Query on Box Junction Right Turn Rule - Can you stop when turning right? (A406 Penalty)
Dave
I'd like to clarify the rules on box junctions and what is allowed.
I received a penalty notice relating to a junction on the A406 North
Circular Road - the Bows Road/Green Lanes junction.
I was travelling north from Green Lanes, and turning right onto the
A406 North Circular Eastbound at the junction shown here:
I have received a penalty notice (with photos) for "31 entering and
stopping in a box junction when prohibited". I don't dispute
stopping in the box junction. I did, but I was waiting to turn right!
The box junction I stopped in was the one on the west bound carriageway
(i.e. on the G of "Green Lanes") on the above map. I was in the
right hand lane, indicating right, and the way ahead was blocked by
other traffic turning right. I thought that the rules on stopping in
box junctions were that you were allowed to stop if you were turning
right?
So I am in a position to challenge the £100 penalty (the photo
actually shows my right indicator is on) or have I misunderstood the
rules?
Cheers,
David
Nullified
wrote:
I thought you could only stop when turning right if your way was
blocked by vehicles coming ACROSS your path - i.e the other way, not
queing behind other vehicles turning right?
DB.
"Dave" <david...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:1158525949.3...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Hi guys,
Cheers,
David
Surely that's just the purpose of that marked box junction - by
stopping on the "G" you were stopping the free flow of Westbound N.
Circular Rd. traffic. It is required that you hold back, stopping
over the "reen" or, if there's room for your car, in the (yellow) bit
between the (green) W/bound and E/bound North Circular Road
carriageways.
--
DB.
Mark Goodge
>Hi guys,
>
>I'd like to clarify the rules on box junctions and what is allowed.
>I received a penalty notice relating to a junction on the A406 North
>Circular Road - the Bows Road/Green Lanes junction.
>
>I was travelling north from Green Lanes, and turning right onto the
>A406 North Circular Eastbound at the junction shown here:
>
>http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=N22+8LY&ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=51.611821,-0.111569&spn=0.004344,0.014763&om=1&iwloc=A
>
>I have received a penalty notice (with photos) for "31 entering and
>stopping in a box junction when prohibited". I don't dispute
>stopping in the box junction. I did, but I was waiting to turn right!
>The box junction I stopped in was the one on the west bound carriageway
>(i.e. on the G of "Green Lanes") on the above map. I was in the
>right hand lane, indicating right, and the way ahead was blocked by
>other traffic turning right. I thought that the rules on stopping in
>box junctions were that you were allowed to stop if you were turning
>right?
No. You can only wait in a box junction if you are turning right and
your route is blocked by traffic coming from the other direction.
that's because such traffic isn't using the same exit as you, and thus
isn't blocking your exit. If your route is blocked by other traffic
ahead of you also turning right, then that traffic is blocking your
exit and you can't enter the box junction until it is clear.
Mark
--
Please help a cat in need: http://www.goodge.co.uk/cat/
Nullified
yeah. das wot i ment.
Ian
"Mark Goodge" wrote in message
Wrong, otherwise only one vehicle would be able to turn right for each
change of the traffic lights. Here a copy of the relevant section of
TSRGD2002 ,
SIGNIFICANCE OF BOX JUNCTION MARKINGS
Interpretation of Part II of Schedule
6. In this Part of this Schedule -
(a) "box junction" means the area of carriageway marked with yellow
cross-hatching at a junction between two or more roads on which there has
been placed the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044; and
(b) a reference (however expressed) to a vehicle which is stationary or
stops within a box junction includes a vehicle which is stationary whilst
part of it is within the box junction.
Prohibition conveyed by markings in diagram 1043 or 1044
7. - (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8,
the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the
prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction
so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence
of stationary vehicles.
(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person -
(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box
junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from
completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are
stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.'
However, I note from the photo that accompanies the Goggle map that there
are two box junctions and you stopped in the first, whereas traffic turning
right would be stopped in the second box next to 'A406' on the map. It could
be argued that it is two separate boxes and as such you were travelling
straight on at the first and would be turning right at the second. Different
rules apply to each box. So I think you are guilty allow I can understand
the confusion.
Ian
tim(yet another new home)
"Mark Goodge" <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message
news:46erg2dgseb9laq0b...@news.markshouse.net...
According to the highway code this isn't right
http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/16.htm#150
says:
"and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other
vehicles waiting to turn right"
So ISTM that the OP was not doing anything wrong.
