naughty Octopus?

[Vicky]

https://octopus.energy/blog/smart-meters-save-money/

I wanted a smart meter for a few years before they were rolled out in
my area and then when they came houses with the gas meter cover we
have couldn't get them. And then Bulb made lots of mistakes with the
bill, in fact never got it right, and I no longer trusted smart
meters, and still couldn't have one anyway.

Now we're with Octopus they nag me with every log in to get one. I
don't know if I can now, as same gas meter cover, but I don't want
one. We were puzzled by the bills and then got £150 credit as they
said there'd been a mistaken one! And Octopus have the best customer
service record of any power co.

And today at login I saw this, which I think is new. As above. They
really do want people to get them but do you pay less with one?

I know you pay more with a pre-payment meter. I know they can turn
your power off anyway, smart or ordinary meter. But still..

[Serena Blanchflower]

There's no difference, on their standard tariff, between smart and dumb
meters. They do, however, have a few other tariffs which are only
available to people with smart meters. These are tariffs which vary the
charge at different times of day so that, if you are willing/able to
shift your usage away from peak hours, may work out a lot cheaper. I've
even heard, on one of them, of occasional slots when they will pay you
to use electricity.

--
Best wishes, Serena
This is life, this is my life, and no matter what I do I can't go back
to the way it used to be. It is about accepting the changes and rising
to the challenges.' (Doreen Lawrence)

[Vicky]

Ah. Thank you, Serena. I still don't know if we'd be able to get one
now because the gas meter cover has not changed. And I don't want to
poke the tiger by asking just for that information.

[Chris]

With a smart meter you see what you’re using. Stop fart arsing about and
get one.

Mrs McT

[Chris]

Serena Blanchflower <nos...@blanchflower.me.uk> wrote:
> On 15/09/2023 18:23, Vicky wrote:
>> https://octopus.energy/blog/smart-meters-save-money/
>>
>> I wanted a smart meter for a few years before they were rolled out in
>> my area and then when they came houses with the gas meter cover we
>> have couldn't get them. And then Bulb made lots of mistakes with the
>> bill, in fact never got it right, and I no longer trusted smart
>> meters, and still couldn't have one anyway.
>>
>> Now we're with Octopus they nag me with every log in to get one. I
>> don't know if I can now, as same gas meter cover, but I don't want
>> one. We were puzzled by the bills and then got £150 credit as they
>> said there'd been a mistaken one! And Octopus have the best customer
>> service record of any power co.
>>
>> And today at login I saw this, which I think is new. As above. They
>> really do want people to get them but do you pay less with one?
>>
>> I know you pay more with a pre-payment meter. I know they can turn
>> your power off anyway, smart or ordinary meter. But still..
>
> There's no difference, on their standard tariff, between smart and dumb
> meters. They do, however, have a few other tariffs which are only
> available to people with smart meters. These are tariffs which vary the
> charge at different times of day so that, if you are willing/able to
> shift your usage away from peak hours, may work out a lot cheaper. I've
> even heard, on one of them, of occasional slots when they will pay you
> to use electricity.
>

That’s us! Do it. And find out *exactly* why not this time. I’ve heard
of this refusal but not from an Octopus customer. It’s time this was made
known of millions of people will never be switched.

Mrs McT

[Chris]

Octopus *are* approachable. They are pro green energy so it’s in their
interest.

Mrs McT

[Vicky]

As I said initially, we probably can't get one. And my distrust in
the accounting practices of energy companies goes back many years,
over several companies, the first being British Gas in our first flat
in 1971, who tried to charge a very large amount for the 5 months we
were at sea, when no gas was used.

[Mike McMillan]

If you are able to use a smart meter fpr your electricity deman, you might
pay less by picking a time of use or an agile tariff and save - we
certainly do; by careful use of energy at the right times, savings can be
made.
--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

[Mike McMillan]

Serena Blanchflower <nos...@blanchflower.me.uk> wrote:
> On 15/09/2023 18:23, Vicky wrote:
>> https://octopus.energy/blog/smart-meters-save-money/
>>
>> I wanted a smart meter for a few years before they were rolled out in
>> my area and then when they came houses with the gas meter cover we
>> have couldn't get them. And then Bulb made lots of mistakes with the
>> bill, in fact never got it right, and I no longer trusted smart
>> meters, and still couldn't have one anyway.
>>
>> Now we're with Octopus they nag me with every log in to get one. I
>> don't know if I can now, as same gas meter cover, but I don't want
>> one. We were puzzled by the bills and then got £150 credit as they
>> said there'd been a mistaken one! And Octopus have the best customer
>> service record of any power co.
>>
>> And today at login I saw this, which I think is new. As above. They
>> really do want people to get them but do you pay less with one?
>>
>> I know you pay more with a pre-payment meter. I know they can turn
>> your power off anyway, smart or ordinary meter. But still..
>
> There's no difference, on their standard tariff, between smart and dumb
> meters. They do, however, have a few other tariffs which are only
> available to people with smart meters. These are tariffs which vary the
> charge at different times of day so that, if you are willing/able to
> shift your usage away from peak hours, may work out a lot cheaper. I've
> even heard, on one of them, of occasional slots when they will pay you
> to use electricity.
>

