original
> artwork: in that case, why isn't subtitling considered an interference
> with the original photography?

Yes, that is one of my points, and your question is of course a valid
one. But I hope you'd agree that subtitles are less of an interference.
They are not supposed to cover up the photography. Given enough screen
space, they could actually be positioned below the image. If I get a
film as a digital file, I do prefer it when I can get the subtitles as
a separate text file rather than "imprinted" into the video image. I
can then use VLC player and change font size, even set partial
transparency, and use the "V" key to switch subtitles off and on. On
the other hand, dubbing creates a new audio track (possibly produced
using original sound, but not always) that completely covers up at
least the voices.

I want to watch every movie in the original, whether I understand the
language or not, so obviously I need some kind of alteration. I also
agree that subtitles make watching such movies more "work", and the
added difficulty is more for some films than for others. But that's
the price I have to pay, and I'm willing to do that.

> There's a long tradition of adding
> layers to an artwork and making something new: Shakespeare's Taming of
> the Shrew morphed into Kiss me Kate and 10 Things I Hate About You
> (amongst others); books morph into films and musicals; Forbrydelsen
> morphed into an English-speaking Seattle-based cop-show called The
> Killing. One is not obliged to enjoy any of them. If one of your
> objections to dubbed soundtracks is that too many are too poorly done,
> I'd agree. But many other reworkings are badly done too and I think
> that the answer is just to relax and enjoy those things that are
> enjoyable to you and ignore the rest.

Dubbing in Germany is a huge industry and it's mostly very well done,
so that is not my objection. It's just wrong, wrong, wrong. :-)

Sebastian

[Sebastian Lisken]

Sebastian Lisken <lis...@math.Uni-Bielefeld-deletethis.de> wrote:
> Dubbing in Germany is a huge industry and it's mostly very well done,
> so that is not my objection. It's just wrong, wrong, wrong. :-)

Actually, I can't really say how well it's done. It's mostly very
convincing, that's all I can say. I don't analyse in detail how well
the original is transported into the new language. Clearly every now
and then there is something where translating is very hard indeed,
be it via dubbing or subtitles. I sometimes come across reviews or
anti-dubbing pamphlets with claims that a certain dubbing was done
badly, but as that is not my main point, I don't keep statistics
either. :-)

Sebastian

[Kate Brown]

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012, Sebastian Lisken wrote

What I always notice is that the ambient sound is wrong. Where the
original will have a bit of background noise and different voices sound
as if they are different distances away from the camera, a dubbed track
is all in the same place, and usually too close to the mike.

But the base argument is a well-worn one in operatic circles - to sing
in the original language, with all its nuance and integration of word
and music, or to sing in translation, which is more direct for an
audience and makes more sense if the singers are not fluent in the
original. What is indisputable is that translation makes it a different
work - maybe more suited to its audience, but different.

--
Kate B

PS nospam means nospam. But umra at cockaigne dot org dot uk will get through!

[Mike Brown]

Jo Lonergan wrote:

> According to <http://tinyurl.com/cufquok>

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borgen_%28TV_series%29#Season_2_.282011.29>
> series 2 will be airing from January 2013.

Excellent!

(By coincidence I was wondering about this just a few days ago.)

--
SOUNDSCAPE -- acoustic, new-age, smooth jazz and instrumentals
Live on Saturdays from 2-4pm at http://www.redruthradio.co.uk/
Catch-up/podcasts at http://www.originalsound.co.uk/soundscape/

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <0i4pa8pjfs13m9v8d...@4ax.com>, Jo Lonergan

Not the gravelly-voiced one? Although I don't wish anybody dead, I could
happily live without his being replaced.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If vegetarians eat vegetables,..beware of humanitarians!

[Marjorie]

But at least you don't get opera dubbed into another language - that
would be quite hilariously awful, as lots of the extended vowels would
be wrong.

--
Marjorie

To reply, replace dontusethisaddress with marje

[Nick Odell]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 08:28:33 +0000, Marjorie
<dontuseth...@springequinox.co.uk> wrote:


>But at least you don't get opera dubbed into another language - that
>would be quite hilariously awful, as lots of the extended vowels would
>be wrong.

