Colour coding of fuel nozzles at filling stations
Ian Fitter
ie Red - 4 star, Green unleaded, Black - Diesel.
My business partner has tonight filled up the van at a major
supermarket chain from a black nozzled pump (assuming it was diesel)
and then realised 50yds down the road that it was petrol.
The store manageress was very off-hand, saying that they do not sell
diesel and brought out a colleague who she said was studying law, and
that there is no requirement for nozzles to be colour coded.
Can anyone confirm whether this is true and whether we have any
recompense against the filling station.
--
Ian Fitter
Warrington, Cheshire (UK)
------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Fitter
>Is there a standard for the colour coding of petrol pumps,
>
>ie Red - 4 star, Green unleaded, Black - Diesel.
>
>My business partner has tonight filled up the van at a major
>supermarket chain from a black nozzled pump (assuming it was diesel)
>and then realised 50yds down the road that it was petrol.
>
>The store manageress was very off-hand, saying that they do not sell
>diesel and brought out a colleague who she said was studying law, and
>that there is no requirement for nozzles to be colour coded.
>
>Can anyone confirm whether this is true and whether we have any
>recompense against the filling station.
I should add that the pump, hose and nozzle were all black.
DShep10
In article <362ddd28....@news.u-net.com>, ia...@icf.u-net.com (Ian Fitter)
writes:
>My business partner has tonight filled up the van at a major
>supermarket chain from a black nozzled pump (assuming it was diesel)
>and then realised 50yds down the road that it was petrol.
Didn't s/he check what it said? If it was labelled wrongly then there might be
a possibility of something - otherwise I doubt it.
Derek
Julie
net.com> writes
>Is there a standard for the colour coding of petrol pumps,
>
>ie Red - 4 star, Green unleaded, Black - Diesel.
>
>
I've been caught out in a similar way when in a hurry and not paying
attention. I think that there should be a standard colour for the pumps,
it would make life easier.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Julie
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan H Jones
net.com> writes
>ia...@icf.u-net.com (Ian Fitter) wrote:
>
>>Is there a standard for the colour coding of petrol pumps,
>>
>>ie Red - 4 star, Green unleaded, Black - Diesel.
>>
>>supermarket chain from a black nozzled pump (assuming it was diesel)
I wonder how many people, after getting themselves in to trouble, say,
"Well, I assumed..."
>>and then realised 50yds down the road that it was petrol.
Oh dear! Well at least you and your business partner have now learned
one of the basic rules of survival, although at some cost. NEVER ASSUME
ANYTHING! Read the labels.
(Sorry to sound unsympathetic: I'm not.)
>>
>>The store manageress was very off-hand, saying that they do not sell
>>diesel and brought out a colleague who she said was studying law, and
>>that there is no requirement for nozzles to be colour coded.
Could be correct: I don't know. But if your partner had read the labels
and instructions, he/she would have been covered if the wrong type of
fuel had then been delivered.
RTFM (Read The F**king Manual) is always a good idea!
--
*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
# Alan H Jones * In the alloted span of man #
# * God takes no account #
# Manchester UK * of time spent fishing. #
*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
Martin Tom Brown
Jul...@locomotive.com "Julie" wrote:
> In article <362ddd28....@news.u-net.com>, Ian Fitter <ianf@icf.u-
> net.com> writes
> >Is there a standard for the colour coding of petrol pumps,
> >
> >ie Red - 4 star, Green unleaded, Black - Diesel.
> >
> You will find that in some petrol stations, the pump for Diesel is blue.
> I've been caught out in a similar way when in a hurry and not paying
> attention. I think that there should be a standard colour for the pumps,
> it would make life easier.
You should bear in mind a significant proportion of the population
is red/green colour blind before suggesting this colour coding.
I doubt there is much that can be done to protect people who
fail to pay attention to what they are doing in petrol stations.
Perhaps square, triangular and round pipes could be used ;-)
Regards,
--
Martin Brown <mar...@nezumi.demon.co.uk> __ CIS: 71651,470
Scientific Software Consultancy /^,,)__/
Ken
wrote:
>Is there a standard for the colour coding of petrol pumps,
>
>ie Red - 4 star, Green unleaded, Black - Diesel.
>
>My business partner has tonight filled up the van at a major
>supermarket chain from a black nozzled pump (assuming it was diesel)
>and then realised 50yds down the road that it was petrol.
>
>The store manageress was very off-hand, saying that they do not sell
>diesel and brought out a colleague who she said was studying law, and
>that there is no requirement for nozzles to be colour coded.
>
>Can anyone confirm whether this is true and whether we have any
>recompense against the filling station.
>
>--
>Ian Fitter
>Warrington, Cheshire (UK)
There is no standard colour coding for different fuel grades, however
there is a requirement for nozzles of different grades to be different
colours.
This requirement is not in regulations but will be found in the
Certificate or 'Pattern' of Approval for the fuel dispenser unit. The
way this works is that manufacturers have to submit equipment to the
Secretary of State before it can be 'used for trade'.
When approved it must be installed only in the fashion described in
the certificate, or it will not be passed as fit for use for trade by
the Weights and Measures Inspector.
For the situation you describe you should complain to your local
Trading Standards Office, details can be found at
www.xodesign.co.uk/tsnet/pages/lalist.htm
Here is an extract from a pattern for a Gilbarco 6 meter dispenser
Cert No 1928:
CERTIFICATION No 1928/4
1928/4 Valid until 19 December 2005 (R WM518) Code Index III(5)a
Submitted by: Gilbarco Ltd
As described in Certificate No 1928 but having a dispenser with 6
nozzles and 6 independent metering systems as shown in Figure 1. The
dispenser is arranged with 3 nozzles on each side with the transaction
data for the nozzles on each side only shown on the displays on the
appropriate side of the computing and display head. Any of 3 grades
of fuel can be delivered from each side of the dispenser. Only one
nozzle per side can be used at any one time.
