Drunk driving instructor?

[Graham]

What is eh offense - if any - when a driving instructor is over the
alcohol limit but a sober pupil is driving?

[Mel Rowing]

On Jan 19, 7:58 pm, Graham <isnthereanym...@talktalk.net> wrote:

> What is eh offense - if any - when a driving instructor is over the
> alcohol limit but a sober pupil is driving?

The supervisor of a learner driver is subject to exactly the same
rules as he would be were he driving the vehicle.

http://www.helpingldrivers.com/law/supervisor.htm

[Graham]

I'm not so sure. There can be more than one person with a full license
in the car and there is nothing to say they must be in the front seat.

[Portsmouth Rider]

"Graham" <isnther...@talktalk.net> wrote in message
news:50fb0586$0$12000$7120d902@karibu...

Assuming the drunk supervisor is in the front seat, would a sober licenced
driver in the rear seat be liable for prosecution for aiding and abetting?

[Alex Heney]

You would have a hard job persuading the courts that the supervisor
wasn't the one sat in the front passenger seat, if that person had a
full licence.

But you have moved the goalposts here anyhow.

Your question wasn't about who the instructor is, but about what the
offence is.

And the answer is that it is just as much an offence to supervise a
learner while drunk as it is to drive yourself while drunk.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Double your drive space - delete Windows!
To reply by email, my address is alexDOTheneyATgmailDOTcom

[Steve O]

On 19/01/2013 21:47, Jethro_uk wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Jan 2013 21:35:35 +0000, Alex Heney wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 19 Jan 2013 20:43:52 +0000, Graham
>> <isnther...@talktalk.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 19/01/2013 20:14, Mel Rowing wrote:
>>>> On Jan 19, 7:58 pm, Graham <isnthereanym...@talktalk.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What is eh offense - if any - when a driving instructor is over the
>>>>> alcohol limit but a sober pupil is driving?
>>>>
>>>> The supervisor of a learner driver is subject to exactly the same
>>>> rules as he would be were he driving the vehicle.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.helpingldrivers.com/law/supervisor.htm
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I'm not so sure. There can be more than one person with a full license
>>> in the car and there is nothing to say they must be in the front seat.
>>>
>>>
>> You would have a hard job persuading the courts that the supervisor
>> wasn't the one sat in the front passenger seat, if that person had a
>> full licence.
>>
>> But you have moved the goalposts here anyhow.
>>
>> Your question wasn't about who the instructor is, but about what the
>> offence is.
>>
>> And the answer is that it is just as much an offence to supervise a
>> learner while drunk as it is to drive yourself while drunk.
>

> A supplementary question (possibly of more use) is what offence - in any
> - would the *learner* have committed. Assuming he had no reason to
> suspect his instructor were over the limit.
>
> If the leaner were to be subject to punishment - despite their lack of
> knowledge - then would it be fair to insist instructors are tested before
> beginning a lesson ?
>
I suppose you could argue that if the supervisor was unfit to
supervise, then the learner would be guilty of driving whilst
unsupervised, but you would probably be hard pressed to get that one
home in a court, unless of course, anyone knows of a stated case?

[R. Mark Clayton]

"Alex Heney" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:dl3mf8hk8mvsf6qjm...@4ax.com...

> On Sat, 19 Jan 2013 20:43:52 +0000, Graham
> <isnther...@talktalk.net> wrote:
>
>>On 19/01/2013 20:14, Mel Rowing wrote:
>>> On Jan 19, 7:58 pm, Graham <isnthereanym...@talktalk.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is eh offense - if any - when a driving instructor is over the
>>>> alcohol limit but a sober pupil is driving?
>>>
>>> The supervisor of a learner driver is subject to exactly the same
>>> rules as he would be were he driving the vehicle.
>>>
>>> http://www.helpingldrivers.com/law/supervisor.htm
>>>
>>
>>I'm not so sure. There can be more than one person with a full license
>>in the car and there is nothing to say they must be in the front seat.
>>
>
> You would have a hard job persuading the courts that the supervisor
> wasn't the one sat in the front passenger seat, if that person had a
> full licence.