Surely that's the same as singing in a language other than the
original?

Nick

[Marjorie]

No, I mean over-dubbed so that although the person is singing in
Italian, what the audience hears is a synched version in English. This
could only happen where the performance is filmed, of course, or shown
on a large screen with the original vocals silenced.

[Jo Lonergan]

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 11:14:06 +0000, Kate Brown <elv...@nospam.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

A third variant, popular in Basel, is to sing in the original and have German
surtitles, so that the audience can be completely disoriented by finding that
what they're watching seems to have no relation to the words that are being sung
:-(

--
Jo

[Jo Lonergan]

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 21:19:15 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
<G6...@soft255.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <0i4pa8pjfs13m9v8d...@4ax.com>, Jo Lonergan
><jolon...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 06:36:26 +0000 (UTC), Ralph B
>><surprisingly.this...@spampot.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Ooh, I know that one. The same set of 5 German voice actors do the dubbing
>>>of all films of every genre, if you know what I mean. Most off-putting it
>>>is sometimes. Homer Simpson is Dirty Harry. Or similar.
>>
>>Yes, it's like the actor (who died recently, so we'll have to get another one)
>>who did all the voice-overs for all the film trailers.
>>
>Not the gravelly-voiced one? Although I don't wish anybody dead, I could
>happily live without his being replaced.

This one, I think
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/Movies/09/02/obit.lafontaine/index.html

--
Jo

[Jo Lonergan]

On 21 Nov 2012 09:18:11 GMT, Sebastian Lisken
<lis...@math.Uni-Bielefeld-deletethis.de> wrote:

>Sebastian Lisken <lis...@math.Uni-Bielefeld-deletethis.de> wrote:
>> I hope it has become clear that I find translating stupid only with
>> respect to dubbed films, where the translated titles reveal a further
>> problem with translating, and where an alternative (subtitles)
>> is available.
>
>I've just looked at (but tried hard not to read) a German (p)review
>of series 2 at
><http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/tv/tv-serie-gefaehrliche-seilschaften-zweite-staffel-startet-auf-arte-a-868204-druck.html>.
>It illustrates two secondary but hugely annoying aspects of what
>is wrong with dubbing. The article doesn't even mention the fact
>that the series is dubbed. So the fact that what the viewers get
>is changed from the original artwork, and that there's an acoustic
>glass wall between the viewer and the place where the work takes us,
>is not acknowledged, it is regarded as normal. And it doesn't even
>once mention the original title. When my German friend told me she

>was looking forward to series 2 of "Gefährliche Seilschaften" I simply

>didn't know for a while what she was talking about. And it had been me
>who'd put her on to it in the first place. How dare they absorb the
>series to an extent where it becomes almost unrecognisable? This is
>all so wrong.
>

There's a growing and depressing tendency here to dub films into German (or
rather to show the existing dubbed version which would be shown in Germany, I
suppose). It used to be that only children's films were shown dubbed, and even
then if there was any adult interest in them they'd be shown dubbed in the
afternoon and OV in the evening. I blame the EU reciprocal agreements, as there
are far more Germans working here than there used to be.

Present company always excepted, of course, and I've a feeling that dubbing has
long been the norm in Bern?

--
Jo

[Sebastian Lisken]

Jo Lonergan <jolon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> A third variant, popular in Basel, is to sing in the original and have
> German surtitles, so that the audience can be completely disoriented
> by finding that what they're watching seems to have no relation to
> the words that are being sung :-(

Why is there no relation? (I've been to an opera performance with
such surtitles, and found them helpful.)

Sebastian

[Sebastian Lisken]

Jo Lonergan <jolon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> There's a growing and depressing tendency here to dub films into German
> (or rather to show the existing dubbed version which would be shown
> in Germany, I suppose). It used to be that only children's films were
> shown dubbed, and even then if there was any adult interest in them
> they'd be shown dubbed in the afternoon and OV in the evening. I
> blame the EU reciprocal agreements, as there are far more Germans
> working here than there used to be.

How dare any German emigrate to Switzerland for any other reason than the
subtitled films in Swiss cinemas!

