Dule what does it mean?
Dave Fawthrop
gloss the poems to make them understandable to modern Yorkshiremen.
We are stuck for a translation of the word "Dule" as in
"Ivery man for hissen," shoo said,
"An' t' dule can catch what he can;
Labour's cheap an' trade's worth more
Nor t' life of a workin' man."
which appears in "The New Englishman" on
http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/songs/ and
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/
--
Dave Fawthrop <da...@hyphenologist.co.uk>
Born in Hull, Live in Halifax, .......
Inevitable after posting questions on uly :-)
Colin Blackburn
<8p8ebm$1v$1...@plutonium.compulink.co.uk>, Dave Fawthrop wrote:
> As part of our etexting of Songs of the Ridings by FWM we are trying to
> gloss the poems to make them understandable to modern Yorkshiremen.
>
> We are stuck for a translation of the word "Dule" as in
>
> "Ivery man for hissen," shoo said,
> "An' t' dule can catch what he can;
> Labour's cheap an' trade's worth more
> Nor t' life of a workin' man."
>
Devil?
Colin
--
uly: '61 M Y* L- U- B(-) KQ+ C c P00F p>+ ?Sh R(OX2) N(HD3) Prat3
Advertising slogans at holiday resorts 2.
"London, Paris, Jaywick"
Curtain shop in Jaywick, nr Clacton.
Alan Jones
"Dave Fawthrop" <hyp...@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8p8ebm$1v$1...@plutonium.compulink.co.uk...
| As part of our etexting of Songs of the Ridings by FWM we are trying
to
| gloss the poems to make them understandable to modern Yorkshiremen.
|
| We are stuck for a translation of the word "Dule" as in
|
| "Ivery man for hissen," shoo said,
| "An' t' dule can catch what he can;
| Labour's cheap an' trade's worth more
| Nor t' life of a workin' man."
OED shows "dule" as a dialectal form of "devil". Looking at another of
your queries, I think "enow" is best regarded as "enough"=in plenty;
all the locals are going to church, including plenty of ploughboys.
These really aren't very tricky questions, and OED would answer most of
them instantly, especially if one of you is used to reading older
literature in non-dialectal English.
Alan Jones
Ceri
I concur
In article <B8Pt5.9669$yG4.8...@news1.cableinet.net>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Matti Lamprhey
> <8p8ebm$1v$1...@plutonium.compulink.co.uk>, Dave Fawthrop wrote:
> > As part of our etexting of Songs of the Ridings by FWM we are
trying to
> > gloss the poems to make them understandable to modern
Yorkshiremen.
> >
> > We are stuck for a translation of the word "Dule" as in
> >
> > "Ivery man for hissen," shoo said,
> > "An' t' dule can catch what he can;
> > Labour's cheap an' trade's worth more
> > Nor t' life of a workin' man."
> >
>
> Devil?
I agree -- I believe "the Devil can catch what he can" is akin to
"Devil take the hindmost".
Matti
David Kilpatrick
> As part of our etexting of Songs of the Ridings by FWM we are trying to
> gloss the poems to make them understandable to modern Yorkshiremen.
>
> We are stuck for a translation of the word "Dule" as in
>
> "Ivery man for hissen," shoo said,
> "An' t' dule can catch what he can;
> Labour's cheap an' trade's worth more
> Nor t' life of a workin' man."
>
>
Looks like an error for de'il - devil.
DK
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David
Alan Jones <a...@cableinet.co.uk> screeched:
[Snip]
> These really aren't very tricky questions, and OED would answer most
> of them instantly, especially if one of you is used to reading older
> literature in non-dialectal English.
Ah, you'll be knowing for a fact what hoamin' is, then...
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/zodiac/1ari-0.htm
Aries (March 21st - April 20th)
Mesha - the Ram
Anhur (Onouris)
Dave Fawthrop
I really do envy him :-))
Unfortunately I cannot afford 1800GBP for a paper copy or even 250GBP for a
CDROM version. The local Library is miles away and because of parking
restrictions, I have to dash in, change my books and dash out.
The online version is equally expensive AFAIR 300-400GBP per year.
--
Dave Fawthrop <da...@hyphenologist.co.uk>
"Alan Jones" <a...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:B8Pt5.9669$yG4.8...@news1.cableinet.net...
Steve Ashton
> > We are stuck for a translation of the word "Dule" as in
> >
> > "Ivery man for hissen," shoo said,
> > "An' t' dule can catch what he can;
> > Labour's cheap an' trade's worth more
> > Nor t' life of a workin' man."
> >
> >
> Looks like an error for de'il - devil.
>
> DK
>
No, no error, Dule is the *old* way in English. De'il is more lowland
Scots(?) or poetical.
Nor t'life means "than the".
Steve
Colin Blackburn
<B8Pt5.9669$yG4.8...@news1.cableinet.net>, Alan Jones wrote:
> Looking at another of
> your queries, I think "enow" is best regarded as "enough"=in plenty;
> all the locals are going to church, including plenty of ploughboys.
Are you sure on this one? The verse goes:
To-morn we gan to t' kirk on t' brow,
(Nesh satin shoon as white as milk)
Fisher-folk wi' me, an' ploo-lads enow,
Surely an interpretation of enow as by-and-by, presently, etc woould be
more sensible?
"The fishermen with me and the ploughboys by-and-by"
ie the ploughboys following shortly afterwards.
I don't see enough as making a lot of sense in there.
David
Alan Jones <a...@cableinet.co.uk> expounded:
I don't think they're as cut and dried as you would like to make out.
OED: Dule, var. f. DOLE sb.2 grief; Sc. f. DOOL, landmark; obs. and
dial. f. DEVIL.
DOLE takes up a page or so in its many meanings. Even sb.2 takes up
half a page.
Given that this is a poem, we might reasonably expect more be alluded
to than an obvious simple meaning; and given that it is dialect verse,
we might also expect idiosyncratic spelling and contraction or
abbreviation, and so I would not exclude the charitable meaning of
'dole' from this either. Thoughtless glossing as 'devil' without
considering other possible meanings does the poem an injustice. If you
read the poems, you will see that F. W. was really a sly old devil who
managed to slip some rather suggestive meanings into quite innocuous
lines, was not above outrageous use of his poet's licence, and was apt
to tease his reader by including words or phrases which appear to have
one meaning following the general sense but actually have an entirely
different meaning - as (unless I'm very much mistaken) in the 5th
stanza of "The Flowers of Knaresborough Forest".
"An' t' dule..." could mean "And the Devil..." but it is not impossible
for it to mean "Or the dole..." in the sense of whatever charity that
wants to can deal with the problem.
Were it a case of us reading for our pleasure and seeking help on these
"hard words", the uncertainty would be no great problem; as we are
attempting to provide a new annotation of these old poems in the desire
to help modern young folk to read and gain enjoyment from them, we
needs must explore each reasonable possibility.
"Fisher-folk wi' me, an' ploo-lads enow," is another such problem.
'Enow' has two different meanings which provide entirely different
images. The problem is compounded by the fact that the bride-to-be is a
farm lass and her intended a fisherman - so why should the
"fisher-folk" be going with her?
Would that there were 'instant answers'.
--
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Cyan Magic
Left Eye of Sin
Left Foot in the Depth of the Earth
King Queen
07:10:07 +0100:
>Many thanks to Alan for use of his access to OED.
>I really do envy him :-))
>
>Unfortunately I cannot afford 1800GBP for a paper copy or even 250GBP for a
>CDROM version. The local Library is miles away and because of parking
>restrictions, I have to dash in, change my books and dash out.
could you take the bus? <g>
--
Remove .weloveyoudrew to reply Homepage at http://come.to/king.queen
"How can we speak of the urgency of global crises without inducing either
passivity and hopelessness or unrealistic escapism?" R. R. Ruether
Ian Spencer
> Many thanks to Alan for use of his access to OED.
