Top of the Pops - audience???

[John Turner]

Anyone ever seen a twelve year old (or someone who looks twelve) in the
audience of Top of the Pops?

John.

[Janitor of Lunacy]

"John Turner" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:R8idnXcqDNd6OPDN...@supernews.com...

> Anyone ever seen a twelve year old (or someone who looks twelve) in the
> audience of Top of the Pops?
>
> John.
>

Yes. There was a thread of programmes on BBC4 last night about Kenny
Everett, one being an episode of TOTP from 1973; there were two boys in the
audience who were clearly young, possibly even as young as 12, so I have no
doubt that there were also girls of a similar age.

[Colin R]

Kenny Everett. Yet another one who was forced out of the closet.

[John Turner]

"Janitor of Lunacy" wrote

> Yes. There was a thread of programmes on BBC4 last night about Kenny
> Everett, one being an episode of TOTP from 1973; there were two boys in
> the audience who were clearly young, possibly even as young as 12, so I
> have no doubt that there were also girls of a similar age.

Interesting, I only asked because I could never recall anyone in the
audience of TotP at any time who I would have guessed were younger than
sixteen (or more). I also assumed (rightly or wrongly) that the BBC
wouldn't have welcomed them at that sort of age.

John.

[The Todal]

I don't think that like Mr DeAth, I would be able to tell at a glance
that a girl was 14 rather than 16.

[allantracy]

On Oct 4, 4:06 pm, "John Turner" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Anyone ever seen a twelve year old (or someone who looks twelve) in the
> audience of Top of the Pops?
>

The availability of underage girls is probably par for the course in
some circles of the pop industry or, for that mater, up and down the
country at every Friday night disco.

We all know that after the 30 mph speed limit, the age of consent law
is probably one of our most disregarded.

As one commentator in that program said last night, "You would hardly
expect those, little older than the age of responsibility themselves,
filling their boots to stop and ask for birth certificates."

However, that is a world away from using one's charitable fund raising
status to worm your way into a special girl's school, full of the kind
of girls that would never be believed.

That kind of thing belongs in some kind of Dickensian novel and should
send a shudder down every spine, a truly horrible thing to be getting
up to.

Indeed, the disc jokey from Leeds, apart from having the irritating
knob set to eleven, always struck me as being far too old for the job
he was doing, even back in the 1960s.

[richardm...@googlemail.com]

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 4:06:16 PM UTC+1, John Turner wrote:
> Anyone ever seen a twelve year old (or someone who looks twelve) in the audience of Top of the Pops? John.

Lets hope that none of us here look
at old images of TOTP with Jimmy
and recognise our mothers!

[Nigel Oldfield]

How's About That !!!

WM

[Robbie]

TOTP did have a lower age limit below which they would not allow someone
to be in the audience and that age was 16 in the 70s and 80s before they
raised it at some point to 18. But watching the reruns of the 1977
editions of the programme that are currently showing on BBC Four it
looks like some of the audience are younger than 16. Perhaps the BBC
never asked for ID so presumably it was easy to just give false details
when applying for a ticket and then to get into the studio.


--
Robbie

[Nigel Oldfield]

If you got pubes, yer in.

Good Old Days.

WM

[GB]

On 04/10/2012 16:46, richardm...@googlemail.com wrote:

More to the point, are you recognising Daddy?

[Turk182]

There is a lot of suspicious detail in the documentary. A witness
said (approx) we would just go up to him at Top of The Pops and talked
about "numerous times". In fact the waiting list for tickets for Top
of The Pops was at least 6 months.

Coleen Nolan talked simply of him being to tactile and offered no
significant evidence of abuse. In an article (not connected to this
issue) Coleen claims to be overtly sexual in her approach to people
and says she regularly is "inviting trouble". So did she come on to
Savilee who mistook the signals?

Girls talked of Saville just entering them (and they hadn't noticed)
without any foreplay. Foreplay is a basic for many people (but not
law), but there was no mention of pain or contraceptives and two spoke
of the sex going on for years. I wonder if they were already taking
the pill and active with other sexual partners - I only say this,
because although there is a clear problem around age, much of the
evidence last night was activity which was over the legal age and may
have been from women who are now ashamed of their own behaviour as
girls. I do not excuse the abuse, but at the same time, we cannot put
one person's life under the microscope, completely trash him on every
claim, without also wondering about the credibility of some of the
witnesses. Although they have chosen to 'expose' Saville, did they
seek to expose all the men they had sex with who didn't indulge in
foreplay - or as in the case of two girls, who dumped them when they
reached 20.