> Present company always excepted, of course, and I've a feeling that
> dubbing has long been the norm in Bern?

No, it seems to be rising but it's not the norm - see
http://www.cineman.ch/kinoprogramm/Bern/
and also a collection of articles at
http://www.bernerzeitung.ch/dossiers/dossier2.html?dossier_id=1730
which includes an interview with the head of Warner Switzerland, at
http://www.bernerzeitung.ch/kultur/kino/Im-Zweifelsfall-untertiteln-wir/story/28898052

Sebastian

[Chris J Dixon]

Seen (and heard) here, with colleagues:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQRtuxdfQHw

[Kate Brown]

On Fri, 23 Nov 2012, Sebastian Lisken wrote

Sometimes it's just the word-order. Dead giveaway when the audience
laughs before the actual punchline. At other times it's when the sneaky
director has deliberately mangled the surtitles to reflect what bonkers
interpretation his (and it is usually he, and usually a German...)
production is wreaking on some harmless 19thC warhorse.

[Rosalind Mitchell]

Kate Brown <elv...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:

Every time the idea of opera in the vernacular is puffed I think of the
climactic scene in Tosca and how it renders into English.

Die!… Die!
He's dead!

And I think, no thanks.

Rosko



--
Currently reading: The End of the Party by Andrew Rawnsley

[Mike Ruddock]

"Sebastian Lisken" <lis...@math.Uni-Bielefeld-deletethis.de> wrote in

message news:ah8tho...@mid.dfncis.de...

Sorry to interrupt, but I thought Sebastian might like to know that next
week the BBC are launching a series of "Letters from Germany" at 1345 (GMT)
on R4.

Mike Ruddock
>

[Badriya]

I thought Iheard something else about Germany that wouldbe on the WS,
but it might have been that. It was various programmes next week, one
being how Germany thinks it is represented nowadays, what its image is
like.

[Robin Fairbairns]

Frederick Williams <freddyw...@btinternet.com> writes:

> Dev wrote:
>>
>> Discussions on umra seems to lead a few days later to Guardian articles.
>>
>> Scientists think that 85% of the mass in the universe consists of wimps:
>> I'm not alone in the universe!
>
> What about cucumbers?

what about the workers?
--
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge
sorry about all this posting. i'll go back to sleep in a bit.

[Jo Lonergan]

On 23 Nov 2012 08:46:20 GMT, Sebastian Lisken

If the surtitles tell you what the words being sung mean, but the staging
ignores the words and has almost a different plot, you tend to notice it,
whereas if you didn't understand what was being sung they might get away with,
for example, Macbeth as a political piece about class warfare in a job centre.

--
Jo

[Robin Fairbairns]

Dev <spam...@no.spam.invalid> writes:

> Discussions on umra seems to lead a few days later to Guardian articles.

hadn't noticed that; but then i'm regularly ages behind the bleeding
edge of umratic thinking.

> Scientists think that 85% of the mass in the universe consists of wimps:
> I'm not alone in the universe!

wimp is an acronym for "weakly interacting massive particles".

within the meaning of the terms, you're built of lots and lots of
massive particles.

however, i've not felt your interactions were weak: indeed, i've found
them nicely expressed (and occasionally witty enough to read out to
lff).

all of which being said, i should dismiss your claim, but would point
out that you are indeed not alone, on the grounds that there are other
witty umrats.

[Jo Lonergan]

On Fri, 23 Nov 2012 10:42:34 +0000, Kate Brown <elv...@nospam.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

>On Fri, 23 Nov 2012, Sebastian Lisken wrote
>>Jo Lonergan <jolon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> A third variant, popular in Basel, is to sing in the original and have
>>> German surtitles, so that the audience can be completely disoriented
>>> by finding that what they're watching seems to have no relation to
>>> the words that are being sung :-(
>>
>>Why is there no relation? (I've been to an opera performance with
>>such surtitles, and found them helpful.)
>>
>
>Sometimes it's just the word-order. Dead giveaway when the audience
>laughs before the actual punchline. At other times it's when the sneaky
>director has deliberately mangled the surtitles to reflect what bonkers
>interpretation his (and it is usually he, and usually a German...)
>production is wreaking on some harmless 19thC warhorse.

