NICAM PAL VCR with true NTSC playback, anyone recommend one?
Christopher K Jackman
Hi folks,
My old Philips VCR seems to be about to kick the bucket.
So, now I'm looking for a new VCR and hope those of you here with multi-
standard VCRs may be able to recommend a make or model.
It needs to be NICAM PAL with 2 SCARTS and have true NTSC tape playback,
not just NTSC on PAL TV.
Please could someone tell me if NTSC on PAL is known as NTSC 4.43, and
pure NTSC would be NTSC 3.53? (I may have the numbers wrong).
Any help is gratefully accepted!
Chris.
--
Christopher K Jackman
Trevor Cook
Christopher K Jackman <ch...@pippy.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Chris,
> Please could someone tell me if NTSC on PAL is known as NTSC 4.43, and
> pure NTSC would be NTSC 3.53? (I may have the numbers wrong).
>
Its years since I did any TV/Video stuff, but you are essentially
correct. NTSC 4.43 is call NTSC playback on PAL TV (actually PAL 60) and
NTSC 3.58 is the true form of NTSC.
4.43 is merely a "cheat" to make it easier to build PAL VCRs and
monitors that can play NTSC tapes, without them having to have
oscillators and crystals for 3.58MHz, this is mainly used for US
military personnel in Europe.
I don't know of any multi-standard vcr with true NTSC playback in the
UK, but I sure I may be wrong on this. I know there is a special
converter you can buy to get a true NTSC output for recording purposes.
I sure someone in UMAA land will be able to advise you on the correct
vcr for you purposes.
Cheers Chris,
Trevor
--
Trevor Cook
http://www.hull.ac.uk/php/pystc/Trevor.htm
----------------------------------------
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Christopher K Jackman
deja.com> writes
> I don't know of any multi-standard vcr with true NTSC playback in the
>UK, but I sure I may be wrong on this.
I just did a search of WWW and came up with two promising VCRs:
SONY SLV-X830
AIWA HV-MX100
(It sure would be nice if VCR manufacturers could put more detail into
their product spec. lists...)
Does anyone know of a price and UK supplier for either of the above?
Stuart Dawson
>My old Philips VCR seems to be about to kick the bucket.
>So, now I'm looking for a new VCR and hope those of you here with multi-
>standard VCRs may be able to recommend a make or model.
Most of the Panasonic 6**AM series seem to be fairly good. There's
been a few people bought them and most seem to be happy enough. Make
sure it's an AM on the end though for it to be a multistandard.
>It needs to be NICAM PAL with 2 SCARTS and have true NTSC tape playback,
>not just NTSC on PAL TV.
You may have to put up with phono connections instead of SCARTs.
>Please could someone tell me if NTSC on PAL is known as NTSC 4.43, and
>pure NTSC would be NTSC 3.53? (I may have the numbers wrong).
There's NTSC 3.58 (which for the sake of argument can be regaded as
"pure" NTSC - it's what they use to broadcast TV programmes in) and
then there's NTSC 4.43 (which for the sake of argument can be simply
considered as a varient of "pure" NTSC).
NTSC playback on PAL TV is a different monster all together. You
can't record it (unless you got some really impressive gear) and it's
only really useful for those who's TVs can't handle "pure" NTSC.
Ignore it if finances will allow.
--
***AKEMI TAKADA*******KOR******TWILIGHT X*****
Goldfish - Very colourful but no memory
Me = Goldfish
**********GOLD DIGGER******GRITSTONE**********
Tiggs (AndyK)
notice them state the following upon uk.media.animation.anime:
>There's NTSC 3.58 (which for the sake of argument can be regaded as
>"pure" NTSC - it's what they use to broadcast TV programmes in) and
>then there's NTSC 4.43 (which for the sake of argument can be simply
>considered as a varient of "pure" NTSC).
OK. I wasn't going to to ask here, but it's been brought up. What
exactly is NTSC4.43? Several VCRs in high street shops handle it, abnd
I'm wondering exactly what PAL + NTSC4.43 decks can actually do.
Tiggs
--
Tiggs
- Still Lost, still Travelling. The search for Home continues.
- This message was brought to you by Andy Kitching (poor you!)
"Everything that has gone before is what made who I am!"
Christopher K Jackman
Dawson <stu...@jingoro.demon.co.uk> writes
>NTSC playback on PAL TV is a different monster all together. You
>can't record it (unless you got some really impressive gear) and it's
>only really useful for those who's TVs can't handle "pure" NTSC.
>Ignore it if finances will allow.
That's what my Philips was. Now that it's malfunctioning on a regular
basis I've decided it's time to lay it to rest; it was good while it
worked. I could 'kind of' record the 'NTSC on PAL' output on my Thomson
VCR, which can record a pure NTSC signal. You could either get a wobbly
black and white NTSC recording or a colour picture with horizontal
flicker. It wasn't what you'd call watchable.
Anyway, I trawled the WWW again and have come to the conclusion that the
multi-standard PAL VCRs with NTSC 3.58 output are going to be quite
difficult to track down in UK outlets. The models that look tasty are
probably intended for the European market. However, on the off chance
that anyone actually has info of any of the following VCRs or know where
I might purchase them, here are the units:
Sharp VC-MH71R or a MH83
Philips VR 756
Thomson VPH 6880 or 6990
I'd quite like another Thomson, they're so cool (French, I think).