> I really do envy him :-))
>
> Unfortunately I cannot afford 1800GBP for a paper copy or even 250GBP for
a
> CDROM version. The local Library is miles away and because of parking
> restrictions, I have to dash in, change my books and dash out.
>
> The online version is equally expensive AFAIR 300-400GBP per year.
Dave
Could I make a suggestion as these posts are a source of irritation across
newsgroups, worthy though your task might be. Can you in the first instance
post in a single newsgroup where someone who is happy to respond with their
copy of the OED to hand? Or even establish someone who is prepared to e-mail
responses.
It seems unreasonable to ask 6 newsgroups at once for words, which although
out of common usage seem to be readily identifiable. Only when you hit a
brick wall go to the widest audience. I understand it is no more effort for
you to ask everybody straight away, but it is irritating, especially as
there are so many people willing to help<g>. As people are not aware of the
newsgroup you think of as your principle home, (follow up to is used to
indicate this) people have to reply to all groups which means these posts
have taken a disproportionate amount of space compared with their likely
interest.
As pub analogies are always popular, you are doing the equivalent of
shouting around the whole pub asking the score for the England match when
you could first go and ask the bloke sitting by the TV.
Ian
Dave Fawthrop
"Ian Spencer" <JustForN...@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:8pamf1$595$1...@sshuraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com...
I wonder what JustForN...@tesco.net is!
Some kind of pressure Group?
NetNanny?
One man Sherif? tesco.net clearly indicates a one man band.
Anyone who has studied the net would appreciate that my BI is vanishingly
small at 2.5 with a limit of 20
>
> "Dave Fawthrop" <hyp...@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:8pa3na$h48$1...@plutonium.compulink.co.uk...
> > Many thanks to Alan for use of his access to OED.
> > I really do envy him :-))
> >
> > Unfortunately I cannot afford 1800GBP for a paper copy or even 250GBP
for
> a
> > CDROM version. The local Library is miles away and because of parking
> > restrictions, I have to dash in, change my books and dash out.
> >
> > The online version is equally expensive AFAIR 300-400GBP per year.
>
> Dave
>
> Could I make a suggestion as these posts are a source of irritation across
> newsgroups, worthy though your task might be. Can you in the first
instance
> post in a single newsgroup where someone who is happy to respond with
their
> copy of the OED to hand? Or even establish someone who is prepared to
e-mail
> responses.
You will be pleased to know that we have an offer from someone who has free
use of OED online.
>
> It seems unreasonable to ask 6 newsgroups at once for words,
Perhaps you could indicate which newsgroup you are refering to.
uk.local.yorkshire my home group are very helpful, as the work is in the
Yorkshire dialect.
uk.culture.language.english have kindly mirrored my work and agreed to
mirror any improvements. They have more knowledge of English than I.
uk.music.folk show great interest, and they are forever asking if the poems
have been set to music. I live in hope of recieving a tape from someone who
has set one to music. The folk scene, one of my other interests, includes
many people expert in other dialects. FWM worked in the late 1800s and
early 1900s It is axiomatic that dialects loose words at a high rate, and
that some of the words he uses are still current in Lowland Scots and other
dialects.
alt.usage.english and alt.english.usage are probably used by the same types
as ucle, so they are probably interested
free.uk.books I can probably ditch as free.* appear to be little used
> which although
> out of common usage seem to be readily identifiable. Only when you hit a
> brick wall go to the widest audience.
We have *two* yorkshiremen, born and bred, doing the work with a total of at
least eight dictionaries including SOED, Collins, Kellett. Swedish, Danish,
Dutch, Norwegian and German. As I stated in my posts we only go to the
newsgroups when we are stumped.
> I understand it is no more effort for
> you to ask everybody straight away, but it is irritating, especially as
> there are so many people willing to help<g>. As people are not aware of
the
> newsgroup you think of as your principle home, (follow up to is used to
> indicate this) people have to reply to all groups which means these posts
> have taken a disproportionate amount of space compared with their likely
> interest.
I use OE5 and His Billness has not included Follow up to: in this
application. The problem with Follow up to: is that if I follow up to a
post and am not subscribed to the group where the following posts go, I
loose follow ups to my follow up posts. <hope that is understandable> This
may well be why it is falling out of use.
Matti Lamprhey
> [...]
> I use OE5 and His Billness has not included Follow up to: in this
> application. The problem with Follow up to: is that if I follow up
to a
> post and am not subscribed to the group where the following posts
go, I
> loose follow ups to my follow up posts. <hope that is
understandable> This
> may well be why it is falling out of use.
It's in there, Dave. When creating or editing a message, select the
"View" menu and "All headers".
Matti
Steve Ashton
> To-morn we gan to t' kirk on t' brow,
> (Nesh satin shoon as white as milk)
> Fisher-folk wi' me, an' ploo-lads enow,
>
> Surely an interpretation of enow as by-and-by, presently, etc woould be
> more sensible?
>
> "The fishermen with me and the ploughboys by-and-by"
>
> ie the ploughboys following shortly afterwards.
>
> I don't see enough as making a lot of sense in there.
In the north of England, Dule = devil and enow = enough
Steve
Julian Flood
> Would that there were 'instant answers'.
Johnny's mother she came to him, her hands in dule she wrang
Johnny for your venison to the greenwoods dinna gan', gan' gan'
To the greenwood dinna gan'.
Obvious, really. Buy 'Aleyn' by June Tabor. Be thrilled, be very thrilled.
Next!
--
Julian Flood
Life, the Universe and Climbing Plants at www.argonet.co.uk/users/julesf.
David Kilpatrick
<jul...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> , David wrote:
>> Would that there were 'instant answers'.
>
> Johnny's mother she came to him, her hands in dule she wrang
> Johnny for your venison to the greenwoods dinna gan', gan' gan'
> To the greenwood dinna gan'.
>
> Obvious, really. Buy 'Aleyn' by June Tabor. Be thrilled, be very thrilled.
>
> Next!
There dule in the kitchen, there's mirth in the ha' -
But the devil is nowhere to be seen in either of these.
Dule and wae tae the order sent oor lads tae the Border
Or here...
I like these old words. Dule and sorrow! Especially like
Waly, waly on the bank
I often do things waly. It took me YEARS to find out that this word means
Woefully, woefully on the bank
from the Scots 'wae' for woe
and the Scots economy with the construction of words!
David
David
David Kilpatrick <da...@maxwellplace.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <na.52f29a49fa...@argonet.co.uk> , Julian Flood
> <jul...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > , David wrote:
> >> Would that there were 'instant answers'.
> >
> > Johnny's mother she came to him, her hands in dule she wrang
> > Johnny for your venison to the greenwoods dinna gan', gan' gan'
> > To the greenwood dinna gan'.
> >
> > Obvious, really. Buy 'Aleyn' by June Tabor. Be thrilled, be very
> > thrilled.
I would be but...
> >
> > Next!
> There dule in the kitchen, there's mirth in the ha' -
> But the devil is nowhere to be seen in either of these.
> Dule and wae tae the order sent oor lads tae the Border
> Or here...
...waly, waly (wae and thrice wae!), they don't make sense in Moorman's
line.
I'm currently leaning to something like:
Dule : probably devil; Moorman's use of this rare form suggests
allusion to its other meaning of dole, charity received by the more
fortunate.
> I like these old words. Dule and sorrow! Especially like
> Waly, waly on the bank
> I often do things waly. It took me YEARS to find out that this word
> means
> Woefully, woefully on the bank
> from the Scots 'wae' for woe
> and the Scots economy with the construction of words!
> David
Bit like the newsgroup economy with names :-)
David
P.S. Anyone offer help with "bettermy bodies"?
