Misleading Parking Sign
zkat
Permit Holders only
OR
Mon-Sat
8.00am - 6.30pm
1 hour
No return within 1 hour
I read this to mean that the restriction is in force from Monday to
Saturday.
I'm not a permit holder, and I parked there at 4pm on a Sunday
afternoon. Was I wrong to, because I was given a ticket yesterday?
Castle Street, Reading, if it's relevant.
dakeb
"zkat" <zk...@europe.com> wrote in message
news:1126622166.4...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The sign tells you the time and duration you may park there if you're not a
permit holder, and you parked outside this time and duration. All other
times are for permit holders only. So yes, you were parked illegally.
sharky
Pemit Holders only at any time, with the exception of Mon-Sat when you
are allowed an hour.
Interpreted this way, only Permit Holders are allowed outside of Mon-Sat
9-6.30.
I guess you'd need to check with the council what their intention was
for the parking, but you might stand a chance disputing it as the
meaning is so unclear.
What does the ticket say the offence was?
Sponge Bob Square Pants
Permit holders parking. Unless its Mon-Sat between 8:00am-6:00pm then
you may park without a permit for 1 hour, but no returning for 1 hour.
Its not misleading.
--
SBSP
dakeb
"sharky" <bi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3oo7beF...@individual.net...
The sign is designed to tell you when people other than permit holders MAY
park there (as opposed to when they may not). It is clear enough.
bigbrian
I think its at least ambiguous, and can certainly be interpreted as:
Parking is restricted as follows
a)To Permit Holders only or
b)For non permit holders, to only one hour's parking between the
hours stated
There's a legitimate interpretaion that at any other time, its
unrestricted, just as there's a legitimate interpretation that at no
other time is it permitted
Brian
Alex
"Sponge Bob Square Pants" <pa...@pants.com> wrote in message
news:112662302...@nnrp-t71-02.news.clara.net...
> zkat wrote:
>
> > Please interpret this for me:
> >
> > Permit Holders only
> > OR
> > Mon-Sat
> > 8.00am - 6.30pm
> > 1 hour
> > No return within 1 hour
> >
> > I read this to mean that the restriction is in force from Monday to
> > Saturday.
> >
> > I'm not a permit holder, and I parked there at 4pm on a Sunday
> > afternoon. Was I wrong to, because I was given a ticket yesterday?
> > Castle Street, Reading, if it's relevant.
>
> you may park without a permit for 1 hour, but no returning for 1 hour.
> Its not misleading.
No I think (!) I disagree with you but agree with dakeb above.
For permit holders: you can park anytime.
For non permit holders: if it's Mon-Sat between 8:00am-6:30pm then you may
park without a permit for 1 hour, but no returning for 1 hour. Outside
those times you can park anytime.
Or is that what you meant? I don't think the OP should have been ticketed,
I hope he appeals.
Sponge Bob Square Pants
> No I think (!) I disagree with you but agree with dakeb above.
>
> For permit holders: you can park anytime.
> For non permit holders: if it's Mon-Sat between 8:00am-6:30pm then you may
> park without a permit for 1 hour, but no returning for 1 hour. Outside
> those times you can park anytime.
>
> Or is that what you meant? I don't think the OP should have been ticketed,
> I hope he appeals.
Well I think I am right :) Dakeb I think is saying the same as me?
I assume this is a residential area? Are you MAY NOT park there in the
evenings or Sunday unless you have a permit.
--
SBSP
Mike Scott
seems made clear that "Waiting is limited to the times and duration
shown" for this type of notice. So if you're outside the times given and
not a permit holder (in this case) you musn't wait there.
--
Please use the corrected version of the address below for replies.
Replies to the header address will be junked, as will mail from
various domains listed at www.scottsonline.org.uk
Mike Scott Harlow Essex England.(unet -a-t- scottsonline.org.uk)
s--p--o--n--i--x
>Please interpret this for me:
>
>Permit Holders only
>OR
>Mon-Sat
>8.00am - 6.30pm
>1 hour
>No return within 1 hour
At first glance I's say it means that a Permit holder can park there
when he wants, for however long he wants.
Non-permit holders can park there for one hour, during the day Monday
to Saturday.
I'd say that Sundays anyone can park, as it is nor specifically
excluded.
sponix
s--p--o--n--i--x
The sign doesn't exclude anyone from parking on a Sunday, therefore
the OP should appeal.
The fact that this thread includes people with different
interpretations of what the sign means is evidence enough that it's
ambiguous.
sponix
dakeb
"Alex" <alex.lea...@bradford.gov.uk> wrote in message
news:D1ydnb1x-cJ...@karoo.co.uk...
No.
Take away the time allowances from the sign and it says 'Permit Holders
Only'.
That means ONLY permit holders may park there at any time.
There is however a concession to non-permit holders during business hours.
Within the times stated, anybody may park there for one hour.
The sign does not say that non-permit holders may park outside those hours.
It is not ambiguous nor complicated at all.
The sign is obviously designed to give permit holders sole parking rights
outside normal business hours. Permit holders are residents who need to park
near their homes, and they usually pay for their permits.
Jackie Green
I would say it was excluded by it not being mentioned as a time when one can
park if not a permit holder.
dakeb
"s--p--o--n--i--x" <wib...@email.com> wrote in message
news:4326f031...@news.individual.net...