I'll check out my local retailers and maybe have a look around central
London next time I go down there; scour some magazines too.
Geoff Cowie
<ch...@pippy.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Hi folks,
>
>My old Philips VCR seems to be about to kick the bucket.
>So, now I'm looking for a new VCR and hope those of you here with multi-
>standard VCRs may be able to recommend a make or model.
>
>It needs to be NICAM PAL with 2 SCARTS and have true NTSC tape playback,
>not just NTSC on PAL TV.
>
>Please could someone tell me if NTSC on PAL is known as NTSC 4.43, and
>pure NTSC would be NTSC 3.53? (I may have the numbers wrong).
>
>Any help is gratefully accepted!
>
> Chris.
>
>--
>Christopher K Jackman
I use a Sharp H96 multistandard VCR. (with NICAM, 3.56 & 4.43 NTSC &
SECAM & PAL) It cost me nearly £600 several years ago and I bought it
in the Edgware Rd, London. I think this is a grey import as it was
apparently made for sale in Hong Kong. Service support, apart from
taking it back before the guarantee runs out, is doubtful. I tried to
get a local video repairer (a major one) to repair a minor fault. They
couldn't do anything and I eventually had to fix it myself.
Machines like this are unlikely to have SCART sockets.
Likewise I don't think you can buy full NTSC able machines on the UK
market anymore. This could be a cost saving move by the makers, or
maybe we have been rumbled...
BTW, NICAM is a broadcast standard, wheras stereo tapes nowadays use a
hifi depth encoding technique (you can check the details elsewhere.)
These are quite separate things, but confusing as the two are almost
always bundled togther in UK or some Euro market machines. Not many
countries broadcast NICAM stereo. It's worth bearing all this in mind
if what you actually want is an import machine that plays hi-fi stereo
NTSC tapes. If I'd bought an import NTSC-able hi-fi stereo VCR
(without NICAM) I would have saved about £200.
All retail OVA tapes and many recent fan TV anime tapes are recorded
in hifi stereo, so considering the prices of VCRs nowadays, not having
hifi stereo capability is a false economy.
I wonder how much it costs to buy a US hi-fi stereo VCR and have it
shipped over? Just look at the prices of ours, and consider that our
stuff is usually 50% more expensive.
Geoff Cowie, shoujo anime & manga fan.
Shoujo & General: 500 anime/manga reviews:
http://users.powernet.co.uk/shoujo/
Probably the biggest anime review site on the Internet.
SF & misc. site:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/shoujo
Stuart Dawson
> Its years since I did any TV/Video stuff, but you are essentially
>correct. NTSC 4.43 is call NTSC playback on PAL TV (actually PAL 60)
IIRC this is wrong.
> I don't know of any multi-standard vcr with true NTSC playback in the
>UK, but I sure I may be wrong on this.
There are a few but they tend to be the multistandard converters like
the Samsungs, Panansonic and Co. If you don't need to convert
NTSC>PAL or PAL>NTSC you don't need one of these.
Stuart Dawson
>OK. I wasn't going to to ask here, but it's been brought up. What
>exactly is NTSC4.43? Several VCRs in high street shops handle it, abnd
>I'm wondering exactly what PAL + NTSC4.43 decks can actually do.
I think what we really need here is a "PAL and NTSC FAQ". Does anyone
who knows the full specs for all video formats fancy putting one
together?
Tom Jordaan
> In article <HjMP0CAc...@pippy.demon.co.uk>,
> Christopher K Jackman <ch...@pippy.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>> Please could someone tell me if NTSC on PAL is known as NTSC 4.43, and
>> pure NTSC would be NTSC 3.53? (I may have the numbers wrong).
>>
> Its years since I did any TV/Video stuff, but you are essentially
> correct. NTSC 4.43 is call NTSC playback on PAL TV (actually PAL 60) and
> NTSC 3.58 is the true form of NTSC.
*thwack*
NTSC 4.43 is *not* PAL 60! PAL 60 is 525 lines, 60Hz with PAL colour
encoding rather than NTSC colour. Quite a few TVs (though it's often
impossible to predict which ones) will handle this.
NTSC 4.43 differs from 3.58 merely by the frequency at which it
places the colour information (4.43MHz rather than 3.58MHz - 4.43MHz
is the frequency that PAL places its colour information at.)
> 4.43 is merely a "cheat" to make it easier to build PAL VCRs and
> monitors that can play NTSC tapes, without them having to have
> oscillators and crystals for 3.58MHz, this is mainly used for US
> military personnel in Europe.
Weeellll... not so much easier, as cheaper.
> I don't know of any multi-standard vcr with true NTSC playback in the
> UK, but I sure I may be wrong on this.
You are. I've seen them in reputable outlets on Tottenham Court Road
(if that isn't a contradiction, of course...) but I don't seem to recall
any that did 3.58 and did it in stereo as well.
--
Tom Jordaan - ranma.spam *will* bounce, remove the spam thing.
"You'd better stop. Hasukawa's eyes are about to pop right out."
www.phlebas.demon.co.uk for Banana Fish, Ultraviolet, This Life
Tom Jordaan
> As I scried upon stu...@jingoro.demon.co.uk (Stuart Dawson), I did
> notice them state the following upon uk.media.animation.anime:
>>There's NTSC 3.58 (which for the sake of argument can be regaded as
>>"pure" NTSC - it's what they use to broadcast TV programmes in) and
>>then there's NTSC 4.43 (which for the sake of argument can be simply
>>considered as a varient of "pure" NTSC).