Yes, we have taken advantage and helped them out with their ‘excess’ energy
a number of times; we have been known to ‘consume’ 10-15 kW/h where we were
paid anything up to 15 p per kW/h to use it! They refer to it as ‘Plunge
Pricing’.

[Kate B]

I have a smart meter now, at last - the one that was here when I moved
in stopped working shortly afterwards, and it turned out I needed not
only a new in-house display but new meters for gas and electricity to
make it all talk to itself and OVO.

The London house, though, couldn't have them at all: the gas meter was
on one side of the house in the basement, and the electric was also in
the basement, diametrically opposed with three solid walls and the
staircase between them, and surrounded by earth and various bits of
concrete. There wasn't the remotest hope of them being able to talk to
each other, let alone communicate with the outside world!


--
Kate B

[Steve Hague]

On 15/09/2023 18:23, Vicky wrote:

I used to get regular emails from Ovo trying to persuade me that I
needed a smart meter. I had a look into the matter, and decided it would
be a good idea. I asked when they could they fit it and received an
email saying "This service is not available in your area"

[Sam Plusnet]

In the interests of balance...
I assume the corollary is also true.
i.e. If you need to consume energy at the 'wrong' times, you pay through
the nose for the privilege?

[Sam Plusnet]

On 17/09/2023 14:59, Penny wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 18:23:03 +0100, Vicky <vicky...@gmail.com> scrawled
> in the dust...

> I still don't understand what difference te sape of your box makes. Smart
> meters are tiny, compared to old analogue ones, surely there must be room
> for one? I wonder how much a new box would cost...

It's always possible that there was some entirely different reason why
the installers baulked.
"Wrong shaped box" sounds like a nice customer-friendly catch-all
excuse/reason.

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <lc49gipad2kld98ic...@4ax.com> at Fri, 15 Sep
2023 18:23:03, Vicky <vicky...@gmail.com> writes
[]

>I know you pay more with a pre-payment meter. I know they can turn
>your power off anyway, smart or ordinary meter. But still..

I fail to see _how_ they can turn your power off if you have an
old-fashioned measuring-only meter - remotely, anyway; obviously they
can turn you off if they visit your premises.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Everyone learns from science. It all depends how you use the knowledge. - "Gil
Grissom" (CSI).

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <SwmNM.43906$kx57....@fx08.ams1> at Sat, 16 Sep 2023
19:32:16, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> writes

>On 17/09/2023 14:59, Penny wrote:
>> On Fri, 15 Sep 2023 18:23:03 +0100, Vicky <vicky...@gmail.com> scrawled
>> in the dust...
>>
>>> https://octopus.energy/blog/smart-meters-save-money/
>>>
>>> I wanted a smart meter for a few years before they were rolled out in
>>> my area and then when they came houses with the gas meter cover we
>>> have couldn't get them. And then Bulb made lots of mistakes with the

[]

>> I still don't understand what difference te sape of your box makes.
>>Smart
>> meters are tiny, compared to old analogue ones, surely there must be room
>> for one? I wonder how much a new box would cost...
>
>It's always possible that there was some entirely different reason why
>the installers baulked.
>"Wrong shaped box" sounds like a nice customer-friendly catch-all
>excuse/reason.

I suspect it's where the meter(s) is/are more than X feet below the
ground surface (because from there they couldn't contact either each
other, the mobile network, or both), and describing the type of cover is
an easy way to determine, rather than having the customers measuring the
depth (and getting it wrong) - presumably all the meters of a certain
depth in a given area have the same cover (or enough of them for it to
be a reasonable ruse).

[Chris]

Yes indeedy. It probably isn’t ideal if you’re only home at a narrow
number of hours daily with no chance to study the daily pricing structure
as McT does, but would help anyone doing 24 hr shifts for example.

Mrs McT

[Philip Hole]

>> I still don't understand what difference te sape of your box makes. Smart
>> meters are tiny, compared to old analogue ones, surely there must be room
>> for one? I wonder how much a new box would cost...
>

https://www.bes.co.uk/catalogsearch/result/?q=gas+meter+box

BUT...
Some of the boxes fit onto existing backplates

The backplate must be purchased separately

BES dont sell the backplate

Some boxes come with keys

the keys are redundant

if you can just lift off the cover.

