Place names not pronounced as they are spelt. Any more?
Martin Clark
umra this week, I thought it would be a good idea to collect together a
list of English place names that are not pronounced the same way that
they are spelt. For now I am not including names in Scotland or Wales as
that creates the difficulty of whether the names are gaelic or welsh in
origin and pronunciation.
Below I am posting the entire list I have so far, many of which are the
results of postings in the last day or two by umrats, for which many
thanks. Also including are some obvious ones which should nevertheless
be included if it is to be a thorough list. I intend to publish the
final list on the wen along with the umra worst hits chart!
I would be grateful for further suggestions along with clues as to how
the place names are usually pronounced. Also for any comments or
criticisms of things on the list so far.
Many endings of names with -ham, -ford and -ton are pronounced -um, -fud
and -tun and are not included in this list.
Alcester, Worcestershire - olster
Alnwick, Northumberland - annick
Bamburgh, Northumberland - bambruh
Beauchief, Derbyshire - beechiff
Beaulieu, Hampshire - boeley
Belvoir, Leicestershire - beever
Berkeley, Gloucestershire - barkley
Bicester, Oxfordshire - bister
Blackley, Manchester - blaykley
Blythburgh, Suffolk - blythbruh
Boarhunt, Hampshire - borrunt or burrunt
Bradley, West Midlands - braydley
Brewood, Staffordshire - brood
Caldmore, West Midlands - carma
Chester-le-Street, Durham - chessley street
Cholmondesley, - chumley
Cirencester, Gloucestershire - sisiter or sister
Coleshill, Warwickshire - coezill
Costessey, Norfolk - cossey
Dibden Purlieu, Hampshire - dibdun purloo
Elham, Kent - eelum
Ellough, Suffolk - eeloe
Evesham, Worcestershire - aysham
Frome, Somerset - froom
Furneaux Pelham, Hertfordshire - furnux pellum
Gloucester - gloster
Greenhill, South Yorkshire - grennel
Greenwich, london - grennitch
Groton, Suffolk - groetun
Grundisburgh, Suffolk - grunsbruh
Happisburgh, Norfolk - haysbruh
Hednesford, Staffordshire - hedgefud
Hertford - hartfud
Hetton-le-Hole, Durham - hettunley hole
Houghton-le-Spring, Durham - hoetunley spring
Ightham - item
Kegworth - kegguth
Keswick, Cumbria - kezick
Keynsham, Bristol - kaneshum
Kingston Bagpuize, Oxfordshire - kingstun bagpews
Kirkby, Merseyside - kirby
Launceston, Cornwall - lawnsun or lansun
Leicester - lester
Leighton Buzzard, Bedfordshire - layton buzzard
Leominster, Herefordshire - lemster
Lofthouse, West Yorkshire - loftus
Maidstone, Kent - maitstun
Meopham, Kent - meppum
Mossley, Lancashire - mozley
Mousehole, Cornwall - mowzle
Norwich - norridge
Oswaldtwistle, Lancashire - ozle twizle
Pontefract, West Yorkshire - pumfret
Reading, Berkshire - redding
Scarisbrick, Lancashire - scayrsbruh
Slaithwaite, West Yorkshire - slawit
Slaugham, Sussex - slaffem or sluffum or sloom
Slough, Berkshire - slaow (rhyming with cow)
Southwark, London - suthuck
Stiffkey, Norfolk - stewkey
Towcester, Northamptonshire - toaster
Trottiscliffe, Kent - trossley
Uttoxeter, Staffordshire - utchetter
Warwick - worrick
Wednesbury, West Midlands - wedgebury
Windsor, Berkshire - winzur
Wisbech, Cambridgeshire - wizbeech
Worcester - wooster
Wrotham, Kent - rootem
Wymondham, Norfolk - wimdum
Wyrley, Staffordshire - wurley
--
Martin
Portia
"Martin Clark" <mar...@spl.at> wrote in message
news:EL3QXad6...@auluk.freeserve.co.uk...
Some local ones for me:
Erith, Kent - earith
Trottiscliffe, Kent - trosley
Mereworth, Kent - merryworth
And some others from where I used to live:
Coleorton, Leics - cullorton
Whitwick, Leics - wittick
Groby, Leicester - grooby
And let's not forget:
Loughborough - luffbru
Is Kegworth really keggorth? I'm sure I heard locals pronouncing the W when
I lived up there.
Portia
---
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Troy
> Cirencester, Gloucestershire - sisiter or sister
I lived 10 miles from "Cirencester" - from birth until age 20 (a long time
ago). Always pronounced it "Cirencester" - have things changed?
--
Woof Woof !!
Love from Troy.
tr...@troytheblacklab.co.uk
4 legs good - 2 legs bad :-)
Portia
Wasn't paying attention. Sorry.
Martin Clark
about...
>On Sat, 14 Dec 2002 21:56:10 +0000, Martin Clark wrote:
>
>> Cirencester, Gloucestershire - sisiter or sister
>
>I lived 10 miles from "Cirencester" - from birth until age 20 (a long time
>ago). Always pronounced it "Cirencester" - have things changed?
One of those was suggested earlier by Anne. I have seen references to
both pronunciations on websites, and also to its being pronounced the
more usual "syren sester". Perhaps all three possibilities should be
included.
--
Martin
Kim Andrews
wrote:
>Many endings of names with -ham, -ford and -ton are pronounced -um, -fud
>and -tun and are not included in this list.
>
>Alcester, Worcestershire - olster
>Alnwick, Northumberland - annick
>Bamburgh, Northumberland - bambruh
Shouldn't the "burghs" be treated like the "fords" et al? If not,
please add Aldeburgh - Awldbruh.
>Beauchief, Derbyshire - beechiff
>Beaulieu, Hampshire - boeley
- Bewley, shirley?
--
Cheers, Kimbo
Best of umra archive www.totternhoe.demon.co.uk/umra/
"May 6,000 strabismic telephone operators prance in your genitals.
oo-er, wrong newsgroup." Charles F Hankel -- Hapless FAQer on the Wirral peninsula. RIP.
Martin Clark
about...
>
>Some local ones for me:
>
>Erith, Kent - earith
>Trottiscliffe, Kent - trosley
>Mereworth, Kent - merryworth
>
>And some others from where I used to live:
>
>Coleorton, Leics - cullorton
>Whitwick, Leics - wittick
>Groby, Leicester - grooby
>
>And let's not forget:
>Loughborough - luffbru
>
>Is Kegworth really keggorth? I'm sure I heard locals pronouncing the W when
>I lived up there.
>
It was suggested earlier by someone that kegguth was the traditional
pronunciation until an air crash there. The resultant media coverage
with the pronunciation as it is spelt seemed to bury the traditional
way.