The relevant part dealing with colour coding is:
3.4.2 The illuminated product description area of the computing and
display head shall be divided vertically into three sections, as
nearly equal as possible, with each section containing a description
of the associated product. This description area being of the same
general colour as the associated anti-kink sleeve immediately behind
the nozzle. None of these sections shall be the same colour unless
the associated product dispensed from any of the nozzles is the same.
Ken Daly
Trading Standards Net
www.xodesign.co.uk/tsnet/
Paul Gardner
<Jul...@locomotive.com> wrote
>>
>>ie Red - 4 star, Green unleaded, Black - Diesel.
>>
>>
>I've been caught out in a similar way when in a hurry and not paying
>attention. I think that there should be a standard colour for the pumps,
>it would make life easier.
I filled up my car with four-star this morning using a BLUE pump. I'm
frankly amazed that people would rely on the colour of the pump alone
and not check the label and the meter. Sheesh!
--
Paul Gardner
John Wilson
are called eyes and there are two on the front of your head.
Sorry to be so blunt, but there it is. The truth hurts!
Why not point your browser at www.advicenet.com?
It's spiffing good stuff.
(I'm far too modest to tell you who writes it all.)
Ken
John, if this is the standard of advice that your clients can expect
from 'Advicenet' or Wislon solicitors then you will surely go broke
very quickly.
Also having had a very brief glance at what few pages of your pages
have actually been completed there are some rather glaring omissions
or mistakes.
Ken
Trading Standards Net
www.xodesign.co.uk/tsnet/
A
wrote:
>My business partner has tonight filled up the van at a major
>supermarket chain from a black nozzled pump (assuming it was diesel)
>and then realised 50yds down the road that it was petrol.
A diesel nozzle is supposed to be a different size to petrol nozzles
I've been told. As I've never used diesel I cannot confirm this
myself. The idea is such that diesel nozzle won't fit in a fuel tank
for petrol, or is it vice versa? I can't remember now.
>The store manageress was very off-hand, saying that they do not sell
>diesel and brought out a colleague who she said was studying law, and
>that there is no requirement for nozzles to be colour coded.
If the colleague was really studying law I would have thought they
would have been more likely to say that the filling station has a duty
to correctly label the different fuels, but not cannot prevent you
from picking the wrong flavour of fuel. Your colleague really ought to
have checked he was selecting the correct fuel type.
I have noticed sometimes that nozzles end other equipment are mixed
and matched. I always check on the pump.
In my own experience, 100% of misfortunes I've ever experienced have
been in petrol stations run by supermarkets, including some
potentially serious Health and Safety breaches, which is why I don't
use them at all. Other petrol stations are always the same price or
less in the areas I drive. I took one such incident up with the
supermarkets head office (it wasn't Sainsbury, it was the other one)
who just didn't seem to care less about the safety of ther customers.
Hence I don't use their supermarkets either.
A n f o r
Ian Fitter
>You should bear in mind a significant proportion of the population
>is red/green colour blind before suggesting this colour coding.
>I doubt there is much that can be done to protect people who
>fail to pay attention to what they are doing in petrol stations.
And a greater proportion cannot read. (not the case in this case)
--
Ian Fitter
Warrington, Cheshire (UK)
------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Fitter
>In article <jFcWiRA5...@locomotive.com>, Julie
>I filled up my car with four-star this morning using a BLUE pump. I'm
>frankly amazed that people would rely on the colour of the pump alone
>and not check the label and the meter. Sheesh!
Oh how easy that is to say after the event.
The only label, by the way, turned out to be an inch square.
Given that the *same* supermarket chain a few miles down the road
*does* use the Red/Green/Black convention, what would you expect?
Ian Fitter
[useful info snipped]
Thanks Ken, some very useful info there. Makes a change from some of
the less than useful comments posted here.
Paul Gardner
net.com> wrote
>Paul Gardner <ukmisc@DELETE_THIS.bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <jFcWiRA5...@locomotive.com>, Julie
>
>>I filled up my car with four-star this morning using a BLUE pump. I'm
>>frankly amazed that people would rely on the colour of the pump alone
>>and not check the label and the meter. Sheesh!
>
>Oh how easy that is to say after the event.
Fortunately, I checked the label *before* starting the pump.
>The only label, by the way, turned out to be an inch square.
What about the display on the meter? As well as indicating the price, it
is supposed to display the fuel type. If it doesn't, then your local TSO
would certainly be interested.
>Given that the *same* supermarket chain a few miles down the road
>*does* use the Red/Green/Black convention, what would you expect?
Well, that strengthens your case a tad. Nonetheless, I still wouldn't
rely on a colour coding that is by no means standardised.
--
Paul Gardner
Paul Gardner
<ali...@bh.bbc.co.******uk> wrote
>A diesel nozzle is supposed to be a different size to petrol nozzles
>I've been told. As I've never used diesel I cannot confirm this
>myself. The idea is such that diesel nozzle won't fit in a fuel tank
>for petrol, or is it vice versa? I can't remember now.
Haven't heard that one. However, the nozzles for unleaded and four star
are certainly different sizes. A four-star nozzle will not fit a modern
car's fuel tank.
--
Paul Gardner
Andy McGrath
>If the colleague was really studying law I would have thought they
>would have been more likely to say that the filling station has a duty
>to correctly label the different fuels,
The Trade Decsriptions Act 1968 works the other way round. It
prohibits false or misleading statements. It doesn't require a trader
to give a description.
Andy
John Wilson
she didn't read the pump right? I can imagine the sort of comment that would
generate in the press (just like the drunk who sued the landlord because he
fell off the barstool).
I can't abide lawyers who tell their clients what they want to hear. As far
as I am concerned clients hire us to tell them the truth, not to generate
fees by leading them on. That's the basis I have always worked on and I
ain't bust yet.
I also sign all my postings with my own name. Come on Ken, don't be so shy!
The world wants to know the source of all this wisdom!
