Aberdeen Coffins Scandal
Donald M. Fraser
in 1944. The crematorium at Kaimhill was raided and coffins and lids were
found which were supposed to have been destroyed. Two men, James Dewar and
Alick Forbes, were charged and subsequently went on trial. They were found
guilty and Dewar got three years for the theft of 1044 coffin lids and
Forbes got 6 months for reset of 100 lids.
Does anyone have any more information or suggestions where I might find out
about the story.
Thanks for your help.
Donald Fraser
Alexander Maclennan
>
> I am trying to find out more about this incident which occurred in
> Aberdeen in 1944.
The files of the Aberdeen Press and Journal should have all the gory
details.
--
Alexander MacLennan sand...@sandymac.demon.co.uk
Charles Ellson
d...@dmfraser.freeserve.co.uk "Donald M. Fraser" writes:
> I am trying to find out more about this incident which occurred in Aberdeen
> in 1944. The crematorium at Kaimhill was raided and coffins and lids were
> found which were supposed to have been destroyed. Two men, James Dewar and
> Alick Forbes, were charged and subsequently went on trial. They were found
> guilty and Dewar got three years for the theft of 1044 coffin lids and
> Forbes got 6 months for reset of 100 lids.
> Does anyone have any more information or suggestions where I might find out
> about the story.
>
Was this one of the cases which had a passing mention on the web-site of
either the Law Society of Scotland (www.lawscot.org.uk ??) or "Lawful
Business" (a Radio Scotland programme presented by Austin Lafferty); it
sounds like one of the text book cases used to illustrate the meaning of
"theft" in Scots Law (in the above case AIUI it would not be "theft" in
England).
--
_______
+---------------------------------------------------+ |\\ //|
| Charles Ellson:E-mail charlesATellson.demon.co.uk | | \\ // |
+---------------------------------------------------+ | > < |
| // \\ |
Alba gu brath |//___\\|
Clare O'Brien
recycled "Loch Dubh Deluxe" lead-lined coffin as I recall.....) :o)
Clare O'Brien
URL: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/clareobrien
**************************************************
Everyone walks the same
Expecting me to step
the narrow path they've laid
They claim to walk unafraid
I'll be clumsy instead...
- Michael Stipe, "Walk Unafraid"
**************************************************
Donald M. Fraser wrote in message <7ltuot$p5h$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>I am trying to find out more about this incident which occurred in Aberdeen
>in 1944. The crematorium at Kaimhill was raided and coffins and lids were
>found which were supposed to have been destroyed. Two men, James Dewar and
>Alick Forbes, were charged and subsequently went on trial. They were found
>guilty and Dewar got three years for the theft of 1044 coffin lids and
>Forbes got 6 months for reset of 100 lids.
>Does anyone have any more information or suggestions where I might find out
>about the story.
>
John Burns
> recycled "Loch Dubh Deluxe" lead-lined coffin as I recall.....) :o)
Aye. Hamish is repeated every Wednesday (tonight) at 10.20 on UK Gold
:-)
I went to Inverness High School with a lad called David Crierer, his
father used to be the Policeman in Plockton around the early 80s.
--
Who needs a life when you've got Unix? :-)
Email: jo...@unixnerd.demon.co.uk, John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny Scotland
Web : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk - The Ultimate BMW Homepage!
Malcolm Ogilvie
<jo...@unixnerd.demon.co.uk> writes
>> Wasn't there an episode of Hamish Macbeth along these lines (a permanently
>> recycled "Loch Dubh Deluxe" lead-lined coffin as I recall.....) :o)
>
>Aye. Hamish is repeated every Wednesday (tonight) at 10.20 on UK Gold
>:-)
>
--
Malcolm
Stephen Copinger
Charles Ellson wrote in message <931319...@ellson.demon.co.uk>...
>In article <7ltuot$p5h$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
> d...@dmfraser.freeserve.co.uk "Donald M. Fraser" writes:
>
Aberdeen
>> in 1944. The crematorium at Kaimhill was raided and coffins and lids were
>> found which were supposed to have been destroyed. Two men, James Dewar
and
>> Alick Forbes, were charged and subsequently went on trial. They were
found
>> guilty and Dewar got three years for the theft of 1044 coffin lids and
>> Forbes got 6 months for reset of 100 lids.