But the best of luck.
--
Flop

[Mike McMillan]

The main thing is to avoid ‘peak demand’ time which 16:00 to about 18:30,
as it would appear the world and his/her husband/wife are consuming gulps
of energy in the kitchen preparing their Vesta curries etc. Normally,
outside of this period, the rates are lower and the early hours of the
mornings (approx. 01;00 - 06:00 are the cheapest most days) are often the
cheapest. I do like it when they have plunge pricing - not that frequent
but worth knowing about; the rates can go negative whereby they pay the
consumer to use power!

[Mike McMillan]

Our gas meter was situated on an outside wall and the ‘box’ was made using
glass fibre so presumably no obstacle to those little radio waves allowing
them to escape and find their target somewhere. The electricity meter is
inside the house so I imagine the data signal is sent via the DNO’s
facilities - but I’m not sure.

[Mike McMillan]

Just checked the Agile rates from OE for the tomorrow: The time to avoid
most is 18:30 - 19:00 tomorrow when the rate is 37.65 p. Per kW/h. The
cheapest time is 14:30-15:00 when it will be 5.6 p.per kW/h. If my solar PV
is low due to our lovely weather during the day, the battery may be
charging part of the day…

[Vicky]

I don't think our gas meter is like any shown. The electric one is in
the porch but the gas one is out front under the living room window.
That's apparently the one causes the problem and can't have a smart
meter. It's most like this but not upright. it is flat on the ground.

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <ue732j$dlqo$1...@dont-email.me> at Sun, 17 Sep 2023 14:39:15,
Mike McMillan <toodl...@virginmedia.com> writes
[]

>Our gas meter was situated on an outside wall and the ‘box’ was made using
>glass fibre so presumably no obstacle to those little radio waves allowing
>them to escape and find their target somewhere. The electricity meter is
>inside the house so I imagine the data signal is sent via the DNO’s
>facilities - but I’m not sure.
>

My understanding is that the data signal is sent from the electricity
meter over the mobile network (not sure which one - maybe any it can get
a signal to?), and it sends both lots of data; the gas meter only talks
to the electric meter, not the network, and has no electric power of its
own, so has to do so from a battery, which I think is supposed to last
about 10 years. (Among other things, that's why the gas readout on the
little display is only updated - because the meter only communicates - a
lot less often [half hourly?] than the electric.)

Thinking about it, one household I manage might be due for a battery
replacement - I can't remember when it got a smart (though type 1)
meter, but quite a few years.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

[What's your guilty pleasure?] Why should you feel guilty about pleasure? -
Michel Roux Jr in Radio Times 2-8 February 2013

[Joe Kerr]

On 17/09/2023 19:57, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <ue732j$dlqo$1...@dont-email.me> at Sun, 17 Sep 2023 14:39:15,
> Mike McMillan <toodl...@virginmedia.com> writes
> []
>> Our gas meter was situated on an outside wall and the ‘box’ was made
>> using
>> glass fibre so presumably no obstacle to those little radio waves
>> allowing
>> them to escape and find their target somewhere. The electricity meter is
>> inside the house so I imagine the data signal is sent via the DNO’s
>> facilities - but I’m not sure.
>>
> My understanding is that the data signal is sent from the electricity
> meter over the mobile network (not sure which one - maybe any it can get
> a signal to?), and it sends both lots of data; the gas meter only talks
> to the electric meter, not the network, and has no electric power of its
> own, so has to do so from a battery, which I think is supposed to last
> about 10 years. (Among other things, that's why the gas readout on the
> little display is only updated - because the meter only communicates - a
> lot less often [half hourly?] than the electric.)
>
> Thinking about it, one household I manage might be due for a battery
> replacement - I can't remember when it got a smart (though type 1)
> meter, but quite a few years.

My understanding (which could be wrong) is that the batteries are not
replaceable, so it is new (refurbished?) meter. All in the interests of
the environment of course.

--
Ric

[Mike McMillan]

Thought somerRats might care to know that OE are willing to pay 3.93 pence
for every kW/h consumed between 00:30 and 01:00 tomorrow - there are a few
other times when plunge pricing applies tomorrow….

[Mike McMillan]

I should hasten to add that this is only applicable to thoseRats who are on
the Agile Tariff with Octopus Energy - guess who’s battery will be filling
up?