Easy - parent and child out on a lesson, drive to pick inebriated [and
disabled] grandparent from the pub and the grandparent sits in the front
seat of the two door car...

>
> But you have moved the goalposts here anyhow.
>
> Your question wasn't about who the instructor is, but about what the
> offence is.
>
> And the answer is that it is just as much an offence to supervise a
> learner while drunk as it is to drive yourself while drunk.

Correct.

[Graham]

On 20/01/2013 13:12, R. Mark Clayton wrote:

>>
>> And the answer is that it is just as much an offence to supervise a
>> learner while drunk as it is to drive yourself while drunk.
>
> Correct.

So assuming a 5 seater car with 4 pissed full license holders and a
sober learner. which person do they charge?

[Steve O]

The person who was supervising whilst drunk.
That would usually be the person in the front passenger seat, as people
in the rear could not be classed as being in a position to supervise.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <50fbf06f$0$12000$7120d902@karibu>, Graham
<isnther...@talktalk.net> writes

Many, many (30?) years ago, I'm pretty sure that there was a case where
the supervisor was sitting in the back of the car. There was a
prosecution, and it was found that, actually, there was no legal
requirement for the supervisor to sit in the front, and the case was
dismissed. However, I would be surprised if that loophole existed today.
--
Ian

[Ian Jackson]

In message <am2arh...@mid.individual.net>, Steve O
<nos...@here.thanks> writes

See my comments, which 'crossed in the post'.

However, these days, I'd expect the police to arrest everyone until they
decided who - and how many - they could prosecute - and with what.
--
Ian

[Mrcheerful]

R. Mark Clayton wrote:
> "Alex Heney" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:dl3mf8hk8mvsf6qjm...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 19 Jan 2013 20:43:52 +0000, Graham
>> <isnther...@talktalk.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 19/01/2013 20:14, Mel Rowing wrote:
>>>> On Jan 19, 7:58 pm, Graham <isnthereanym...@talktalk.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What is eh offense - if any - when a driving instructor is over
>>>>> the alcohol limit but a sober pupil is driving?
>>>>
>>>> The supervisor of a learner driver is subject to exactly the same
>>>> rules as he would be were he driving the vehicle.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.helpingldrivers.com/law/supervisor.htm
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not so sure. There can be more than one person with a full
>>> license in the car and there is nothing to say they must be in the
>>> front seat.
>>
>> You would have a hard job persuading the courts that the supervisor
>> wasn't the one sat in the front passenger seat, if that person had a
>> full licence.
>
> Easy - parent and child out on a lesson, drive to pick inebriated [and
> disabled] grandparent from the pub and the grandparent sits in the
> front seat of the two door car...

Butterworth's Road Traffic Service (as at June 2002) cites "Rubie v Faulkner
[1940] 1 KB 571, [1940] 1 All ER 285" and "Clark v Clark 1950 SLT (Sh Ct)
68" to support the statement that the supervisor "must participate in the
driving", "must be in a position in or on the vehicle to be able to take
control of it if necessary", and "may in certain circumstances be 'in
charge' of the vehicle and be liable to be charged with an appropriate
offence contrary to the RTA 1988

[Mrcheerful]

[Portsmouth Rider]

"Mrcheerful" <g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:k6UKs.3746$Pt5....@fx31.fr7...

I am aware of instances of a learner driver where the supervisor was
definately sat in a seat around 4 feet behind the learner. For every lesson.
Legally.

--

PR

[Portsmouth Rider]

"Portsmouth Rider" <portsmo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:E6WdnS_7OITysmHN...@brightview.com...

And.... I could tell you the supervisor's name, and the registration number
of the vehicle as well!!