Yes it is specifically excluded, the sign says clearly "Permit Holders
Only".
dakeb
No, it is only evidence that some people who read this thread cannot
understand Plain English!
Sponge Bob Square Pants
> The fact that this thread includes people with different
> interpretations of what the sign means is evidence enough that it's
> ambiguous.
You are making assumptions, the main point on the sign is "Permit
holders Only".
>The sign doesn't exclude anyone from parking on a Sunday, therefore
>the OP should appeal.
Its excludes anyone without a permit.
--
SBSP
Sponge Bob Square Pants
> Parking is restricted as follows
>
> a)To Permit Holders only or
>
> b)For non permit holders, to only one hour's parking between the
> hours stated
>
> There's a legitimate interpretaion that at any other time, its
> unrestricted,
Surely that sign would say this...?
Permit Holders only
Mon-Sat
8.00am - 6.30pm
OR
Mon-Sat
8.00am - 6.30pm
1 hour
No return within 1 hour
--
SBSP
PeteM
>
>"zkat" <zk...@europe.com> wrote in message
>news:1126622166.4...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Please interpret this for me:
>>
>> Permit Holders only
>> OR
>> Mon-Sat
>> 8.00am - 6.30pm
>> 1 hour
>> No return within 1 hour
>>
>> I read this to mean that the restriction is in force from Monday to
>> Saturday.
>>
>> I'm not a permit holder, and I parked there at 4pm on a Sunday
>> afternoon. Was I wrong to, because I was given a ticket yesterday?
>> Castle Street, Reading, if it's relevant.
>
>The sign tells you the time and duration you may park there if you're not a
>permit holder,
But the quoted text doesn't mention parking. It must therefore refer to
some parking sign nearby, such as a No Waiting sign on the same post, or
yellow lines on the road. And it is usual for such text to set out when
such a restriction is in force, not when it is *not* in force. So I
would say that parking is allowed *except* during the period described
by the text.
>and you parked outside this time and duration. All other
>times are for permit holders only.
>So yes, you were parked illegally.
I would say that the sign is ambiguous. Probably deliberately so.
--
PeteM
R D S
"dakeb" <da...@dakeb.com> wrote in message news:dg6pmn$rhg$1...@rdel.co.uk...
I disagree.
It looks to me that the sign details when the restriction is in place.
It obviously needs to be clearer.
Sponge Bob Square Pants
> But the quoted text doesn't mention parking.
Assume is just has a big 'P' on it.
>It must therefore refer to
> some parking sign nearby, such as a No Waiting sign on the same post, or
> yellow lines on the road. And it is usual for such text to set out when
> such a restriction is in force,
Yes, generally it does. I would assume if it wasn't spelt out then it
means always.
--
SBSP
Rob
I think if it had read: 'No Parking except' on the top line then it would be
less ambiguous.
--
Rob
dakeb
"PeteM" <Andr...@despammed.com> wrote in message
news:SpJgbIA9...@despammed.com...
I imagine it's colour and design would be that of a recognisable parking
sign. No other sign would be necessary. Nor would the word 'parking'.
I would agree with your interpretation of parking allowed outside these
hours if the sign did not say 'Permit Holders Only'.
sharky
He's not the only one with a problem in Castle Street!
or
"Comment: Reading Chronicle
May 5 2005
ONE of the most vital things about road signs is that they should be
easy to read and quick to understand. It is regarded as a matter of
safety that motorists need spend little time in comprehending the
meaning of roadside instructions.
Years of expert research have gone into ensuring their clear simplicity
- hence the use of lower case lettering which, it has been discovered,
is faster to read.
But when it comes to Reading, a town where the enforcement of parking
regulations has been privatised, a different set of rules appear to be
in use.
No wonder drivers landed with a £40 ticket for parking in places such as
Castle Street feel bitter. The signs detailing the parking restrictions
are not just unclear, they are plain confusing.
Rather than merely offering "residents only" parking at all times and a
time limit for everyone else, the council has opted for a rather mind
boggling series of options.
For instance, the holder of a TC5 (and just how many people recognise
that?) can park there at any time. Those who have the vital TC5 may park
for an hour between 8am and 6.30pm.
Many non-TC5 drivers might therefore believe this means after 6.30pm
there are no restrictions. Not a bit of it. Lurk there without the
coveted TC5 at 6.31pm, and a parking attendant will happily stick £40
worth of fixed penalty notice on the windscreen. Confused?
To add to that confusion, while council officials may well be content
that the wording of their signs does the trick, perhaps they might like
to look once more at exactly what their new signs indicate.
If, even without that wondrous TC5, drivers can pull in at Castle Street
until 6.30pm and park freely for an hour, surely if they park there at
6.29pm they must be permitted their hour's stay?
Better still, how about just ripping the signs down and replacing them
with wording which ordinary people can understand at a glance?"
dakeb
"R D S" <rsa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3oobdjF...@individual.net...
How is 'Permit Holders Only' not clear?
dakeb
"Sponge Bob Square Pants" <pa...@pants.com> wrote in message
news:112662626...@eunomia.uk.clara.net...
I cannot fathom how anyone else here cannot see that.
dakeb
I cannot see what this has to do with the particular sign referenced by the
OP, which makes no reference to a 'TC5'.
And the reporter is plain wrong. You can park for an hour until 6:30pm,
after that time you may not be parked there even if you stopped at 6:29pm.
I worry if so many motorists are so thick.
AstraVanMan
>> > afternoon. Was I wrong to, because I was given a ticket yesterday?