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <ue9rt5$1r5j2$1...@dont-email.me> at Mon, 18 Sep 2023 15:55:17,
Mike McMillan <toodl...@virginmedia.com> writes
>Mike McMillan <toodl...@virginmedia.com> wrote:
[]

>> Thought somerRats might care to know that OE are willing to pay 3.93 pence
>> for every kW/h consumed between 00:30 and 01:00 tomorrow - there are a few
>> other times when plunge pricing applies tomorrow….
>>
>>
>
>I should hasten to add that this is only applicable to thoseRats who are on
>the Agile Tariff with Octopus Energy - guess who’s battery will be filling
>up?
>

Presumably this "plunge pricing" is because it's not economic to power
down some generating facilities for just half an hour (and no point in
doing so for wind ones if there is wind), and the country as a whole has
woefully inadequate storage capacity (basically, Dinorwic, the similar
one in Scotland, and some tiny batteries). We need to be building more
such capacity (if only to shut up the anti-wind and anti-solar wailers).

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

aibohphobia, n., The fear of palindromes.

[Sam Plusnet]

I'm sure the battery _can_ be replaced - once the meter has been taken
back to... wherever they do work on smart meters.
The meter will then be put back into service somewhere else.
The meter may be recalibrated at the same time.

[Nick Odell]

On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 6:07:04 PM UTC+1, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <ue9rt5$1r5j2$1...@dont-email.me> at Mon, 18 Sep 2023 15:55:17,
> Mike McMillan <toodl...@virginmedia.com> writes
> >Mike McMillan <toodl...@virginmedia.com> wrote:
> []
> >> Thought somerRats might care to know that OE are willing to pay 3.93 pence
> >> for every kW/h consumed between 00:30 and 01:00 tomorrow - there are a few
> >> other times when plunge pricing applies tomorrow….
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I should hasten to add that this is only applicable to thoseRats who are on
> >the Agile Tariff with Octopus Energy - guess who’s battery will be filling
> >up?
> >
> Presumably this "plunge pricing" is because it's not economic to power
> down some generating facilities for just half an hour (and no point in
> doing so for wind ones if there is wind), and the country as a whole has
> woefully inadequate storage capacity (basically, Dinorwic, the similar
> one in Scotland, and some tiny batteries). We need to be building more
> such capacity (if only to shut up the anti-wind and anti-solar wailers).

Whatever happened to the plan to connect electric cars to the grid
whenever they are not in use? The idea was that when the electricity
is cheap the cars would be topped up and whenever electricity is in
high demand the cars would discharge their batteries into the grid.

Nick
nicko...@yahoo.ca

[J. P. Gilliver]

In message <50c2966d-3300-406c...@googlegroups.com> at
Mon, 18 Sep 2023 15:57:04, Nick Odell <nick...@bigfoot.com> writes
[]

>Whatever happened to the plan to connect electric cars to the grid
>whenever they are not in use? The idea was that when the electricity
>is cheap the cars would be topped up and whenever electricity is in
>high demand the cars would discharge their batteries into the grid.

[]
Relies on the car owners being willing. Since the main reluctance to
switch to electric cars is "range anxiety", the idea of losing even more
of your range - especially without knowing when it's going to be taken!
- isn't attractive. If there was even a _hint_ of making it compulsory,
they'd kill the electric car market overnight.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Intelligence isn't complete without the full picture and the full picture is
all about doubt. Otherwise, you go the way of George Bush. - baroness Eliza
Manningham-Buller (former head of MI5), Radio Times 3-9 September 2011.

[Jim Easterbrook]

On Tue, 19 Sep 2023 02:12:37 +0100, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

> In message <50c2966d-3300-406c...@googlegroups.com> at
> Mon, 18 Sep 2023 15:57:04, Nick Odell <nick...@bigfoot.com> writes []
>>Whatever happened to the plan to connect electric cars to the grid
>>whenever they are not in use? The idea was that when the electricity is
>>cheap the cars would be topped up and whenever electricity is in high
>>demand the cars would discharge their batteries into the grid.
> []
> Relies on the car owners being willing. Since the main reluctance to
> switch to electric cars is "range anxiety", the idea of losing even more
> of your range - especially without knowing when it's going to be taken!
> - isn't attractive. If there was even a _hint_ of making it compulsory,
> they'd kill the electric car market overnight.

Easily dealt with by setting a time by which the car must be fully
charged, e.g. 7:30 am, allowing it to charge / discharge as needed as long
as it's in a charged state by the prescribed time.

Technology to build "demand management" into devices like fridges,
freezers, aircon, and space heating has existed for decades, but it was
never mandatory and has no direct consumer benefit so it didn't happen.
Instead we have a capitalists' wet dream of price changes by the minute
with people expected to monitor prices and switch stuff on and off
accordingly.