If any of the suggestions listed are considered contentious I am happy
to omit them or to offer alternative pronunciations.
--
Martin
Martin Clark
about...
>On Sat, 14 Dec 2002 21:56:10 +0000, Martin Clark <mar...@spl.at>
>wrote:
>
>>Many endings of names with -ham, -ford and -ton are pronounced -um, -fud
>>and -tun and are not included in this list.
>>
>>Alcester, Worcestershire - olster
>>Alnwick, Northumberland - annick
>>Bamburgh, Northumberland - bambruh
>
>Shouldn't the "burghs" be treated like the "fords" et al? If not,
>please add Aldeburgh - Awldbruh.
>
i.e. are there any places ending in -burgh where it is not pronounced
"-bruh"?
>>Beauchief, Derbyshire - beechiff
>>Beaulieu, Hampshire - boeley
>
>- Bewley, shirley?
>
Ooops! Yes, I spelt it like that myself in an earlier post, I think.
I blame this beer.
--
Martin
Fenny
I heard Martin Clark say...
> Beauchief, Derbyshire - beechiff
>
Long, long ago, this may have been classed as Derbyshire, being on the
south side of the river Sheaf, but it is very definitely part of
Sheffield and is no further over the border than Greenhill is.
ICBA to find the box of pictures that has my old map of the West Riding
in it, but you can't say Beauchief is in Derbyshire if you class
Greenhill as South Yorkshire. South Yorkshire is a moddun invention,
and postdates the movement of the Sheffield borders past Beauchief.
--
Fenny
It's better to be alone than in the wrong company
Andrew Bull
Penny
<cosmic...@DESPAMPLEASEhotmail.com> wrote...
>Some local ones for me:
>
>Erith, Kent - earith
>Trottiscliffe, Kent - trosley
>Mereworth, Kent - merryworth
Coo, another Kentish umrat (yes, I know, I wasn't born here either) welcome
to umra, Portia.
--
Penny
Laughter is the dance of the spirit and the music of the soul.
umra Nicknames & Abbreviations http://www.bigwig.net/umra/nicks.html
Menelaus
Huyton - High tun
Aigburth - Egg-birth
Brewood (Staffs) - Brood
Hertfordshire - Harfudshire
Bishop's Stortford - Big Hips
Saffron Waldon - Naff Saff
Oo, no, forget those last two - they're just nick-names!!
Martin Clark
about...
>London - lundon ?
>
Good point. So well known that it has been overlooked so far.
Or more pedantically - "lundun"!
--
Martin
Martin Clark
about...
>Previously on Buffy the Vampire Slayer ^W^W^W^W uk.media.radio.archers,
>I heard Martin Clark say...
>> Beauchief, Derbyshire - beechiff
>>
>Long, long ago, this may have been classed as Derbyshire, being on the
>south side of the river Sheaf, but it is very definitely part of
>Sheffield and is no further over the border than Greenhill is.
>
"Beauchief, Derbyshire" but I expect they are based on pre-1974
boundaries. I bow to your local knowledge and amend the list
accordingly.
--
Martin
Martin Clark
about...
>Gnosall - Know-sall
How could I have forgotten that from recent posts!
>Brewood (Staffs) - Brood
Already there.
>Hertfordshire - Harfudshire
Hertford is on the list. I wasn't thinking of including counties.
>Bishop's Stortford - Big Hips
>Saffron Waldon - Naff Saff
>
>Oo, no, forget those last two - they're just nick-names!!
>
Thank goodness for that!
--
Martin
GM6TRS
> Worcester - wooster
<snip>
> Martin
>
Great project Martin! As a former resident, I feel that maybe
'Wooster' should be 'Wuster'. My all-time favourite is Congresbury -
coomsbree.
(another) martin
Keith Anderson
9E...@auluk.freeserve.co.uk:
...
When I was, ahem, younger, my father told me the story of a stranger who
came into Aberdeen bus station, not sure which bus to take. The man in the
office said he'd be wanting the Foggieloan bus. After an hour, the stranger
asked a man at the stance when the Foggieloan bus would arrive. The man
pointed to it, and sure enough there it was, Foggieloan, spelt Aberchirder.
--
Keith Anderson
Jamie Armstrong
Martin Clark wrote:
> Since this topic that I have always found fascinating has cropped up in
> umra this week, I thought it would be a good idea to collect together a
> list of English place names that are not pronounced the same way that
> they are spelt. For now I am not including names in Scotland or Wales as
> that creates the difficulty of whether the names are gaelic or welsh in
> origin and pronunciation.
>
> Below I am posting the entire list I have so far, many of which are the
> results of postings in the last day or two by umrats, for which many
> thanks. Also including are some obvious ones which should nevertheless
> be included if it is to be a thorough list. I intend to publish the
> final list on the wen along with the umra worst hits chart!
>
> I would be grateful for further suggestions along with clues as to how
> the place names are usually pronounced. Also for any comments or
> criticisms of things on the list so far.
>
> Many endings of names with -ham, -ford and -ton are pronounced -um, -fud
> and -tun and are not included in this list.
>
> Chester-le-Street, Durham - chessley street
Not the one *I've* lived in all my life!
'cept whenI'm a tad inebriated, of course.
Try "Chestaleestreet" (there's no gap)
There's also
Alnmouth, Northumberland - Alnmuth
Boulmer, Northumberland - Boomer
Brougham, Cumbria - Broom.
Prudhoe, Northumberland - Prudah (was amazed to see this one omitted!)
Stanhope, Durham, - Stanup
to name but a few.
Jamie
Martin Clark
about...
>Great project Martin!
Thanks, Martin! Strangely there doesn't seem to be a website on the
internet yet with such a list, apart from for some individual counties.
>As a former resident, I feel that maybe
>'Wooster' should be 'Wuster'.
I am only attempting approximate pronunciations. I don't really want to
make it too complicated by having proper phonetic symbols. Antway - I
am sure you would not intend it to sound the way a Londoner would say
"Wuster"!
>My all-time favourite is Congresbury -
>coomsbree.
>
How could I have forgotten that one? I have been through quite a few
times.
--
Martin
Martin Clark
something about...
>Martin Clark wrote:
>> Chester-le-Street, Durham - chessley street
>
>Not the one *I've* lived in all my life!
>'cept whenI'm a tad inebriated, of course.
>
>Try "Chestaleestreet" (there's no gap)
>
Okay.
>There's also
>
>Alnmouth, Northumberland - Alnmuth
>Boulmer, Northumberland - Boomer
>Brougham, Cumbria - Broom.
>Prudhoe, Northumberland - Prudah (was amazed to see this one omitted!)
Gosh! Yes!
>Stanhope, Durham, - Stanup
>
>to name but a few.