(Yes, I know that the HC is not definitative but for something
as basic as this, I would expect it to be right)
tim
hzatph
"Ian" <if.pt...@nospamtesco.net> wrote in message
news:OcjPg.5979$2g5....@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
I think Ian is correct although the level of knowledge of the exact rule is
not high so unless Ian is also correct in challenging which box you have
grounds for a challenge.
Knight Of The Road
"Dave" <david...@yahoo.com.au> wrote
I thought that the rules on stopping in
box junctions were that you were allowed to stop if you were turning
right?
The rules on box junctions have more to do with the position of traffic when
you *enter* the box junction, rather than the position of traffic when you
stop.
If you entered the box junction when your onward path was impeded by a
vehicle travelling in the same direction then you have committed an offence.
--
Regards, Vince.
www.TruckDrivingInRussia.co.uk
Dave
Ian wrote:
> "Mark Goodge" wrote in message
> However, I note from the photo that accompanies the Goggle map that there
> are two box junctions and you stopped in the first, whereas traffic turning
> right would be stopped in the second box next to 'A406' on the map. It could
> be argued that it is two separate boxes and as such you were travelling
> straight on at the first and would be turning right at the second. Different
> rules apply to each box. So I think you are guilty allow I can understand
> the confusion.
> Ian
Hi Mark,
Having thought about this, I think this is the reason I have committed
the offence. There are 2 separate box junctions separated by a very
short strip (1 car length) which is not a box junction. I imagine that
hundreds of people must have been "caught" by this camera as I use it
very regularly and have observed that many people "block" the junction
where I did when wanting to turn right at the second box junction. I
guess the "powers that be" must have got their facts right (or they
would face a flood of complaints and challenges to the fine).
As such, I'll pay the fine (only £50 if I pay promptly) and you know
what(!), I'll pay much more attention to box junctions in the future
and make damn sure I don't stop in one and no doubt others fined will
too, and no doubt the roads will be more free flowing than before the
introduction of cameras.
Thank you all for your comments.
Cheers,
David
John Rowland
careful in future ;-)
Ian wrote:
> However, I note from the photo that accompanies the Goggle map that
> there are two box junctions and you stopped in the first, whereas
> traffic turning right would be stopped in the second box next to
> 'A406' on the map. It could be argued that it is two separate boxes
> and as such you were travelling straight on at the first and would be
> turning right at the second.
Correct. You are not allowed to wait on the first box in order to turn right
at the second. I think it may be worth contesting though, since although the
separate boxes are very clear in
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=N22+8LY&ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=51.611821,-0.111569&spn=0.004344,0.014763&om=1&iwloc=A ,
when travelling southbound the yellow paint is so faint that the box
junctions are an instinctive awareness rather than physical objects with
clearly discernible edges. I'm not sure if the northbound situation is as
bad, but it is easy to see how someone unfamiliar with the junction would
see the start of the first box and think "it's okay, I'm turning right" and
not realise that the box ended beneath the back bumper of the car waiting on
the other side.
tim(yet another new home)
>As such, I'll pay the fine (only £50 if I pay promptly) and you know
>what(!), I'll pay much more attention to box junctions in the future
>and make damn sure I don't stop in one and no doubt others fined will
>too, and no doubt the roads will be more free flowing than before the
>introduction of cameras.
The LAs have already discovered that this isn't the case.
Oh dear, what do they do!
tim
Martin Underwood
LL-dnWUTx4p...@bt.com:
> "Dave" <david...@yahoo.com.au> wrote
>
> If you entered the box junction when your onward path was impeded by a
> vehicle travelling in the same direction then you have committed an
> offence.
But that's not what the TSRGD2002 , SIGNIFICANCE OF BOX JUNCTION MARKINGS
extract says:
(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person -
(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box
junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from
completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles *or other vehicles which are
stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.*
Note the phrase "or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to
complete a right turn".
My interpretation is that you are forbidden from queueing across the box
junction if you are going straight ahead or turning left, but you are
permitted to queue if you are turning right and are blocked either by
oncoming vehicles or ones ahead of you which are also turning right. I
suppose it all hinges on how exactly you define the word "complete": at what
stage is the right turn complete for vehicles ahead of you beyond the box
junction? Maybe the diagrams referred to in the text that I've snipped show
legal and illegal situations, despite the slightly ambiguous wording.
Thinking of box junctions, I've always wondered what the legal situation if
you enter a box junction (going straight ahead) because there is a
car-length space beyond the junction, and *then* after you've started to
enter it, a car on your left turns left so as to occupy "your" space that
was clear when you first entered the box. Obviously you can't be held
responsible for a situation that has changed: you've abided by the rules in
that you've waited until there was a gap beyond the box for you to move
into, but someone has subsequently "stolen" it. But if there's a camera
which only shows the situation after the car has gone ahead of you and with
you on the box, how do you prove that the space was clear when you began the
manoeuvre, unless there's also a photo from a second or so earlier?