>> > Castle Street, Reading, if it's relevant.
>>
>> Permit holders parking. Unless its Mon-Sat between 8:00am-6:30pm then
>> you may park without a permit for 1 hour, but no returning for 1 hour.
>> Its not misleading.
>
> No I think (!) I disagree with you but agree with dakeb above.
>
> For permit holders: you can park anytime.
> For non permit holders: if it's Mon-Sat between 8:00am-6:30pm then you may
> park without a permit for 1 hour, but no returning for 1 hour. Outside
> those times you can park anytime.
Sorry, but you're obviously a bit thick. If non-permit holders could park
unrestricted (i.e. for more than 1 hour) outside the stated hours then there
would be no times that "permit holders only" applied to, and therefore no
point in mentioning permit holders.
> Or is that what you meant? I don't think the OP should have been
> ticketed,
> I hope he appeals.
No. Use your brain, and think again.
--
Peter
"You're not a real UKRCMer until you've had your big end bearings go."
AstraVanMan
>>evenings or Sunday unless you have a permit.
>
> The sign doesn't exclude anyone from parking on a Sunday, therefore
> the OP should appeal.
>
> The fact that this thread includes people with different
> interpretations of what the sign means is evidence enough that it's
> ambiguous.
No, it's evidence that there are plenty of people unable to actually
interpret something that's perfectly clear.
The "Permit Holders only" clearly states that, if nothing else was mentioned
on the sign, then only permit holders are allowed to park there at any time.
The "OR Mon-Sat 8.00am - 6.30pm, 1 hour, No return within 1 hour" means that
during those stated hours, people other than permit holders (that'd be the
"OR" bit, then) are permitted to park for no longer than an hour, not
returning within an hour.
Any time of the week not specified by the specifically stated hours is
covered by the general "Permit Holders Only" section.
Not rocket science.
PeteM
>PeteM wrote:
>
>> But the quoted text doesn't mention parking.
>
>Assume is just has a big 'P' on it.
First we need the OP to clarify. Was the text attached to (or near) a
"parking allowed" sign (blue and white P), or was it near a "parking
restricted" sign (yellow and black with a crossed circle symbol)?
--
PeteM
PeteM
>How is 'Permit Holders Only' not clear?
It is. But that's not what the sign said.
--
PeteM
nightjar
>
> Permit Holders only
> OR
> Mon-Sat
> 8.00am - 6.30pm
> 1 hour
>
> Saturday.
My guess is that the symbol accompanying this wording was a blue square with
a white P in it. That is a permission to park, not a restriction on waiting,
and the wording is quite clear in that context. Parking is allowed at any
time with a permit or, for non-permit holders, within the specified times
only and for a maximum of one hour.
Colin Bignell
nightjar
"bigbrian" <harr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vrqdi1t70tebjjh7u...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 15:50:26 +0100, Sponge Bob Square Pants
> <pa...@pants.com> wrote:
>
>>zkat wrote:
>>
>>> Please interpret this for me:
>>>
>>> Permit Holders only
>>> OR
>>> Mon-Sat
>>> 8.00am - 6.30pm
>>> 1 hour
>>> No return within 1 hour
>>>
>>> I read this to mean that the restriction is in force from Monday to
>>> Saturday.
>>>
>>> afternoon. Was I wrong to, because I was given a ticket yesterday?
>>> Castle Street, Reading, if it's relevant.
>>
>>you may park without a permit for 1 hour, but no returning for 1 hour.
>>Its not misleading.
>
>
> Parking is restricted as follows
>
> a)To Permit Holders only or
>
> b)For non permit holders, to only one hour's parking between the
> hours stated
>
> There's a legitimate interpretaion that at any other time, its
> other time is it permitted
If it were a waiting restriction sign, then it makes little sense, as it
would exclude permit holders entirely. However, with a blue square and white
P symbol, it becomes a parking permission and makes perfect sense.
Colin Bignell
--s-p-o-n-i-x--
It says "Permit holders only OR.."
sponix
Tom
Only Permit Holders can park there OR from Mon-Sat between the hours of
8.00am to 6.30pm other people can park there for 1 hour, with no return
within 1 hour.
Not rocket science. Get your hand in your pocket.
"zkat" <zk...@europe.com> wrote in message
news:1126622166.4...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Please interpret this for me:
>
> Permit Holders only
> OR
> Mon-Sat
> 8.00am - 6.30pm
> 1 hour
> No return within 1 hour
>
--s-p-o-n-i-x--
surname here>.uk.com> wrote:
>My guess is that the symbol accompanying this wording was a blue square with
>a white P in it. That is a permission to park, not a restriction on waiting,
>and the wording is quite clear in that context. Parking is allowed at any
>time with a permit or, for non-permit holders, within the specified times
>only and for a maximum of one hour.
So when are you allowed to park on a Sunday? No where does it say you
can't park on a Sunday. It gives times for every other day of the week
but not Sunday..
sponix
Sponge Bob Square Pants
> No where does it say you
> can't park on a Sunday. It gives times for every other day of the week
> but not Sunday..
Please tell me you are joking? Nobody can seriously be that stupid can they?