>
>Jamie
>
Thanks.
--
Martin
Jezza
<EL3QXad6...@auluk.freeserve.co.uk>, Martin Clark <mar...@spl.at>
uttered the following:
Bristol - brissul or brizzul depending on whether you're Shire or Bemmie
Bedminster - be'minster
Haverfordwest - ha'rfordwest
Frome - vroom
Almondsbury - armsbree
Westbury - wesbree
Lawrence Weston - laurence vesson
Bath - barf
kingswood - kings'ud
Westerleigh - wes'lee
Frenchay - vrenchee
Portishead - pors'head
--
Jezza, Hotwells, Bristol
<http://www.hotwells.freeserve.co.uk/Hotwell.html>
Stephen
<cosmic...@DESPAMPLEASEhotmail.com> cry in a loud voice:
>And let's not forget:
>Loughborough - luffbru
I had always though that this place, although spelt as if it were
pronounced "Low brow" was in fact pronounced "Loo brush."
--
Stephen
It's amazing how much kids can learn about chemistry the old-fashioned way.
As soon as you get home from work, demand that they mix you an Old-Fashioned.
Anne Coulon
Not by *this* Anne:-) I was about to say, I've lived near there too and
was sure it was pronounced "Syrensester". Glad to find no egg-whites
necessary at the mo, as it's mince-pie making day in this house:-)
By the way, I think you may have forgotten:
Suburbiton, Surrey - "The Good Life". ;-p
All the best,
Anne, Gumrat.
Jane Vernon
<tr...@troytheblacklab.co.uk> writes
>On Sat, 14 Dec 2002 21:56:10 +0000, Martin Clark wrote:
>
>> Cirencester, Gloucestershire - sisiter or sister
>
>I lived 10 miles from "Cirencester" - from birth until age 20 (a long time
>ago). Always pronounced it "Cirencester" - have things changed?
I don't think so. I've lived about 10 miles from Cirencester for the
last 25 years and some of my family have lived in Gloucestershire for
more than 50 years and none of us has ever heard of it being pronounced
this way.
--
Jane
The potter in the purple socks
http://www.clothandclay.co.uk
http://www.clothandclay.co.uk/umra/cookbook/contents.htm
Menelaus
Shrewsbury - Shrews bry if local
Shrows bry if educated!!
<ducks quickly>
Hugo Nebula
<mar...@spl.at> wrote on Sat, 14 Dec 2002 21:56:10 +0000:
>I would be grateful for further suggestions along with clues as to how
>the place names are usually pronounced. Also for any comments or
>criticisms of things on the list so far.
>Keynsham, Bristol - kaneshum
I work in Keynsham, and AFAIR it's pronounced how it's spelt (subject
to the local accent).
Skelmersdale, Lancs - Skemersdale or Skem.
--
Hugo Nebula
"You know, I'd rather see this on TV,
Tones it down" - Laurie Anderson
George Middleton
>I would be grateful for further suggestions along with clues as to how
>the place names are usually pronounced.
Groby, Leicestershire Grooby
Roose, Barrow-in-Furness Rooz
Thryburgh , South Yorks Thryba (rhymes with Khyber)
Wombwell, South Yorks Wumwell
If you want to be posh, use the southern "u"
If you want to be laughed at say womb as in uterus.
Conisbrough, South Yorks Cunisbrough
I swear that the locals really say Königsburg.
--
George
George Middleton
>>And let's not forget:
>>Loughborough - luffbru
>
>I had always though that this place, although spelt as if it were
>pronounced "Low brow" was in fact pronounced "Loo brush."
No, it is pronounced exactly as it's spelt.
--
George
Kim Andrews
wrote:
>I may be imagining things, but I thought Andrew Bull muttered something
Or even more... Lundn?
Kim Andrews
<sp...@spamspamspamspamspameggsandspam.com> wrote:
>Hertfordshire - Harfudshire
Since when? I was born there and pronounce a definite T.
And ford becoming fud is already covered, so there's no reason to
list Hertford separately, is there Martin?
Kim Andrews
wrote:
>Oswaldtwistle, Lancashire - ozle twizle
>Pontefract, West Yorkshire - pumfret
>Reading, Berkshire - redding
We're looking a bit low on pees, if you'll pardon the expression, so
I'll offer:
Princes Risborough - Princes Rizbruh.
Martin Clark
about...
>From the chaotic regions of the Cryptosphere, Martin Clark
><mar...@spl.at> wrote on Sat, 14 Dec 2002 21:56:10 +0000:
>
>>Keynsham, Bristol - kaneshum
>I work in Keynsham, and AFAIR it's pronounced how it's spelt (subject
>to the local accent).
>
"kaneshum" and never "keenshum", unless the pronunciation has changed in
recent years
Oh dear. I have a feeling that there are some place names that will
never be agrees upon.
--
Martin
Kim Andrews
Lowjborowj!? ;o)
Martin Clark
about...
>On Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:26:47 -0000, "Menelaus"
><sp...@spamspamspamspamspameggsandspam.com> wrote:
>
>>Hertfordshire - Harfudshire
>
>Since when? I was born there and pronounce a definite T.
>
>And ford becoming fud is already covered, so there's no reason to
>list Hertford separately, is there Martin?
Yes, because it looks as if it might be pronounced "hurt fud". It was
the pronunciation of the first syllabub that I was focusing on.
--
Martin
Michael Parry
Boothroyd <da...@election.demon.co.uk> writes
>Marylebone in London is correctly, if rarely, pronounced 'Marr-libone'.
>
How else is it pronounced? I hear the usual pronunciation as
Marr-libone or just possibly Marrli-bone.
--
Michael Parry mic...@cavrdg.demon.co.uk
UK Aromatherapy Information and Products: http://www.celtic-flame.co.uk
Tim Hall
wrote:
<place names>
And an anti vote:
Theydon Bois
Tim
--
fast and gripping, non pompous, glossy and credible.
Jenny M Benson
<mar...@spl.at> writes
>It was suggested earlier by someone that kegguth was the traditional
>pronunciation until an air crash there. The resultant media coverage
>with the pronunciation as it is spelt seemed to bury the traditional way.
Shirley, it all rather depends on whether you are looking for "correct"
pronunciations (who's to say what's "correct"?) or where standard
English has one pronunciation and "local accent" has another.
In Cumbria there are loads of places who's names end in "-thwaite" and
I'm sure no one would deny that "Sea-thwaite", for example(1) is the
"correct" pronunciation and as it is written, but you'd be hard pressed
to find a local who didn't say "th't".(2)
Similarly, there is Roanhead, which is Ronnud to anyone living round
there, but doubtless Road-head everywhere else.