John Boyle
Brown <Mar...@nezumi.demon.co.uk> writes
>Perhaps square, triangular and round pipes could be used ;-)
But would I need a plastic table with square, triangular and round
holes and a rubber hammer?
--
John Boyle
Ken
eh?
Sorry John but I'm not a lawyer, and I don't think I implied that the
original poster should have sued anyone - I merely provided the
information which Ian had asked for, essentially:
'Is there a standard for the colour coding of petrol pumps'
- far more useful than the facetious remarks which you and most
others had posted in your ignorance.
As to my name, had you bothered to read my original answer you would
know it...if in fact it is at all relevant!
Dave Mayall
>
> On Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:45:51 +0100, "John Wilson"
> <wilsonsolicitors.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >There is a system for seeing what the fuel is before you put it in - they
> >are called eyes and there are two on the front of your head.
> >
> >Sorry to be so blunt, but there it is. The truth hurts!
> John, if this is the standard of advice that your clients can expect
> from 'Advicenet' or Wislon solicitors then you will surely go broke
> very quickly.
Whilst the advice given may not be good for the enrichment of the
legal profession, it is still good advice.
People who mistakes pay for them, they should not look to find somebody
else to blame.
--
Dave Mayall
The views expressed are mine and may not be those of my employer
Private e-mail to david....@ukonline.co.uk please
Dave Mayall
> You will find that in some petrol stations, the pump for Diesel is blue.
> I've been caught out in a similar way when in a hurry and not paying
> attention. I think that there should be a standard colour for the pumps,
> it would make life easier.
Alternatively, people could take sufficient care to select the correct
pump.
What strikes me most about this thread is the presumption that
somebody else should take responsibility for you getting the correct
grade of fuel.
Have we really come to the stage where a sufficient percentage of the
population are so lacking in brains that we must all be lead through
life by nanny.
Dave Mayall
>
> the-...@fusa.net (Ken) wrote:
>
> [useful info snipped]
>
> Thanks Ken, some very useful info there. Makes a change from some of
> the less than useful comments posted here.
ITYM the comments which didn't suit what you wanted to hear.
Ian Fitter
>Ian Fitter wrote:
>>
>> the-...@fusa.net (Ken) wrote:
>>
>> [useful info snipped]
>>
>> Thanks Ken, some very useful info there. Makes a change from some of
>> the less than useful comments posted here.
>
>ITYM the comments which didn't suit what you wanted to hear.
OK, I'll be blunt - Makes a change from the unnecessarily *derogatory*
remarks posted here.
Remarks which state the facts e.g. that the law states that the fuel
station need only provide a label on the readout, although not
necessarily being what I would like to have heard, *are* useful.
I asked the question as to whether there was a standard colour coding
to which filling stations should adhere. I didn't ask for abuse.
John Wilson
academic curiosity about _other_ peoples' responsibilities.
I am sorry Ian, I accept bluntness is a vice too; my mitigation is that at
least I know I have it. But are you seriously trying to tell us that your
request was not a cry to be reassured that it wasn't really your fault?
For what it is worth I do think we get nannied too much and this encourages
us to think this way. What the heck, we all make mistakes occasionally; it
is no big deal. Why try to blame the poor garage proprietor?
The opinions expressed in this posting are not necessarily those of my
brain.
Charles Bryant
Martin Tom Brown <Mar...@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On Friday, in article <jFcWiRA5...@locomotive.com>
> Jul...@locomotive.com "Julie" wrote:
>> it would make life easier.
>
>is red/green colour blind before suggesting this colour coding.
>I doubt there is much that can be done to protect people who
>fail to pay attention to what they are doing in petrol stations.
>
The obvious solution is either to make all the pumps the same colour,
or to have colours assigned at random for each pump. This would
ensure that people didn't develop the expectation that they could
tell which was which without reading the label.
Dave Mayall
> Remarks which state the facts e.g. that the law states that the fuel
> station need only provide a label on the readout, although not
> necessarily being what I would like to have heard, *are* useful.
>
> I asked the question as to whether there was a standard colour coding
> to which filling stations should adhere. I didn't ask for abuse.
You asked that question, fair enough, and you received answers to
that question.
But you asked the question with a view to holding the Petrol
Station responsible for your partner having made a mistake.
You were looking for an excuse to transfer blame to somebody
else.
People who go fishing for ways to make others pay for their own
stupidity shouldn't be surprised if they get somewhat forthright
responses to their questions.
Andy McGrath
<n17510...@chch.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>The obvious solution is either to make all the pumps the same colour,
>or to have colours assigned at random for each pump. This would
>ensure that people didn't develop the expectation that they could
>tell which was which without reading the label.
It would be easier to have mndatory colour coding rather than random
assigned colours.
Andy
Paul Wolff
<amcg...@easynet.co.uk> writes
--
Obiter scripta - Paul Wolff
Dave Mayall
>
> On 2 Nov 1998 01:17:18 -0000, Charles Bryant
> <n17510...@chch.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >The obvious solution is either to make all the pumps the same colour,
> >or to have colours assigned at random for each pump. This would
> >ensure that people didn't develop the expectation that they could
> >tell which was which without reading the label.
>
> It would be easier to have mndatory colour coding rather than random
> assigned colours.
And it would be better if people started thinking, instead of expecting
everything to be done for them.
John Boyle
><n17510...@chch.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>The obvious solution is either to make all the pumps the same colour,
>>or to have colours assigned at random for each pump. This would
>>ensure that people didn't develop the expectation that they could
>>tell which was which without reading the label.
>
>It would be easier to have mndatory colour coding rather than random
>assigned colours.
Nah, its best to use an absolutely definite method that won't need
anybody to learn new colour codes. I suggest we used 'words' on
the pump. They seem to work quite well.
--
John Boyle
Andy McGrath
<may...@postoffice.co.uk> wrote:
>Andy McGrath wrote:
>>
>> On 2 Nov 1998 01:17:18 -0000, Charles Bryant
>> <n17510...@chch.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >The obvious solution is either to make all the pumps the same colour,
>> >or to have colours assigned at random for each pump. This would
>> >ensure that people didn't develop the expectation that they could
>> >tell which was which without reading the label.