--
SBSP
bigbrian
That doesn't mean its not ambiguous. It just means that you can't see
the ambiguity (the same problem that, presumably, befell the person
who constructed the notice)
Brian
bigbrian
I think if you read that again you'll find that you didn't say what
you thought you intended to say :-)
AIUI, there's not intended to be any restriction on the times allowed
for permit holders
Brian
J Kenaway
Station is on the corner, so it's not far to travel. The Mags Court is
just around the back when you come to tria, plus there's several
solicitors' firms along that road to represnt you and the Probation
Service is there to rehabilitate you.
bigbrian
That would certainly clarify matters somewhat, but there's no clue
about that from the OP.
However, in the overwhelming majority of cases where I've seen such
signs, the intent is (clearly) to restrict parking at times of peak
activity and demand, hence the "permission" at such times. As the
number of people in this thread has shown, its at least ambiguous that
the *intent* if not necessarily enforced by the specific wording is to
*restrict* parking during those hours and, by extension, *not to
restrict* it during other hours.
The location where the sign is located, which is an area I know, is a
shopping throroughfare, with little or no residential property in
proximity. The sign as it stands - according to your, entirely valid,
interpretation - denies parking there, for example, between 3.00 and
4.00 am, when there would be no credible reason for any restriction. I
don't believe that that was the intention. Anyone with an
understanding of the area could entirely reasonably reach the
conclusion that was reached by the OP
Brian
AstraVanMan
> can't park on a Sunday. It gives times for every other day of the week
> but not Sunday..
It's *really* not that difficult. The word "OR" is the big clue. Each
statement either side of this mystical word is mutually exclusive. In other
words, the conditions one side of the word "OR" can not exist at the same
time as the conditions the other side of the word "OR". When one is in
effect, the other isn't.
So, one set of conditions is "Permit holders only". This means that only
permit holders are allowed to park there? Still with me?
Good.
The other set of conditions says that parking is allowed between the hours
of 8am and 6:30pm, Monday to Saturday, with no returning allowed within an
hour of leaving a parking space. No mention of permit holders there. So
anyone can park for up to an hour, between 8am and 6:30pm, Monday to
Saturday.
Any times not covered under that set of conditions are clearly covered by
the other set - "Permit Holders Only".
Really, what on earth is so fucking difficult about this?
AstraVanMan
"Castle Street, Reading. The one-stop shop serving all the needs of the
criminal fraternity, every step of the way."
AstraVanMan
>>would exclude permit holders entirely. However, with a blue square and
>>white
>>P symbol, it becomes a parking permission and makes perfect sense.
>
> That would certainly clarify matters somewhat, but there's no clue
> about that from the OP.
>
> However, in the overwhelming majority of cases where I've seen such
> signs, the intent is (clearly) to restrict parking at times of peak
> activity and demand, hence the "permission" at such times.
But that's why we have signs. So we don't have to guess. The sign informs
us of the rules as they've been laid out (whether one agrees with this or
not). Simple.
> As the
> number of people in this thread has shown, its at least ambiguous that
> the *intent*, if not necessarily enforced by the specific wording, is to
> *restrict* parking during those hours and, by extension, *not to
> restrict* it during other hours.
Here's a few commas: , , , , , , , ,
Use them in your sentences to make them a hell of a lot more understandable.
I've done it for you this time, because I'm nice like that.
But the intent *is* enforced by the specific wording. Yes, it restricts
parking during peak daytime hours, and completely disallows it outside of
those hours, probably due to residents needing the parking space.
> The location where the sign is located, which is an area I know, is a
> shopping throroughfare,
You clearly don't know the area that well. Castle Street is *not* a
shopping thoroughfare. It's been probably best part of a year since I've
been down that way, but back then it wasn't - I think there are a few shops,
and maybe one or two pubs, closer to the traffic lights at the end of St
Mary's Butts/Gun Street. Towards the other end (near the police station /
IDR) there are some older terraced houses (possibly Victorian era, can't
really remember), which are mainly residential. A few have been converted
to offices (solicitors feature, amongst others), but there are still a fair
number of residential properties there.
> with little or no residential property in
> proximity. The sign as it stands - according to your, entirely valid,
> interpretation - denies parking there, for example, between 3.00 and
> 4.00 am, when there would be no credible reason for any restriction.
No credible reason? How about residents wishing to park their cars outside
their houses whilst asleep?
> I don't believe that that was the intention. Anyone with an
> understanding of the area could entirely reasonably reach the
> conclusion that was reached by the OP
No, I'd have read the sign, which was quite clear in what it meant, and
parked somewhere else. I'd have probably taken a moment to think why the
restrictions were like that, and come to the conclusion that it's done with
the intention of providing parking for residents when they're most likely to
be at home. I'm sure we've all had enough stick with parking restrictions
(or heard about others who have), not to take silly risks just because a
particular parking restriction might not "seem right".
Martin Underwood
>> > >
>> > > Permit Holders only
>> > > OR
>> > > Mon-Sat
>> > > 8.00am - 6.30pm
>> > > 1 hour
>> > > No return within 1 hour
>> > >
>> The sign is designed to tell you when people other than permit holders
>> MAY
>> park there (as opposed to when they may not). It is clear enough.
>>
>>
>
> I disagree.
> It looks to me that the sign details when the restriction is in place.
> It obviously needs to be clearer.
I agree that the wording does not make the sign's meaning abundantly clear.
I think that you did park illegally, but I'd say that the wording is VERY
poor. Most parking signs tell you when *restrictions* apply, with the
implication being that there are no restrictions outside the stated hours.