(1) As I was casting round my mind for examples, the 2nd and 3rd which I
happened upon were Haverthwaite and Waberthwaite. As the first 2
syllables of those are pronounced Havver and Wobber, rather than Hay-ver
and Way-ber, I thought they were rather confusing examples!
(2) There is, of course, Thwaites, which is pronounced by locals
"Thwaites."
--
Jenny
Jenny M Benson
<stephe...@yahoo.com> writes
>>Loughborough - luffbru
>
>I had always though that this place, although spelt as if it were
>pronounced "Low brow" was in fact pronounced "Loo brush."
Known to me and a few other people as Loogabarooga.
--
Jenny
Jane Vernon
<mic...@cavrdg.demon.co.uk> writes
>In message <david-15120...@election.demon.co.uk>, David
>Boothroyd <da...@election.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>>Marylebone in London is correctly, if rarely, pronounced 'Marr-libone'.
>>
>How else is it pronounced? I hear the usual pronunciation as
>Marr-libone or just possibly Marrli-bone.
>
Andrew John Wineberg
<tim...@diespamnmer.clara.co.uk> wrote:
> And an anti vote:
> Theydon Bois
And, similarly, Chesham Bois.
But may I add, however,
West India Quay -- Westindia Key
Heron Quays -- Heron Keys
South Quay -- South Key
Plaistow -- Plarstoh
And, further north,
Kirkaldy -- Kerkuddy
Leuchers -- Lookers
Stranraer -- Stranrar
Eigg -- Egg
--
ajw in STANMORE HA7
Chris McMillan
<gm6...@extrabit.clara.co.uk> writes
>Great project Martin! As a former resident, I feel that maybe
>'Wooster' should be 'Wuster'.
Talking to Worcester resident yesterday on the phone I desperately tried
to envisage whether he says Wooster or Wuster. I think it was more
Wuster, though my Bromsgrove friends have more of Wooster about it.
Chris - rubbish with phonetics
--
Chris McMillan
Chris McMillan
Wineberg <AJWin...@nospam.invalid> writes
>On Sun, 15 Dec 2002 11:27:23 +0000, Tim Hall
><tim...@diespamnmer.clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> And an anti vote:
>
> Eigg -- Egg
>
Skye - sky
Still haven't got the hang of this have I.
Sincerely, Chris
--
Chris McMillan
Chris McMillan
<mar...@spl.at> writes
>I may be imagining things, but I thought Andrew Bull muttered something
>about...
>>London - lundon ?
>>
>Good point. So well known that it has been overlooked so far.
>
>Or more pedantically - "lundun"!
(Just testing a theory at the same time)
My family would also say 'cut' instead of 'cot' as in Didcot. Rail
announcers now say 'cot'. We also tend to say 'cut' for 'cote' as in
Woodcote. This may be just our family as they've always lived in
Reading rather than a general local population thing.
Mike Ruddock
wrote:
[Big snips]
>Evesham, Worcestershire - aysham
I have never heard Evesham pronounced thus (the locals are split
between Eev-sham and Ever-sham), though there is a pub in the town
claiming to sell "Asum Ales".
What about Woolfardisworthy in Devon, pronounced locally "Woolsery"?
Martin Clark
something about...
>Shirley, it all rather depends on whether you are looking for "correct"
>pronunciations (who's to say what's "correct"?) or where standard
>English has one pronunciation and "local accent" has another.
Unfortunately, this whole thing is extremely complicated. It probably
explains why I can't find a website that already has a list of
pronunciations.
There seem to be a number of possible options with names:
1) The "correct" pronunciation of a name is the same as the way it is
spelt, such as Bridgwater and Poole.
2) A pronunciation different from the spelling is generally and widely
accepted, as in Alnwich, Towcester, Norwich and Derby.
3) People living in the place pronounce it differently than outsiders,
such as Slaithwaite, Pontefract and Congresbury. In such cases, what is
"correct" - the way the locals say it or the way the rest of the country
says it?
4) Where local pronunciation is really a "sloppy" form of what outsiders
would say, such as Beminster for Bedminster. Are these separate
pronunciations or just a lazy variant. This category could be considered
to include Tod for Todmorden and Hecky for Heckmondwike!
5) There seem to be cases where there is strong differences of opinion,
such as Evesham and Cirencester. In some cases there is some "evidence"
of a particular pronunciation being used while others living nearby say
they have never heard it said that way.
6) There's bound to be a 6).
It was my original intention to make a collection of oddities, like
Wymondham, Wrotham, Happisburgh and Brewood. If making the project
larger creates too many difficulties, I might end up just doing that.
It would, however, be nice to make it into some sort of definitive list
but I certainly haven't got time to visit places to research
pronunciation. I am trying to research pronunciations on the internet
but in many cases evidence is very hard to find. This is obviously where
the power of umra comes in. I don't want to put something on a web page
that is inaccurate or highly contentious. I get enough emails from
people who don't recognise Greater Manchester as an area. I don't want
to attract additional flak. All the comments being made are being noted.
This may result in some entries changing or some places not appearing on
the list at all eventually. Thanks for all the contributions so far -
keep them coming!
--
Martin
David Medcalf
wrote:
>I lived two miles from Keynsham for 5 years and always heard it as
>"kaneshum"
YAHoraceBachelorAICM£5
David
David Medcalf
wrote:
>I would be grateful for further suggestions along with clues as to how
>the place names are usually pronounced.
Woodacre, Lancashire - Waddiker
Gateacre, Merseyside - Gattiker
David
Stephen
Andrews) cry in a loud voice:
>On Sun, 15 Dec 2002 10:11:32 +0000, George Middleton
><Geo...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Stephen writes
>>>>And let's not forget:
>>>>Loughborough - luffbru
>>>
>>>I had always though that this place, although spelt as if it were
>>>pronounced "Low brow" was in fact pronounced "Loo brush."
>>
>>No, it is pronounced exactly as it's spelt.
>
>Lowjborowj!? ;o)
Loogabarooga?*
Menzies?
* I have actually heard it referred to as this, by a rather puzzled
American.
--
Stephen
It's amazing how much kids can learn about chemistry the old-fashioned way.
As soon as you get home from work, demand that they mix you an Old-Fashioned.
Stephen
<AJWin...@nospam.invalid> cry in a loud voice:
>On Sun, 15 Dec 2002 11:27:23 +0000, Tim Hall
><tim...@diespamnmer.clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> And an anti vote:
>
>> Theydon Bois
>
>And, similarly, Chesham Bois.
And indeed Hersham Boys (Hersham Boys, lace-up shoes and corduroys).
Andrew John Wineberg
<ch...@mikesounds.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> My family would also say 'cut' instead of 'cot' as in Didcot. Rail
> announcers now say 'cot'. We also tend to say 'cut' for 'cote' as in
> Woodcote. This may be just our family as they've always lived in
> Reading rather than a general local population thing.