Also Swiss, but being Swiss they don't usually mangle the subtitles.

--
Jo

[Jo Lonergan]

On Fri, 23 Nov 2012 10:52:22 +0000, Rosalind Mitchell
<rcmit...@golgonooza.co.uk> wrote:

>Kate Brown <elv...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>Every time the idea of opera in the vernacular is puffed I think of the
>climactic scene in Tosca and how it renders into English.
>
>Die!… Die!
>He's dead!
>
>And I think, no thanks.

I do hope that's not how they translate "Questo e il bacio il baccio di Tosca!"

--
Jo

[Nick Leverton]

In article <qf1ufkx...@dev-rf10-linux.cl.cam.ac.uk>,

Robin Fairbairns <rf...@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>Frederick Williams <freddyw...@btinternet.com> writes:
>
>> Dev wrote:
>>>
>>> Discussions on umra seems to lead a few days later to Guardian articles.
>>>
>>> Scientists think that 85% of the mass in the universe consists of wimps:
>>> I'm not alone in the universe!
>>
>> What about cucumbers?
>
>what about the workers?

Up the workers !

Up the cu ..... nevermind.

Nick
--
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996

[Dev]

In article <1scva8hdlunit8li0...@4ax.com>,

"Search that Tuscan girl for illicit tobacco"?

--
Dev

Om Namah Shivaya | Om Mrutyumjayaya namaha

[Ralph B]

Interesting. I've long noted the Stadt-Land-Graben with regard subtitling.
Thankfully little Baden counts as a sophisticated, educated city rather
than the similarly sized but apparently provisional, inbred village of
Brugg.

I never go to see dubbed fillums (and therefore also never watch fillums on
German TV) and the cinema subtitles (in 2 or 3 languages, mind) used to
disturb me. But now, with my aging ears sometimes failing in noisy
sections, I occasionally find myself checking the German subtitles to find
out what was said in the English audio. For the same reason I often watch
DVDs at home with the English subtitles. (That habit began as a help to
wofe for whom English is not her mothertongue.)

[Jo Lonergan]

Confused her with Carmen, dammit!

I saw the actual factory where Carmen worked when I was in Seville, it was
surprisingly grand-looking. Or rather, where she didn't, as the workforce was
entirely male. Another illusion shattered.

--
Jo

[Dr Nick]

Dev <spam...@no.spam.invalid> writes:

> Discussions on umra seems to lead a few days later to Guardian
> articles.

On which note, I came across a column there yesterday (I don't normally
read the Guardian, but it was the only paper available when I had a few
minutes to kill in a library) about BBC bias.

The author commented that it was quite clear to her that the BBC was
pro-government, and she was astonished that anyone thought differently.
She quoted as evidence (IIRC) that they have been uncritical of
Cameron's approach to Europe and that they rarely have anyone from
Labour on - viewing a Lib Dem and a Conservative as a balanced debate.

In the light of recent comments here I thought that was interesting.
Particularly as I think you could spin the last point in just the other
direction and say they were trying to drive a wedge between the parts of
the coalition.

I wasn't convinced, but found it interesting that people clearly do see
it that way and it helped confirm my views that it isn't directly
party-political.

[Dev]

In article <r1u0b8hi40b1317hd...@4ax.com>, Jo Lonergan

<jolon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Nov 2012 19:47:17 +0000 (GMT), Dev <spam...@no.spam.invalid>
> wrote:

> >In article <1scva8hdlunit8li0...@4ax.com>, Jo Lonergan
> > <jolon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 23 Nov 2012 10:52:22 +0000, Rosalind Mitchell
> >> <rcmit...@golgonooza.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> >Kate Brown <elv...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
> >> >
> >> >Every time the idea of opera in the vernacular is puffed I think of
> >> >the climactic scene in Tosca and how it renders into English.
> >> >
> >> >Die!… Die! He's dead!
> >> >
> >> >And I think, no thanks.
> >
> >> I do hope that's not how they translate "Questo e il bacio il baccio
> >> di Tosca!"
> >
> >"Search that Tuscan girl for illicit tobacco"?