>>
>> It would be easier to have mndatory colour coding rather than random
>> assigned colours.
>
>And it would be better if people started thinking, instead of expecting
>everything to be done for them.
It must be nice never to slip up. What's wrong with a system that
minimises the chance of putting the wrong fuel in?
I presume that you would consider all forrms of consumer information
as unneccessary.
Andy
Andy
John Boyle
McGrath <amcg...@easynet.co.uk> writes
>On Wed, 04 Nov 1998 13:16:21 +0000, Dave Mayall
><may...@postoffice.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Andy McGrath wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2 Nov 1998 01:17:18 -0000, Charles Bryant
>>> <n17510...@chch.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >The obvious solution is either to make all the pumps the same
>colour,
>>> >or to have colours assigned at random for each pump. This would
>>> >ensure that people didn't develop the expectation that they could
>>> >tell which was which without reading the label.
>>>
>>> It would be easier to have mndatory colour coding rather than random
>>> assigned colours.
>>
>>And it would be better if people started thinking, instead of expecting
>>everything to be done for them.
>
>It must be nice never to slip up. What's wrong with a system that
>minimises the chance of putting the wrong fuel in?
>
But would a colour code achieve this?
I must support Mr Mayall here. Just how far do you take 'consumer
protection'. Does the consumer have no obligation at all? Aren't
the word DIESEL, UNLEADED, and LEADED enough? Colour
codes only complicate matters don't they? Do you know any colour
code that works?
>I presume that you would consider all forrms of consumer information
>as unneccessary.
How on earth do you come to this conclusion based on the posts
he has made?!*&??
--
John Boyle
Denis McMahon
McGrath) wrote:
>On Wed, 04 Nov 1998 13:16:21 +0000, Dave Mayall
><may...@postoffice.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Andy McGrath wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2 Nov 1998 01:17:18 -0000, Charles Bryant
>>> <n17510...@chch.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> >The obvious solution is either to make all the pumps the same colour,
>>> >or to have colours assigned at random for each pump. This would
>>> >ensure that people didn't develop the expectation that they could
>>> >tell which was which without reading the label.
>>>
>>> It would be easier to have mndatory colour coding rather than random
>>> assigned colours.
>>
>>And it would be better if people started thinking, instead of expecting
>>everything to be done for them.
>
>It must be nice never to slip up. What's wrong with a system that
>minimises the chance of putting the wrong fuel in?
Nothing - what happens when you go abroad, either rentinbg a vehicle
or driving your own, and they don't use the same colours. Maybe black
for unleaded and green for diesel?
Now whose fault is it?
Or are you proposing an international solution - in which case just
sit back and wait for the UN to agree on a suitable colour scheme
......
>I presume that you would consider all forrms of consumer information
>as unneccessary.
I believe there is consumer information on the pumps as to which fuel
is dispensed from which nozzle.
Rgds
Denis
Note - I am not a member of the legal profession. The content of
this message is laymans comment and must be treated as such. This
message is not intended as professional advice of any sort.
Jon Rouse
>
>
> But would a colour code achieve this?
>
> I must support Mr Mayall here. Just how far do you take 'consumer
> protection'. Does the consumer have no obligation at all? Aren't
> the word DIESEL, UNLEADED, and LEADED enough? Colour
> codes only complicate matters don't they? Do you know any colour
> code that works?
The British Standard colour coding for pipework is very effective. Its
useful to know whether or not a pipe is carrying high pressure steam,
gas, or cold water (or indeed is not a pipe at all but a safety railing)
before you tap into it.
In my own line of work I used to find that tradesmen tended to avoid
cutting through thick Ethernet cables as they were the same colour as
gas pipes, which was quite useful. On the other hand Type 1 cables in a
dull shade of black always seemd to get nailed by plumbers. (Why was it
always plumbers, and why nails?)
However returning to the topic in hand, I always seem to end up at the
island with the super unleaded rather than the bog-standard stuff. The
colour coding helps, and I can't see it being a disadvantage, but you
still need to read the labels.
--
The views expressed are my own and may not represent those of my
employer
Andy McGrath
<jo...@chartw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I must support Mr Mayall here. Just how far do you take 'consumer
>protection'. Does the consumer have no obligation at all? Aren't
>the word DIESEL, UNLEADED, and LEADED enough? Colour
>codes only complicate matters don't they? Do you know any colour
>code that works?
Tube maps and wiring.
I take your point. But for this argument to work it would have to be
a legal requirement for the nozzle to be marked unleaded etc. The
reason why colour coding would help is because the is "almost" a
colour coding system in operation. It would avoid confusion.
Andy
Andy McGrath
McMahon) wrote:
>Nothing - what happens when you go abroad, either rentinbg a vehicle
>or driving your own, and they don't use the same colours. Maybe black
>for unleaded and green for diesel?
I put sans plomb in the old jalopy.
>
>Now whose fault is it?
>
>Or are you proposing an international solution - in which case just
>sit back and wait for the UN to agree on a suitable colour scheme
>......
The point is that because many garages follow an unofficial system
where diesel is coded black, it does lead to confusion is sites where
all the nozzles are black.
>>I presume that you would consider all forrms of consumer information
>>as unneccessary.
>
>I believe there is consumer information on the pumps as to which fuel
>is dispensed from which nozzle.
True.
Andy
John Boyle
McGrath <amcg...@easynet.co.uk> writes
>On Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:57:17 +0000, John Boyle
><jo...@chartw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>I must support Mr Mayall here. Just how far do you take 'consumer
>>protection'. Does the consumer have no obligation at all? Aren't
>>the word DIESEL, UNLEADED, and LEADED enough? Colour
>>codes only complicate matters don't they? Do you know any colour
>>code that works?
>
>Tube maps
But the legend is next to the map isn't it? the colours could be
different every time.