I would tend to say Cuventry instead of Coventry, and cunstable instead
of constable... but only because it gives me great pleasure so to do.
(We have to make our own amusemnt in Stanmore, you know).
Stephen
<ch...@mikesounds.demon.co.uk> cry in a loud voice:
>My family would also say 'cut' instead of 'cot' as in Didcot. Rail
>announcers now say 'cot'. We also tend to say 'cut' for 'cote' as in
>Woodcote. This may be just our family as they've always lived in
>Reading rather than a general local population thing.
This is another example of what English people (but not Americans) do
to unstressed syllables. The International Phonetic Alphabet includes
something called a schwa (an upsidedown lowercase "e", Unicode 0259)
and described as a mid-central unrounded vowel, which is usually used
to represent this phonetically.
I can't do a schwa on this system, so I will use a "-"...
I certainly say Didc-t and Woodc-t (and even Woodm-nc-t), Lund-n,
Hartf-d etc. I would not consider the unstressed syllables to be
pronounced _differently_ from how they are spelled mainly because they
are barely pronounced _at all_.
This is Martin's project however, and so it is his call on what goes
into his list.
Anne Coulon
> I may be imagining things, but I thought Hugo Nebula muttered something
> about...
>
>> From the chaotic regions of the Cryptosphere, Martin Clark
>> <mar...@spl.at> wrote on Sat, 14 Dec 2002 21:56:10 +0000:
>>
>>> Keynsham, Bristol - kaneshum
>>
>> I work in Keynsham, and AFAIR it's pronounced how it's spelt (subject
>> to the local accent).
>>
> I lived two miles from Keynsham for 5 years and always heard it as
> "kaneshum" and never "keenshum", unless the pronunciation has changed in
> recent years
I read it as "Kanesham" and that can only be because that's how I heard
it pronounced when I used to live in Brissle, (over) twenty-year-ago.
> Oh dear. I have a feeling that there are some place names that will
> never be agrees upon.
What do other present Brissle-rats say? (Calling the real Kate Lambert,
for one - and what about Jezza? (belated hello and welcome to Umra, moy
lover (in the Brissle sense of the word, just in case anyone was
inclined to think Chiffon and Biriani thoughts)).
All the best,
Anne, Gumrat
George Middleton
>>>No, it is pronounced exactly as it's spelt.
>>
>>Lowjborowj!? ;o)
>
>Loogabarooga?*
Loughborough,
Tough and thorough.
--
George
Menelaus
Southend -- Sarfend
Speke -- Speeecccchhhhhhhh (with spit)
Kensington (Liverpool) -- Kenny
Prestatyn -- Press-that-in-as-the-actress-said-to-the-vicar!
Menelaus
news:3e0b5559....@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:26:47 -0000, "Menelaus"
> <sp...@spamspamspamspamspameggsandspam.com> wrote:
>
> >Hertfordshire - Harfudshire
>
> Since when? I was born there and pronounce a definite T.
>
So was I - and we were told that 'pronouncing a definite T' was considered
rather akin to bidding and undeclared convention at bridge, chilling the
claret or beating someone else's wife - in the best circles it simply isn't
done.[1]
Probably like someone from Harlow inadvertently pronouncing te 'H'!
[1] A brilliant quote, n'est-ce'pas, but apapted from which book?
BWAHAHAHA
Stephen GC Tilley
...
>
>This is another example of what English people (but not Americans) do
>to unstressed syllables. The International Phonetic Alphabet includes
>something called a schwa (an upsidedown lowercase "e", Unicode 0259)
>and described as a mid-central unrounded vowel, which is usually used
>to represent this phonetically.
>
>I can't do a schwa on this system, so I will use a "-"...
>
>I certainly say Didc-t and Woodc-t (and even Woodm-nc-t), Lund-n,
>Hartf-d etc. I would not consider the unstressed syllables to be
>pronounced _differently_ from how they are spelled mainly because they
>are barely pronounced _at all_.
Thanks, I was going to ask why it seemed that the majority of placenames can be,
or are, not pronounced as written. I was thinking of Lincoln as an example and
the above explanation covers it as well as all the -ings in Sussex where the
final syllable almost vanishes completely, e.g. Worth'n.
>
>This is Martin's project however, and so it is his call on what goes
>into his list.
Is there a Saloprat who can say how the first, stressed syllable of Shrewsbury
should be pronounced. Does it rhymes with shoes or shows?
--
Stephen Tilley - Ste...@Tilley.net
The glass is falling hour by hour, the glass will fall for ever,
But if you break the bloody glass you won't hold up the weather.
Louis MacNeice, 1938, Bagpipe Music.
Penny
<AJWin...@nospam.invalid> wrote...
>On Sun, 15 Dec 2002 11:27:23 +0000, Tim Hall
><tim...@diespamnmer.clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> And an anti vote:
>
>> Theydon Bois
>
>And, similarly, Chesham Bois.
Ah but is that Chess-'am Boys or Che-sham Boys?
IME Essex (and possibly Suffolk) places ending with thall or shall are
pronounced with the hall part as a distinct syllabub such as Chris-hall,
Stret-hall.
Thinking of East Anglia I guess Narj for Norwich and Braffing for Braughing
should be included.
--
Penny
Laughter is the dance of the spirit and the music of the soul.
umra Nicknames & Abbreviations http://www.bigwig.net/umra/nicks.html
Ray
<mi...@ruddock50.fsnet.co.uk> wrote...
>On Sat, 14 Dec 2002 21:56:10 +0000, Martin Clark <mar...@spl.at>
>wrote:
>
>[Big snips]
>
>>Evesham, Worcestershire - aysham
>
>I have never heard Evesham pronounced thus (the locals are split
>between Eev-sham and Ever-sham), though there is a pub in the town
>claiming to sell "Asum Ales".
I used to work with a typesetter from Evesham and he always called it
Aysham or Asum - he's probably about 60. It could well be "arcane"
pronunciation, I doubt many current residents of Wednesbury call it
Wedgebury but that's what it was when I were a lad.
--
Ray
Genes from Man at DNA.
Robin Somes
<mar...@spl.at> writes
> I thought it would be a good idea to collect together a list of
>English place names that are not pronounced the same way that they are
>spelt.
<round of applause>
>Beaulieu, Hampshire - boeley
<pedant on>
Bewley
<pedant off>
>Norwich - norridge
And Narch...
What about things like Magdalen College, Oxford, and Gonville & Caius,
Cambridge?