This one has the sense reversed: it tells you when you can park (with
restrictions to the duration), and that outside those times you can only
park there if you hold a permit. I'm sure you saw the time restrictions,
thought "well I'm outside those times" and thought it was OK to park. The
dangers of having some signs which have the opposite sense to others...
It's the significance of that "or" which is obscure.
I think the "Permit holders only" wording needs to be strengthened: maybe
the sign would be clearer if it said
"Parking permitted only during the following times:
Mon-Sat
8.00am - 6.30pm
1 hour
No return within 1 hour
Outside these times, Permit holders only"
If a sign requires you to stop and look at it several times, and debate over
its meaning for ages before you can decide whether or not you can park, then
it's badly worded.
I think you won't get you parking fine overturned but you might make a
strong enough case you get the wording improved so other people don't get
caught like you did. However I have a sneaking feeling that the wording is
deliberately obscure because I get the impression that some towns would
prefer you to park illegally so they can fine you rather than that you
didn't park there. Or am I an old cynic?
There are signs in Oxford which say that during the week (days/times stated)
you must pay at a meter and imply that outside those times (ie Saturday PM
and all day Sunday) you can park for free for as long as you like. But I had
to read the sign very carefully, and even then I wasn't completely confident
that I wouldn't return to find my car ticketed.
Martin Underwood
news:pan.2005.09.13....@hotmail.com...
> On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:58:56 +0100, Sponge Bob Square Pants penned the
> following bullshit:
> common folk.
So you need to understand Boolean logic to determine when to park or not?
I can understand fully the reasons for having the restrictions: to allow
limited parking to everyone during the working day when residents are away
from home at work and to prohibit everyone except permit holders during the
evenings and at weekends.
Examining the sign very closely, I think that's *probably* what the sign is
trying to say. But it does a very poor job of communicating the fact.
The fact that we've all debated this issue backwards and forwards, up and
down, shows that the meaning is not crystal clear. Instead it is subtle,
obscure and not instantly discernable.
The sign would be so much clearer if it said
"Permit holders only
except
Mon-Fri 8AM-6PM [or whatever] 1 hour
No parking (except permit holders) outside these times."
so as to make it obvious that outside the stated hours you cannot park at
all (unless you are a permit holder) rather than the normal situation where
outside the stated hours there are no restrictions.
nightjar
"--s-p-o-n-i-x--" <sw...@freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:k6bei1dukh9uifpci...@4ax.com...
If my interpretation is correct, it does not give times you cannot park; it
gives times that you can park. You cannot park at any time that is not
mentioned, so not at all on Sunday, unless you are a permit holder.
Colin Bignell
Sponge Bob Square Pants
> I agree that the wording does not make the sign's meaning abundantly clear.
> I think that you did park illegally, but I'd say that the wording is VERY
> poor. Most parking signs tell you when *restrictions* apply, with the
> implication being that there are no restrictions outside the stated hours.
I do agree, the sign is completely backwards. A picture of it would be
very useful.
--
SBSP
bigbrian
<Pe...@Whataloadofforeskinbollocks.co.uk> wrote:
>>>If it were a waiting restriction sign, then it makes little sense, as it
>>>would exclude permit holders entirely. However, with a blue square and
>>>white
>>>P symbol, it becomes a parking permission and makes perfect sense.
>>
>> That would certainly clarify matters somewhat, but there's no clue
>> about that from the OP.
>>
>> However, in the overwhelming majority of cases where I've seen such
>> signs, the intent is (clearly) to restrict parking at times of peak
>> activity and demand, hence the "permission" at such times.
>
>But that's why we have signs. So we don't have to guess. The sign informs
>us of the rules as they've been laid out (whether one agrees with this or
>not).
The issue is not whether one agrees with it (your "or not" is
superfluous, but since you insist on grammar flaming.....), it's
whether one understands it.
> Simple.
You apparently are.
>> As the
>> number of people in this thread has shown, its at least ambiguous that
>> the *intent*, if not necessarily enforced by the specific wording, is to
>> *restrict* parking during those hours and, by extension, *not to
>> restrict* it during other hours.
>
>Here's a few commas: , , , , , , , ,
>
>Use them in your sentences to make them a hell of a lot more understandable.
>I've done it for you this time, because I'm nice like that.
If you had the slightest clue regarding grammar, your point - whatever
it is - might be worth taking on board, but since you clearly have no
idea, it isn't. (Oh, and btw, yes, I'm aware of the missing apostrophe
typo)
>But the intent *is* enforced by the specific wording.
Your knowledge of that intent stems from.....?
>Yes, it restricts
>parking during peak daytime hours, and completely disallows it outside of
>those hours, probably due to residents needing the parking space.
Ah..."probably". So you, in fact, have no knowledge of the intent.
Thanks for clearing that up.
(Sorry if the commas confuse you, but they really are
necessary....you'll learn about that when you get around to taking
English O Level)
>> The location where the sign is located, which is an area I know, is a
>> shopping throroughfare,
>
>You clearly don't know the area that well. Castle Street is *not* a
>shopping thoroughfare. It's been probably best part of a year since I've
>been down that way, but back then it wasn't - I think there are a few shops,
>and maybe one or two pubs,
Mmm...your knowledge of the area shines through
> closer to the traffic lights at the end of St
>Mary's Butts/Gun Street. Towards the other end (near the police station /
>IDR) there are some older terraced houses (possibly Victorian era, can't
>really remember), which are mainly residential. A few have been converted
>to offices (solicitors feature, amongst others), but there are
is (you started it)
> still a fair
>number of residential properties there.