>and wiring.
I have to check the bit of paper on the plug 'cos I can never
remember!!
>
>I take your point. But for this argument to work it would have to be
>a legal requirement for the nozzle to be marked unleaded etc. The
>reason why colour coding would help is because the is "almost" a
>colour coding system in operation. It would avoid confusion.
fair comment, but perhaps it could be adopted by consensus
rather than by legislation.
--
John Boyle
Richard Foxcroft
>On 2 Nov 1998 01:17:18 -0000, Charles Bryant
><n17510...@chch.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>It would be easier to have mndatory colour coding rather than random
>assigned colours.
What, MORE b****y rules? Haven't we got ENOUGH?
Richard
Regards
Richard Foxcroft
Telford, Shropshire, England
Andy McGrath
<jo...@chartw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <36440e3...@news.easynet.co.uk>, Andy
>McGrath <amcg...@easynet.co.uk> writes
>>On Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:57:17 +0000, John Boyle
>><jo...@chartw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Tube maps
>
>But the legend is next to the map isn't it? the colours could be
>different every time.
District and Circle line have always been yellow and green on the maps
I've looked at!
>
>
>>and wiring.
>
>I have to check the bit of paper on the plug 'cos I can never
>remember!!
I'll have to agree on that one.
>
>>
>>I take your point. But for this argument to work it would have to be
>>a legal requirement for the nozzle to be marked unleaded etc. The
>>reason why colour coding would help is because the is "almost" a
>>colour coding system in operation. It would avoid confusion.
>
>fair comment, but perhaps it could be adopted by consensus
>rather than by legislation.
I think that's what is causing the problem. Many sites have adopted
an unofficial coding system leaving some that are doing it
differently.
Andy
Charles Bryant
Andy McGrath <amcg...@easynet.co.uk> wrote:
>On Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:57:17 +0000, John Boyle
><jo...@chartw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>code that works?
>
Tube maps are not always in colour, and have the key printed on them.
As for wiring, would that be the red=live, black=neutral, green=earth
code or the brown=live, blue=neutral, green/yellow=earth?
Dave Mayall
>
> On Wed, 04 Nov 1998 13:16:21 +0000, Dave Mayall
> <may...@postoffice.co.uk> wrote:
> It must be nice never to slip up. What's wrong with a system that
> minimises the chance of putting the wrong fuel in?
>
> I presume that you would consider all forrms of consumer information
> as unneccessary.
I make mistakes from time to time, and when I do so I don't start
whinging about what somebody else should have done.
I think that the text descriptions on the pumps should be adequate
information.
Ian Fitter
>As for wiring, would that be the red=live, black=neutral, green=earth
>code
Which is illegal for colour coding of flexes on supplied appliances.
>or the brown=live, blue=neutral, green/yellow=earth?
--
Charles Bryant
Ian Fitter <ia...@icf.u-net.com> wrote:
>Charles Bryant <n118916...@chch.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>As for wiring, would that be the red=live, black=neutral, green=earth
>>code
>
>Which is illegal for colour coding of flexes on supplied appliances.
>
>>or the brown=live, blue=neutral, green/yellow=earth?
The point is that the former code has been superseded by the latter,
so it's not a very good example of a code that works.
Andy McGrath
<n118916...@chch.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <36440e3...@news.easynet.co.uk>,
>Andy McGrath <amcg...@easynet.co.uk> wrote:
>>On Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:57:17 +0000, John Boyle
>><jo...@chartw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Do you know any colour
>>>code that works?
>>
>>Tube maps and wiring.
>
>Tube maps are not always in colour, and have the key printed on them.
If they are in colour does the scheme vary?
>As for wiring, would that be the red=live, black=neutral, green=earth
>code or the brown=live, blue=neutral, green/yellow=earth?
Blimey, time to buy some new electrical appliances :-)
Andy
Andy McGrath
<n83067...@chch.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <36473a24...@news.u-net.com>,
>Ian Fitter <ia...@icf.u-net.com> wrote:
>>Charles Bryant <n118916...@chch.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>As for wiring, would that be the red=live, black=neutral, green=earth
>>>code
>>
>>Which is illegal for colour coding of flexes on supplied appliances.
>>
>>>or the brown=live, blue=neutral, green/yellow=earth?
>
>The point is that the former code has been superseded by the latter,
>so it's not a very good example of a code that works.
Er... no. It's a example of code which was improved. It doesn't
invalidate the concept.
Andy
John Boyle
McGrath <amcg...@easynet.co.uk> writes
>On 9 Nov 1998 00:45:37 -0000, Charles Bryant
Not relevant, 'cos there is ALWAYS a legend.
>y
--
John Boyle
Andy McGrath
Take that as a "No the scheme doesn't vary".
Andy
>
>
>>y
John Boyle
McGrath <amcg...@easynet.co.uk> writes
>On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:17:03 +0000, John Boyle
><jo...@chartw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In article <36489635...@news.easynet.co.uk>, Andy
>>McGrath <amcg...@easynet.co.uk> writes
>>>On 9 Nov 1998 00:45:37 -0000, Charles Bryant
>>>If they are in colour does the scheme vary?
>>
>>Not relevant, 'cos there is ALWAYS a legend.
>
>Take that as a "No the scheme doesn't vary".
True, but do people really go to the board and look for Yellow? or
do the go to the board and look for the line they want, and then
see what colour it is?
Londoners know the underground, and don't really use the boards
all that often so knowledge of the code is immaterial. If you don't
know how to get where you are going then you go the board and
look at where you are and where you want to get to and then look
at the colours at the start and at the end, you then follow the
colours.
The constancy of colour between boards is largely immaterial.
The different colours are NOT there, primarily, to identify a
particular line, but to make it easier to follow the route on the
diagram. When you have found the colour of the most suitable
route then you look at the legend. I don't reckon there are many
people who know what the legend is to such an extent that they
don't have to check.