Jerry
Ian wrote:
> "Mark Goodge" wrote in message
> However, I note from the photo that accompanies the Goggle map that
> there
> are two box junctions and you stopped in the first, whereas traffic
> turning
> right would be stopped in the second box next to 'A406' on the map. It
> could
> be argued that it is two separate boxes and as such you were travelling
> straight on at the first and would be turning right at the second.
> Different
> rules apply to each box. So I think you are guilty allow I can understand
> the confusion.
> Ian
Hi Mark,
Having thought about this, I think this is the reason I have committed
the offence. There are 2 separate box junctions separated by a very
short strip (1 car length) which is not a box junction.
Looking at the link posted by John Rowland below, the gap between the
junctions appears to be about 3 car lengths.
The two boxes (from the aerial photo) seem very seperate and well defined
and clearly seek to enable two different carriageways of traffic to move
freely.
I think it's time to pay up!
Mike Barnes
>I'm not sure if the northbound situation is as
>bad, but it is easy to see how someone unfamiliar with the junction would
>see the start of the first box and think "it's okay, I'm turning right" and
>not realise that the box ended beneath the back bumper of the car waiting on
>the other side.
I have some sympathy with that point of view, but it should be clear to
even the most unfamiliar driver that there are in fact two carriageways.
I don't think I've ever seen a box that covers both carriageways in a
situation like that.
I also have sympathy with the point of view that says that box junction
markings should be erased, and *every* junction should a box junction.
--
Mike Barnes
Mike Harrison
>
>Ian wrote:
>
>> "Mark Goodge" wrote in message
>
>> However, I note from the photo that accompanies the Goggle map that there
>> are two box junctions and you stopped in the first, whereas traffic turning
>> right would be stopped in the second box next to 'A406' on the map. It could
>> be argued that it is two separate boxes and as such you were travelling
>> straight on at the first and would be turning right at the second. Different
>> rules apply to each box. So I think you are guilty allow I can understand
>> the confusion.
>> Ian
>
>Hi Mark,
>
>Having thought about this, I think this is the reason I have committed
>the offence. There are 2 separate box junctions separated by a very
>short strip (1 car length) which is not a box junction. I imagine that
>hundreds of people must have been "caught" by this camera as I use it
>very regularly and have observed that many people "block" the junction
>where I did when wanting to turn right at the second box junction. I
>guess the "powers that be" must have got their facts right (or they
>would face a flood of complaints and challenges to the fine).
Never assume this - Authorities frequently make mistakes in their eagerness to screw money out of
the gullible motorist who will pay up rather than challenge them.
Mike Harrison
You should also look at the Traffic Signs and General Directions (HMSO, available online) to see if
the markings strictly conform to the regulations. I know there was a case a while ago that was
appealled successfully because a box junction didn't have 4 sides.
Having 2 boxes on one junction could also be suspect.
I'd reccommend asking on the forums at www.pepipoo.com as there are some very knowledgeable people
there on things like this.
Mike Harrison
>Knight Of The Road wrote in
>LL-dnWUTx4p...@bt.com:
>
>> "Dave" <david...@yahoo.com.au> wrote
>>
>> If you entered the box junction when your onward path was impeded by a
>> vehicle travelling in the same direction then you have committed an
>> offence.
>
>But that's not what the TSRGD2002 , SIGNIFICANCE OF BOX JUNCTION MARKINGS
>extract says:
>
> (2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person -
>
> (a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box
>junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and
Note also that it says ' box junction', not ' box markings'
I think there is a good argument that this is one 'box junction', despite multiple box markings, so
the argument that you stopped on the first box while traffic blocking the second is suspect.
> (b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from
>completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles *or other vehicles which are
>stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.*
And this does not say that the "other vehicles which are
stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn" need to be in the same marked box.
I can see plenty of scope for appeal here.
Mike Barnes
>I also have sympathy with the point of view that says that box junction
>markings should be erased, and *every* junction should a box junction.
... should *be* a box junction.
--
Mike Barnes
Ian
"Mike Barnes" wrote in message
Only for junctions covered by traffic lights, otherwise people turning left
from a side road will prevent traffic on the main road from proceeding into
the box. At least with traffic lights there is a break in the flow of left
turners, allowing the main road traffic to proceed.
Ian
John Rowland
>
> The two boxes (from the aerial photo) seem very seperate and well
> defined and clearly seek to enable two different carriageways of
> traffic to move freely.
> I think it's time to pay up!