Also:
Alresford, Hants: Alsford
Awbridge, Hants: Aybridge
Bevois Valley, Southampton: Beavers Valley (quite apt, as it happens)
Dittisham, Devon: Ditchum
East Boldre, Hants: Eece Bowder
Hamptworth, Wilts: Amptith
Heysham, Lancs: Heeshum
Micheldever, Hants: Mitchelldevver
Michelmersh, Hants: Micklemarsh
Norleywood, Hants: Narley'ood
Romsey, Hants: Rumsey (controversial)
Saxmundham, Suffolk: Sax
Weston-super-mare: Premier seaside resort
cheers,
robin
--
EMU & RHEUM - Turgidity Is My Watchword
Trust me, I'm a webmaster......
Kim Andrews
wrote:
>Unfortunately, this whole thing is extremely complicated. It probably
>explains why I can't find a website that already has a list of
>pronunciations.
This might be rather more work than you wish to indulge (!?) in, but
it seems to me that what's required is a table headed thusly:
Spelling | General pronunciation | Local pron. | Variations
... which, as you say, might be why it's never been done!
--
Cheers, Kimbo
Best of umra archive www.totternhoe.demon.co.uk/umra/
Where don't you want to go today? www.foca.co.uk/drearyplaces/
"May 6,000 strabismic telephone operators prance in your genitals.
oo-er, wrong newsgroup." Charles F Hankel -- Hapless FAQer on the Wirral peninsula. RIP.
Niles
|Is there a Saloprat who can say how the first, stressed syllable of Shrewsbury
|should be pronounced. Does it rhymes with shoes or shows?
I was born there, and I don't know!
--
Niles, Nottingham # I find it kinda funny,
ICQ UIN 12724766 # I find it kinda sad,
outpages.com/nilex # the dreams in which I'm dying
www.niles.org.uk # are the best I've ever had
Niles
|Shrewsbury - Shrews bry if local
| Shrows bry if educated!!
Are those mutually exclusive categories?
Anne Burgess
> >
> >I had always though that this place, although spelt as if it were
> >pronounced "Low brow" was in fact pronounced "Loo brush."
>
Ah. Lochbroch then.
Anne
Anne Burgess
> that creates the difficulty of whether the names are gaelic or welsh in
> origin and pronunciation.
Dare I say .... chicken! <G> (ducks hastily)
Athelstaneford, which, as I mentioned earlier, is pronounced "Elshinford" is
pure English in linguistic terms, albeit it happens to be in Scotland.
(Meaning Athelstane's ford, of course, and Athelstane meaning something like
'noble stone' from 'athel' meaning 'noble' as in Edgar the Atheling,
well-known pre-Norman English king, and 'stone'.)
Then there is Oban, which is pure Gaelic ('ob' meaning 'bay', and 'ban'
meaning 'white') which is pronounced exactly as spelled (stress on the first
syllable, by the way - the spelling does not make this clear). I could
produce dozens of other Gaelic place names which are spelled exactly as
pronounced in both English and Gaelic.
Your list, which avoids Gaelic and Welsh, nevertheless contains several
names of non-English origin, such as Alnwick (Norse) Beaulieu and Belvoir
(French). So how do you get over "the difficulty of whether names are Norse
or Welsh in origin or pronunciation" to borrow a phrase?
:))
Anne
Anne Burgess
Anne (B not C)
Helen BRACE
"Stephen" <stephe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3dfc9815....@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
> And when the Seventh Seal was opened I heard k...@foca.co.uk (Kim
> Andrews) cry in a loud voice:
>
> >On Sun, 15 Dec 2002 10:11:32 +0000, George Middleton
> ><Geo...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >>Stephen writes
> >>>>And let's not forget:
> >>>>Loughborough - luffbru
> >>>
> >>>I had always though that this place, although spelt as if it were
> >>>pronounced "Low brow" was in fact pronounced "Loo brush."
> >>
> >>No, it is pronounced exactly as it's spelt.
> >
> >Lowjborowj!? ;o)
>
> Loogabarooga?*
>
> Menzies?
>
>
> * I have actually heard it referred to as this, by a rather puzzled
> American.
>
> --
And I have heard Leuchars referred to as Lew Chars.
Helen B
Anne Burgess
> Shrows bry if educated!!
>
So what does an educated Salopian say?
Anne
Anne Burgess
But I expect Martin will disqualify it on the grounds that it is Gaelic. For
the record the Gaelic version is "Ceann-a-ghiuseach".
Anne
Anne Burgess
> >please add Aldeburgh - Awldbruh.
> >
> Good point. Are there any exceptions to that "rule"?
> i.e. are there any places ending in -burgh where it is not pronounced
> "-bruh"?
Edinburgh
Helensburgh
Fraserburgh
All of which are linguistically English (Edwin's burgh, Helen's burgh,
Fraser burgh) and all of which are pronounced "-burra".
Anne
Fenny
I heard Anne Burgess say...
> Dare I say .... chicken! <G> (ducks hastily)
>
How do *you* pronounce it?
--
Fenny
It's better to be alone than in the wrong company
Rosemary Miskin
<cosmic...@DESPAMPLEASEhotmail.com> wrote:
> Is Kegworth really keggorth? I'm sure I heard locals pronouncing the W
> when I lived up there.
Old-time locals seem to say 'keggorth', but it appears to be falling into
disuse: I don't think I've heard anyone under 60 use that pronunciation in
the last two decades.
Rosemary
--
Rosemary Miskin ZFC LVI mis...@argonet.co.uk
Loughborough, UK http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/miskin
Anne Burgess
> Theydon Bois
And, similarly, Chesham Bois.
But may I add, however,
And, further north,
Leuchers -- Lookers
Sorry, no, you can't have that. The 'ch' in Leuchars should not be
pronounced as if it were a 'k'. It is a voiceless glottal fricative, as in
'loch'.
Anyway that's another one Martin is going to disqualify on geographical
grounds <g>
Anne
Neil Hopkins
allspamwil...@rickmansworth.mersinet.co.uk (Fenny) wrote:
>Previously on Buffy the Vampire Slayer ^W^W^W^W uk.media.radio.archers,
>I heard Anne Burgess say...
>
>> Dare I say .... chicken! <G> (ducks hastily)
>>
>How do *you* pronounce it?
Ruairidh.
--
neil h.
Spike : Sodding, blimey, shagging, knickers, bollocks, Oh God - I'm English!
Martin Clark
> I doubt many current residents of Wednesbury call it
>Wedgebury but that's what it was when I were a lad.
<sigh> You were the source of that information in the first place, Ray!
Perhaps we should have a sub-thread about places that seem to have
changed the way they are pronounced in recent years?
Kegworth.... what else?
--
Martin
Martin Clark
about...
are causing grief enough!
--
Martin
Martin Clark
about...