There was reference to a 12 year old, but the producer from Radio
Luxembourg (who had a criminal record for fraud) who mentioned this,
was easily in a position to do something, despite him saying that
Saville was strong (although he had never been threatened). This man
could have committed an offence, but of course when questioned by
police, he may say, "well I only THINK she was 12". I would also say
that it is very difficut to tell the ages of young people in
particular, and although the 'hotel' incident the Luxembourg man
referred to (being an exception on age) suggested a younger child,
there has not AFAIK, been any allegation from anyone who claimed they
were 12 at the time of any alleged abuse.

One of the witness's was a self harmer. If you go through the
programme you will see the marks on her wrist. My guess is that she
was already vulnerable when she met Saville, and that Saville's 'prey'
were likely to be girls who were desperate for attention rather than
girls from secure emotional families. His close attnetion to
children's home (and hospitals) is a worrying trait of the man - I
suspect we have only seen the tip of the ice-berg. Having said that,
he was in long-standing relationship with some girls (albeit tacky
relationships) which showed that although he seemed emotionally cold,
he did also have the capacity to maintain some kind of human contact
which in spite of the programme, would have worked for some.

The programme was sexed up just a bit, as is typical of this man, but
overall, there is a strong case that Saville exploited vulnerable
young girls and felt he was entitled to sexual favours with some. His
attitude to age of consent was stoneage. The law protects young
people because many young people really do need protecting, and there
are many adults who harm children as they place their own desire above
the needs of the child.

There is not an excuse for such behaviour, but there is an
explanation, and that I believe takes us right back to the Duchess.
She was the one and only woman in his life - and that is why all his
'girls' had to be young. No woman was allowed to de-throne mum.
Saville's sexual identity formed in an unhealty way - home holds all
the clues. I suspect a degree of mental illness in mum. Saville's
dressing up 'as if female' and his overtly sexualised kissing and
licking of hands which he did everywhere, his poor boundaries of
inappropriate behaviour in locations such as he choose, suggests to me
a very high chance that he was abused as a child. (As well as
experiencing prolonged emotional neglect). All abused children do not
go on to abuse - but many do because there survival circuits have been
very clearly printed by the time they are in their teens. Saville is
unlikely to have seen what he did as wrong, it seems he had no other
avenue of sexual activity which could offer a greater identification.

Turk182

[Steerpike]

Just curious to know why exactly you seem so fascinated with this sad affair? Surely discussion of issues that are likely to effect yourself and your immediate family would be of more value?

[totallyconfused]

On Oct 4, 5:09 pm, GB <NOTsome...@microsoft.com> wrote:

I recall that American Bandstand (USA equal of TOTP) had a mimimum age
limit of 16 years old.

I can only think of two similar (or not) examples:
*When my daughter was 11 she had a massive Justin Timberlake
obsession; believe me, it took setting the alarm at 3 am to get those
first row tickets. (They were her 12th birthday present). My friend
and I dropped our then 12 year old daughters off and went for a meal;
we told the girls to ring us when he started singing Girlfriend';
because we knew that would be the end. During our meal, they rang us
a few times; we put the calls on speaker phone. The first time, we
got nasty looks; as soon as people realised it was the JT concert up
the road live,the whole restaurant were very into it. He came off the
stage and kissed my daughter's hand.....Should I sue him?

*For my Birthday, my husband bought me VIP tickets to see Donny Osmond/
Osmond 50th Anniversary Tour. (he only managed row 3). We went with
our little boy; he won the 'second place' prize for being the youngest
attendee. DO came off the stage and pointed at my boy and suddenly
there was my boy on the 3 big screens; it is in a video they produced;
do I sue the Osmonds for stealing my son's 'likeness'? Has my child
been abused?

I am not making 'light/lite' of this situation, but if we look for
abuse in every action, we will all drive ourselves nuts. I prefer to
think that Saville and people like Oldfield are not the 'norm' and
represent a minor subset of society.
TC

[Turk182]

Top of The Pops was among the first TV shows to run cameras looking up
the skirts of females. Perhaps the freelove 60's and the sexual
explosion caused them to let go of the leash a little in this
direction.