>
>> with little or no residential property in
>> proximity. The sign as it stands - according to your, entirely valid,
>> interpretation - denies parking there, for example, between 3.00 and
>> 4.00 am, when there would be no credible reason for any restriction.
>
>No credible reason? How about residents wishing to park their cars outside
>their houses whilst asleep?
>
>> I don't believe that that was the intention. Anyone with an
>> understanding of the area could entirely reasonably reach the
>> conclusion that was reached by the OP
>
>No, I'd have read the sign, which was quite clear in what it meant, and
>parked somewhere else.
As has already been stated, enough people have misinterpreted the sign
for it to be at least ambiguous......you'd be hard pushed to find a
better definition of the word.
> I'd have probably taken a moment to think why the
>restrictions were like that, and come to the conclusion that it's done with
>the intention of providing parking for residents when they're most likely to
>be at home. I'm sure we've all had enough stick with parking restrictions
>(or heard about others who have), not to take silly risks just because a
>particular parking restriction might not "seem right".
What you, or I, would have done isn't particularly relevant.
(and apologies for the "simple" jibe....I guess I don't take kindly to
having my grammar criticised by people who know less about it than I
do :-) )
Brian
Alex Heney
>Please interpret this for me:
>
>Permit Holders only
>OR
>Mon-Sat
>8.00am - 6.30pm
>1 hour
>No return within 1 hour
>
>I read this to mean that the restriction is in force from Monday to
>Saturday.
>
What a weird way to read it.
To me, it is quite obvious.
Permit holders may park there at any time.
Anyone else may only park there between 8:00AM and 6:30PM Monday to
Saturday, and only for a maximum of 1 hour at a time.
I would guess that permit holders are likely to be local residents,
and the parking is reserved for them at the times they are most likely
to be at home.
>I'm not a permit holder, and I parked there at 4pm on a Sunday
>afternoon. Was I wrong to, because I was given a ticket yesterday?
>Castle Street, Reading, if it's relevant.
Yes, you were wrong.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Seeing is deceiving. It's eating that's believing.
To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTplusDOTcom
sharky
> "sharky" <bi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3ooc6uF...@individual.net...
<snip for space>
>>If, even without that wondrous TC5, drivers can pull in at Castle Street
>>until 6.30pm and park freely for an hour, surely if they park there at
>>6.29pm they must be permitted their hour's stay?
>>
>>Better still, how about just ripping the signs down and replacing them
>>with wording which ordinary people can understand at a glance?"
>
>
> I cannot see what this has to do with the particular sign referenced by the
> OP, which makes no reference to a 'TC5'.
>
> And the reporter is plain wrong. You can park for an hour until 6:30pm,
> after that time you may not be parked there even if you stopped at 6:29pm.
>
> I worry if so many motorists are so thick.
>
>
Err, you are the thick fucker.
This READING newspaper report is about CASTLE STREET, READING - which is
where the OP got his TICKET! Read the original post!
D'oh!
It shows an ongoing problem with understanding of signs on the OP's
street, supposed need for a TC5 (I think the reporter intend this to
mean some sort of parking permit), people getting ticketed in the same
street for similar offences etc etc.
Read the fucking thing properly yourself this time!
Interestingly Castle Street does not appear on Readings list of streets
needing permits:
http://www.reading.gov.uk/transportandstreets/General.asp?id=SX9452-A77FAF53
joe
> But the intent is enforced by the specific wording. Yes, it
> restricts parking during peak daytime hours, and completely disallows
> it outside of those hours, probably due to residents needing the
> parking space.
Residents getting allowed the parking spaces outside their own homes?
Sounds like a nice authority. The residents, where the authority can be
bothered normally get resident parking permits, and the area is marked
with the words "resident parking only", as opposed to "permit parking
only". But, that's only in my experience.
> No credible reason? How about residents wishing to park their cars
> outside their houses whilst asleep?
>
According to a poster living there, there are few residents.
> No, I'd have read the sign, which was quite clear in what it meant,
It would seem not, as the opinions of this newsgroup clearly
demonstrate.
joe
> > Permit Holders only
> > OR
> > Mon-Sat
> > 8.00am - 6.30pm
> > 1 hour
> > No return within 1 hour
> >
> > I read this to mean that the restriction is in force from Monday to
> > Saturday.
> >
>
> What a weird way to read it.
>
> To me, it is quite obvious.
>
That's the way I would take it, too, but I can still see how someone
can read it otherwise. It is literal, but but relies on strict meaning,
IYKWIM.
> I would guess that permit holders are likely to be local residents,
> and the parking is reserved for them at the times they are most likely
> to be at home.
Strange that according to one poster, there are very few residents,
maybe it depends who these residents are?
> > I'm not a permit holder, and I parked there at 4pm on a Sunday
> > afternoon. Was I wrong to, because I was given a ticket yesterday?
> > Castle Street, Reading, if it's relevant.
>
> Yes, you were wrong.
Pay and complain about the wording, you may get it changed.
dakeb
Three facts:-
The op's post said nothing about the need for a tc5 in his description of
the sign, the report is presumably about a different sign.
The reporter foolishly thinks he can park outside the designated times cos
his hour isn't up.
You appear to have an inability to argue without insult and swearing, so
will get no further response from me.
s--p--o--n--i--x
Think about this logically.