>>Beaulieu, Hampshire - boeley
>
><pedant on>
>Bewley
><pedant off>
>
went and typed that. I've no idea what I was thinking of.
>>Norwich - norridge
>
>And Narch...
>
That's not how Alan Partridge says it...
>What about things like Magdalen College, Oxford, and Gonville & Caius,
>Cambridge?
>
Town and village names are more than enough to cope with.
>Romsey, Hants: Rumsey (controversial)
Sorry - I'm not doing controversial any more!
--
Martin
Martin Clark
about...
>names of non-English origin, such as Alnwick (Norse) Beaulieu and Belvoir
>(French). So how do you get over "the difficulty of whether names are Norse
>or Welsh in origin or pronunciation" to borrow a phrase?
I think you're trying to talk me out of this!
--
Martin
Tony Gartshore
>
>
> And some others from where I used to live:
>
> Coleorton, Leics - cullorton
> Whitwick, Leics - wittick
> Groby, Leicester - grooby
>
As a Shepshed lad I'm glad you mentioned thoase last
two..
> And let's not forget:
> Loughborough - luffbru
>
> Is Kegworth really keggorth? I'm sure I heard locals pronouncing the W when
> I lived up there.
always knew it.. Of course it's possible thet
gentrification has set in as per the London borough of
St Reatham..
T.
--
There are 10 types of people in the world.
Those that understand binary and those that don't.
George Middleton
>i.e. are there any places ending in -burgh where it is not pronounced
>"-bruh"?
Middlesbrough is definitely pronounced "bro" to rhyme with "toe" my
friends up there
--
George
Jezza
<3DFCA282...@freesurf.ch>, Anne Coulon <simpl...@freesurf.ch>
uttered the following:
>Martin Clark wrote:
>> I may be imagining things, but I thought Hugo Nebula muttered something
>> about...
>>
>>> From the chaotic regions of the Cryptosphere, Martin Clark
>>> <mar...@spl.at> wrote on Sat, 14 Dec 2002 21:56:10 +0000:
>>>
>>>> Keynsham, Bristol - kaneshum
>>>
>>> I work in Keynsham, and AFAIR it's pronounced how it's spelt (subject
>>> to the local accent).
>>>
>> I lived two miles from Keynsham for 5 years and always heard it as
>> "kaneshum" and never "keenshum", unless the pronunciation has changed in
>> recent years
>
>I read it as "Kanesham" and that can only be because that's how I heard
>it pronounced when I used to live in Brissle, (over) twenty-year-ago.
>
>> Oh dear. I have a feeling that there are some place names that will
>> never be agrees upon.
>
>What do other present Brissle-rats say? (Calling the real Kate Lambert,
>for one - and what about Jezza? (belated hello and welcome to Umra, moy
>lover (in the Brissle sense of the word, just in case anyone was
>inclined to think Chiffon and Biriani thoughts)).
>
Indeed kaneshum or kanesham nut not keenshum
Hanham - annum
Staple Hill - staypull'ill
Pennsylvania (nr barf) - pencil vain yer
Minchinhampton - minch'ampton
--
Jezza - Bristol Boatman
<http://www.hotwells.freeserve.co.uk/citydocks.html>
<http://www.bristolpacket.co.uk/>
Try the online quizzes
George Middleton
>Perhaps we should have a sub-thread about places that seem to have
>changed the way they are pronounced in recent years?
>
>Kegworth.... what else?
If you pronounce Lake district names as Wainwright suggests you get
Scawfl, Bowfl, Wozdl Head, Wobbatht, Skidda with the accent always on
the first syllable. He says that the accent should be on the particular
part of the name rather than the general. I've seldom heard these names
used locally though either by farmers (who tend not to talk to tourists
anyway) or other walkers. I don't think a new Wainwright would bother to
tell us.
--
George
Barbara W
> There seem to be a number of possible options with names:
.....<snip>
Congrats of finding another mammoth task, Martin !
:-)
Age, percieved class, and length of residence seem to affect
pronounciation too
e.g.
Romsey Hants - whether it 'should' be 'Rumsey'/'Romsey'. I have heard
the same people use different pronounciations depending on who they were
talking to!
Longham, Dorset - I never ever thought of this as anything other than
'Long Ham' when I lived nearby and visited elderly Auntie. but in Local
radio-speak it now seems to be referred to as 'Long-um'. Maybe the
place has changed so much I would no longer recognise it anyway!
Barbara
Anne Burgess
> >names of non-English origin, such as Alnwick (Norse) Beaulieu and Belvoir
> >(French). So how do you get over "the difficulty of whether names are
Norse
> >or Welsh in origin or pronunciation" to borrow a phrase?
>
> I think you're trying to talk me out of this!
Absolutely not. I am thoroughly enjoying it.
But allowing French and Norse names, while excluding Welsh and Gaelic ones,
not to mention place names which are linguistically English if not
geographically, is not only illogical, but could be regarded as unwarranted
discrimination against the native languages of these islands <G>
Anne
Anne Burgess
> >
> How do *you* pronounce it?
Well ...
ch as in 'loch', of course
'i' as in 'Woolfardisworthy
c as in foccacia (take your pick)
'k' as in 'knee'
'e' as in 'women'
'n' as in 'sing'
Anne
Barbara W
"Martin Clark"
> Beaulieu, Hampshire - boeley
I`d probably say 'B'you - lee'....
>Dibden Purlieu, Hampshire - dibdun purloo
If you are doing a stress indicator (!!) then IMVHO locals would tend to
say pur-LOO whereas less-locals would say PUR-l'you
can you add
Awbridge Hants (ay-bridge) (rhymes with Hay)
Barbara
Hants rat
Stephen
<AJWin...@nospam.invalid> cry in a loud voice:
>On Sun, 15 Dec 2002 12:50:24 +0000, Chris McMillan
><ch...@mikesounds.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> My family would also say 'cut' instead of 'cot' as in Didcot. Rail=20
>> announcers now say 'cot'. We also tend to say 'cut' for 'cote' as in=20
>> Woodcote. This may be just our family as they've always lived in=20
>> Reading rather than a general local population thing.
>
>I would tend to say Cuventry instead of Coventry, and cunstable instead
>of constable... but only because it gives me great pleasure so to do.
>(We have to make our own amusemnt in Stanmore, you know).
Saint Anne Moore shurley?
--
Stephen
It's amazing how much kids can learn about chemistry the old-fashioned way.
As soon as you get home from work, demand that they mix you an Old-Fashioned.
Stephen
<mar...@spl.at> cry in a loud voice:
Windscale.
Jane Vernon
<wr...@ubgjryyf.serrfreir.pb.hx.vainyvq> writes
Minchinhampton, or sometimes Minch'n'ampton, though usually referred to
as Minch.