>> Does anyone have any more information or suggestions where I might find
out
>> about the story.
>>
>either the Law Society of Scotland (www.lawscot.org.uk ??) or "Lawful
>Business" (a Radio Scotland programme presented by Austin Lafferty); it
>sounds like one of the text book cases used to illustrate the meaning of
>"theft" in Scots Law (in the above case AIUI it would not be "theft" in
>England).
>--
There should be a fair description of the events in that (before several
pages of extremely dull legal argument). Mr Dewar was convicted of the theft
of two coffins as well as the large number of lids. His argument was that he
believed every crematorium did the same and that he was entitled to keep the
coffins and lids if he did not need to use them to burn the body. The court
decision was that if he could have proved he had reasonable grounds to
believe that he wouldn't have been guilty of theft (although he would still
not be entitled to keep them).
Beannachd leibh
Stephen
ian.s...@dial.pipex.com
O'Brien" <clare...@compuserve.com> :
>Wasn't there an episode of Hamish Macbeth along these lines (a permanently
>recycled "Loch Dubh Deluxe" lead-lined coffin as I recall.....) :o)
Didn't see it but legend has it that, about 20 years ago, the "burial
at sea" of a lead lined coffin off the Scottish coast had to be carried
out three times !!
First time the currents and tide brought it back,
second time it was caught up in the nets of a fishing boat.
Third time it went into *DEEP* water.
And for those of you who are aware of my occupation,
NO it was NOT our company who were involved !!!
-- IRS
-- http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/ian_stewart
>
>Clare O'Brien
>
>URL: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/clareobrien
>**************************************************
>Everyone walks the same
>Expecting me to step
>the narrow path they've laid
>They claim to walk unafraid
>I'll be clumsy instead...
> - Michael Stipe, "Walk Unafraid"
>**************************************************
>
>Donald M. Fraser wrote in message <7ltuot$p5h$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>>I am trying to find out more about this incident which occurred in Aberdeen
>>in 1944. The crematorium at Kaimhill was raided and coffins and lids were
>>found which were supposed to have been destroyed. Two men, James Dewar and
>>Alick Forbes, were charged and subsequently went on trial. They were found
>>guilty and Dewar got three years for the theft of 1044 coffin lids and
>>Forbes got 6 months for reset of 100 lids.
>>Does anyone have any more information or suggestions where I might find out
>>about the story.
>>
Nigel J. Carron
>about the story.
>
>Thanks for your help.
>
>Donald Fraser
>
>d...@dmfraser.freeserve.co.uk
>
>
The P & J archives - if they don't keep them readily available - should
be copies at Aberdeen University Queen Mothers Library..
Nigel J. Carron
Aberdeenshire
Scotland
Moses Lambert
>Charles Ellson wrote in message <931319...@ellson.demon.co.uk>...
>>In article <7ltuot$p5h$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
>> d...@dmfraser.freeserve.co.uk "Donald M. Fraser" writes:
>Aberdeen
>>> in 1944. The crematorium at Kaimhill was raided and coffins and lids were
>>> found which were supposed to have been destroyed. Two men, James Dewar
>and
>>> Alick Forbes, were charged and subsequently went on trial. They were
>found
>>> guilty and Dewar got three years for the theft of 1044 coffin lids and
>>> Forbes got 6 months for reset of 100 lids.
>out
>>> about the story.
>>>
>>either the Law Society of Scotland (www.lawscot.org.uk ??) or "Lawful
>>Business" (a Radio Scotland programme presented by Austin Lafferty); it
>>sounds like one of the text book cases used to illustrate the meaning of
>>"theft" in Scots Law (in the above case AIUI it would not be "theft" in
>>England).
>>--
>Aha! Got it - the case is reported as HMA v Dewar 1945 JC 5.