The point of having a colour code in the original argument was to
have a standard code so that people didn't need to do that hard
reading thing. The u/g map was cited as an example of a
successful colour code. I contend that it is an example of a
coloured diagram with colours used for ease of distinction
between adjacent lines and that the colours need not be
memorised and in reality are not memorised by users. the only
reason a constant colour code is used is 'cos it makes the
printing cheaper.
--
John Boyle
Denis McMahon
Umm, I seem to recall that the signs in the stations are also colour
coded accoprding to the LU colour coded maps, so you don't actually
need to know the name of the line you want at an interchange, just
follow the colour signs.
The LU colour coding extends beyond the lines on the map, and I think
it is thus a colour code, rather than a coloured diagram.
However, the more obvious example of a colour code to my mind is that
used in electronics to indicate resistance etc.
Rgds
Denis
--
John Boyle
McMahon <de...@pickaxe.demon.co.uk> writes
>Umm, I seem to recall that the signs in the stations are also colour
>coded accoprding to the LU colour coded maps, so you don't actually
>need to know the name of the line you want at an interchange, just
>follow the colour signs.
>
It is a very long time since I used the LU and if the signs are
similarly colour coded then I take your point to a certain extent but I
STILL believe that travellers are only following a colour 'cos that is
the one they started with not because they know that 'yellow' is the
circle line.
>The LU colour coding extends beyond the lines on the map, and I think
>it is thus a colour code, rather than a coloured diagram.
>
>However, the more obvious example of a colour code to my mind is that
>used in electronics to indicate resistance etc.
>
With this I wholeheartedly agree. There used to be a mnemonic ,
what was it now?
--
John Boyle
Gary Dale
>minimises the chance of putting the wrong fuel in?
Well there's usually a word on the pump. Clue here, perhaps?
>I presume that you would consider all forrms of consumer information
>as unneccessary.
Very probably.
Gary Dale
if>*does* use the Red/Green/Black convention, what would you expect?
The 'unexpected'?
Mike Paley
jo>Newsgroups: uk.legal
jo>In article <3649ee1...@news.easynet.co.uk>, Andy
jo>McGrath <amcg...@easynet.co.uk> writes
jo>>On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:17:03 +0000, John Boyle
jo>><jo...@chartw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
jo>>>In article <36489635...@news.easynet.co.uk>, Andy
jo>>>McGrath <amcg...@easynet.co.uk> writes
jo>>>>On 9 Nov 1998 00:45:37 -0000, Charles Bryant
jo>>>>If they are in colour does the scheme vary?
jo>>>Not relevant, 'cos there is ALWAYS a legend.
jo>>Take that as a "No the scheme doesn't vary".
I know that there's colour and shape coded tags for the benefit of
tanker drivers when dropping fuel at filling stations.
Personally, I choose a nozzle at random ;) lift it off the pump then
look at the display to see which product is indicated and that "hands are set
to zero before delivery commences" as we all should do, but who apart from me
bothers ?
Most interesting encounter I had was after filling my car with 12 quid's worth,
I went to pay for it, the display showed 12 as I handed my switch card over.
I got the ticket to sign printed with 14 quid's worth on it ! Course, I
wouldn't sign it ! In the end, I "bought 12 quid's worth of CONFECTIONARY"
That's computers for you !
Second case was when the bloke in front of me in the queue paid for my diesel.
Fortunately, the petrol he got was exactly the same value, so I paid for that.
--
Comm again, Mike.
"I've got to go, my horse is getting cold"
The words in this e-mail are defined in the 1920s English dictionaries. Failing that, a more modern dictionary may be used.
Ex Turnpike user, Ex Demon customer WordStar worshipper,
Ex Windows 95 user, Windows 98 got as far as cre
Net-Tamer V 1.09.2 - Test Drive
Mike Paley
jo>McMahon <de...@pickaxe.demon.co.uk> writes
jo>>However, the more obvious example of a colour code to my mind is
jo>>that used in electronics to indicate resistance etc.
jo>With this I wholeheartedly agree. There used to be a mnemonic ,
jo>what was it now?
Continuing with the off topicity,
A more obvious colour code is surely used on traffic lights !
--
Comm again, Mike.
"I've got to go, my horse is getting cold"
Rest of .sig file available on request. Ignorance is no excuse.
John Boyle
<pmai...@waverider.co.yuk> writes
>A more obvious colour code is surely used on traffic lights !
>
True. By strange coincidence the topic of traffic lights was raised
at home today 'cos I am to attend as a witness in a magistrates
court in a case in which the defendent allegedly went through a
red light. In conversation the defence of 'colour blindness' was
raised but this is invalid 'cos Red is always at the top. So is it a
true 'colour code'? or could it still be an offence to pass a traffic
light when the top one is lit?
--
John Boyle
David Cogman
<jo...@chartw.demon.co.uk> posted:
>True. By strange coincidence the topic of traffic lights was raised
>at home today 'cos I am to attend as a witness in a magistrates
>court in a case in which the defendent allegedly went through a
>red light. In conversation the defence of 'colour blindness' was
>raised but this is invalid 'cos Red is always at the top. So is it a
>true 'colour code'? or could it still be an offence to pass a traffic
>light when the top one is lit?
What does the law read? Does it say red light or top
light?
Speaking from the US, there is one manufacturer of the
colored lens that uses a tint choice that in bright daylight I
have to look very carefully to see which light is lit. And in
lesser lighting that "green" matches what otherwise I call aqua
which for me is not a "distinct" color at all. The "red" where
I can see it is a pale pink. At night, I could not even swear
they are colored at all, rather I use the "red on top" scheme.
Although judges have probably heard it a million times and
reject it, it could be a legitimate defense. It could even be
true. It would depend upon a reasonable person knowing the "red
on top" rule. I vaguely remember it as a question on the exam
for a learner's permit.
John Boyle
Cogman <DCo...@spamdie.moc> writes
> It would depend upon a reasonable person knowing the "red
>on top" rule.