I may be wrong, but I did feel that there was at least one other on
the Top of The Tops team, a producer, whose orientation was more
towards boys. Let's face it, this was society atg the time. The
schools were full of abusive teachers and most of that was hushed up
and even normal.

Many BBC Producers, Managers and Controllers were ex-the forces. They
had a wide variety of drink, gambling and sexual quirks, but on the
whole - much as in other professions. The problem with TOTP was the
drink. Rehearsels always ended up in the bars either Lime Grove or TV
Centre, and when bands (BBC brass type musicians) were present, some
would find it difficult to play in tune!

Turk182

[totallyconfused]

That is quite correct. I am a living example. At the age of 9, I was
5ft 3inches with a 32DD chest. (so not much changed then except for a
few wrinkles and bi-focals.) Men used to 'hit on me' when I was 9 or
10; my father told them to 'back off';they were shocked to learn my
real age. (They said they thought I was 16/17) It is only the last 2
years or so that my 'age is showing'. People still think I am 10
years younger than I am. I know my age; I just have to look in the
mirror.
TC

[allantracy]

> two spoke
> of the sex going on for years.

Indeed, and, up to that point, there was a degree of complicity on
behalf of some of those starstruck victims.

But then, we all know what the law has to say about that.

Where the story took on another, altogether darker side, was where his
charity fund raising efforts were being put to use raising money for
approved girl's schools, affording him access to some of the most
vulnerable and, as we heard, defenseless.

The picture that emerged of Saville was someone deliberately targeting
youngsters because they were those least likely to resist his crude
advances.

Unlike women of legal age, far more street wise, and less likely to
put up and shut up that would have probably told the ugly old pervert
to f**k off, followed by a good old fashioned Northern bunch of fives.

[totallyconfused]

I did think of this. If he was already 'targetting' children 'in
care' and 'sick children' then I am not sure what to think. As I
posted before, I am not British and always found him 'strange/odd'. I
don't get why the UK calls him a 'saint'; I always found him
'creepy'. (He wasn't Mr. Rogers)
TC

[Frederick Williams]

Robbie wrote:
>
> [...] Perhaps the BBC

> never asked for ID so presumably it was easy to just give false details
> when applying for a ticket and then to get into the studio.

Whoever asked for ID in 1977?

--
Where are the songs of Summer?--With the sun,
Oping the dusky eyelids of the south,
Till shade and silence waken up as one,
And morning sings with a warm odorous mouth.

[Frederick Williams]

John Turner wrote:

> Interesting, I only asked because I could never recall anyone in the
> audience of TotP at any time who I would have guessed were younger than
> sixteen (or more). I also assumed (rightly or wrongly) that the BBC
> wouldn't have welcomed them at that sort of age.

Many a twelve year old knows how to pass for sixteen.

[Mel Rowing]

On Oct 4, 5:41 pm, Turk182 <digitalradi...@aol.com> wrote:
> On 4 Oct, 16:57, Robbie <ngrobbi...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Top of The Pops was among the first TV shows to run cameras looking up
> the skirts of females.  Perhaps the freelove 60's and the sexual
> explosion caused them to let go of the leash a little in this
> direction.

I think you are inspired by a TV play some little while back.

> I may be wrong, but I did feel that there was at least one other on
> the Top of The Tops team, a producer, whose orientation was more
> towards boys.  Let's face it, this was society atg the time.  The
> schools were full of abusive teachers and most of that was hushed up
> and even normal.

No they weren't and no it wasn't!

> Many BBC Producers, Managers and Controllers were ex-the forces.  They
> had a wide variety of drink, gambling and sexual quirks, but on the
> whole - much as in other professions.  The problem with TOTP was the
> drink.  Rehearsels always ended up in the bars either Lime Grove or TV
> Centre, and when bands (BBC brass type musicians) were present, some
> would find it difficult to play in tune!

And thaat's the third or is it fourth group you have disparaged.

Are there any more?

[totallyconfused]

I believe les macgownan( bay city rollers) and andy taylor (duran
duran) have written about these issues,,,sorry still struggling with
new bi-focals!


TC

[AndyW]

On 04/10/2012 16:46, richardm...@googlemail.com wrote:

Do you have blonde-almost white hair by any chance?