>There should be a fair description of the events in that (before several
>pages of extremely dull legal argument). Mr Dewar was convicted of the theft
>of two coffins as well as the large number of lids. His argument was that he
>believed every crematorium did the same and that he was entitled to keep the
>coffins and lids if he did not need to use them to burn the body. The court
>decision was that if he could have proved he had reasonable grounds to
>believe that he wouldn't have been guilty of theft (although he would still
>not be entitled to keep them).
>
>Beannachd leibh
>Stephen
A: Why would anyone buy a metal coffin for cremation?
B: What *do* they do with them afterward, then?
--
Moses Lambert
Proud Conspiracies Member: IJC, Vast Right-Wing, Hiramite, Cabalistic, Circuit Mayflower & Y2K
(didn't think all those programs got screwed up all by themselves, did you?)
Bruce Munro
<ian.s...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:12:01 +0100, I read these words from "Clare
>O'Brien" <clare...@compuserve.com> :
>
>>Wasn't there an episode of Hamish Macbeth along these lines (a permanently
>>recycled "Loch Dubh Deluxe" lead-lined coffin as I recall.....) :o)
>Didn't see it but legend has it that, about 20 years ago, the "burial
>at sea" of a lead lined coffin off the Scottish coast had to be carried
>out three times !!
>
>First time the currents and tide brought it back,
Hmm. I seem to remember that the laws regarding burial at sea stipulate
that coffins must be well weighted so that even strong tides won't shift
them. Sounds like someone was skimping on the job. Perhaps it was a lead
leaf lining! Either that or someone swiped the lead prior to the burial.
Micheil
>On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:12:01 +0100, I read these words from "Clare
>O'Brien" <clare...@compuserve.com> :
>
>>Wasn't there an episode of Hamish Macbeth along these lines (a permanently
>>recycled "Loch Dubh Deluxe" lead-lined coffin as I recall.....) :o)
>Didn't see it but legend has it that, about 20 years ago, the "burial
>at sea" of a lead lined coffin off the Scottish coast had to be carried
>out three times !!
>
>First time the currents and tide brought it back,
>second time it was caught up in the nets of a fishing boat.
>Third time it went into *DEEP* water.
>
>And for those of you who are aware of my occupation,
>NO it was NOT our company who were involved !!!
Aha! The MacRobert connection revealed!
MacRobert scavenges on land, the Desp. Stewart handles the deep.
My brother and I used to do the shore - in those days the government
paid five pounds for every drowned sailor you found.
We never found one. Now I'm a little less revolting, I'm glad nobody
had to die to satisfy our lust for English gold.
Tip for those of us getting older: When assailed by funeral directors
trying to sell you a burial plot, silence them by remarking, "Of
course, I might be lost at sea...."
I never tasted crab until I was an adult because of a local belief
that crabs fed on drowned sailors. Forunately this stricture didn't
apply to lobsters which, one presumes, were more discriminating.
The elderly father of a Jewish friend once ordered his son to "stop
eating abominations"; his word for shellfish and crustaceans. Ever
since, my friend's pleasure in devouring them has been immeasurably
enhanced. Kosher is not the watchword of his lifestyle.
In any case, all our preceptions are changing because of mass
communications. When I was a child and saw a butterfly, I thought,
"Ah, butterfly!" Now, thanks to television, I think of sanitary pads.
No kidding. I saw some young women running through a wood among
flowers and, yes, some butterflies. I knew my duty; I headed straight
for a drugstore and bought a package of Tampax without even blinking.
And thanks to the Irish Wolf, I have been cured for ever of breaking
wind near food after hearing her dissertation on particle dispersion.
This is a specialty lecture to which she treats all male friends who
enter her kitchen, especially those carrying beer. I'm planning to
reveal to her that in Japan they hold inter-village farting contests.
Have you ever considered how prim we really are? Thanks to
Judeo-Christian ethical teachings, we regard bodily functions as
shameful. It's even against the law to "perform a natural act in
public". Shame on all you criminals who pee in alleyways!
Most people seem to keep a giant economy sized can of what smells like
a Saigon whore's perfume in their bathrooms. In my day it was Airwick;
my wife was always hunting for one which had a longer wick on the "the
more wick, the more effective" principle. When my brother stayed for a
week, we both spent time on the phone to Airwick, trying to place a
global economy sized specialty order.