The sign is imposing restrictions when people can park. It makes sense
to restrict parking during working hours as that's when roads are
busiest.
However, evenings and Sundays are less busy.
In most places, parking is restricted during the day and is free
evenings and weekends.
The sign does very little to say that you shouldn't park on a Sunday.
Indeed, it implies that it is OK to do so.
sponix
s--p--o--n--i--x
<Pe...@Whataloadofforeskinbollocks.co.uk> wrote:
>> So when are you allowed to park on a Sunday? No where does it say you
>> can't park on a Sunday. It gives times for every other day of the week
>> but not Sunday..
>
>It's *really* not that difficult. The word "OR" is the big clue. Each
>statement either side of this mystical word is mutually exclusive. In other
>words, the conditions one side of the word "OR" can not exist at the same
>time as the conditions the other side of the word "OR". When one is in
>effect, the other isn't.
>
>So, one set of conditions is "Permit holders only". This means that only
>permit holders are allowed to park there? Still with me?
>
>Good.
>
>The other set of conditions says that parking is allowed between the hours
>of 8am and 6:30pm, Monday to Saturday, with no returning allowed within an
>hour of leaving a parking space. No mention of permit holders there. So
>anyone can park for up to an hour, between 8am and 6:30pm, Monday to
>Saturday.
I agree that that is what was intended. However, this sign is not
clear in its meaning.
sponix
s--p--o--n--i--x
>Plain English.
>
>Only Permit Holders can park there OR from Mon-Sat between the hours of
>8.00am to 6.30pm other people can park there for 1 hour, with no return
>within 1 hour.
>
>Not rocket science. Get your hand in your pocket.
The sign is clearly designed to confuse. It should have "no parking at
other times" added to the end.
The OP should complain. My bet is the ticket will be waived.
sponix
Sponge Bob Square Pants
> The sign is imposing restrictions when people can park. It makes sense
> to restrict parking during working hours as that's when roads are
> busiest.
Yes, and the restirction is quite simple. PERMIT HOLDERS ONLY.
> However, evenings and Sundays are less busy.
Rubbish. Many roads are empty during work hours, and very busy during
evenings and Sunday.
> In most places, parking is restricted during the day and is free
> evenings and weekends.
So what? Each parking zone is allowed to have different rules you know.
> The sign does very little to say that you shouldn't park on a Sunday.
The sign does very little to say that you shouldn't park a herd of
masturbating goats in the space either. That doesn't mean you can does it?
> Indeed, it implies that it is OK to do so.
How does PERMIT HOLDERS ONLY imply that?
--
SBSP
s--p--o--n--i--x
>The reporter foolishly thinks he can park outside the designated times cos
>his hour isn't up.
Generally, with parking meters there'll be an accompanying sign that
says: "Parking meters in use Monday to Saturday 8am to 5pm".
Is it OK to park outside these times, ie on a Sunday?
sponix
Palindr☻me
Or the sign is stating when people may park.
It makes sense to allow shoppers to park in a
residential/shopping area when the residents are away at work.
However, evenings and weekends, the parking will be needed
by the permit holders.
Especially Sunday, when the residents most likely aren't at
work and will need somewhere to park. Unless they are all
supposed to be at Church?
It matters not - the OP and others did, apparently,
interpret it differently. The OP can write in and explain
the misunderstanding. With people being able to claim for
things like coffee being hot, water being wet and ice being
slippery, who knows? They may change the signs and cancel
the fines.
Not going to be needed in my locality though. My local town
only has one parking warden and all us locals know when it
is one of his days off*..However, putting that on the signs
would help tourists.
--
Sue
* Wednesday and Thursday this week but back for Market Day...
Graham Murray
> Sorry, but you're obviously a bit thick. If non-permit holders could park
> unrestricted (i.e. for more than 1 hour) outside the stated hours then there
> would be no times that "permit holders only" applied to, and therefore no
> point in mentioning permit holders.
Yes, there would. During the stated hours permit holders would not be
subject to the 1 hour restriction. But then the instructions would
have read
"Mon-Sat 8:00-6:30pm, permit holders or waiting limited to 1 hour with no
returning for 1 hour". ie the permit holder concession would come
after the time restriction not before it.
dakeb
"s--p--o--n--i--x" <wib...@email.com> wrote in message
news:4327e5b8...@news.individual.net...
> On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:48:58 +0100, "Tom" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >Plain English.
> >
> >Only Permit Holders can park there OR from Mon-Sat between the hours of
> >8.00am to 6.30pm other people can park there for 1 hour, with no return
> >within 1 hour.
> >
> >Not rocket science. Get your hand in your pocket.
>
> The sign is clearly designed to confuse. It should have "no parking at
> other times" added to the end.
But Permit Holders ARE allowed to park at other times, that would confuse
people.
dakeb
Yes, unless there is a sign or road marking telling you otherwise.
Alternatively a sign in a car park might say "Gates will be locked after
6pm". It doesn't say you may not park after 6pm, but if you do you would
probably have to pay a fee to have your car released or wait until the next
day.
Graham Murray
> It's *really* not that difficult. The word "OR" is the big clue. Each
> statement either side of this mystical word is mutually exclusive. In other
> words, the conditions one side of the word "OR" can not exist at the same
> time as the conditions the other side of the word "OR". When one is in
> effect, the other isn't.