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/zodiac/acap-0.htm
Capricorn (December 22nd - January 20th)
Images, Associations, Qualities, Careers, Health
Ian Spencer
>
> I wonder what JustForN...@tesco.net is!
> Some kind of pressure Group?
> NetNanny?
> One man Sherif? tesco.net clearly indicates a one man band.
It is purely a disposable e-mail address so that anyone who is not so web
wise as to know how to hack around e-mail addresses can reply to me without
having my clearly not one man band e-mail address spammed.
Net Nanny, perhaps. Basically, uk.music.folk has a fairly low level of
postings and these dictionary lookups are a substantial proportion of the
posts.
>
> You will be pleased to know that we have an offer from someone who has
free
> use of OED online.
That's great.
> mirror any improvements. They have more knowledge of English than I.
> uk.music.folk show great interest, and they are forever asking if the
poems
> have been set to music.
Fine. Please note it is not the poems I was irritated by, and indeed there
is an interest in old English words, but strictly speaking these word search
posts are off-topic for folk _music_ (if you are going to invoke "The Rules"
with this BI stuff)...
> Anyone who has studied the net would appreciate that my BI is vanishingly
> small at 2.5 with a limit of 20
Intriguing insinuation that to offer comment on content a user needs to in
someway be qualified and I might not meet this level. I won't go there...
I'm slightly irked by your response because I nearly put at the top "This is
not a flame" but I thought my post was written in a level enough way to be
taken as a polite suggestion. I didn't say "don't post, die you spammer, U
SUCK", in so many words I said you are posting a lot of requests for words
which I cannot see the interest for most readers of the group I am watching,
please be aware of this.
The Net Nanny in me felt I needed to say something because in a low usage
newsgroup it is very easy to accidentally change the flavour of the
newsgroup. Why bother to read uk.music.folk if it's content is Yorkshire
dialect poems? If anyone wants to read about topics of language they should
be encouraged to follow the correct newsgroups rather than make all
newsgroups carry the same content. The Net Nanny in me recalled that you
were fairly dismissive of someone else who felt you were swamping the group
with poems. It is not that it is right or wrong, but newsgroups do rely on a
consensus, and if it is wrong to complain how can you know that you are
causing a nuisance, even if only a small one.
In summary, some cross-firtilisation is stimulating and interesting. My
simple point is that IMNSHO dictionary look-ups are not ;)
Ian
bogus address
> There dule in the kitchen, there's mirth in the ha' -
> But the devil is nowhere to be seen in either of these.
Yep, this is a different sense. But there's one use of the word
which seems unresolvably ambiguous between the two: in Scotland,
before the abolition of heritable jurisdictions in 1764, local
landowners had the right to try criminal cases, even capital ones.
Some of them reserved particular trees for hanging people from,
and these were called "dule trees". Equally devilish and dismal.
========> Email to "jc" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce. <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
Roy Denton
David <da...@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:49fb007...@dacha.freeuk.com...
> Begin - at the beginning...
Snipped loads
>
> P.S. Anyone offer help with "bettermy bodies"?
>
>
> --
> http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/zodiac/acap-0.htm
> Capricorn (December 22nd - January 20th)
> Images, Associations, Qualities, Careers, Health
From glossary in
Yorkshire Wit, Character, Folklore & Customs
by Richard Blakeborough
first published 1898
republished by EP Publishing Ltd 1973
Bettermy, adj. 1. Used to denote those in a higher position.
2. Polished/
Ex. - 1. T' bettermy fau'k 'ez their ways, an' wa' 'ev oors;
bud when onny on 'em cums inti mah cottage, Ah awlus
puts on mah bettermy manners, an' Ah can scrape mah
tongue an' knack a bit wi t' best on 'em.
Roy Denton
Holmfirth
David
Roy Denton <rod...@globalnet.co.uk> gasped:
> David <da...@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote in message
> news:49fb007...@dacha.freeuk.com...
> > P.S. Anyone offer help with "bettermy bodies"?
> From glossary in
> Yorkshire Wit, Character, Folklore & Customs
> by Richard Blakeborough
> first published 1898
> republished by EP Publishing Ltd 1973
> Bettermy, adj. 1. Used to denote those in a higher position.
> 2. Polished/
> Ex. - 1. T' bettermy fau'k 'ez their ways, an' wa' 'ev oors;
> bud when onny on 'em cums inti mah cottage, Ah awlus
> puts on mah bettermy manners, an' Ah can scrape mah
> tongue an' knack a bit wi t' best on 'em.
Thanks, Roy.
We have it provisionally glossed as "(meaning uncertain; perhaps self
interested politicians)" but this gives us more substance to play with.
It sounds very much as though the origin is to be found in some phrase
such as "...to better myself".
--
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Pisces (February 20th - March 20th)
Roy Denton
I've been looking at your reply to my response to your request for info, and
I'm a bit perplexed by the introductory phrase that, "Rising almost to the
surface..." I "gasped", which felt a bit like a slap in the face.
I don't want to feel paranoid (yet) and wonder just what in my message gave
rise to it. I've taken a couple of days to avoid a kneejerk, and to check
the tone of responders in other messages, all of whom stick to "in message
xxxx wrote", or similar.
My message was (I think) a) factual, b) succinct, and c) offered a reference
text I had not seen mentioned here before, which I thought you may like to
follow up.
Maybe you would have liked some personal opinion? I find surmise to be
dangerous and misleading stuff, but rather than your "...to better myself",
it might fit more with the Yorkshire persona to think along the lines of
"bettermy bodies? . . . . Bettermy arse!".
Enoo o' this lowsing tahm
An' makin' a lurdy an' a lubbart o' missen
Roy Denton
David <da...@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:49fbfdd...@dacha.freeuk.com...
Colin Blackburn
Roy Denton wrote:
> David
>
> I've been looking at your reply to my response to your request for info, and
> I'm a bit perplexed by the introductory phrase that, "Rising almost to the
> surface..." I "gasped", which felt a bit like a slap in the face.
>
> I don't want to feel paranoid (yet) and wonder just what in my message gave
> rise to it. I've taken a couple of days to avoid a kneejerk, and to check
> the tone of responders in other messages, all of whom stick to "in message
> xxxx wrote", or similar.
Roy,
don't worry about it. David always has some line at that point in his
posts; it now seems to change randomly though it just used to change
from time to time, but it is never personally applied to just one post.
David
Roy Denton <rod...@globalnet.co.uk> cried:
> David
> I've been looking at your reply to my response to your request for
> info, and I'm a bit perplexed by the introductory phrase that,
> "Rising almost to the surface..." I "gasped", which felt a bit
> like a slap in the face.
Roy
I see that Colin leaped to my defence before I happened up your post.
I'm sorry that you failed to see the humour - but then that would only
come across on reading the different beginnings on several of my posts.
Perhaps I should put a smiley at some point in the line. No... I think
an entire legally phrased paragraph disclaiming any personally intended
meaning would be much better.
> I don't want to feel paranoid (yet) and wonder just what in my
> message gave rise to it. I've taken a couple of days to avoid a
> kneejerk, and to check the tone of responders in other messages, all
> of whom stick to "in message xxxx wrote", or similar.
Nothing in your message. The little proggy I wrote to insert a random
introductory line is too lazy to read the actual posts. Any degree of
suitability or aptness is entirely fortuitous.
You may have been fortunate in your choice of newsgroups. I have seen
things written in these attribution lines that would make even a rabid
chimpanzee flinch.
> My message was (I think) a) factual, b) succinct, and c) offered a
> reference text I had not seen mentioned here before, which I thought
> you may like to follow up.
I was exceedingly glad to read your message because not only did it
provide a reference and a source other than FW's Songs for the term but
also clarified the meaning.