> Confused her with Carmen, dammit!

> I saw the actual factory where Carmen worked when I was in Seville, it
> was surprisingly grand-looking. Or rather, where she didn't, as the
> workforce was entirely male. Another illusion shattered.

But were women employed there prior to 1830 which seems to be the earliest
date for the story's origin?

--
Dev

Om Namah Shivaya | Om Yagnya-mayaaya namaha

[Jo Lonergan]

Good point, according to Wikipedia the factory was closed several times and
re-opened in 1829 (phew!) with an entirely female workforce. It seems that women
were considered better at making cigars (men just don't have the right kind of
thighs, I expect)

So my illusions are reinstated.

--
Jo

[Dev]

In article <j4m1b8lrt8nsmm5d3...@4ax.com>, Jo Lonergan

So are mine! ;-)

--
Dev

Om Namah Shivaya | Om Sharwaya namaha

[Sebastian Lisken]

Ralph B <surprisingly.this...@spampot.com> wrote:
> But now, with my aging ears sometimes failing in noisy
> sections, I occasionally find myself checking the German subtitles to find
> out what was said in the English audio. For the same reason I often watch
> DVDs at home with the English subtitles. (That habit began as a help to
> wofe for whom English is not her mothertongue.)

Well, I too have found that even decades of TA doesn't completely
prepare you to comprehend films, I must admit.

Sebastian

[Jo Lonergan]

On 25 Nov 2012 04:24:17 GMT, Sebastian Lisken

<lis...@math.Uni-Bielefeld-deletethis.de> wrote:

>Ralph B <surprisingly.this...@spampot.com> wrote:
>> But now, with my aging ears sometimes failing in noisy
>> sections, I occasionally find myself checking the German subtitles to find
>> out what was said in the English audio.

YANA

>>For the same reason I often watch
>> DVDs at home with the English subtitles. (That habit began as a help to
>> wofe for whom English is not her mothertongue.)
>

YANA there, either.

>Well, I too have found that even decades of TA doesn't completely
>prepare you to comprehend films, I must admit.
>

Films have more intrusive background noise, especially in recent years (or am I
going deaf, also a possibility?). Also of course they're often speaking
American. TA limits itself to a sketched-in background, and all the better for
it. Also there's no background music (don't get me started on Doctor Who in this
respect)

--
Jo

[Robin Fairbairns]

K Richard Whitbread <richard....@tesco.net> writes:

> Jo Lonergan <jolon...@hotmail.com> wrote

>> There are references to a Norwegian series called Lilyhammer, which
>> the Beeb has bought, could it be that?
>
> That is on Mounttobewatched.

i don't understand people who watch the tv a lot, who also manage to
read a lot. being as i'm a slow reader, i get very little done even
though i hardly ever watch the tv.

you're all marvels (lusi naturae, as swift's [satire of] scientists put
it).

[Robin Fairbairns]

"Mike Ruddock" <michael...@mypostoffice.co.uk> writes:

> "Sebastian Lisken" <lis...@math.Uni-Bielefeld-deletethis.de> wrote in

> message news:ah04q2...@mid.dfncis.de...
>
> [minor snippage]
>
>> Oh, I should have seen that - thanks, Jo! Must stay away from the
>> German friends that have become fans of an obscure series called
>> "Gefährliche Seilschaften" (dangerous insider relationships), which
>> is both the German title for Borgen (did I say I find translating
>> stupid?)
>
> In that connection, Sebastian, you might find a book I have just read
> of some interest.
>
> It is called "Is That a Fish in Your Ear?" (1) it was written by
> David Bellos and published by Penguin. [snip snip]

thanks -- added to xmas list :-)

[Robin Fairbairns]

Jo Lonergan <jolon...@hotmail.com> writes:

> On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 11:14:06 +0000, Kate Brown <elv...@nospam.demon.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>>What I always notice is that the ambient sound is wrong. Where the
>>original will have a bit of background noise and different voices sound
>>as if they are different distances away from the camera, a dubbed track
>>is all in the same place, and usually too close to the mike.
>>
>>But the base argument is a well-worn one in operatic circles - to sing
>>in the original language, with all its nuance and integration of word
>>and music, or to sing in translation, which is more direct for an
>>audience and makes more sense if the singers are not fluent in the
>>original. What is indisputable is that translation makes it a different
>>work - maybe more suited to its audience, but different.