Andy

[richardm...@googlemail.com]

On Thursday, October 4, 2012 5:09:31 PM UTC+1, GB wrote:
> On 04/10/2012 16:46, richardm...@googlemail.com wrote: > On Thursday, October 4, 2012 4:06:16 PM UTC+1, John Turner wrote: >> Anyone ever seen a twelve year old (or someone who looks twelve) in the audience of Top of the Pops? John. > > Lets hope that none of us here look > at old images of TOTP with Jimmy > and recognise our mothers! > More to the point, are you recognising Daddy?

If i develop a liking for shell suits and
jewellery I think i will start asking
questions.

[RichMck]

Do you have blonde-almost white hair by any chance? Andy

-----

All my hair has fallen out
so i cant tell !!!

[Steerpike]

>
>
> If i develop a liking for shell suits and
>
> jewellery I think i will start asking
>
> questions.

You need to worry much more if you develop a taste for wanting to fuck corpses.............lol

[Jen...@theoutfall.net]

Certainly doesn't appeal to me, Necrophillia is Dead Boring.

Jenks

[R. Mark Clayton]

"Colin R" <richar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:506da903$0$2088$7120d902@karibu...

Forced out? You do mean the chap who used to prance about in ladies' things
on prime time TV?

Perhaps you were a little naive then ... and now.

[John Turner]

"Robbie" wrote

But watching the reruns of the 1977
> editions of the programme that are currently showing on BBC Four it looks
> like some of the audience are younger than 16. Perhaps the BBC never asked
> for ID so presumably it was easy to just give false details when applying
> for a ticket and then to get into the studio.

I can accept some maybe looked 'younger than 16' but TWELVE??? Looking
younger doesn't mean they are/were younger though. The tendency is for
young girls to look older than they are!

Some of the girls going to our local Comprehensive look 16+ and dress as
though they intend to sell their wares, but I bet many are a deal younger.

I still maintain I've NEVER seen anyone (male or female) who looks twelve in
the TotP audience.

John.

[Mel Rowing]

I remember many years ago my eventual sister in law going with a
friend be be part of a TotP studio audience. There was some talk that
tickets were only available to over 18s. I don't know or can't
remember if told, how this requirement was verified.

[Steve Firth]

You may have been told it, but it's bollocks.

My wife, her sister and one of my best friends from Uni were all TOTP
regulars and were aged from 14 to 18 during their attendance at recordings.
The guff that was talked about tickets was also not accurate. Just about
anyone could get them at short notice.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/

[Paul Hyett]

On Fri, 5 Oct 2012 at 18:09:41, R. Mark Clayton
<nospam...@btinternet.com> wrote in uk.legal :

>>
>> Kenny Everett. Yet another one who was forced out of the closet.
>>
>Forced out? You do mean the chap who used to prance about in ladies' things
>on prime time TV?
>

Well, it *was* all done 'in the best possible taste'... :p
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham

[richardm...@googlemail.com]

Steve,

Did they hear or encountered any
inappropriate behaviour?


I recall watching Jim'll Fix It and
not like how he sat young girls on his
knees.

In hindsight if so many people at the BBC
heard the rumours giving him his own
programme (Jim'll Fix It) is just madness.

[richardm...@googlemail.com]

Apparently Freeman etc had parties with boys etc.
I doubt that Everett would have been involved
as he would be the receiver.

[Steve Firth]

<richardm...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Steve,
>
> Did they hear or encountered any
> inappropriate behaviour?

No but they did do some terrible dancing to some dreadful music. This was
in the days when TOTP was recorded at Dickenson Road for wife and her
sister and a bit later after the move to London for the best friend at Uni.

Given that best friend's father used to edit "Forum" and she used to write
about half of the letters page (her best friend from schoolyard to write
the other stuff) I think she knew what sex was about.

> I recall watching Jim'll Fix It and
> not like how he sat young girls on his
> knees.

What I didn't like was the obvious miming on TOTP and the very obvious fact
that a clique of BBC TV DJs, producers and their friends used the program
to push the dreadful tat they had a financial interest in.

> In hindsight if so many people at the BBC
> heard the rumours giving him his own
> programme (Jim'll Fix It) is just madness.

I have a low opinion of the BBC gained from knowing people who work(ed)
there. So I'm not surprised.

--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/