> OK. I wasn't going to to ask here, but it's been brought up. What
> exactly is NTSC4.43?
The "4.43" refers to the frequency at which the chroma carrier is
placed (as opposed to the luma carrier). 4.43MHz is where PAL places
the colour as well, and this is why VCRs that are primarily PAL tend
only to have an NTSC 4.43 output.[0] Most NTSC kit it seems will cope
with this hybrid. Sadly, the Bt848A videograbber doesn't seem to be
one of them.
> Several VCRs in high street shops handle it, abnd
> I'm wondering exactly what PAL + NTSC4.43 decks can actually do.
It varies. Most, I suspect, will only play back NTSC tapes as NTSC
4.43 or PAL 60. This seems to be the case with the Sony I have.
--
"You'd better stop. Hasukawa's eyes are about to pop right out."
www.phlebas.demon.co.uk for Banana Fish, Ultraviolet, This Life
[0] If you want gory details, I can email them to you...
Tom Jordaan
> ti...@pathway3.freeserve.co.uk (Tiggs (AndyK)) wrote:
>>OK. I wasn't going to to ask here, but it's been brought up. What
>>exactly is NTSC4.43? Several VCRs in high street shops handle it, abnd
>>I'm wondering exactly what PAL + NTSC4.43 decks can actually do.
> I think what we really need here is a "PAL and NTSC FAQ". Does anyone
> who knows the full specs for all video formats fancy putting one
> together?
I'll have a crack at it...
--
Tom Jordaan - ranma.spam *will* bounce, remove the spam thing.
fox
(Geoff Cowie) wrote:
>Likewise I don't think you can buy full NTSC able machines on the UK
>market anymore. This could be a cost saving move by the makers, or
>maybe we have been rumbled...
<looks at 3 month old Lektropacks MCV-1>
I don't think that's entirely true. Even my Toshiba claims to be able
to output a pure NTSC signal, and the MCV-1 will convert anything to
anything, and it's made by a british company (even if it doesn't come
with a british plug).
Fox
wildth...@my-deja.com
i.e. NTSC/SECAM/PAL/Nicam/GermanStereo/100V-250V etc... ^_^
Each costing around £120 from Hong Kong.
I also have a UK Panasonic which has a switch to output "pure NTSC" or
NTSC-PAL(60).
I can tape from the UK panny to my imported VCRs.
I've seen Sony's which can also output pure NTSC.
So Pure NTSC Stereo VCRs do exist in the UK.
Just look for them!
Stuart Dawson
>You are. I've seen them in reputable outlets on Tottenham Court Road
>(if that isn't a contradiction, of course...) but I don't seem to recall
>any that did 3.58 and did it in stereo as well.
Most of the decent ones (of the bunch I looked at when I was down
there buying anyway) seem have a switch on them somewhere to flip
between NTSC3.58 / NTSC4.43 / NTSC playback on PAL TV. This is either
behind a flap or on the back of the machine.
Identifying which ones do stereo is usually pretty easy as they tend
to say "STEREO" on the front (in English too handily). Sometimes this
will be "GERMAN STEREO" which means it won't pick up NICAM stereo
transmissions but will still play/record in hi-fi stereo.
Stephen Harris
<934058064.22860.6...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>
>NTSC playback on PAL TV is a different monster all together. You
>can't record it (unless you got some really impressive gear)
Or your lucky enough to have a VCR that thinks NTSC playback on
PAL TV is NTSC 4.43 and records as NTSC. The only quality
difference I noticed from true NTSC source was the slightly faded
reds you get with PAL 60.
Stephen Harris - 9:00-5:30, Monday-Friday Only User
s...@plasticdatacard.demon.co.uk
"Could it be I'm unarmed?" - Natsuki Sasahara
Stephen Harris
>In article <934058064.22860.6...@news.demon.co.uk>, Stuart
>Dawson <stu...@jingoro.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>multi-standard PAL VCRs with NTSC 3.58 output are going to be quite
>difficult to track down in UK outlets. The models that look tasty are
>probably intended for the European market. However, on the off chance
>that anyone actually has info of any of the following VCRs or know where
>I might purchase them, here are the units:
>
>Sharp VC-MH71R or a MH83
>Philips VR 756
>Thomson VPH 6880 or 6990
>
>I'd quite like another Thomson, they're so cool (French, I think).
>
>I'll check out my local retailers and maybe have a look around central
>London next time I go down there; scour some magazines too.
>
multi-system, if they are like models they replace, you can make
NTSC copies from PAL 60. ^_^
You won't get Scart sockets on non european equipment and if
you do get and import machine, make sure thay give you a UK
power lead, they are legally obligated to.
Stephen Harris
Wednesday
Stephen Harris <s...@plasticdatacard.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I would also suggest the Sony SLV ED1 - ED8 range for a full
>multi-system, if they are like models they replace, you can make
>NTSC copies from PAL 60. ^_^
Haven't tried it with our ED6, though I suppose I could for
reference purposes -- we quite like the ED6, BTW. :)
--
w :::::::: >> hentaiFREEfreeUK: www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~wednsday/hff/
Inu Yasha
<s...@plasticdatacard.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>><looks at 3 month old Lektropacks MCV-1>
>>I don't think that's entirely true. Even my Toshiba claims to be able
>>to output a pure NTSC signal, and the MCV-1 will convert anything to
>>anything, and it's made by a british company (even if it doesn't come
>>with a british plug).