Okay, but the paint on the junction is incredibly faint at the moment, no
matter what it was like a few years ago when the photo was taken.
> I imagine that
> hundreds of people must have been "caught" by this camera as I use it
> very regularly and have observed that many people "block" the junction
> where I did when wanting to turn right at the second box junction.
IMO the Cypriot people who inhabit the area seem unaware of what box
junctions are. Whenever you are waiting to enter a box junction in a Cypriot
part of London, people behind beep you. This doesn't happen anywhere else. I
guess this camera will quickly rectify the situation, but a few ads on
London Greek Radio would have also done the trick.... under the
circumstances, I suspect LGR would have done that for free, if asked.
> I
> guess the "powers that be" must have got their facts right (or they
> would face a flood of complaints and challenges to the fine).
Governments love people like you! There have been numerous instances of
safety camera partnerships extorting cash from innocents.
Normally I hate people who block box junctions (or any junctions), and love
to see them fined, but I really think you are hard done by here.
Mike Barnes
>"Mike Barnes" wrote in message
>> markings should be erased, and *every* junction should a box junction.
>>
>Only for junctions covered by traffic lights, otherwise people turning left
>from a side road will prevent traffic on the main road from proceeding into
>the box. At least with traffic lights there is a break in the flow of left
>turners, allowing the main road traffic to proceed.
Having thought it through a bit more, I think you're right. I routinely
avoid blocking junctions regardless of the existence of a box, *except*
that I don't mind blocking someone who's waiting to turn left into my
path. As law that would be unworkable, so the traffic light rule is a
good idea.
--
Mike Barnes
Daytona
<tims_n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>(Yes, I know that the HC is not definitative but for something
>as basic as this, I would expect it to be right)
It gets the turning right bit correct, but the straight ahead bit -
<URL:http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.rec.driving/browse_thread/thread/5eda0d84d2d3c7bf/0cbf1fa7eca0a774?&hl=en#0cbf1fa7eca0a774>
Daytona
Daytona
wrote:
>Having thought about this, I think this is the reason I have committed
>the offence. There are 2 separate box junctions separated by a very
>short strip (1 car length) which is not a box junction.
If you were in a segregated lane for right turning traffic you may
stand a chance in arguing that you entered the box junction for the
purpose of turning right ie it's bad road design. I'd certainly take
some advice from Pepipoo and Traffic Answers
<URL:http://www.traffic-answers.com/forum/index.php> and any legal
help you have on you car or house insurance policies (often bundled in
for free).
"Prohibition conveyed by markings in diagram 1043 or 1044
7. - (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in
paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall
each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to
enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box
junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any
person -
(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box
junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented
from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles
which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn."
See previous post -
<URL:http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.rec.driving/browse_thread/thread/5eda0d84d2d3c7bf/0cbf1fa7eca0a774?&hl=en#0cbf1fa7eca0a774>
Daytona
Chris J Dixon
>Thinking of box junctions, I've always wondered what the legal situation if
>you enter a box junction (going straight ahead) because there is a
>car-length space beyond the junction, and *then* after you've started to
>enter it, a car on your left turns left so as to occupy "your" space that
>was clear when you first entered the box. Obviously you can't be held
>responsible for a situation that has changed: you've abided by the rules in
>that you've waited until there was a gap beyond the box for you to move
>into, but someone has subsequently "stolen" it. But if there's a camera
>which only shows the situation after the car has gone ahead of you and with
>you on the box, how do you prove that the space was clear when you began the
>manoeuvre, unless there's also a photo from a second or so earlier?
>
Similarly, I have seen a junction where the road to the right was
clear at the time the light went green, but, right turning cars
having moved into the box, the left turners coming towards them
started to tail back, and even when the right filter came on, it
wasn't possible to clear the box.
Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
ch...@cdixon.me.uk
Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.
Jerry
"John Rowland" <jo...@journeyflow.spamspam.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eeluvo$2ej$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
> Jerry wrote:
>>
>> The two boxes (from the aerial photo) seem very seperate and well
>> defined and clearly seek to enable two different carriageways of
>> traffic to move freely.
>> I think it's time to pay up!
>
> Okay, but the paint on the junction is incredibly faint at the moment, no
> matter what it was like a few years ago when the photo was taken.
Point taken.
John Rowland
> "John Rowland" <jo...@journeyflow.spamspam.demon.co.uk> wrote in
> message news:eeluvo$2ej$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
>> Jerry wrote:
>>>
>>> I think it's time to pay up!
>>
>> Okay, but the paint on the junction is incredibly faint at the
>> moment, no matter what it was like a few years ago when the photo
>> was taken.