> Maybe you would have liked some personal opinion? I find surmise to
> be dangerous and misleading stuff, but rather than your "...to better
> myself", it might fit more with the Yorkshire persona to think along
> the lines of "bettermy bodies? . . . . Bettermy arse!".
Ah, but doesn't that suppose the existence of the term "bettermy
bodies" in the first place?
In the end, we opted for:
self important persons (sometime heard to say, "...better myself")
Without calling on the services of the woman of Endor and quizzing the
chap who coined the phrase, I doubt we can do better than surmise that
the correct explanation is something along those lines.
> Enoo o' this lowsing tahm An' makin' a lurdy an' a lubbart o' missen
Eh?
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/yds/5sb-0htm
The Yorkshire Dialect Society: Summer Bulletin
Widmerpool
news:968441886.28826.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
> In article <na.52f29a49fa...@argonet.co.uk> , Julian Flood
> <jul...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > , David wrote:
> >> Would that there were 'instant answers'.
> >
> > Johnny's mother she came to him, her hands in dule she wrang
> > Johnny for your venison to the greenwoods dinna gan', gan' gan'
> > To the greenwood dinna gan'.
> >
> > Obvious, really. Buy 'Aleyn' by June Tabor. Be thrilled, be very
thrilled.
> >
> > Next!
>
> There dule in the kitchen, there's mirth in the ha' -
>
> But the devil is nowhere to be seen in either of these.
>
> Dule and wae tae the order sent oor lads tae the Border
>
> Or here...
> I like these old words. Dule and sorrow! Especially like
> Waly, waly on the bank
> I often do things waly. It took me YEARS to find out that this word means
> Woefully, woefully on the bank
> from the Scots 'wae' for woe
> and the Scots economy with the construction of words!
> David
That's all very well, but Scots is a different language from English (very
closely related, but different) and the existence of dule=dolour in Scots is
no evidence at all for its existence in Yorkshire English.
Widmerpool
(Take the NoSpam out of my address before you reply!)
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Make a free donation of food via The Hunger Site
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Widmerpool
> Rising almost to the surface...
>
> Roy Denton <rod...@globalnet.co.uk> gasped:
>
>
> > David <da...@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote in message
> > news:49fb007...@dacha.freeuk.com...
>
> > > P.S. Anyone offer help with "bettermy bodies"?
>
> > From glossary in
>
> > Yorkshire Wit, Character, Folklore & Customs
> > by Richard Blakeborough
> > first published 1898
> > republished by EP Publishing Ltd 1973
>
> > Bettermy, adj. 1. Used to denote those in a higher position.
> > 2. Polished/
> > Ex. - 1. T' bettermy fau'k 'ez their ways, an' wa' 'ev oors;
> > bud when onny on 'em cums inti mah cottage, Ah awlus
> > puts on mah bettermy manners, an' Ah can scrape mah
> > tongue an' knack a bit wi t' best on 'em.
>
> Thanks, Roy.
>
> We have it provisionally glossed as "(meaning uncertain; perhaps self
> interested politicians)" but this gives us more substance to play with.
>
> It sounds very much as though the origin is to be found in some phrase
> such as "...to better myself".
Or "better-nor-me..."
--
bogus address
> That's all very well, but Scots is a different language from English
> (very closely related, but different) and the existence of dule=dolour
> in Scots is no evidence at all for its existence in Yorkshire English.
The word you are looking for is "isogloss". There is no sharp boundary
with all the Scots usages on one side and all the English ones on the
other: some boundaries like girl/lass are far south of the Tweed and
you only reach "guddle" north of Montrose.
BUT, the AUP Scots dictionary places the "dule" pronunciation in the
far north of Scotland, with the southern Scots one being "dil". So if
there is a common origin with the Yorkshire usage, the southern Scots
pronunciation is most likely a later innovation.
Nick-Durie
discovered this thread.
Dave Fawthrop <hyp...@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8pau6i$67m$1...@plutonium.compulink.co.uk...
Lowland Scots is not a dialect, it is a separate language closely related to
English. Lothian Scots is a dialect for example but it is a dialect of
Scots, not of English - just as Shetlandic and Orcadian are dialects of
Scots, frequently grouped together under the term "Insular Scots".
Jim Lawton
.....you've fallen into the *trap* of cross posting your reply ... not
your fault, we've all done it. Your reply is off topic for u.m.f. so
please can anyone who wants to follow this up sort out their
newsgroups line .....
and see how the poison spreads, I have to cross-post this 'cos I don't
know where you are...
cheers Jim
you need only reply to me in uk.music.folk ;0)
"Nick-Durie" <Nick-...@aladdinscave.net> wrote:
>I apologise for not picking up on this sooner but I have only just
>discovered this thread.
>
>
>Dave Fawthrop <hyp...@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:8pau6i$67m$1...@plutonium.compulink.co.uk...
Mike Swift
Du...@aladdinscave.net> writes
>Lowland Scots is not a dialect, it is a separate language closely related to
>English. Lothian Scots is a dialect for example but it is a dialect of
>Scots, not of English - just as Shetlandic and Orcadian are dialects of
>Scots, frequently grouped together under the term "Insular Scots".
Funny I would have placed Shetlandic and Orcadian nearer to the Nordic
languages than 'Scots' which I always though was Gaelic, but then I'm
just an ignorant Yorkshireman.
Mike
--
Michael Swift We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.
Kirkheaton We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.
Yorkshire Halvard Lange
'46 M Y++ L+ U KQ+ c B+ P99S p+ Sh++ S(Jordan) R(HD5)
Mentor
> Funny I would have placed Shetlandic and Orcadian nearer to the Nordic
> languages than 'Scots' which I always though was Gaelic
Fenny just gave me a delightful book on the Yorkshire dialects, and I'm now
going through it. Learned that those "nobbuts" and summats" were descendants
of Germanic roots rather than corruptions of English.
Nick-Durie
Swift's message through Mentor's.
Mentor <HRos...@PrintMusicNow.com> wrote in message
news:oy3D5.4575$mC.2...@monger.newsread.com...
> Mike Swift <mike....@yeton.demon.co.uk> wrote in message >
> > Funny I would have placed Shetlandic and Orcadian nearer to the Nordic
> > languages than 'Scots' which I always though was Gaelic
>
Shetlandic and Orcadian are dialects of Scots which contain a very high
number of Norn loanwords; Norn died out around three hundred years ago but
it estimated that upwards of 5000 words survive in the dialect, many of
which have unusual phonology and morphology for Scots. It should not be
forgotten however that all Scots dialects already have much larger numbers
of Norse loanwords than English. Words like "hoast" and "kirk" are, to many
Scots, everyday words, just as they would be to most Northern English
dialects.
> Fenny just gave me a delightful book on the Yorkshire dialects, and I'm
now
> going through it. Learned that those "nobbuts" and summats" were
descendants
> of Germanic roots rather than corruptions of English.
>
>
Corruption? How can any word be considered a corruption?
Mentor
Nick-Durie <Nick-...@aladdinscave.net> wrote in message
news:39dd0...@news2.vip.uk.com...
> Corruption? How can any word be considered a corruption?
I dunno
mikegibson
> >
>
> Corruption? How can any word be considered a corruption?
>
>
"new" labour?
mike
Bob Cunningham
<Nick-...@aladdinscave.net> said:
[ . . . ]
>Corruption? How can any word be considered a corruption?
The word "corruption" is not necessarily pejorative. Note the
following definition of "corruption" in _The New Shorter Oxford_:
7 The unconscious or accidental alteration of a word,
text, etc., in transmission; a word or passage so
altered. L15.
Nick-Durie
mikegibson <mikeg...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:7c8D5.16831$L12.3...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> snip
> > >
> >
> > Corruption? How can any word be considered a corruption?
> >
> >
>
> "new" labour?
>
It's still not a corruption of a word - regardless of the politics therein.