>>
>Does that include PAL 60 input?
I have one and no it doesnt.
I'm pretty pissed off as I explicitly stated that I wanted to record a
PAL-60 input and would require equipment to do this and they said it
would..
still, apart from that little annoyance, it's a bloody good piece of
kit.
--
----------
Pika-Pika!
Inu Yasha
Dawson) wrote:
>Identifying which ones do stereo is usually pretty easy as they tend
>to say "STEREO" on the front (in English too handily). Sometimes this
>will be "GERMAN STEREO" which means it won't pick up NICAM stereo
>transmissions but will still play/record in hi-fi stereo.
but be wary of the ones that can only handle stereo from a PAL tape,
not an NTSC tape. Generally the shop staff at normal shops wouldn't
have a clue. I'd just get a tape with obvious stereo effects and test
it in the shop.
--
----------
Pika-Pika!
Stephen Harris
>In article <934216454.28385.5...@news.demon.co.uk>,
>Stephen Harris <s...@plasticdatacard.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>I would also suggest the Sony SLV ED1 - ED8 range for a full
>>multi-system, if they are like models they replace, you can make
>>NTSC copies from PAL 60. ^_^
>Haven't tried it with our ED6, though I suppose I could for
>reference purposes -- we quite like the ED6, BTW. :)
That would be useful.
Stuart Dawson
>but be wary of the ones that can only handle stereo from a PAL tape,
>not an NTSC tape. Generally the shop staff at normal shops wouldn't
>have a clue. I'd just get a tape with obvious stereo effects and test
>it in the shop.
It could be even easier than that. Tell them to get the manual out
and read the guff at the back. Chances are they'll be happier letting
you do that than getting the entire machine out and wiring it up.
Inu Yasha
Dawson) wrote:
>Inu_...@tomobiki.jpcinetNOPSAM.co.uk (Inu Yasha) wrote:
>
>>but be wary of the ones that can only handle stereo from a PAL tape,
>>not an NTSC tape. Generally the shop staff at normal shops wouldn't
>>have a clue. I'd just get a tape with obvious stereo effects and test
>>it in the shop.
>
>It could be even easier than that. Tell them to get the manual out
>and read the guff at the back. Chances are they'll be happier letting
>you do that than getting the entire machine out and wiring it up.
half the time the specs at the back don't say, I've found.
Then again, all the tv/video shops round mine generally have all the
models on display and wired up already. all they have to do is flick a
switch and it's connected to a crappy 14" portable that's somewhere
near the videos.
Dixons and Currys are exceptions to this but IMHO you'd have to be an
idiot to shop there anyway.
--
----------
Pika-Pika!
Peter Boulter
> I have one and no it doesnt.
> I'm pretty pissed off as I explicitly stated that I wanted to
> record a PAL-60 input and would require equipment to do this
> and they said it would..
I think you have a good case to return it under the sale of goods
act. You explicitly stated that the VCR must record PAL-60 and they
said it would, but it doesn't. Therefore it seems to me that the
equipment is not suitable for the purpose for which it was sold so
you can return it under the said act.
The trading standards people are often interested in such
mis-representations as well.
== Peter ==
------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.compulink.co.uk/~dragon/shr/
------------------------------------------------------------
- Macross - 3x3 Eyes - Gunbuster - Patlabor -
Inu Yasha
Boulter) wrote:
>Inu Yasha(Inu_...@tomobiki.jpcinetNOPSAM.co.uk) added:
>
>> I have one and no it doesnt.
>> I'm pretty pissed off as I explicitly stated that I wanted to
>> record a PAL-60 input and would require equipment to do this
>> and they said it would..
>
>I think you have a good case to return it under the sale of goods
>act. You explicitly stated that the VCR must record PAL-60 and they
>said it would, but it doesn't. Therefore it seems to me that the
>equipment is not suitable for the purpose for which it was sold so
>you can return it under the said act.
If I can prove that I asked that question.
The problem will go away fairly soon as I'm getting an NTSC genlock :)
>The trading standards people are often interested in such
>mis-representations as well.
not forgetting that it didn't have a proper plug fitted :)
--
----------
Pika-Pika!
Nyk Tarr
Christopher K Jackman wrote:
> Hi folks,
> My old Philips VCR seems to be about to kick the bucket.
> So, now I'm looking for a new VCR and hope those of you here with multi-
> standard VCRs may be able to recommend a make or model.
> It needs to be NICAM PAL with 2 SCARTS and have true NTSC tape playback,
> not just NTSC on PAL TV.
Thomson VPH6990 £300 is probably the cheapest. Anything else at this
price braket and you're on Tottenham Court Road (or Edgeware Road)
scouting through the grey imports section.
The Samsung SWV4000 (or whatever) and that one from Lektropacks do
ntsc->pal conversion, but cost more.
> Please could someone tell me if NTSC on PAL is known as NTSC 4.43, and
> pure NTSC would be NTSC 3.53? (I may have the numbers wrong).
Somebody should have a faq for this, I hope.
Tanaka
--
____ _
/__ _]| http://www.tomobiki.demon.co.uk
/ \/ |_ | Team AMIGA
/ /\ _)| Fancy Lala+Cowboy Bebop: who could want for more?
See that LCD game, That's your VGA monitor that is
Peter Boulter
> If I can prove that I asked that question.