>
> Point taken.
Scratch that, I was there yesterday and it has been repainted in the last
few weeks, but I'm not sure exactly when.
Neil S
Chris J Dixon wrote:
>
> Similarly, I have seen a junction where the road to the right was
> clear at the time the light went green, but, right turning cars
> having moved into the box, the left turners coming towards them
> started to tail back, and even when the right filter came on, it
> wasn't possible to clear the box.
>
It was clear when he enetered the box but someone moved in front of
him.
The appeals organisation didn't accept the excuse, but he took it to
court and won. Or something. Sorry I can't find any reference to this
online.
Dave Plumb
> A406 North Circular Eastbound at the junction shown here:
>
> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=N22+8LY&ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=51.61
> 1821,-0.111569&spn=0.004344,0.014763&om=1&iwloc=A
>
> I have received a penalty notice (with photos) for "31 entering and
> stopping in a box junction when prohibited". I don't dispute
See http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?
in_article_id=415209&in_page_id=1770&ito=1490
Someone has appealed and the adjudicator agreed the junction was marked
wrongly as the markings do not run to the kerb.
D
Daytona
<g> more than one way to skin a cat......
It'll be interesting to see whether the cunts contact you - let us
know.
Daytona
Periander
news:1158525949.3...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
...
> blocked by other traffic turning right. I thought that the rules on
> stopping in box junctions were that you were allowed to stop if you
> were turning right?
Yes, but only if the exit is clear, I don't have the time or inclination
fraid to say to find you a reference but the actual law says that you
cannot enter a box junction when your exit is blocked. Just asin the case
of (for instance) go straight ahead over a box junction then stop and wait
in the junction for your exit in front of you to clear you can't wait to
turn right if your propsed exit is blocked.
If of course your exit was clear when you were photographed then come back
to the group and I have no doubt someone will point you to the correct
legislation should the council not bin the ticket.
--
Regards or otherwise,
Periander
Alex Heney
wrote:
Rather a long time after the OP to reply?
But you also are not allowed to enter the box junction if your way is
blocked by traffic already in it.
You can enter and wait to turn right if you are the first car doing so
and are only blocked by oncoming traffic, but you cannot enter to
queue behind another car doing that.
Which is what the O: had done.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Ability is a good thing but stability is even better.
To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTplusDOTcom
Periander
news:rkp4l2hh6dp79er6k...@4ax.com:
> On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 23:02:54 GMT, Periander <4rub...@britwar.co.uk>
...
>
> Rather a long time after the OP to reply?
Gosh, yes, I've been away for a month or two and I just trying to catch up.
> But you also are not allowed to enter the box junction if your way is
> blocked by traffic already in it.
>
> You can enter and wait to turn right if you are the first car doing so
> and are only blocked by oncoming traffic, but you cannot enter to
> queue behind another car doing that.
>
> Which is what the O: had done.
ha ha it all becomes clear.
John Rowland
>
> But you also are not allowed to enter the box junction if your way is
> blocked by traffic already in it.
>
> You can enter and wait to turn right if you are the first car doing so
> and are only blocked by oncoming traffic, but you cannot enter to
> queue behind another car doing that.
I believe you can.
> Which is what the O: had done.
No, the OP mistook the double box junction for a single one. He queued on
the first box junction when he was waiting to turn right in the second.
Alex Heney
<jo...@journeyflow.spamspam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Alex Heney wrote:
>>
>> But you also are not allowed to enter the box junction if your way is
>> blocked by traffic already in it.
>>
>> You can enter and wait to turn right if you are the first car doing so
>> and are only blocked by oncoming traffic, but you cannot enter to
>> queue behind another car doing that.
>
>I believe you can.
Hmmm.
You are right.
I had remembered wrongly what you are allowed to do.
-------------------------------------------
Prohibition conveyed by markings in diagram 1043 or 1044
7. - (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in
paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall
each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to
enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box
junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any
person -
(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box
junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented
from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles
which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
-------------------------------------------
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
One man's error is another man's data.
inquiziter
<m...@privacy.net> wrote :
(1) does not apply to any -person -
^^^^^
(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box
junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented
from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles
which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
Explain that to me again?
Esp this bit ........ (1) does not apply to any person - so long as
it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or
other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right
turn.
Is that not why we have such loooong 'boxes?
I believe you were right the first time:)
Inq
inquiziter
<david...@yahoo.com.au> wrote :
>Hi guys,
>
>I'd like to clarify the rules on box junctions and what is allowed.
>I received a penalty notice relating to a junction on the A406 North
>Circular Road - the Bows Road/Green Lanes junction.