--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L- I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0

[Mike McMillan]

There are API’s being employed to make the most of tariffs, I’d like to see
one for the Tesla Powerwall again; there was one of sorts: Tesla Energy
Plan was its’ name and was ‘sold’ on the basis of consumption and export
were the same price but, I think the other part of the service would have
been the access to stored energy in the battery being available when the
grid needed it most. I think there are some schemes in the states where
such resources are available to the DNO’s (but they have a different name
for them).

[Vicky]

On Mon, 18 Sep 2023 15:57:04 -0700 (PDT), Nick Odell
<nick...@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 6:07:04?PM UTC+1, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> In message <ue9rt5$1r5j2$1...@dont-email.me> at Mon, 18 Sep 2023 15:55:17,
>> Mike McMillan <toodl...@virginmedia.com> writes
>> >Mike McMillan <toodl...@virginmedia.com> wrote:
>> []
>
>

>Whatever happened to the plan to connect electric cars to the grid
>whenever they are not in use? The idea was that when the electricity
>is cheap the cars would be topped up and whenever electricity is in
>high demand the cars would discharge their batteries into the grid.
>
>Nick
>nicko...@yahoo.ca

So much of the time electric car owners would be unable to suddenly
get in the car and go somewhere? It takes around 12 hours to charge
ours,only just under half left, and we've got a bigger battery. You
can charge faster (10 mins) at the nearby BP outlet at the pub but
what if it's in use? And we'd have to have enough battery to get
there. Also all electric car batteries together would run the grid for
10 seconds apparently.

[Mike McMillan]

It’s all about ironing out the peaks, ‘borrowing’ power from storage for a
short period of time could make a world of difference to demand during peak
demand and it is easier to extract that energy demand from storage (if
available of course!) than to crank up another generation plant that uses
coal. Hydroelectric plants can spin up in minutes but still not as quick as
connecting to battery supplies.

[Sam Plusnet]

On 18/09/2023 23:57, Nick Odell wrote:

>
> Whatever happened to the plan to connect electric cars to the grid
> whenever they are not in use? The idea was that when the electricity
> is cheap the cars would be topped up and whenever electricity is in
> high demand the cars would discharge their batteries into the grid.

Ignorance speaks:

Wouldn't such a scheme have an impact on the lifespan of all those car
batteries? If they are being used to 'top up' the grid on a
'regular'[1] basis, would they not age must faster than they otherwise
would?
A car with aged batteries wouldn't have a high resale value.

[1] OK, not "regular", perhaps "frequent" is a better term.

[BrritSki]

On 16/09/2023 09:22, Vicky wrote:

> On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 07:41:01 -0000 (UTC), Chris
> <chris.m...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> Vicky <vicky...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> https://octopus.energy/blog/smart-meters-save-money/
>>>
>>> I wanted a smart meter for a few years before they were rolled out in
>>> my area and then when they came houses with the gas meter cover we
>>> have couldn't get them. And then Bulb made lots of mistakes with the
>>> bill, in fact never got it right, and I no longer trusted smart
>>> meters, and still couldn't have one anyway.
>>>
>>> Now we're with Octopus they nag me with every log in to get one. I
>>> don't know if I can now, as same gas meter cover, but I don't want
>>> one. We were puzzled by the bills and then got £150 credit as they
>>> said there'd been a mistaken one! And Octopus have the best customer
>>> service record of any power co.
>>>
>>> And today at login I saw this, which I think is new. As above. They
>>> really do want people to get them but do you pay less with one?
>>>
>>> I know you pay more with a pre-payment meter. I know they can turn
>>> your power off anyway, smart or ordinary meter. But still..
>>>
>>

>> With a smart meter you see what you’re using. Stop fart arsing about and
>> get one.
>>
>> Mrs McT
>
> As I said initially, we probably can't get one. And my distrust in
> the accounting practices of energy companies goes back many years...


I think you're wise. Octopus are currently a good company, but that
could change. I do not discount the possibility that our power could be
cut off remotely via the smart meter. Especially when you see the OTT
reaction to the very slight row back from Sunak on Net Zero.


It's very funny that the more we install "cheap" renewables the more
expensive our power becomes. :/

[Kate B]

Cheap for the owners of the power source, perhaps. But since *we* are
apparently paying globally set prices for electricity and gas, it makes
no difference to the ordinary person. I scream at the rayjo every time
some pompous eejit says 'we need to exploit all our own gas and coal, it
will be so much cheaper'. It isn't now, why should it be in future
years? I think Tim Harford dealt with this a few weeks ago.

--
Kate B