>
> A third variant, popular in Basel, is to sing in the original and have
> German surtitles, so that the audience can be completely disoriented
> by finding that what they're watching seems to have no relation to the
> words that are being sung :-(

surtitles are regularly used in opera houses; last i heard an opera sung
in italian at glyndebourne[*] -- don giovanni -- i could read the
surtitles but linda couldn't. fortunately she has some italian.

[*] in the "cheap" £100 seats, which we couldn't possibly afford now.
we've been once, since, funded by my sister ... britten: midsummer
night's dream ... as near "dream" as one can get, imo.

[Robin Fairbairns]

so her crimes were compounded by being a cross-dresser? never knew
that.

[K Richard Whitbread]

Robin Fairbairns <rf...@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote

>K Richard Whitbread <richard....@tesco.net> writes:
>
>> Jo Lonergan <jolon...@hotmail.com> wrote
>>> There are references to a Norwegian series called Lilyhammer, which
>>> the Beeb has bought, could it be that?
>>
>> That is on Mounttobewatched.
>
>i don't understand people who watch the tv a lot, who also manage to
>read a lot. being as i'm a slow reader, i get very little done even
>though i hardly ever watch the tv.
>
>you're all marvels (lusi naturae, as swift's [satire of] scientists put
>it).

Who said I ever read anything?
--
Kosmo Richard W
SNELLSS

[Kate Brown]

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012, Robin Fairbairns wrote

Don't forget the Touring company. They play at Glyndebourne before going
off on tour, at completely different prices.

[Dev]

In article <njk3b8pn91ksoevl3...@4ax.com>, Jo Lonergan

And I bet the people of Ambridge don't all have perfect, gleaming teeth!

--
Dev

Om Namah Shivaya | Om Tripuran-takaya namaha

[Sam Plusnet]

In article <52f41f706...@no.spam.invalid>, spam-
ad...@no.spam.invalid says...

> And I bet the people of Ambridge don't all have perfect, gleaming teeth!
>
>

Since I have never heard any mention within TA of a dentist, perhaps no-
one has any teeth.


--
Sam

[john ashby]

Except Joe.

john

[the Omrud]

Vicky is a dental nurse. She must have surely mentioned the dentist,
considering she never SHUTS UP.

--
David

[EllTee]

On Sunday, November 25, 2012 4:14:53 PM UTC, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> Since I have never heard any mention within TA of a dentist, perhaps no-
> one has any teeth.

Was not there a minor debacle when Walter Gabriels dentures were found
among the hymnals in St Stevens?

[Dev]

In article <MPG.2b1c545ad...@news.plus.net>,

Didn't (Doesn't?) Vicky (not our Vicky) work for a dentist?

--
Dev

Om Namah Shivaya | Om Srikantaya namaha

[Jo Lonergan]

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 10:28:31 +0000, Robin Fairbairns <rf...@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:

>K Richard Whitbread <richard....@tesco.net> writes:
>
>> Jo Lonergan <jolon...@hotmail.com> wrote
>>> There are references to a Norwegian series called Lilyhammer, which
>>> the Beeb has bought, could it be that?
>>
>> That is on Mounttobewatched.
>
>i don't understand people who watch the tv a lot, who also manage to
>read a lot. being as i'm a slow reader, i get very little done even
>though i hardly ever watch the tv.
>
>you're all marvels (lusi naturae, as swift's [satire of] scientists put
>it).

I used to be able to watch the tv and read, now I don't manage to take in
anything of either if I do it. Reading and brushing my teeth is about my limit
these days.