In Tai Shan (Big Mountain), a peasant district of Canton about 400
miles from Hong Kong where a Canadian-born friend of mine went to
visit her family, if you used someone else's outhouse, you weighed
what you left behind and told your host, "You owe my granny half a
pound of poop" because of its value as crop fertiliser.
Now it all goes into a septic tank and is piped back into Granny's
house as methane gas to power the kitchen stove. Progress!
In the desert people gaped at me because I peed standing up. Arab men
squat to pee. Toilet paper vanishes once you leave Europe; instead the
facilities consist of a bucket of cold water and a dubious-looking
cloth. With the sole exception of Indonersia, where the value of a US
dollar against the enormously large one rupiah note meant you could
buy a lifetime supply of toilet paper for a buck.
The printing quality was less than Bank of Scotland standard; you had
to manipulate your one rupiah note carefully so as not to leave the
outhouse with a reverse image of President Sukarno on your buttock in
purple and green ink. A sort of poor man's Shroud of Turin.
In the Highlands, grass was the official standby when caught short
outdoors. Not too satisfactory, I have to report.
It has always bemused me that in a land as barren as the Highlands,
where living conditions were as harsh as anywhere south of Greenland,
the people's creative energy was directed towards malt whisky.
The wheel, the keystone bridge, the fireplace and chimney; all were
ignored in the rush to narcotize oneself against reality. And the
literature of the past never failed to mention the copious quantities
in which the golden throat charmer was drunk.
One must understand that the malt whisky of yore was not the delicate,
bouquet-laden products we overdose on today. Highland whisky was a
harsh, high proof spirit which reached into the depths of your stomach
and exploded. Anyone who could afford it drank brandy for preference.
And as the only grain available was a poor quality plant called bere,
a semi-wild, small barley corn, vast amounts were required to produce
sufficient whisky so that people could drink it in copious quantities.
So you see, we began to get a picture of a people who dedicated a
large part of their lives to raising and gathering bere, along with
cutting peat for warmth and looking for something to eat. No wonder
raiding each other was so popular; the first dim beginnings of
capitalism; let someone else do the work and then grab the profits.
And if the victims died of starvation as a result, so much the better
- no chance of retaliation. Simple, logical, therefore acceptable.
So now we see England for what it really was. Not an enemy, no indeed.
Instead, a vast supermarket, piled to the ceiling with goodies ready
for the taking! All you needed was a cart, a horse, a pal to hold the
reins and a bloody great broadsword and you could fund your retirement
with no problem anywhere south of the Carter Bar.
There is a Gaelic word, "creach", which, when dropped in company,
brightens every eye and rivets the attention of all. It means "loot".
One smiles patronizingly at English children lisping their dreams of
what they want to be when they grow up; "a twain dwiver". In the
Highlands children aren't asked that question because everyone already
knows; they're going to be looters (in some acceptable format like
banking, law or stockbroking); probably abroad because nobody wants
the kids at home stealing from their own kin.
So young Highland men fan out across the world to ply their skills,
attracting smiles and nods of approval from the unwitting, who do not
realize they are witnessing Britain's Mongols in action.
According to the US Department of Statistics, Scots are the second
most financially successful group in North America; the first being
the Greeks. The Greeks believe the Scots are old-time Greek emigrants,
what with the kilt, the Beaker people in Aberdeen, Homer's description
of the land of Skotia, which means rainy and dreary in Greek, etc.
And of course when it comes to looting, even we understand that in the
presence of the Greeks we are but acolytes. Timeo Daneos et dones
ferent - I fear the Greeks when they bring gifts, said a Roman
senator. Bloody right! I fear them too, especially if they're standing
near my silverware. Who needs a pound of feta cheese as a gift when
the price is your silver tea service, now on its way to Athens?
Highland loot takes many forms these days of course. From the Kyle
shopkeeper cheerfully doubling prices every time an accent from south
of Aviemore comes in the door, to the open salvers - always engraved
with the Biblical line, "The Lord loveth a cheerful giver" - passed
among the congregation. None of your discreet, velvet bags with
drawstrings that the Anglicans use; no, it's right out there for
public inspection - "Angus MacLeod only gave a shilling!"