>
>I was travelling north from Green Lanes, and turning right onto the
>A406 North Circular Eastbound at the junction shown here:
>
>http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=N22+8LY&ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=51.611821,-0.111569&spn=0.004344,0.014763&om=1&iwloc=A
Is this right...... and are you in the position of the Blue square?
http://i14.tinypic.com/4h2jo0k.jpg
inquiziter
<david...@yahoo.com.au> wrote :
>Hi guys,
>
>I'd like to clarify the rules on box junctions and what is allowed.
>I received a penalty notice relating to a junction on the A406 North
>Circular Road - the Bows Road/Green Lanes junction.
>
>I was travelling north from Green Lanes, and turning right onto the
>A406 North Circular Eastbound at the junction shown here:
>
>http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=N22+8LY&ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=51.611821,-0.111569&spn=0.004344,0.014763&om=1&iwloc=A
>
If you were in this Box (purple) then you were Wrong
http://i14.tinypic.com/4h2jo0k.jpg
That box does not have a right turn
Thus you should not have stopped in it
*********
I did this in two posts so each box does not get confused.
Aint Google Earth wonderful
inquiziter
<david...@yahoo.com.au> wrote :
>Hi guys,
>
>I'd like to clarify the rules on box junctions and what is allowed.
>I received a penalty notice relating to a junction on the A406 North
>Circular Road - the Bows Road/Green Lanes junction.
>
>I was travelling north from Green Lanes, and turning right onto the
>A406 North Circular Eastbound at the junction shown here:
>
>http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=N22+8LY&ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=51.611821,-0.111569&spn=0.004344,0.014763&om=1&iwloc=A
>
If you were in this Box (purple) then you were Wrong
http://i13.tinypic.com/2lxffip.jpg
That box does not have a right turn
Thus you should not have stopped in it
Opps.. wrong picture Now corrected
... and I know it is a long time old post that has been answered but
someone dragged it up questioned the rule.
And the pictures speak a thousand words or two.
inquiziter
<m...@privacy.net> wrote :
>On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 00:27:13 -0000, "John Rowland"
><jo...@journeyflow.spamspam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Alex Heney wrote:
>>>
would have been Nice to know IF jerry got off with it or not ??
or even if he was the person in th news link given earlier?
It is the same junction and same offence.
If he got done? then he too should appeal ASP
Marconi
"inquiziter" <inqui...@SPAMOUTntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:vbf6l2li0k7v1b3d7...@4ax.com...
I'm confused. Where is "purple"?
Simon Hobson
(in message <7d25l2dhk0dbvt7ug...@4ax.com>):
> cause a vehicle to
> enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box
> junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
Now there's a bit of wording open to interpretation ...
... but your Honour, at the moment I entered the boxed area, there were no
stationary vehicles - all the vehicles introduced by the prosecution as cause
for me to not enter the boxed area were in motion. When they became
stationary, I was already wintin the boxed area and therefore did not "enter"
the boxed area when there were stationary vehicles to prevent me exiting the
area without stopping.
And no, I don't plan to try that one out either !
Alex Heney
inquiziter<inqui...@SPAMOUTntlworld.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 01:52:45 +0000, in uk.legal Alex Heney
><m...@privacy.net> wrote :
>
<snip>
>
> (1) does not apply to any -person -
> ^^^^^
>(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box
>junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and
>
>(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented
>from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles
>which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
>
>Explain that to me again?
>
>Esp this bit ........ (1) does not apply to any person - so long as
>it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or
>other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right
>turn.
>
>Is that not why we have such loooong 'boxes?
>
>I believe you were right the first time:)
>
No. Initially, I said that you were allowed to enter if turning right
and only stopped by oncoming traffic, but that you were NOT allowed to
enter if you were turning right and it would mean you queuing behind
traffic waiting to turn right.
I was wrong about the latter.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious
Nick Finnigan
> On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 1:52:45 +0000, Alex Heney wrote
> (in message <7d25l2dhk0dbvt7ug...@4ax.com>):
>
>
>>cause a vehicle to
>>enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box
>>junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
>
>
> Now there's a bit of wording open to interpretation ...
>
> for me to not enter the boxed area were in motion. When they became
> stationary, I was already wintin the boxed area and therefore did not "enter"
> the boxed area when there were stationary vehicles to prevent me exiting the
> area without stopping.
>
> And no, I don't plan to try that one out either !
Good, because it is wrong. It doesn't matter whether the vehicles were
stationary when you entered, only whether you stopped because there were
stationary vehicles. Better to argue that you stopped to call someone.