Yes, that's the problem isn't it. The salesoid is almost certain to
claim you didn't, knowing it's your word against his. As someone
who works on the 'other side' of the counter, but in a different
business, I've become very suspicious of any 'wrong item'
complaints. This is because in most cases it's the customer trying
to cover-up their own errors on the order form.
Stuart Dawson
>>I think you have a good case to return it under the sale of goods
>>act. You explicitly stated that the VCR must record PAL-60 and they
>>said it would, but it doesn't. Therefore it seems to me that the
>>equipment is not suitable for the purpose for which it was sold so
>>you can return it under the said act.
>If I can prove that I asked that question.
Getting back to the shop quickly helps in a way. First VCR I bought,
I specifically requested that it was able to play long play recorded
tapes. When I got the one I bought home I found it wouldn't. I went
back to the shop on the same day and graabed the fool that sold me the
thing. They were only too happy to exchange it for a different model.
In my experience they _want_ to sell you something, so as long as they
think you're not full of s***e they'll help you.
Inu Yasha
Dawson) wrote:
>Inu_...@tomobiki.jpcinetNOPSAM.co.uk (Inu Yasha) wrote:
>
>>>I think you have a good case to return it under the sale of goods
>>>act. You explicitly stated that the VCR must record PAL-60 and they
>>>said it would, but it doesn't. Therefore it seems to me that the
>>>equipment is not suitable for the purpose for which it was sold so
>>>you can return it under the said act.
>
>>If I can prove that I asked that question.
>
>Getting back to the shop quickly helps in a way. First VCR I bought,
>I specifically requested that it was able to play long play recorded
>tapes. When I got the one I bought home I found it wouldn't. I went
>back to the shop on the same day and graabed the fool that sold me the
>thing. They were only too happy to exchange it for a different model.
>In my experience they _want_ to sell you something, so as long as they
>think you're not full of s***e they'll help you.
it was mail order and they were a bit funny with me when I phoned up
asking how to do PAL-60 -> NTSC.
--
----------
Pika-Pika!
Tom Jordaan
> Once upon a time in the land of uk.media.animation.anime,
> Christopher K Jackman wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>> My old Philips VCR seems to be about to kick the bucket.
>> So, now I'm looking for a new VCR and hope those of you here with multi-
>> standard VCRs may be able to recommend a make or model.
>> It needs to be NICAM PAL with 2 SCARTS and have true NTSC tape playback,
>> not just NTSC on PAL TV.
> Thomson VPH6990 £300 is probably the cheapest. Anything else at this
> price braket and you're on Tottenham Court Road (or Edgeware Road)
> scouting through the grey imports section.
Hitachi F86E (could be F68E...) will do NTSC 3.58/4.43 playback and
recording in stereo: £275 from Hi-Fi Sound, at the bottom end of TCR.
The cheapest I'd found that looked official was the ED6 and that was
£340.
>> Please could someone tell me if NTSC on PAL is known as NTSC 4.43, and
>> pure NTSC would be NTSC 3.53? (I may have the numbers wrong).
> Somebody should have a faq for this, I hope.
Proper NTSC is NTSC 3.58. NTSC via PAL is actually PAL 60, not NTSC 4.43.
NTSC 4.43 is Weird(TM).
Peter Boulter
> it was mail order and they were a bit funny with me when I
> phoned up asking how to do PAL-60 -> NTSC.
They either didn't know what you were talking about and didn't want
to admit it or they thought you were a bootlegger and didn't want
to get involved. Even though there are quite legitimate reasons why
you'd want to do it.
Chika
Yes. Me. Here it is.
How to play NTSC tapes in the UK
A quick FAQ
The following is Š 1999 Chris Johnson. It is free to circulate in its
entirity or brief extracts may be quoted in context
as long as the copyright holder is credited correctly.
Introduction
This was written as a result of a rash of questions about NTSC playback in
the UK. This FAQ is a rough guide; it
does not attempt to pursue the technicalities of NTSC nor its superiority
or inferiority over PAL, nor does it attempt
to make recommendations about the specific model of equipment to use. What
it does do is tell you what you need
to know to be able to go out and buy equipment that will enable you to
play NTSC videos in the UK.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Contents
* 1. Standards. Who uses what?
* 2. NTSC and PAL - Why did they do it?
* 3. Frame or scan rates. Who uses what?
* 4. So what is the problem when you try to convert?
* 5. How do I play back my US tapes?
* 6. I hear people talking about PAL60. What is that?
* 7. Does the same thing apply to Laser Disks?
* 8. What about DVD's?
* 9. How do I record an NTSC programme?
* 10. What is MacroVision?
* 11. Mono? Stereo? What's the problem?
* 12. Where do I buy this kit?
* 13. I have bought my kit, now how do I get the videos?
* 14. Something has gone wrong with this tape!
* 15. This is the BBFC...
* 16. How do I pay for US videos?
* 17. Spotted a fault in this faq?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Standards. Who uses what?
There are three major standards in use; NTSC, PAL and SECAM
For the purposes of this document, SECAM is not important. NTSC is used
mostly by the United States and other
areas influenced by them. PAL is used mostly in Europe and other places
influenced by them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2. NTSC and PAL - Why did they do it?
or Why did we use PAL when the US didn't?
It should be realised that NTSC was created first. That is a fact of life.