[Graham]

On 20/01/2013 17:59, Portsmouth Rider wrote:

>> I am aware of instances of a learner driver where the supervisor was
>> definately sat in a seat around 4 feet behind the learner. For every
>> lesson. Legally.
>>

>

When I learnt to drive a London bus there was no room for anyone other
than the driver in the cab. The supervisor sat in the back shouting orders.

[Portsmouth Rider]

"Graham" <isnther...@talktalk.net> wrote in message

news:50fc3280$0$11996$7120d902@karibu...

Exactly.

The instructor's name was Eric Piper (now, sadly, no longer with us) and the
vehicle was FVF 423C; the year was 1971.

[Graham]

There was more than one instructor. The bus was a RT.
LT used to teach on those (pre-select boxes)so you couldn't
just get a PSV and then fuck off to drive coaches.

[Portsmouth Rider]

"Graham" <isnther...@talktalk.net> wrote in message

news:50fc3e56$0$11999$7120d902@karibu...

LT adopted preselect gearboxes for a rather different reason (although, as
you say, the automatic-only licence preluded coach work).
The main reason for preselect was that it was easier to train tramcar
drivers to drive a bus (at a time when very few people of that social class
would actually HAVE a licence for any other reason), in the early '50s when
tramcars were discontinued. LT still had to overcome, of course, the
tendency of ex-tram drivers to follow the exact same track where the
tramlines used to be in the middle of the road.....

[Mrcheerful]

certainly that would be the case in a routemaster for instance.

and in that case the learner would be over a certain age and would probably
have a car licence already.

neither of which would preclude the cases mentioned for a car.

[Portsmouth Rider]

"Mrcheerful" <g.odon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message

news:SB_Ks.26086$vU7....@fx25.fr7...

Not necessarily, though. When I did my bus driver test, the laws were
somewhat different.

1. You could learn to drive from scratch on a halfcab bus - car licence or
no..
2. If you did NOT have a car licence, you took a normal Ministry PSV Test.
(over 21 for a bus)
3. IF you already had a car licence, you did not (necessarily) take a
Ministry Test. The Bus Company (if it was of sufficient standing - more
than 100 employees??) had its own Examiners. (who occasionally gave a
deferred Pass - "OK, a couple more days training and here's the Pass
Certificate, you can start driving with paying passengers from next
Monday"). The pass rate was occasionally a function of driver shortage.
4. IF you already had a car licence, and were over 21, you could drive a
fully-laden double deck bus anyway - provided no fares were charged.

But things are a little tighter now.... except for the age limitation. An 18
year okd can drive a Bendy bus on up to 50km routes.

[AlanG]

I know someone who was in his mid 20s who passed in a ten ton mobile
crane. It was his first licence and there was only room for the driver
in the cab. He was sent to Coles for a couple of weeks for training
and his test. He was also allowed to drive a car after passing but
wouldn't get behind the wheel of a car because they went too fast.

>

[Mrcheerful]

"Portsmouth Rider" <portsmo...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:1u6dnXBQuuC7a2HN...@brightview.com...

A while ago a very local bus company had a recruiting day, as I like driving
I fancied getting a bus licence ( my sister drives routemasters on the
heritage route) When I went around there were maybe 80 people turned up,
they looked like the line up from Police Academy. There were multiple stages
of assessment, about twenty got knocked back at the check you are free and
able to drive stage, another twenty at the basic multiple choice asessment
regarding fares etc. (including at least one ex bus driver !) Several were
knocked back at the drug test ! One was rejected because she only had one
eye !! Many failed the driving, I passed all sections but did not get a
job.

[AndyW]

On 19/01/2013 19:58, Graham wrote:
> What is eh offense - if any - when a driving instructor is over the
> alcohol limit but a sober pupil is driving?
>

Drunk in charge at the very least. Although the pupil is driving,
technically the instructor is in charge.

It could be possible to force through drunk driving as most instructors
will be sitting at dual controls and it is normal for an instructor
(especially in the early lessons) to apply the brake and adjust the
steering wheel.

IANAL etc

Andy