Are 'red' lights ever anywhere else on traffic lights, even in US?
--
John Boyle
David Cogman
<jo...@chartw.demon.co.uk> posted:
>In article <364f1a3e...@news.earthlink.net>, David
Red has been on top as far back as I have seen old movies.
There were horizontal lights and there red was always on the
left. But I have not seen the horizontal scheme in thirty years
and I never saw one that did not look like a cast iron antique
even as a kid in the '50s.
Our pedestrian crosswalk signals have "Don't Walk" or
whatever the "symbol for illiterates" is on the top. Why
traffic lights don't need symbols ... sorry ... a bureaucrat
might be listening.
From the old movies, Hollywood would get their stock shots
from either New York or Los Angeles. I grew up in the midwest.
So it was all the same system before forced federal
standardization.
Some decades ago the federal government forced
standardization on all traffic control systems and symbols
across the country. While there may be exceptions but I am not
aware of them, having extensively traveled the country on
business.
Thinking back and if not mistaken, the lighting scheme was
copied from that used on train rail lines. That could explain
the surprising universality. Variation in top bottom left right
would be in early train systems.
Some of the very old systems were the semaphores with stop
and go written on them that scissored in and out, which is a
near identical copy of some train systems.
Chris Dearlove
: It is a very long time since I used the LU and if the signs are
: similarly colour coded then I take your point to a certain extent but I
: STILL believe that travellers are only following a colour 'cos that is
: the one they started with not because they know that 'yellow' is the
: circle line.
Slight reorganisations excepted (e.g. the splitting off of part of
the [purple] Metropolitan line to form the [pink] Hammersmith and
City line) I've never seen a colour tube map use anything but the
same fixed colours (including historical maps) and I for one use
the colours and never look at the key. Other than maps some other
things are coloured, some aren't. When they are coloured it's the
same colours again.
To put it in context I visit London maybe twice a month.
--
Christopher Dearlove, personal opinion only.
Mike Paley
jo><pmai...@waverider.co.yuk> writes
jo>>A more obvious colour code is surely used on traffic lights !
jo>True. By strange coincidence the topic of traffic lights was raised
jo>at home today 'cos I am to attend as a witness in a magistrates
jo>court in a case in which the defendent allegedly went through a
jo>red light. In conversation the defence of 'colour blindness' was
jo>raised but this is invalid 'cos Red is always at the top.
More's the point, should the colour blind person be driving if they admit
their colour-blindness prevents them identifying important colour schemes
in traffic signage and signals ?
jo>So is it a
jo>true 'colour code'? or could it still be an offence to pass a
jo>traffic light when the top one is lit?
I'm quite sure it's "Red" - the signs at temporary lights state the red light,
not the top light.
jo>--
jo>John Boyle
Mike Paley
jo>Cogman <DCo...@spamdie.moc> writes
jo>> It would depend upon a reasonable person knowing the "red
jo>>on top" rule.
jo>Are 'red' lights ever anywhere else on traffic lights, even in US?
Firstly, red lights are side-by-side on some signals - rail crossings,
fire/ambulance station areas.
Secondly, I came a cross a light where the green one was at the top.
I'm sure it must almost be a unique case - there's only one light, green,
and it's permanently lit and is also an upward pointing arrow. But it
does make it a green on top situation ! It is there simply to show drivers
the adjacent lights do not apply to that piece of road.
--
Comm again, Mike.
"I've got to go, my horse is getting cold"
Rest of .sig file available on request. Ignorance is no excuse.
John Boyle
<pmai...@waverider.co.yuk> writes
>On 1998-11-15 jo...@chartw.demon.co.uk said:
> jo>Newsgroups: uk.legal
> jo>In article <364f1a3e...@news.earthlink.net>, David
> jo>Cogman <DCo...@spamdie.moc> writes
> jo>> It would depend upon a reasonable person knowing the "red
> jo>>on top" rule.
> jo>Are 'red' lights ever anywhere else on traffic lights, even in US?
>
>Firstly, red lights are side-by-side on some signals - rail crossings,
>fire/ambulance station areas.
>
located below the reds so the alternate flashing reds are still 'on
top'. Also that type of red light assembly is specifically given a
separate mention in the old HC and are not, apparently, called
traffic lights.
>Secondly, I came a cross a light where the green one was at the top.
>I'm sure it must almost be a unique case - there's only one light, green,
>and it's permanently lit and is also an upward pointing arrow. But it
>does make it a green on top situation ! It is there simply to show drivers
>the adjacent lights do not apply to that piece of road.
>
Hmm, there is a similar light on the Preston to Blackpool road at
the Y junction for the road to Lytham. In this case there is a solitary
permanently shining left pointing green arrow to indicate a
permanent left filter lane. Hardly a 'traffic light' though! (In this case
I saw it as being at the bottom :-)
--
John Boyle
John Boyle
>their colour-blindness prevents them identifying important colour
>schemes
>in traffic signage and signals ?
>
Quite right.
> jo>So is it a
> jo>true 'colour code'? or could it still be an offence to pass a
> jo>traffic light when the top one is lit?
>
>I'm quite sure it's "Red" - the signs at temporary lights state the red light,
>not the top light.
True. Could it argued that by convention the red is the top light?
--
John Boyle
Ian Fitter
>In article <364f1a3e...@news.earthlink.net>, David
>Cogman <DCo...@spamdie.moc> writes
>> It would depend upon a reasonable person knowing the "red
>>on top" rule.
>
>Are 'red' lights ever anywhere else on traffic lights, even in US?
In Japan, the lights are placed horizontally.
Sparky
Ian Fitter wrote in message <3653381c...@news.u-net.com>...
|John Boyle <jo...@chartw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
|
|>In article <364f1a3e...@news.earthlink.net>, David
|>Cogman <DCo...@spamdie.moc> writes
|>> It would depend upon a reasonable person knowing the "red
|>>on top" rule.
|>
|>Are 'red' lights ever anywhere else on traffic lights, even in US?
|
|In Japan, the lights are placed horizontally.