>
> mike
>
>
Dave Fawthrop
"Nick-Durie" <Nick-...@aladdinscave.net> wrote in message news:39dbaf57>
Lowland Scots is not a dialect, it is a separate language closely related to
> English. Lothian Scots is a dialect for example but it is a dialect of
> Scots, not of English - just as Shetlandic and Orcadian are dialects of
> Scots, frequently grouped together under the term "Insular Scots".
According to my favorite definition of the language/dialect problem.
A language is a dialect with an Army and Navy to defend it.
This saying comes from the Balkans where mutually understandable languages
come and go at great speed. In the now defunct Yugoslavia there used to be
Serbo-Croat. Now there are Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian, to name but a
few.
Unless the lowland Scots intend to do an IRA and fight for independence,
they can only speak a dialect.
--
Dave Fawthrop <hyp...@hyphenologist.co.uk> <http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk>
Computer Hyphenation Ltd, Hyphen House, 8 Cooper Grove, Halifax HX3 7RF, UK,
Tel/F/A +44(0)1274 691092. M: +44(0)7720455248, *2000 15th Anniversary Year*
Hyphenologist is sold as C source code and splits 50 languages.
Also: VDU Glasses, Wordlists FAQ, Celtic Spiral Font, Bradford Curry Project
mikegibson
Joking aside in depends on what you mean by corruption.
In the case of the Persian shaz meaning king (shaz mahkt = the king is dead
= check mate) it is also root derivative of Shah Czar Tsar Kaiser Caesar
and king even possible to trace the slang phrase to "the big cheese".
Corruption in this case has not applied to meaning but to the changes to the
root word so corruption is not being used in a pejorative sense merely
descriptive as it often is when looking at etymology.(I apologise if the
Persian is incorrectly spelt I'm doing this from memory)
Carfax, a not unsual name for houses/buildings, which have each side facing
a point of the compass, is a corruption of the french "Quatre faces ".
The most obvious every day corruption would be the days of week i.e. Monday
= moon tuesday = Tyr Wednesday = Wodin etc.
In folk Music ( he said in a desperate attempt to get back UMF stuff) the
corruption of lyrics, if you can call them that, can be seen in sea
shanties because of the mixed nationalities and opportunity for them i.e.
John Kanaka Naka In this case because of a linguistic inability to
pronounce R the Polynesian version of the chorus should be Tu Li Ay not Tu
Ri Ay as is commonly sung hence it is a corruption. I can't find my copy of
the Shanties of the Seven Seas by Stan Hugill but it is in there somewhere.
Mike
Matthew M. Huntbach
> In article <39dbaf57$1...@news2.vip.uk.com>, Nick-Durie <Nick-...@aladdinscave.net> writes
> >Lowland Scots is not a dialect, it is a separate language closely related
> >to English. Lothian Scots is a dialect for example but it is a dialect
> >of Scots, not of English - just as Shetlandic and Orcadian are dialects
> >Scots, frequently grouped together under the term "Insular Scots".
> Funny I would have placed Shetlandic and Orcadian nearer to the Nordic
> languages than 'Scots' which I always though was Gaelic, but then I'm
> just an ignorant Yorkshireman.
No, Gaelic is a completely seperate language which is not related to
English. Scots could be considered "the Scottish dialect of English",
but there is a strong opinion that it should be considered a separate
language.
In fact there is no clear distinction between a language and a dialect,
so arguments about when one becomes another are fruitless. Had the
Netherlands been absorbed into Germany rather than become a separate
country, for example, it's possible Dutch would have been considered
just an extreme form of Low German dialect rather than a separate
language. English itself, in the Middle Ages when it was an obscure
language spoken on the fringes of Europe, was referred to as "broken
German".
However, the difference between Scots and Gaelic is not like this -
languages that have become separate due to drifting apart over time.
It's rather languages from completely different origins. One originates
from the Germanic tribes that arrived in these islands in the early
mediaeval period, the other originates from the language spoken here
before that.
Matthew Huntbach
Matthew M. Huntbach
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
mikegibson (mikeg...@ntlworld.com) wrote:
>Joking aside in depends on what you mean by corruption.
>In the case of the Persian shaz meaning king (shaz mahkt = the king is dead
>= check mate) it is also root derivative of Shah Czar Tsar Kaiser Caesar
>and king even possible to trace the slang phrase to "the big cheese".
I thought that "Caesar" was originally just a Roman surname, and only
came to have a meaning "King" when members of the Caesar family took
control of the Roman empire. Thus Caesar is the root, and the others
derivatives.
Matthew Huntbach
K. Edgcombe
Matthew M. Huntbach <m...@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>No, Gaelic is a completely seperate language which is not related to
>English.
Are they not distantly related as being both Indo-European, or is this yet
another thing that has changed since I last studied the matter?
Katy
Matthew M. Huntbach
Distantly related, yes, but no more related than any other two
Indo-European languages. So, no more related than, say Polish and
Portuguese. Whereas Scots and English are more like Spanish and
Portuguese.
Matthew Huntbach
K. Edgcombe
Matthew M. Huntbach <m...@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> wrote:
>K. Edgcombe (ke...@cus.cam.ac.uk) wrote:
>> In article <8rk6mj$8el$1...@beta.qmw.ac.uk>,
>> Matthew M. Huntbach <m...@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> >No, Gaelic is a completely seperate language which is not related to
>> >English.
>
>> Are they not distantly related as being both Indo-European, or is this yet
>> another thing that has changed since I last studied the matter?
>
>Distantly related, yes, but no more related than any other two
>Indo-European languages. So, no more related than, say Polish and
>Portuguese. Whereas Scots and English are more like Spanish and
>Portuguese.
Indeed. That was what I thought I knew: but "not related" seemed to me to
verge on terminological inexactitude.
Katy
Dave Fawthrop
<<<
< snip personal >
I like the Army/Navy definition, which I think bears out my hypothesis: the
problem comes from attaching distinct meanings to the terms "language" and
"dialect".
The general assumption (as it appears to me) is that there are a load of
distinct languages. A dialect is an impure version of the true form of the
language (eg Geordie isn't proper English). People recognise a lot of
dialects in their own language, and a few in other languages (I can only
just tell the difference between a New Yorker and a Texan, and that's by
looking at the hat; Japanese has no dialects that I would recognise. I was
taught "correct" French at school, then my cousins went and spoke a
completely different version). Languages may also fall into groups (eg
Romance languages) based on a common ancestor. All very hierarchical.
However, the fact that a mode of speech can be argued to be a dialect of
more than one language (eg Lowland Scots is either English or Scots
depending on pov) suggests that it actually falls in between, and perhaps
the hierarchical distinction is arbitrary and fails to explain the position
adequately.
Languages also tend to mix themselves up - is English based on old French or
old German or what? (or Latin, according to grammar pundits of the split
infinitive variety). Which branch of the tree is it on?
My own view is that everyone speaks their own language. This is generally
similar to that of a group of other people (otherwise what is the point?),
and thus there is a tendency to group these people together as
"English-speakers" or whatever, but the grouping is arbitrary and breaks
down when you get to the edges. On this basis a dialect is just a smaller
grouping than a language.
One tends to recognise dialects of one's own language and not of others'
because one can see distinctions more clearly there, so have more possible
criteria to set up a group.
The groupings are arbitrary, however, and overlap rather than being
exclusive. There is no correct version of a language, as that suggests an
absolute standard (I shall ignore the Academie Francaise, as all
French-speakers do) - the closest one can get is the centre of the
conceptual space you are envisaging (eg most common features of members of
that group - the speech most would understand most easily).
For example, I am fairly hard to place in accent: I have been told I'm
Welsh, a Geordie, Scottish, Irish and Oxonian at various times. I put a
long "a" in master and a short one in bath. (Sorry, this is starting to
sound like "Going for Gold"). I think however that trying to place me is
pointless: it's like defining me as nice or nasty: I'm somewhere in between,
and it's subjective anyway.