In the old days, ministers would announce that this Sunday would be a
silver collection. This was their winsome way of alerting you that the
price of whisky had shot up again. Today, your average Highland
minister likes to see, if not the title deeds to your croft, at least
what looks like last week's printing run at the Mint. I don't go to
church any more; I can't afford the minister's tastes.
The Free Church has now decided that it missed the boat when it
condemned the Internet. I can tell you why. No more training a bloke
and sending him at vast expense to some remote place like Soay to
preach to three shepherds and a dog.
Instead, you sell the faithful a computer and give them a link to the
Free Church website, where they can watch the minister online, just as
I watched the opening of the Scottish Parliament.
Time for the Collection - no problem! Ecommerce to the rescue!
Instantaneous checking of your credit card; minimum offering Ł50.
Did your card bounce? You're going to Hell, Angus Morrison; better get
that bill paid off and make up your arrears pretty damned quick or two
real ministers in black hats and coats will be with you shortly from
the Collections Department to demonstrate the difference between
compound interest and a compound fracture. Nobody fools around with
the Free Church at Collection time.
I imagine the Catholic Church will be interested in this too, but
certain technical problems have to overcome, like the question of the
Host, the wine and wafer of communion.
I figure the way out of this one is to offer a downloadable coupon,
good at any church for a year's supply. When the moment comes, you
just reach for the cookie jar and your bottle and do it yourself;
after all, that's the trend these days anyway, except in sexual
matters where doing it yourself will cause you to go blind and sprout
hair on the palm of your hand, not to mention hours on the
Confessional Channel, revealing all to 200 million eavesdroppers.
But to return to our Highland Lads - the ultimate vision, the Olympic
star of Highland society, is The Man Who Makes It At Home. There only
is one and his name is MacAlpine. In Highland eyes he stands among the
gods; living proof that It Can Be Done. Legally too!
The rest of us take the easy way out and go to America, where it's
like robbing the blind. Americans impose so many barriers on
themselves when it comes to acquiring the world's loot - honesty,
fairness, ethics and a host of other oddball concepts - that it's hard
to know where to begin when you first get there.
A common sight at airports is the young Highland lad, staring at the
lights of the city, fingers already twitching, while well-meaning
locals stop to ask, "Can I help you?"
Are you kidding? If this lad couldn't help himself he wouldn't be here
in the first place. Just make sure you don't ask him home for the
night unless you're planning to replace your furniture and worldly
goods tomorrow anyway.
But there's a downside too. I remember once seeing a lonely figure
sitting in a bar with a pencil and paper in front of him, a tam on his
head and a tear coursing slowly down his cheek as the radio played
"Skye Again!"
I was mildly affected myself, so I sat beside him and said, "Is it the
homesickness that's on you, boy?"
He shook himself back to reality and stared at me. "Heffens no," he
sobbed, " It's chust that... I'fe chust calculated that I'll haff to
work here at least anither minth pefore I can get home to Portree with
enuff to retire on..."
Truly it hath been written, "There is no more impressive sight in the
world than a Scotsman on the make." (St. Paul, to the Romans.)
- měcheil
- innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thěr na Ňg......
Bryn Fraser
>Truly it hath been written, "There is no more impressive sight in the
>world than a Scotsman on the make." (St. Paul, to the Romans.)
>
>
>- měcheil
>
>- innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thěr na Ňg......
Damn you Měcheil....
<ard-mholadh>
Bryn Fraser
Tha na caileagan fo mhulad......
McBad
Excellent post!
M
Micheil
<br...@finhall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>Truly it hath been written, "There is no more impressive sight in the
>>world than a Scotsman on the make." (St. Paul, to the Romans.)
>>
>>
>>- měcheil
>>
>>- innis dhomh sgéile mu 'n Thěr na Ňg......
>
>Damn you Měcheil....
>
>
><ard-mholadh>
>
Taing is buidheachas dhuit - cha robh mi ach a'seachran...
>
>Bryn Fraser
>
>Tha na caileagan fo mhulad......