An attempt at further inscrutability ??
--
sparky
John Boyle
<ia...@icf.u-net.com> writes
>In Japan, the lights are placed horizontally.
>
--
John Boyle
Ian Fitter
Can't say for sure (never actually drove in Japan) but I would imagine
so.
John Boyle
<ia...@icf.u-net.com> writes
>John Boyle <jo...@chartw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In article <3653381c...@news.u-net.com>, Ian Fitter
>><ia...@icf.u-net.com> writes
>>>In Japan, the lights are placed horizontally.
>>>
>>Is the red consistently to one side?
>
>Can't say for sure (never actually drove in Japan)
Neither have I.
> but I would imagine
>so.
>
Don't the Japanese write at 90 degrees to the manner we adopt?,
i.e. we write left to right, top to bottom?
--
John Boyle
Adrienne LaCroix
<sparky...@TAKEMEOUTbigfoot.com> posted:
>
>Ian Fitter wrote in message <3653381c...@news.u-net.com>...
>|John Boyle <jo...@chartw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>|
>|>In article <364f1a3e...@news.earthlink.net>, David
>|>Cogman <DCo...@spamdie.moc> writes
>|>> It would depend upon a reasonable person knowing the "red
>|>>on top" rule.
>|>
>|>Are 'red' lights ever anywhere else on traffic lights, even in US?
>|
>|In Japan, the lights are placed horizontally.
>
>
>An attempt at further inscrutability ??
Are they round or almond shaped?
Mike Paley
jo><pmai...@waverider.co.yuk> writes
jo>>On 1998-11-15 jo...@chartw.demon.co.uk said:
jo>> jo>Newsgroups: uk.legal
jo>> jo>In article <364f1a3e...@news.earthlink.net>, David
jo>> jo>Cogman <DCo...@spamdie.moc> writes
jo>> jo>> It would depend upon a reasonable person knowing the "red
jo>> jo>>on top" rule.
jo>> jo>Are 'red' lights ever anywhere else on traffic lights, even in
jo>US? >
jo>>Firstly, red lights are side-by-side on some signals - rail
jo>>crossings, fire/ambulance station areas.
jo>But in those circs there are no 'green' lights just a central amber
jo>located below the reds so the alternate flashing reds are still 'on
jo>top'. Also that type of red light assembly is specifically given a
jo>separate mention in the old HC and are not, apparently, called
jo>traffic lights.
I've wondered if those flashing red lights have a different consequence
if ignored. Why is that style used, and not a conventional set ?
Is there a stronger requirement to stop for them ? Such as "you must stop" for
them rather than "you must stop unless likely to cause an accident" - which
is about the only excuse for going through normal lights at red.
Mike Paley
jo>Newsgroups: uk.legal
jo>In article <3651b...@titan.waverider.net.uk>, Mike Paley
jo><pmai...@waverider.co.yuk> writes
jo>>they admit their colour-blindness prevents them identifying
jo>>important colour schemes
jo>>in traffic signage and signals ?
jo>Quite right.
jo>> jo>So is it a
jo>> jo>true 'colour code'? or could it still be an offence to pass a
jo>> jo>traffic light when the top one is lit?
jo>>I'm quite sure it's "Red" - the signs at temporary lights state
jo>>the red light, not the top light.
jo>True. Could it argued that by convention the red is the top light?
Might be convention rather than any requirement ? Specification of the British
Standard traffic light !!!
John Boyle
<pmai...@waverider.co.yuk> writes
>I've wondered if those flashing red lights have a different consequence
>if ignored. Why is that style used, and not a conventional set ?
>
I Think it is because a conventional set would need to show a
permanent green light, and the non-controlled traffic would also
need a set of lights. The twin flashing reds draws your attention to
when they are in operation. In the old HC itsays you MUST stop.
>Is there a stronger requirement to stop for them ? Such as "you must
>stop" for
>them rather than "you must stop unless likely to cause an accident" -
>which
>is about the only excuse for going through normal lights at red.
Not heard about this. Surely Traffic Lights are 'must stop' also?
The unsafe to do so bit could be used to mitigate penalty but I
don't think its a defence to the offence.
>
--
John Boyle
Mike Paley
jo><pmai...@waverider.co.yuk> writes
jo>>I've wondered if those flashing red lights have a different
jo>>consequence if ignored. Why is that style used, and not a
jo>conventional set ? >
jo>I Think it is because a conventional set would need to show a
jo>permanent green light,
No - there are "part time signals" in use in other places.
jo>and the non-controlled traffic would also need a set of lights.
This is a significant difference - one I'd not thought of !
AFAIK, all occurrances of the twin flashing reds, the other "traffic" is
uncontrolled.
jo>The twin flashing reds draws your attention to
jo>when they are in operation. In the old HC itsays you MUST stop.
Implying it does not say that in the new HC ???!!! I remember it does say must
stop in the one I read x years ago.
jo>>Is there a stronger requirement to stop for them ? Such as "you
jo>>must stop" for
jo>>them rather than "you must stop unless likely to cause an
jo>>accident" - which
jo>>is about the only excuse for going through normal lights at red.
jo>Not heard about this.
It's probably only the police that do this ;) That's where I got it from.
Quite possibly another lying officer of the law ! :(
jo>Surely Traffic Lights are 'must stop' also?
jo>The unsafe to do so bit could be used to mitigate penalty but I
jo>don't think its a defence to the offence.
Possibly - also it may only have significance if there was an accident
caused by the transgression.
I'd expect a few on u.l to be able to throw light on this query.
Dave Mayall
> Is there a stronger requirement to stop for them ? Such as "you must stop" for
> them rather than "you must stop unless likely to cause an accident" - which
> is about the only excuse for going through normal lights at red.
The "unless likely to cause an accident" refers to the amber light, not the red.
--
Dave Mayall
The views expressed are mine and may not be those of my employer
Private e-mail to david....@ukonline.co.uk please