It should also be realised that NTSC had
problems that PAL was supposed to correct. In the intevening years, these
problems have been solved by various
related technology so that you would probably never know the difference if
you were to watch one alongside the
other. However it was for that reason that the Germans created, and we
adopted, PAL as our colour standard.
Once in place, a standard is extremely hard to change, not to mention
costly, therefore it remains a problem. It
should be noted that other countries also suffer this problem, some using
NTSC such as Japan, others using PAL
such as Australia, then there is SECAM which originated in France which,
though essentially just a perverted PAL,
is just different enough to cause more problems!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Frame or scan rates. Who uses what?
The scan rate is often tied to the AC power frequency, though obviously
the advent of microprocessor control
means that this is not as important as it used to be. In the UK and a fair
chunk of Europe, that frequency is 50Hz,
while in the US, it is 60Hz (Hz means "Hertz" or cycles per second). There
is a formula which is then used to work
out the optimum number of lines per frame. I shall not bore you with it
here, but as you could probably guess, this
means that there is a difference between UK and US frame sizes. In fact
the US uses 525 lines per frame, while
the UK (again in line with a fair chunk of Europe) uses 625. (It should be
noted that neither the UK nor the US
necessarily broadcast on every single line, but for the purposes of the
discussion we should ignore any drift in that
direction).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
4. So what is the problem when you try to convert?>
Converting between NTSC and PAL is laughably easy nowadays. It is just a
matter of taking the input signal
through what is usually a very small componant set and outputting the PAL
equivalent. That can be done in real
time with no other effort. That is NOT the problem. What IS the problem is
the scan rate (see 3). Try to play back a
US scan rate on a UK set, even if you have changed the colour standard,
and you will get some strange results!
Essentially this is because it just does not fit! The flyback is in the
wrong position each time, the number of lines
are wrong; the usual effect is that the picture fades and curls back on
itself (at least in my experience it does!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
5. How do I play back my US tapes?
VHS tapes are recorded as an analogue representation of the signal that
you would expect to see on the TV. In
other words, if it was recorded in NTSC 525/60 then that is how it will
play back. Therefore you need to intercept
that signal somehow. There are three ways of doing this:
* (a) Get an NTSC TV and NTSC VHS system
Obviously this gives the best performance of the lot, but can be
expensive and is no use whatsoever if
you want to use it as normal PAL kit. Multi- standard TV's do exist,
however, which can bring this cost
down a bit over running two entirely different sets of equipment.
* (b) Get a converting video system
This will normally use a frame store (an area of memory, similar to
that used by computers, into which
frames can be stored in a format that can be used to reconstruct a
PAL 625/50 picture) to produce a
picture on a normal PAL TV. The down sides of this are that the
result often looks jerky and rough, mostly
due to the inherant deficiencies of VHS in general, and that there
aren't that many videos that can do this.
* (c) Get an NTSC playback video and a variable scan rate TV
This might sound daunting but is perfectly possible. In fact you may
already have the equipment to hand!
What happens is that the tape signal is changed from NTSC to PAL but
is left at 525/60. The video tells
the TV that this has happened and the TV changes its own screen to
suit. However you MUST check that
your TV can do this (if in doubt, go ask your dealer).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
6. I hear people talking about PAL60. What is that?
PAL60 is the term used by some to describe a tape signal that has been
converted from NTSC to PAL but has not
been changed from the US frame standard of 525 lines at 60Hz, hence PAL60.
The UK standard signal is often
referred to by these same folk as PAL50. See 5(c).
----------------------------------------------------------------------
7. Does the same thing apply to Laser Disks?
Mostly yes. You should consult your dealer or instruction manual for
details of how (and if) you can adapt your
player to play back US disks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
8. What about DVD's?
The DVD is a new technology which is totally digital in nature. The signal
that is recorded on it is totally digital and
does not become encoded for PAL or NTSC until the modulation stage of the
player (depending on whether this is
a stand alone player, where the modulator sits in the box or a DVD ROM
drive where the modulation depends
heavily on the video system or card used by the host machine). The
difference for DVD's comes in the form of
region locks, which are an arbitrary locking mechanism put on the disk at
manufacture which stop the disk being
played outside the region(s) that it is meant for. For more details on
DVD's you should consult the DVD FAQ.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
9. How do I record an NTSC programme?
WARNING!!! The recording or copying of media off or on air may contravene
the relevant Copyright laws of your
country. You should only copy if you have the express permission of the
copyright owner, or that you are working
in line with any and all copy laws in your country concerning private
copying. (In other words, though I write this bit
below, if you do it and break the law, on your own head be it! I warned
you!)
The copying of tapes will always lead to a copy of inferior quality due to
losses caused by cables and by
mismatches in timing between video systems. You can minimise this by
obtaining the relevant equipment for
timing correction and properly shielded cables from any video specialist.
Copying tapes from an NTSC source can be done in three ways:
* (a) NTSC to NTSC
Expensive, but neatest solution. The copy you get is NTSC. Obviously
you need two NTSC videos for
this.
* (b) NTSC to PAL60
Some videos actually allow the recording and playback of PAL60,
though it is not an official standard.
Other machines will spit out PAL60 recordings, therefore it is best
to check to see what your machines
are capable of.