>
>
>http://www.finhall.demon.co.uk
>http://thefrasers.com
ian.s...@dial.pipex.com
Lambert" <macb...@kdsi.net> :
It's a Scottish tradition ! Aberdonian actually.
As everyone knows, it requires a much higher temperature to burn
metal (compared to wood).
So, in order for Sandy to get his moneys worth, he orders a metal casket
which needs about five times the gas !
This is the guy whose neighbour found him removing wallpaper.
"Re-decorating, Sandy ?", he asked
Back came the reply, "No, Flitting".(that's moving house)
>B: What *do* they do with them afterward, then?
Coffee tables
(an unusual modernistic shape)
Model railroad tables
(passenger trains only, no BOXcars)
Firewood / Kindling
(if it's going to burn anyway, it might as well do some good)
-- The Despicable Stewart
-- Perfidious Alban
-- http://www.scs.informer.ukgateway.net/
Moses Lambert
My goodness gracious, you're a veritable fountain of helpful information, Ian. Or something...
Alasdair Baxter
Ellson) wrote:
> it
>sounds like one of the text book cases used to illustrate the meaning of
>"theft" in Scots Law (in the above case AIUI it would not be "theft" in
>England).
Why shouldn't it be theft in England? In England a person is guilty of
theft if he "dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with
the intention of permanently depriving that other of it". Theft Act 1968
section 1.
Clearly the coffin lids belonged to the estates of the deceased or to
the crematorium authorities. The English courts have held that where
refuse is put out for the binmen, it belongs to the council and anyone
gathering discarded items from bins or skips can be convicted of theft.
--
Alasdair Baxter, Nottingham, UK.Tel +44 115 9705100; Fax +44 115 9423263
"It's not what you say that matters but how you say it.
It's not what you do that matters but how you do it"
Alasdair Baxter
>And for those of you who are aware of my occupation,
>NO it was NOT our company who were involved !!!
Is that the same case where a wealthy American or Canadian wanted to be
buried at sea in the Firth of Clyde? I cannot remember the details but
I think there was some jukery pokery and the undertakers were a very
well known Glasgow firm of funeral directors.
To misquote the Nottingham City motto "Resurgit post funera arca"
Charles Ellson
alas...@inc.co.uk "Alasdair Baxter" writes:
> On Wed, 07 Jul 99 03:43:39 GMT, Cha...@ellson.demon.co.uk (Charles
> Ellson) wrote:
>
> > it
> >sounds like one of the text book cases used to illustrate the meaning of
> >"theft" in Scots Law (in the above case AIUI it would not be "theft" in
> >England).
>
> Why shouldn't it be theft in England? In England a person is guilty of
> theft if he "dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with
> the intention of permanently depriving that other of it". Theft Act 1968
> section 1.
>
The difference is caused by the lids being given into his possession
willingly rather than being taken without permission. In the case of
coffin lids (as part of a coffin intended for burial) the owner has a
clear intention of relinquishing possession and thus it is not the receiver
who has the intent to deprive him of such possession as by the time the
receiver has possession the owner has himself performed the act of depriving
himself. AUIU Scots Law looks at the dishonesty within the act, but English
Law requires the act to match a particular law.
In England AIUI if someone has conciously put into your possession an item
of property the offence is not "theft" but in most cases involving
dishonesty something else (e.g. taking and driving away a motor vehicle
when you don't return from a test drive, fraudulent conversion when you
give someone a fiver to spend on A and he spends it on B) which may come
under the Theft Act or other legislation, but not as "theft".
IIRC from a Radio Scotland "Lawful Business" programme some months
ago Scotland and England have different deciding points at which the civil
wrong of obtaining or retaining improper possession of another's property
changes to the criminal act of theft.
> Clearly the coffin lids belonged to the estates of the deceased or to
> the crematorium authorities. The English courts have held that where
> refuse is put out for the binmen, it belongs to the council and anyone
> gathering discarded items from bins or skips can be convicted of theft.
>
That's because the previous owner has an intended recipient so the items
have a continuous chain of owners unlike an item which is merely abandoned
(rather than lost where stealing by finding is possible).