--
Jane
The potter in the purple socks
http://www.clothandclay.co.uk
http://www.clothandclay.co.uk/umra/cookbook/contents.htm
Jezza
<wTfP6JUvnO$9E...@clara.net>, Jane Vernon
<Purple...@clothandclay.co.uk> uttered the following:
>Is this near Brissle, then? The one two miles from me is pronounced
>Minchinhampton, or sometimes Minch'n'ampton, though usually referred to
>as Minch.
I work with a minchinite who allus says minch'ampton or minch.
BrritSki
Stephen wrote:
>
> And when the Seventh Seal was opened I heard Andrew John Wineberg
> <AJWin...@nospam.invalid> cry in a loud voice:
>
> >On Sun, 15 Dec 2002 12:50:24 +0000, Chris McMillan
> ><ch...@mikesounds.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> My family would also say 'cut' instead of 'cot' as in Didcot. Rail=20
> >> announcers now say 'cot'. We also tend to say 'cut' for 'cote' as in=20
> >> Woodcote. This may be just our family as they've always lived in=20
> >> Reading rather than a general local population thing.
> >
> >I would tend to say Cuventry instead of Coventry, and cunstable instead
> >of constable... but only because it gives me great pleasure so to do.
> >(We have to make our own amusemnt in Stanmore, you know).
>
> Saint Anne Moore shurley?
>
One of the districts in Coventry is called Cheylesmore, pronounced
Charles Moore.
Martin Clark
about...
>>
>
>
>But allowing French and Norse names, while excluding Welsh and Gaelic ones,
>not to mention place names which are linguistically English if not
>geographically, is not only illogical, but could be regarded as unwarranted
>discrimination against the native languages of these islands <G>
>
Gaelic origin, along with those of French, Norman, Saxon, Viking, Roman,
Scandinavian or whatever origin.
I wanted to contain the scope of this to places within England because,
once you venture beyond its boundaries, the criterion of the
pronunciation being different from the spelling becomes much more
debatable when you start considering whether you are talking about
Welsh/Gaelic or English versions of the place name, Welsh/Gaelic or
English pronunciation of the letters in the place name, along with other
possible considerations which I don't even dare think about.
There - I think I've gone and confused myself again now.
--
Martin
Fenny
> And when the Seventh Seal was opened I heard Martin Clark
> <mar...@spl.at> cry in a loud voice:
>
> >I may be imagining things, but I thought Ray muttered something about...
> >
> >> I doubt many current residents of Wednesbury call it
> >>Wedgebury but that's what it was when I were a lad.
> >
> ><sigh> You were the source of that information in the first place, Ray!
> >
> >Perhaps we should have a sub-thread about places that seem to have
> >changed the way they are pronounced in recent years?
> >
> >Kegworth.... what else?
>
> Windscale.
>
Martin Clark
about...
><wTfP6JUvnO$9E...@clara.net>, Jane Vernon uttered the following:
>>Jezza writes
>>>Minchinhampton - minch'ampton
>>>
>>Is this near Brissle, then? The one two miles from me is pronounced
>>Minchinhampton, or sometimes Minch'n'ampton, though usually referred
to >>as Minch.
>
>I work with a minchinite who allus says minch'ampton or minch.
>
A perfect example of how impossible this is becoming!
--
Martin
Stephen
loud voice:
>Previously on Buffy the Vampire Slayer ^W^W^W^W uk.media.radio.archers,
>I heard Stephen say...
>> And when the Seventh Seal was opened I heard Martin Clark
>> <mar...@spl.at> cry in a loud voice:
>>
>> >I may be imagining things, but I thought Ray muttered something about...
>> >
>> >> I doubt many current residents of Wednesbury call it
>> >>Wedgebury but that's what it was when I were a lad.
>> >
>> ><sigh> You were the source of that information in the first place, Ray!
>> >
>> >Perhaps we should have a sub-thread about places that seem to have
>> >changed the way they are pronounced in recent years?
>> >
>> >Kegworth.... what else?
>>
>> Windscale.
>>
>Pronounced "Calder Hall" or "Sellafield" deepending on how old you are?
I'd forgotten the Calder Hall bit, but yup.
Stephen
>What about all places called 'castle' which ignorant people, most of them
>Southerners, mispronounce 'cars-el'? The correct English pronunciation is
>'cass-el'. The same goes for words like dance.
>
>The long 'a' came in from French in the mid-nineteenth century and was
>adopted by people in the South because it was thought to sound more
>refined. It doesn't, it sounds put on. Hopefully the long 'a' will die
>off and people will return to the English pronunciation.
But English pronunciation has always been evolving, and has always
been full of regional variations. "BBC pronunciation" was until about
150 years ago spoken only in the East Midlands; People in Essex used
to speak in a way that sounds quite a lot like a modern Boston (USA)
accent; Since the 12th Century or so the language has been full of
Romance vocabulary piled onto a simplified Germanic structure.
Regional variations have been weakening since the advent of the
railways, and radio and TV have accelerated that process while at the
same time broadening the range of inputs (mostly by adding
Americanisms). Even if we find ourselves rhyming castle with hassle
at some future date it will probably because of the influence of some
new trendsetter rather than representing a return to our roots.
Who knows, maybe we will one day move beyond the abuse of "hopefully"
too. :-)
Kim Andrews
Boothroyd) wrote:
>The long 'a' came in from French in the mid-nineteenth century and was
>adopted by people in the South because it was thought to sound more
>refined. It doesn't, it sounds put on.
If one is born and bred in the South, it simply sounds normal. I do,
however, like the sound of Northern short vowels. But if I were to
start using them, *that* would sound put on and phoney. Anyway,
should a staunce defender of the "original" use of language abuse
"hopefully" in such a willful manner? ;o)
--
Cheers, Kimbo
Best of umra archive www.totternhoe.demon.co.uk/umra/
Where don't you want to go today? www.foca.co.uk/drearyplaces/
"May 6,000 strabismic telephone operators prance in your genitals.
oo-er, wrong newsgroup." Charles F Hankel -- Hapless FAQer on the Wirral peninsula. RIP.
Andrew John Wineberg
wrote:
> Who knows, maybe we will one day move beyond the abuse of "hopefully"
> too. :-)
Oh yes, hopefully we will!
--
ajw in STANMORE HA7
Iain Archer
>Who knows, maybe we will one day move beyond the abuse of "hopefully"
>too. :-)
Hoffentlich.
See also
http://www.linguistlist.org/~ask-ling/archive-1997.5/msg00227.html
--
Iain Archer
Andrew John Wineberg
wrote:
> Ah but is that Chess-'am Boys or Che-sham Boys?
Che-sham Boys.
Although it's very much more of a "bois" than a "boys" IYSWIM.