Vaguely umf-related aside (sorry): I think this sort of thing about song
families as well. Is song X a version of the Gypsy Laddie or of the
Outlandish Knight? A bit of both, perhaps.
Re-reading this it seems awfully like touchy-feely new-agey relativism and
generally icky, but I don't mean it like that. I just mean the whole thing
is a mess and trying to impose order on it just causes more headaches than
it cures. Human nature to try, though.
Cheers,
Andrew
Andrew Jackson
Southampton MRD Tax
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<<<
--
Dave Fawthrop <da...@hyphenologist.co.uk>
Jim Lawton
>
snip
>
>In folk Music ( he said in a desperate attempt to get back UMF stuff) the
cripes, why bother ? I've entirely given up :0)
now as I was saying, about my car (that's ok because there's a song,
Jolly Waggoners, and a car is just a modern version of a wagon) ...
hee hee
Jim
.. noise of axe grinding ..
snip
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>
David Kilpatrick
Huntbach) wrote:
>
> Distantly related, yes, but no more related than any other two
> Indo-European languages. So, no more related than, say Polish and
> Portuguese. Whereas Scots and English are more like Spanish and
> Portuguese.
>
So is the Scots who smoke offensive cigarettes, speak unintelligibly while
spraying the surroundings on every sibilant, and follow English women in
bikinis for several miles down deserted beaches at a distance of exactly 15
metres?
Or is that the English?
My wife loves the Algarve.
DK
--
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David Kilpatrick
Cumbrian and Yorkshire I was brought up with) very useful for lyrics. In
Scotland, English words are freely used alongside their Scots alternatives,
and alongside Scots pronunciations which are not dialect. In many cases that
can produce three or four vowel sounds instead of just one - great for
rhymes. Or even three very different sounding words. Gang, go, gae - three
alternatives instead of just 'go'! Mun, maun, must... etc etc.
Round here, you can hear: yin, ane, one, ae, ay all used for one. People in
one village say 'twa' and in the next say 'twae', and half of them say 'two'
half the time as well. (Actually there are three ways of pronouncing twa
that I've heard, but we try to avoid going to Fife :-)
For the Pierre Bensusan email group, I wrote a broad translation of the
French ballad 'Le Roi Renaud' into marginally archaic lowland Scots (that
is, imitation of 18th century imitations of Scots ballads). If anyone's
interested I'll post the French and my (singable, working, fully functional)
Scots version. I was not attempting a literal translation but to keep the
structure and sense of the ballad intact with natural language. It would
have been next to impossible to complete it quickly and naturally using
standard English; it was uncannily easy using Scots.
David
Dave Fawthrop
> Forwarded by Dave Fawthrop being a copy of an email by Andrew
>
> <<<
>
> < snip personal >
>
> I like the Army/Navy definition, which I think bears out my hypothesis:
the
> problem comes from attaching distinct meanings to the terms "language" and
> "dialect".
:-) it is not mine.
but thinking about it I would add a similar definition of a Dialect.
A dialect is a form of speech and/or writing with a regional identity, a
pressure group or religious group to defend it.
There are two versions of Hebrew, which depend on types of Judaism.
My own dialect is Yorkshire, more specifically the West Riding of Yorkshire.
Nothing unusual about that unless you read between the lines.
Yorkshire Tykes are a proud lot who will defend their heritage against
anyone, especially L****shire.
The region Yorkshire is only some 1000 years old, and the pressure group
the Yorkshire Dialect Society only some 100 plus years old.
>
> The general assumption (as it appears to me) is that there are a load of
> distinct languages. A dialect is an impure version of the true form of
the
> language (eg Geordie isn't proper English). People recognise a lot of
> dialects in their own language, and a few in other languages (I can only
> just tell the difference between a New Yorker and a Texan, and that's by
> looking at the hat; Japanese has no dialects that I would recognise. I
was
> taught "correct" French at school, then my cousins went and spoke a
> completely different version). Languages may also fall into groups (eg
> Romance languages) based on a common ancestor. All very hierarchical.
Taken to its limit there are probably only a few true languages
Indo-European
Uralic
Altaic
Causican
Basque
plus quite a few more groupings.
These groups are only an academic artifact, and I have heard it argued that
there was only one original language, from which all these groups are
derived.
I have also heard the argument that we are all descendants of a single "Eve"
and a Single "Adam" not in the biblical sense. These never met, but their
descendants out competed the rest over the millennia.
--
Dave Fawthrop <da...@hyphenologist.co.uk>
Born in Hull, Live in Halifax, .......
Matthew M. Huntbach
> Forwarded by Dave Fawthrop being a copy of an email by Andrew
> Languages also tend to mix themselves up - is English based on old
> French or old German or what? (or Latin, according to grammar pundits
> of the split infinitive variety). Which branch of the tree is it on?
It's recognised universally by comparative linguists as Germanic.
The words for the basic common things of human life are all of
Germanic origin. The old French contribution is much more limited
than many people suppose - a few items of second division vocabulary
and that's about it. The large number of words of Latin origin are
generally used only in technical or learned speech. The ordinary
conversation of the ordinary person in the street will consist
overwhelmingly of words which are the direct descendants of those
used in Old English, arising from the Germanic invaders of the early
mediaeval period.
Actually, languages tend not to mix themselves up as much as many
people suppose. It's generally a matter of just a few words from one
contributing to the vocabulary of the other, or some slight influence
on preferred grammatical structure. For example, in Wales and Ireland
and Cornwall, you did not get a new language which was a mixture of
English and the previous Celtic language. You got English with the odd
Celtic word. Same in Scotland - Scots does not have much Gaelic in it.
Matthew Huntbach
Michael Cargal
<hyp...@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
>A language is a dialect with an Army and Navy to defend it.
>
>This saying comes from the Balkans where mutually understandable languages
>come and go at great speed. In the now defunct Yugoslavia there used to be
>Serbo-Croat. Now there are Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian, to name but a
>few.
This saying has been attributed to Uriel Weinreich and a couple of
other people (Paul Kiparsky, Roman Jakobson). While the Balkans are a
good example, I don't know of any evidence that they were the main
impetus for the idea. It's at least 20 years old.
--
Michael Cargal mhca...@home.com
David
Dave Fawthrop <hyp...@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
> and the pressure group the Yorkshire Dialect Society
Er, Dave, I think "pressure group" is a bit over the top.
See http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/yds/1ab-0.htm
--
http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/colour/3c-0.htm
Cyan Magic
Left Eye of Sin
Left Foot in the Depth of the Earth
bogus address
>> A language is a dialect with an Army and Navy to defend it.
> other people (Paul Kiparsky, Roman Jakobson).
I've always thought that the modern version ought to be that a dialect
is a language with a dozen Kalshnikovs and a crate of Semtex.
Freckles
"David Kilpatrick" <da...@maxwellplace.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:970844753.25832.0...@news.demon.co.uk...
> In article <8rkdo9$a89$1...@beta.qmw.ac.uk> , m...@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew M.
> Huntbach) wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Distantly related, yes, but no more related than any other two
> > Indo-European languages. So, no more related than, say Polish and
> > Portuguese. Whereas Scots and English are more like Spanish and
> > Portuguese.
> >
> So is the Scots who smoke offensive cigarettes, speak unintelligibly while
> spraying the surroundings on every sibilant, and follow English women in
> bikinis for several miles down deserted beaches at a distance of exactly
15
> metres?
>
> Or is that the English?
>
> My wife loves the Algarve.
>
> DK
>
mor? Clanna nan Gaidheal ri guaillibh a cheile.
Suas le Alba! Suas leis a' Ghaidlig!
Freckles
Richard Robinson
>
>>> A language is a dialect with an Army and Navy to defend it.