Alex Heney
This leads to an interesting hypothetical :-)
If the OP was in the lower box on that picture, trying to (illegally)
turn right from that box, then he would not be breaking the Yellow Box
rules, although if he went through with the manoeuvre, he would be
disobeying other road signs.
Can the cameras only be used for yellow box offences, or would they
just prosecute for ignoring the signs if he claimed to have been
waiting to turn right?
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
The world is a stage, but the play is badly cast.
Alex Heney
maybe, but you have linked to the same photo twice :-)
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Democracy: the demand of the stupid that they rule over the intelligent because there are more of them
inquiziter
<m...@privacy.net> wrote :
WTF??
LOL
it is simple
you can enter the box to turn right even if another vehicle is in
that box, 'If' your exit is clear to drive into! irrelevant of on
coming traffic.
or if you like;
as many cars as likes can enter the box if their exit road is clear
and the only reason they cannot actually turn right is because of
on-coming traffic
or if you like;
you are not allowed to enter the box if the road 'that' you are
turning into is blocked by anything other than on coming traffic
or
If you don't like that; take another route.
inquiziter
<m...@privacy.net> wrote :
>On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 14:37:43 GMT,
>inquiziter<inqui...@SPAMOUTntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>On 17 Sep 2006 13:45:49 -0700, in uk.legal "Dave"
>><david...@yahoo.com.au> wrote :
>>
>>>Hi guys,
>>>
>>>I'd like to clarify the rules on box junctions and what is allowed.
>>>I received a penalty notice relating to a junction on the A406 North
>>>Circular Road - the Bows Road/Green Lanes junction.
>>>
>>>I was travelling north from Green Lanes, and turning right onto the
>>>A406 North Circular Eastbound at the junction shown here:
>>>
>>>http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=N22+8LY&ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=51.611821,-0.111569&spn=0.004344,0.014763&om=1&iwloc=A
>>
>>
>>Is this right...... and are you in the position of the Blue square?
>>
>>http://i14.tinypic.com/4h2jo0k.jpg
>>
>
>This leads to an interesting hypothetical :-)
>
>If the OP was in the lower box on that picture, trying to (illegally)
>turn right from that box, then he would not be breaking the Yellow Box
>rules, although if he went through with the manoeuvre, he would be
>disobeying other road signs.
>
>Can the cameras only be used for yellow box offences, or would they
>just prosecute for ignoring the signs if he claimed to have been
>waiting to turn right?
Trust you :-)
Let me check the thread header. no it is not TV:(
Well yes he would be breaking the law, because his exit road would
not be clear. ok don't tell me it would be at 3 am when there was
little or no traffic ?
and also of course we have to take into account that the real right
exit was also not blocked?
inquiziter
<m...@privacy.net> wrote :
>On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 14:42:53 GMT,
>inquiziter<inqui...@SPAMOUTntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>On 17 Sep 2006 13:45:49 -0700, in uk.legal "Dave"
>><david...@yahoo.com.au> wrote :
>>
>>>Hi guys,
>>>
>>>I'd like to clarify the rules on box junctions and what is allowed.
>>>I received a penalty notice relating to a junction on the A406 North
>>>Circular Road - the Bows Road/Green Lanes junction.
>>>
>>>I was travelling north from Green Lanes, and turning right onto the
>>>A406 North Circular Eastbound at the junction shown here:
>>>
>>>http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=N22+8LY&ie=UTF8&z=17&ll=51.611821,-0.111569&spn=0.004344,0.014763&om=1&iwloc=A
>>>
>>
>>If you were in this Box (purple) then you were Wrong
>>
>>http://i14.tinypic.com/4h2jo0k.jpg
>>
>>That box does not have a right turn
>>Thus you should not have stopped in it
>>
>>
>>*********
>>I did this in two posts so each box does not get confused.
>>
>>Aint Google Earth wonderful
>>
>
>maybe, but you have linked to the same photo twice :-)
Yea I know.... but i did correct it quick
Sorry, about that self imposed confused cock-up :-)
I am never wrong !!!
but I never said I was infallibleeee.
Nick Finnigan
>
> If the OP was in the lower box on that picture, trying to (illegally)
> turn right from that box, then he would not be breaking the Yellow Box
> rules, although if he went through with the manoeuvre, he would be
> disobeying other road signs.
He would have to be blocked by oncoming traffic though.
And I can't tell whether there actually are 'No Entry' or 'No Right
Turn' signs where you expect them to be. There seem to be 'Straight on
or turn Right' arrows on approach which would lead you to think you can.
I think a long vehicle might find that junction impossible.