* (c) NTSC to PAL50
The panacea for pirates! For this you will need a target recorder
(anything within reason will do) and a full
conversion system (either LD, DVD or a full converting video system
(see 5(b))). Note that DVD's have
the ability to insert a new Macrovision anti-pirate system into them
at manufacture, so check. Video to
video copying can be a bit hit and miss as the jerky quality of
PAL50 conversion tends to be emphasized
on a copy. I repeat here, just in case you missed the above warning;
Copying any programme can be
illegal! You do it at your own risk (which could be risk of fines,
imprisonment, confiscation and so forth,
depending on your country's current laws.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
10. What is MacroVision?
MacroVision is a trademark of a company and its anti-pirating dongles. It
is used on tapes and so forth in a way
that is supposed to defeat the copying of tapes by a special signal which
causes the target video to scramble itself,
rendering the resulting tape unwatchable while allowing the watching of
the original tape with no noticeable
problems.
However it doesn't always work. In some applications it causes effects on
the original that can make it difficult to
watch, plus of course those that have to watch through two videos or
something similar like that end up wishing
they had never bought the tapes! It also has no effect on video recorders
over a certain age, and there are
"bugblasters" available that can get around the effects (the "bugblaster"
was originally invented as a cleanup tool
for people copying their home recordings from specialised video camera
tape stock to VHS, but it wasn't long
before someone spotted the potential! Nowadays, bugblasters can only be
bought via mail order, so don't ask for
them in your local high street shop!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
11. Mono? Stereo? What's the problem?
This relates to the ability of any given video to play back the sound
track in stereo or mono. Many videos will use a
sound head that picks the sound up from the video record; this has been
developed for some time as a
replacement for the originally designed audio linear track on the tape
which used to suffer from timing trouble as
the tape grew older, and also reduces flutter compared with the linear
track.
However the linear track is maintained for one reason: not all videos can
read their sound back in that way. This
provides a cheap get out for some video manufacturers who then stick a
fixed head for audio in the system thus
saving dosh on the extra gubbins in the video head. This applies a lot in
NTSC playback videos, though if you are
careful you can find the right models.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
12. Where do I buy this kit?
My first reaction would be to go and buy yourself a video guide, for
example something like What Video. In these
books you tend to find all sorts of obscure hardware as well as folk that
will sell it to you. You might even find that
your local specialist will oblige though often you will need to order
ahead and wait. The other option is to go to the
Oxford Street/Charing Cross Road end of Tottenham Court Road in London. A
small ghetto of video and television
outlets has sprung up there over the years specialising in higher quality
and obscure hardware, and most are
helpful and will bend over backwards for a sale! Be sure about what you
want and how much you want to pay
though. In all cases, let the buyer beware!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
13. I have bought my kit, now how do I get the videos?
That is simply a matter of knowhow. If you are on the internet, you will
find many US companies that will sell to
you. Similarly there are magazines that will also provide such information
(a good source, for example, would be
Animerica). There are companies in the UK that also sell US titles, such
as Otaku, and there is a small second
hand market as well if you keep your eyes open. The various fan
conventions (Minami, Ayacon, Not-Shinnenkai)
also sometimes have stock for sale. You are spoilt for choice really, if
you are prepared to put the time in.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
14. Something has gone wrong with this tape!
Return it to the supplier. If the supplier has a procedure for returns,
such as a phone number that you need to ring
to get a return number, do it! Be prepared to bear costs if it turns out
that your player is at fault. Obviously the
sales of goods from outside the UK are subject to laws covering sales of
goods in those countries.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
15. This is the BBFC...
All video output is governed by law in the UK which states that videos may
not be redistributed without a certificate
granted by the British Board of Film Control (in other words, those odd
symbols with U, PG, 12, 15 or 18 on them).
It is therefore unlawful to import videos for the purpose of retailing
those videos.
It is, however, perfectly legal to import videos for personal use,
providing that the content does not contravene the
current pornography laws. In other words, if you decide to import hentai,
keep everything crossed! It can be
confiscated by Customs if they decide that the video is pornographic to
the extent that it breaks the law, and there
is no compensation!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
16. How do I pay for US videos?
If you are buying from someone like Otaku, then don't worry.
If you are buying from the US, however, then you must remember one thing.
The US folk, they don't go a bundle
on no sterling stuff! So it has to be dollars cash, on the nose. You have
a couple of ways around it.
* (a) See your bank about arranging a foreign currency cheque.
They will usually charge an arm and a leg for it, but the result is
that you will be left with a cheque drawn
against an American bank for the amount that you need.
* (b) Don't forget your flexible friend.
Access (MasterCard), AmEx and Visa are all capable of foreign
transactions. All you do is give them your
number, expiry date and card name, just as you would in this
country, then the banks sort out the
conversion for you.
I have also heard of folk using travellers' cheques, but I couldn't
comment on it.
<TOP>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
17. Spotted a fault in this faq?
If you spotted anything that I missed, or think that there is something
that could be added, please email me at
mad...@argonet.co.uk and let me know. Don't email me just to yell at me or
praise me on my efforts; that sort of
thing is better done on the uk anime forum on Usenet,
uk.media.animation.anime
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a textual representation of a web page which, if you want to see
it in all its infamy, can be seen at
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/lurker/ntsc_faq.html
--
------ ------- _____ | Chika (irc #anime) - madoka*argonet.co.uk
|--+-| --|-|-- | | | ---\ \ The Lurkers' Retreat / CrashnetUK / CAPOW
|\ | | | | | | |---| | | \ http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka
| _| | ======= | | / |
------ / | \ | ./ / ZFC A / aICQ UIN 15258170 / (*=@)
... I tried switching to gum but couldn't keep it lit
Stephen Harris
>Hitachi F86E (could be F68E...) will do NTSC 3.58/4.43 playback and
>recording in stereo: £275 from Hi-Fi Sound, at the bottom end of TCR.