--
Jo

[Robin Fairbairns]

Kate Brown <elv...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:

> On Sun, 25 Nov 2012, Robin Fairbairns wrote
>

>>surtitles are regularly used in opera houses; last i heard an opera sung
>>in italian at glyndebourne[*] -- don giovanni -- i could read the
>>surtitles but linda couldn't. fortunately she has some italian.
>>
>>[*] in the "cheap" �100 seats, which we couldn't possibly afford now.
>>we've been once, since, funded by my sister ... britten: midsummer
>>night's dream ... as near "dream" as one can get, imo.
>
> Don't forget the Touring company. They play at Glyndebourne before
> going off on tour, at completely different prices.

well, yes, but they don't tour anywhere near cambridge (last i looked),
and with the cost of hiring a room for two for the night, it's not a lot
cheaper.

[Robin Fairbairns]

makes a change from book-worms.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <qfvccrn...@dev-rf10-linux.cl.cam.ac.uk>, Robin

Fairbairns <rf...@cl.cam.ac.uk> writes:
>EllTee <lcj...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Sunday, November 25, 2012 4:14:53 PM UTC, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>
>>> Since I have never heard any mention within TA of a dentist, perhaps no-
>>> one has any teeth.

[]
I've heard more than enough about Joe's dentures of late to last me a
long tome. (TWATBILI)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

An Englishman, even if he is alone, forms an orderly queue of one. (George Mikes
in "How to be an Alien".)

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <qfzk23n...@dev-rf10-linux.cl.cam.ac.uk>, Robin

Fairbairns <rf...@cl.cam.ac.uk> writes:
>Kate Brown <elv...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 25 Nov 2012, Robin Fairbairns wrote
>>
>>>surtitles are regularly used in opera houses; last i heard an opera sung
>>>in italian at glyndebourne[*] -- don giovanni -- i could read the
>>>surtitles but linda couldn't. fortunately she has some italian.
>>>
>>>[*] in the "cheap" £100 seats, which we couldn't possibly afford now.
>>>we've been once, since, funded by my sister ... britten: midsummer
>>>night's dream ... as near "dream" as one can get, imo.
>>
>> Don't forget the Touring company. They play at Glyndebourne before
>> going off on tour, at completely different prices.
>
>well, yes, but they don't tour anywhere near cambridge (last i looked),
>and with the cost of hiring a room for two for the night, it's not a lot
>cheaper.

Nor Oxford, according to my bro, any longer (they used to). MK the
nearest. Since his not-mother-in-law lives in Seaford, it's actually
easier for them to go to G. (I think they go for one of the official
performances, but apparently the touring company do also perform there,
cheaper, as well as on tour.)

[Robin Fairbairns]

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6...@soft255.demon.co.uk> writes:

> Robin Fairbairns <rf...@cl.cam.ac.uk> writes:
>>EllTee <lcj...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Sunday, November 25, 2012 4:14:53 PM UTC, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>>
>>>> Since I have never heard any mention within TA of a dentist, perhaps no-
>>>> one has any teeth.
>
> I've heard more than enough about Joe's dentures of late to last me a
> long tome. (TWATBILI)

(merry back link to the story about walter's dentures.)

[Fred]

>
> (merry back link to the story about walter's dentures.)
>
> --

It made oi larf that one. The SWs had the dentist provide Walter with a temporary set until his proper ones were made.
As a dentist, I've always wondered how that worked.
Fred

[Chris McMillan]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 20:31:03 -0000, Jo Lonergan <jolon...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

KRW reads on his hols we know. I've just joined a book group but we're
only going to meet four times a year for now so that those who find it
difficult to find time to read won't feel too pressurised keeping up with
those of us who have their noses in lots of books.

Sincerely Chris

--

http://www.chinavision.org.uk


Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[Jo Lonergan]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2012 22:09:24 -0000, "Chris McMillan"
<chris.m...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>KRW reads on his hols we know. I've just joined a book group but we're
>only going to meet four times a year for now so that those who find it
>difficult to find time to read won't feel too pressurised keeping up with
>those of us who have their noses in lots of books.
>

They'll still end up reading through the night before the meeting, or winging it
after reading the Amazon comments instead of the book.

--
Jo

[Chris McMillan]

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 16:40:47 -0000, john ashby <johna...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Well Vicky must have *some* patients, but maybe she works for a private
practice - or we'd have heard Joe visiting for his falsies surely.