>> other people (Paul Kiparsky, Roman Jakobson).
>
>I've always thought that the modern version ought to be that a dialect
>is a language with a dozen Kalshnikovs and a crate of Semtex.
Come to that, I thought the theory was that Scots shared an army and a navy
with English ?
--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem
Bob Spowart
Freckles wrote in message ...
>
<<SNIP>>
>Nach tu tha dubh aig a' ghrian. De tha gu bhith annad nuair a dh'fhasas tu
>mor? Clanna nan Gaidheal ri guaillibh a cheile.
>
>Suas le Alba! Suas leis a' Ghaidlig!
>
Bob
Megan
wrote:
but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!
>Distantly related, yes, but no more related than any other two
>Indo-European languages. So, no more related than, say Polish and
>Portuguese. Whereas Scots and English are more like Spanish and
>Portuguese.
Given that my linguistic knowledge is pretty much based on
Scandinavian Languages, my usual example is that Scots and English are
significantly further apart than Danish and (Bokmål) Norwegian.
Bokmål became a separate language largely due to the efforts of
Norwegian nationalists in the latter half of the 19th century.
(Getting significantly off topic, the concept that nation states have
their own languages has even led to Norwegian have two "dialects"
which come from different branches of the Scandinavian languages.)
Megan
--
Megan Farr Montgomery Wolverhampton, England
Extra Virgin Olive Oil - does this make Sweet Pea the new mesiah?
(with apologies to Paul Merton)
Nick-Durie
Megan <megan.mo...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7cvutsota78loms4a...@4ax.com...
> On 6 Oct 2000 11:40:57 GMT, m...@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew M. Huntbach)
> wrote:
> but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!
>
> >Distantly related, yes, but no more related than any other two
> >Indo-European languages. So, no more related than, say Polish and
> >Portuguese. Whereas Scots and English are more like Spanish and
> >Portuguese.
>
> Given that my linguistic knowledge is pretty much based on
> Scandinavian Languages, my usual example is that Scots and English are
> significantly further apart than Danish and (Bokmål) Norwegian.
> Bokmål became a separate language largely due to the efforts of
> Norwegian nationalists in the latter half of the 19th century.
>
What about the difference between Danish and Nynorsk, not merely in terms of
the lexis or semantics but what sort of differences are there in syntax and
morphology?
> (Getting significantly off topic, the concept that nation states have
> their own languages has even led to Norwegian have two "dialects"
> which come from different branches of the Scandinavian languages.)
>
I have heard it said by some that they are all dialects anyway; it does
certainly go a long way to justifying the Army Navy truism.
Freckles
"Bob Spowart" <B...@rspowart.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8rmi2p$vvs$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> Freckles wrote in message ...
> >
> <<SNIP>>
tu
> >mor? Clanna nan Gaidheal ri guaillibh a cheile.
> >
> >Suas le Alba! Suas leis a' Ghaidlig!
> >
> Bob
>
Freckles
>
Peter Moylan
> [...]. A dialect is an impure version of the true form of the
>language (eg Geordie isn't proper English).
Are you claiming, then, that one of the dialects of English has a
special "true form" status? Or do you hold, with Plato, that the
true form of the language is not spoken by anyone?
--
Peter Moylan pe...@ee.newcastle.edu.au
http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au
Dave Fawthrop
"Peter Moylan" <pe...@PJM2.newcastle.edu.au> wrote in message
news:8rogf4$nb5$1...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au...
> Dave Fawthrop wrote:
> > [...]. A dialect is an impure version of the true form of the
> >language (eg Geordie isn't proper English).
>
> Are you claiming, then, that one of the dialects of English has a
> special "true form" status? Or do you hold, with Plato, that the
> true form of the language is not spoken by anyone?
It was someone else who wrote that :-)
--
Dave Fawthrop <da...@hyphenologist.co.uk>
mikegibson
> >and king even possible to trace the slang phrase to "the big cheese".
>
> I thought that "Caesar" was originally just a Roman surname, and only
> came to have a meaning "King" when members of the Caesar family took
> control of the Roman empire. Thus Caesar is the root, and the others
> derivatives.
>
> Matthew Huntbach
I assure you Shah Tsar and Czar are derivative from the Persian however I
may be being erroneous in suggesting Caesar is derivative from the Persian
origin as well, even so Caesar would only be the root for Kaiser and
possibly king if this is the case.
Mike
This virus works on the honour system.
Please delete all the files on your hard disk, then forward
this message to everyone you know
iran_c...@my-deja.com
In article <gj7E5.23304$L12.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Marcus Houlden
to uk.local.yorkshire:
> A language is a dialect with an Army and Navy to defend it.
Hmm. Mind if I borrow that for a sig?
Linz
"Marcus Houlden" <sp...@nukesoft.co.uk> wrote in message
news:slrn8u4qp...@mrworry.compsoc.man.ac.uk...
To whom will you credit it? It's been around for a long time - I'm
surprised you didn't hear it during your A level English studies...
--
No need to run and hide
It's a wonderful, wonderful life
No need to laugh and cry
It's a wonderful, wonderful life
Dave Fawthrop
"Marcus Houlden" <sp...@nukesoft.co.uk> wrote in message
news:slrn8u4qp...@mrworry.compsoc.man.ac.uk...
> On Fri, 6 Oct 2000 06:54:38 +0100, Dave Fawthrop
<hyp...@hyphenologist.co.uk>
> wrote in message <8rjqn5$luu$1...@plutonium.compulink.co.uk>
> to uk.local.yorkshire:
>
> > A language is a dialect with an Army and Navy to defend it.
>
> Hmm. Mind if I borrow that for a sig?
It is not mine. It has been around for years. Do as you wish.
--
Dave Fawthrop <da...@hyphenologist.co.uk>
Polymorph
<li...@REMOVETHISlindsayendell.co.uk> writes
>
>"Marcus Houlden" <sp...@nukesoft.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:slrn8u4qp...@mrworry.compsoc.man.ac.uk...
>> On Fri, 6 Oct 2000 06:54:38 +0100, Dave Fawthrop
><hyp...@hyphenologist.co.uk>
>> wrote in message <8rjqn5$luu$1...@plutonium.compulink.co.uk>
>> to uk.local.yorkshire:
>>
>> > A language is a dialect with an Army and Navy to defend it.
>>
>> Hmm. Mind if I borrow that for a sig?
>
>surprised you didn't hear it during your A level English studies...
>
--
Andi Carey
Mark Tyndall
Him and Anon, they write all the best stuff.
I'll get me coat.
Mark..
--
I'm a blood-sucking fiend! Look at my outfit! -- Willow, BtVS
Linz
> In article <8ruh0c$1nuf$1...@godfrey.mcc.ac.uk>, Linz
> <li...@REMOVETHISlindsayendell.co.uk> writes
> >
> >"Marcus Houlden" <sp...@nukesoft.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:slrn8u4qp...@mrworry.compsoc.man.ac.uk...
> >> > A language is a dialect with an Army and Navy to defend it.
> >>
> >> Hmm. Mind if I borrow that for a sig?
> >
> >To whom will you credit it? It's been around for a long time - I'm
> >surprised you didn't hear it during your A level English studies...
> >
> Traditional?
Trad arr...
Have you any idea how confusing it is to be reading a thread in aue
and find it full of ulygans?
--
The great majority of people have more than the average
number of legs
Polymorph
<li...@REMOVETHISlindsayendell.co.uk> writes
>The great majority of people have more than the average
>number of legs
That's very mean Linz.
--
Andi Carey
Richard Robinson
>Polymorph wrote:
>> <li...@REMOVETHISlindsayendell.co.uk> writes
>> >"Marcus Houlden" <sp...@nukesoft.co.uk> wrote in message
>
>> >>
>> >> Hmm. Mind if I borrow that for a sig?