>The cheapest I'd found that looked official was the ED6 and that was
>£340.
>
AFAIK all the ED range are grey imports.
Inu Yasha
wrote:
<SNIP>
>8. What about DVD's?
>
>The DVD is a new technology which is totally digital in nature. The signal
>that is recorded on it is totally digital and
>does not become encoded for PAL or NTSC until the modulation stage of the
>player (depending on whether this is
>a stand alone player, where the modulator sits in the box or a DVD ROM
>drive where the modulation depends
>heavily on the video system or card used by the host machine). The
<SNIP>
don't forget that frame and scan rate is still a problem with DVD
though.
--
----------
Pika-Pika!
Inu Yasha
Boulter) wrote:
>Inu Yasha(Inu_...@tomobiki.jpcinetNOPSAM.co.uk) added:
>
>> it was mail order and they were a bit funny with me when I
>> phoned up asking how to do PAL-60 -> NTSC.
>
>They either didn't know what you were talking about and didn't want
>to admit it or they thought you were a bootlegger and didn't want
>to get involved. Even though there are quite legitimate reasons why
>you'd want to do it.
I told them that I was trying to record the output of an Amiga genlock
that was only capable of PAL and PAL-60, as I did on my original
e-mail to them. I never said what I wanted it for.
--
----------
Pika-Pika!
Ronny Salomonsen
So, what do you need to do it the other way around? I've got a PAL TV, and a
PAL (I think it is NTSC too) VCR.. what do I need to be able to watch NTSC
movies? I'm interested in a cheap way to do it, with good play-back quality.
---
Ronny Salomonsen <rsal...@online.no>
Chika
Inu Yasha <Inu_...@tomobiki.jpcinetNOPSAM.co.uk> wrote:
> don't forget that frame and scan rate is still a problem with DVD
> though.
I hadn't forgotten it, but basically decided to leave most of the detail
to a DVD FAQ instead (ISTR I was considering writing one of those but
there are a few knocking about already so i didn't bother.) Indeed frame
and scan rate are the tip of the iceberg; you then get into anamorphic
DVDs and so on which are far beyond the scope of a VHS FAQ like this one.
--
______
| /\ | Chika (irc #anime) - madoka*argonet.co.uk (*=@)
| //\\ | The Lurkers' Retreat / CrashnetUK / CAPOW
|_/__\_| http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/ ZFC A aICQ UIN 15258170
... As easy as 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716...
Chika
> So, what do you need to do it the other way around? I've got a PAL TV, and a
> PAL (I think it is NTSC too) VCR.. what do I need to be able to watch NTSC
> movies? I'm interested in a cheap way to do it, with good play-back quality.
The reason most PAL users want to watch NTSC output is because of America.
Since the US tends to get/produce movies and such and tend to distribute
this material outside the US only after it has been done to death in its
own country (this can take between six months and a couple of years), some
folk prefer to import so they get to see an item earlier. Anime viewers
add anyther dynamic in that US sourced anime has a larger range of titles
than the UK, and much more choice when it comes to subbed anime, something
which is important to some anime fans. It is also the case that anime fans
who are fluent in the language are also able to import directly from
Japan, who also use the NTSC colour system, a little gift from Uncle Sam.
Finally there is the question of censorship. The US has no direct
censorship law; it is specifically banned from having censorship laws by
its own constitution. Most European countries, especially the UK, tend to
have a degree of censorship. Therefore to get uncut versions of anime, it
is often better to import.
If you are interested in a cheap way of viewing NTSC, then I would
probably point you at the third option in section 5 of my FAQ. Chances are
that you may have all or at least some of what you need to playback NTSC.
If the video recorder can play NTSC back, then all you need to find out is
if your TV can vary its frame. If it has a SCART socket, then there is a
possibility that it may do, but your local dealer or the manufacturer
should be able to tell you for sure.
Or post the make and model number here! Someone may know the model and be
able to tell you... :)
--
______
| /\ | Chika (irc #anime) - madoka*argonet.co.uk (*=@)
| //\\ | The Lurkers' Retreat / CrashnetUK / CAPOW
|_/__\_| http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/ ZFC A aICQ UIN 15258170
... See that LCD game, That's your VGA monitor that is
Peter Boulter
> I told them that I was trying to record the output of an Amiga
> genlock that was only capable of PAL and PAL-60, as I did on my
> original e-mail to them. I never said what I wanted it for.
In which case we're left with option 1. They didn't understand what
you were talking about and didn't want to admit it.
Chika
> > I told them that I was trying to record the output of an Amiga
> > genlock that was only capable of PAL and PAL-60, as I did on my
> > original e-mail to them. I never said what I wanted it for.
> In which case we're left with option 1. They didn't understand what
> you were talking about and didn't want to admit it.
Shopping for hardware, rule no. 1: A salesman is often what he appears to
be.
--
______
| /\ | Chika (irc #anime) - madoka*argonet.co.uk (*=@)
| //\\ | The Lurkers' Retreat / CrashnetUK / CAPOW
|_/__\_| http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/ ZFC A aICQ UIN 15258170
... "Bother", said Pooh, as received his telephone bill