Dave
Dave Plumb wrote:
Thanks for the tip. I will phone TFL tomorrow and try and get a
refund!
Cheers for the tip off.
David
Daytona
wrote:
Sorry David, I'd assumed that it was you who'd posted the update,
otherwise I'd have emailed you to let you know. Lucky you were still
watching the thread <g> !
Given that you've got a sure-fire reason for getting your ticket
overturned at any time, it would be interesting to wait and see if
they contact you, as any honest organisation that's made a mistake
should do.....
Let us know !
Cheers
Daytona
Dave
Daytona wrote:
> >
> >David
>
> Sorry David, I'd assumed that it was you who'd posted the update,
> otherwise I'd have emailed you to let you know. Lucky you were still
> watching the thread <g> !
>
> Given that you've got a sure-fire reason for getting your ticket
> overturned at any time, it would be interesting to wait and see if
> they contact you, as any honest organisation that's made a mistake
> should do.....
>
> Let us know !
>
to be pro-active in giving refunds this. I note that the article
mentions that "This week, the adjudicator agreed with Dr Fielden, 46,
of Cheshunt, and quashed one of her fines." Why was only one fine
refunded when she had received 3 "Dr Krystyna Fielden was shocked to
receive three £100 fines along with CCTV images of her offences"
So I have written to TfL asking them if they will be refunding my fine,
or if not, what is the appeals process (as my circumstances seem to be
the same as I was turning right and the camera photo clearly shows
this, indicator lights and all).
I'll let you know the outcome, and if any of the others who have got
a fine have news, please post it here? (Haringey have raised over £3
million last year from offence fines I seem to remember reading on her
recently.)
Cheers,
David
John Rowland
>
> (Haringey have raised over £3
> million last year from offence fines I seem to remember reading on her
> recently.)
This junction is in Enfield, not Haringey.
Krystyna
Dave Wrote:
> Daytona wrote:--
>
> David-
>
> Sorry David, I'd assumed that it was you who'd posted the update,
> otherwise I'd have emailed you to let you know. Lucky you were still
> watching the thread g !
>
> Given that you've got a sure-fire reason for getting your ticket
> overturned at any time, it would be interesting to wait and see if
> they contact you, as any honest organisation that's made a mistake
> should do.....
>
> Let us know !
> While it would be interesting to wait and see, I'm not counting on TfL
> to be pro-active in giving refunds this. I note that the article
> mentions that "This week, the adjudicator agreed with Dr Fielden, 46,
> of Cheshunt, and quashed one of her fines." Why was only one fine
> refunded when she had received 3 "Dr Krystyna Fielden was shocked to
> receive three £100 fines along with CCTV images of her offences"
>
> So I have written to TfL asking them if they will be refunding my
> fine,
> or if not, what is the appeals process (as my circumstances seem to be
> the same as I was turning right and the camera photo clearly shows
> this, indicator lights and all).
>
> I'll let you know the outcome, and if any of the others who have got
> a fine have news, please post it here? (Haringey have raised over £3
> million last year from offence fines I seem to remember reading on her
> recently.)
>
> Cheers,
>
> David
Too all fine payers!
Following my refund on the one fine, I then went on to appeal against
my other two fines. which I have consequently won. I did not appeal
against all fines together because it would have been a lot of money
lost if I had lost all three cases. I am currently setting up a service
to help get other fines back from this junction on behalf of the people
who received the fines.
If you are interested in this or for more information please visit:
www.myspace.com/yellowboxtrap
Dr Krystyna Fielden
--
Krystyna
Colin Wilson
> www.myspace.com/yellowboxtrap
It might help if the newspaper article was readable, or you had a better
diagram of the circumstances available.
Martin
Colin Wilson
> > diagram of the circumstances available.
> The link her blog shows
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=415209&in_page_id=1770
I noticed that shortly afterwards - clicking the thumbnail takes you
somewhere completely different though :-}
Martin
She seems to have good support from DM readers.
Wonder what the support would be if she'd stood up to a police search
for drugs and got compensation/fine overturned.
Of course DM readers all drive big cars and don't smoke pot. And now I'm
about to atart another pointless discussion lol
Daytona
<Krystyn...@legalbanter.co.uk> wrote:
>If you are interested in this or for more information please visit:
>www.myspace.com/yellowboxtrap
>
>Dr Krystyna Fielden
Good work on finding the discussion in this group !
To add comments, people need to sign up to MySpace, perhaps it would
be better to use <URL:http://www.blogger.com/>
It would be useful if you provide links to the TfL complaints
procedure and the small claims court procedure if applicable -
<URL:http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_rights/legal_system/small_claims.htm>
Daytona