>> >
>> >To whom will you credit it? It's been around for a long time - I'm
>> >surprised you didn't hear it during your A level English studies...
>> >
>> Traditional?
>
>Trad arr...
>
>Have you any idea how confusing it is to be reading a thread in aue
>and find it full of ulygans?
O arr ?
Linz
"Polymorph" <An...@carrot.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:tEl1RdA+...@carrot.freeuk.com...
But statistically true.
--
Don't stop thinking about tomorrow
Don't stop, it'll soon be here
Richard Watson
> "Polymorph" <An...@carrot.freeuk.com> wrote in message
> news:tEl1RdA+...@carrot.freeuk.com...
> But statistically true.
And I think the same is probably true of arms, fingers, eyes, hands,
maybe even noses but definitely not heads.
--
Richard Watson | Pentagon Web Design Ltd | Reading, UK
rwa...@pwdltd.co.uk | Fax: +44(0)870 706 5282 | ICQ: 65274884
http://www.pwdltd.co.uk | Reg. Linux User #183315 | GPG/PGP 0xA6AB8345
~m.
Organization: We Kill Aims, inc.
Distribution:
Lines: 14
X-Newsreader: TIN [Windows/NT 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
Richard Watson (rwa...@pwdltd.co.uk) wrote:
: And I think the same is probably true of arms, fingers, eyes, hands,
: maybe even noses but definitely not heads.
Mmm. How about conjoined twins who are joined at the head? Do they "share"
a head, or do they have "separate" heads?
I do apologise to anyone who might be offended by that, by the way; I do
ask it in the spirit of genuine enquiry, however.
~m.
--
Mike Wallis, starring in "Who _is_ that masked man?" at a
cinema in Azerbaijan that was until recently a sewage farm.
Sean Emmott
~m. wrote in message <2000Oct12....@leeds.ac.uk>...
>7exia...@bluesharp.homeboxes>
>Organization: We Kill Aims, inc.
>Distribution:
>Lines: 14
>X-Newsreader: TIN [Windows/NT 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
>
>Richard Watson (rwa...@pwdltd.co.uk) wrote:
>: And I think the same is probably true of arms, fingers, eyes, hands,
>: maybe even noses but definitely not heads.
>
>Mmm. How about conjoined twins who are joined at the head? Do they "share"
>a head, or do they have "separate" heads?
>
>I do apologise to anyone who might be offended by that, by the way; I do
>ask it in the spirit of genuine enquiry, however.
There is no reason why they couldn't "share" a head, but from the scraps of
embyology I remember thery would probably have horrendous neural tube
defects [like spina bifida] and I doubt eoth foetus would be viable.
--
Sean
Dogs have owners. Cats have staff.
Take the mick out to reply
Richard Watson
> Richard Watson (rwa...@pwdltd.co.uk) wrote:
> : And I think the same is probably true of arms, fingers, eyes, hands,
> : maybe even noses but definitely not heads.
>
> Mmm. How about conjoined twins who are joined at the head? Do they "share"
> a head, or do they have "separate" heads?
Interesting thought. Is it possible to have 2 brains in one head in
those circumstances? I mean without any bone between them?
> I do apologise to anyone who might be offended by that, by the way; I do
> ask it in the spirit of genuine enquiry, however.
Quite right too.
Richard Watson
> ~m. wrote in message <2000Oct12....@leeds.ac.uk>...
> >Mmm. How about conjoined twins who are joined at the head? Do they "share"
> >a head, or do they have "separate" heads?
> There is no reason why they couldn't "share" a head, but from the scraps of
> embyology I remember thery would probably have horrendous neural tube
> defects [like spina bifida] and I doubt eoth foetus would be viable.
There's quite a famous pair of twins conjoined at the head.
One of them is a cleaner, the other is a country and western singer.
george...@my-deja.com
Richard Watson <rwa...@pwdltd.co.uk> wrote:
> "Linz" <li...@REMOVETHISlindsayendell.co.uk> writes:
>
> > "Polymorph" <An...@carrot.freeuk.com> wrote in message
> > news:tEl1RdA+...@carrot.freeuk.com...
>
> And I think the same is probably true of arms, fingers, eyes, hands,
> maybe even noses but definitely not heads.
Wrong (perhaps). All depends whether a person remains a person after
they are dead . .
G.
>
> --
> Richard Watson | Pentagon Web Design Ltd | Reading, UK
> rwa...@pwdltd.co.uk | Fax: +44(0)870 706 5282 | ICQ: 65274884
> http://www.pwdltd.co.uk | Reg. Linux User #183315 | GPG/PGP
0xA6AB8345
>
Olivers
>
> "Sean Emmott" <sean...@emmott.karoo.co.uk> writes:
>
> > ~m. wrote in message <2000Oct12....@leeds.ac.uk>...
>
> > >Mmm. How about conjoined twins who are joined at the head? Do they "share"
> > >a head, or do they have "separate" heads?
>
> > There is no reason why they couldn't "share" a head, but from the scraps of
> > embyology I remember thery would probably have horrendous neural tube
> > defects [like spina bifida] and I doubt eoth foetus would be viable.
>
> There's quite a famous pair of twins conjoined at the head.
>
> One of them is a cleaner, the other is a country and western singer.
>
Early explorers to the Americas reported a race of folks who were
headless, their visages located in their upper chests. Clearly, their
continued existence in some out of the way hamlet insures an overall
"something less than one per capita, well maybe not per capita, but
each".
Linz
> 7exia...@bluesharp.homeboxes>
> Organization: We Kill Aims, inc.
> Distribution:
> Lines: 14
> X-Newsreader: TIN [Windows/NT 1.3 950824BETA PL0]
>
> Richard Watson (rwa...@pwdltd.co.uk) wrote:
> : And I think the same is probably true of arms, fingers, eyes, hands,
> : maybe even noses but definitely not heads.
>
> Mmm. How about conjoined twins who are joined at the head? Do they "share"
> a head, or do they have "separate" heads?
I suspect it would depend on the join. I mean, there're the twins
someone else has mentioned, joined at the head, but obviously
completely separate in personality. They are too closely joined to be
separated, from what I recall.
Next week's Horizon (Thursday, BBC2, 9pm, clashing beautifully with
both Secret Codes and Fat Friends, dammit) may have more information.
> I do apologise to anyone who might be offended by that, by the way; I do
> ask it in the spirit of genuine enquiry, however.
I'll leave that in, just in case.
--
Live life, love, be happy
John Holmes
george...@my-deja.com wrote in message
<8s6q77$b9r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <m27l7ex...@bluesharp.homeboxes>,
>All depends whether a person remains a person after
>they are dead . .
A person becomes a person's remains after they're dead.
«
--
Regards,
John.
MWPioneer
Kilpatrick" <da...@maxwellplace.demon.co.uk> writes:
>For the Pierre Bensusan email group, I wrote a broad translation of the
>French ballad 'Le Roi Renaud' into marginally archaic lowland Scots (that
>is, imitation of 18th century imitations of Scots ballads). If anyone's
>interested I'll post the French and my (singable, working, fully functional)
>Scots version. I was not attempting a literal translation but to keep the
>
If you haven't done so already I'd be very interested in understanding the song
- Scots is probably more understandable than French !
Please post to uk.music.folk as well !
Mike Walton
Mike Walton (mw...@aol.com)
Change pio to pioneer to EMail back
Richard Head
"MWPioneer" <mwpi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001031081557...@nso-fz.aol.com...
> If you haven't done so already I'd be very interested in understanding the
song
> - Scots is probably more understandable than French !
perhaps to Rab Nesbit?
not to a Frenchman.
and certainly not to yer average multilingual educated ulygan
>
> Please post to uk.music.folk as well !
Please post *only* to uk.music.for.swinging.sassenachs