That is a strange interpretation. Normally, in a condition, OR on its
own is an inclusive OR. In English, to make it exclusive you would
prefix the whole condition with 'either'.
s--p--o--n--i--x
<pa...@pants.com> wrote:
>Rubbish. Many roads are empty during work hours, and very busy during
>evenings and Sunday.
Not in Town centres. Quite the opposite.
s--p--o--n--i--x
<sb38...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>It matters not - the OP and others did, apparently,
>interpret it differently.
Exactly. It appears as though the sign can be interpreted three or
four different ways.
The OP should therefore argue this point.
sponix
s--p--o--n--i--x
>But Permit Holders ARE allowed to park at other times, that would confuse
>people.
It would be less confusing:
"Permit Holders only
-OR-
Mon-Sat 8.00am - 6.30pm
1 hour
No return within 1 hour, no parking at other times"
s--p--o--n--i--x
>Permit Holders only
>OR
>Mon-Sat
>8.00am - 6.30pm
>1 hour
>No return within 1 hour
The first line is contradicted by the rest of the sign.
Sponge Bob Square Pants
>>Rubbish. Many roads are empty during work hours, and very busy during
>>evenings and Sunday.
>
>
> Not in Town centres. Quite the opposite.
No its not 'quite the opposite' it depends entirely on the city/town,
the road and the surrounding area. You cannot make assumptions that a
town centre road will not be busy on Sunday.
--
SBSP
dakeb
I think it's already clear, but if it helps others understand then fair
enough.
dakeb
No it isn't.
Permit holders may park as long as they like any time they want to.
Anyone else may only park within the stated times.
Alex Heney
wrote:
>Alex Heney wrote:
>
>> > Permit Holders only
>> > OR
>> > Mon-Sat
>> > 8.00am - 6.30pm
>> > 1 hour
>> > No return within 1 hour
>> >
>> > I read this to mean that the restriction is in force from Monday to
>> > Saturday.
>> >
>>
>> What a weird way to read it.
>>
>> To me, it is quite obvious.
>>
>
>That's the way I would take it, too, but I can still see how someone
>can read it otherwise. It is literal, but but relies on strict meaning,
>IYKWIM.
>
>
>> I would guess that permit holders are likely to be local residents,
>> and the parking is reserved for them at the times they are most likely
>> to be at home.
>
>Strange that according to one poster, there are very few residents,
>maybe it depends who these residents are?
>
The main reason I have gone to Castle street when in Reading is for
the pie shop (of course!), but I was always under the impression that
beyond that, it was mostly residential.
But I will admit to never having looked closely. It may be that all or
most of the apparent houses are actually things like solicitors
offices etc. now.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Multitasking: Reading in the bathroom
Alex Heney
>
<snip>
>>
>> If, even without that wondrous TC5, drivers can pull in at Castle Street
>> until 6.30pm and park freely for an hour, surely if they park there at
>> 6.29pm they must be permitted their hour's stay?
>>
>> Better still, how about just ripping the signs down and replacing them
>> with wording which ordinary people can understand at a glance?"
>
>I cannot see what this has to do with the particular sign referenced by the
>OP, which makes no reference to a 'TC5'.
>
And neither does the article explain what one is. But from context, it
would appear to be the "Parking Permit" referred to on the sign.
>And the reporter is plain wrong. You can park for an hour until 6:30pm,
>after that time you may not be parked there even if you stopped at 6:29pm.
>
Agreed.
It isn't a case of "you have one hour's parking from when you arrive".
It is a case of "between these times, you may be parked there for up
to one hour at a time. Outside these times you may not park here at
all".
>I worry if so many motorists are so thick.
>
Yes, that is why so many are getting ticketed for parking there
illegally :-)
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
"Mr. Worf, scan that ship." "Aye Captain. 300 dpi?"
Alex Heney
wrote:
>On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:58:56 +0100, Sponge Bob Square Pants
><pa...@pants.com> wrote:
>
>>--s-p-o-n-i-x-- wrote:
>>
>>> No where does it say you
>>> can't park on a Sunday. It gives times for every other day of the week
>>> but not Sunday..
>>
>>Please tell me you are joking? Nobody can seriously be that stupid can they?
>
>Think about this logically.
>
>The sign is imposing restrictions when people can park. It makes sense
>to restrict parking during working hours as that's when roads are
>busiest.
>
First, the sign is NOT saying when you can't park, it is saying when
you *can* park. Although the OP did not say so, it will be a sign with
a white P in a blue background somewhere on it.
Second, when parking restrictions should be applied will vary
according to the roads concerned.
>However, evenings and Sundays are less busy.
>
Not in residential areas.
>In most places, parking is restricted during the day and is free
>evenings and weekends.
>
Agreed. Many of which shouldn't be, IMO. I have seen many "residents
parking schemes", where the times that parking is limited to residents
only are mainly the times when residents are least likely to need
them.
The fact that this is common does not make it right.
>The sign does very little to say that you shouldn't park on a Sunday.
>Indeed, it implies that it is OK to do so.
>
It is quite clear, if you actually think about what it says.
Parking is allowed if you have a permit.
Otherwise (i.e. without a permit), parking is only allowed between the
hours stated.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Mercifully free of the ravages of intelligence
Cynic
No, that would not make it exclusive. You would have to suffix it
with the words, "but not both".
e.g. "A person will die if they are permanently deprived of either
water or food," does not imply that deprivation of both will not
result in death.
--
Cynic
peter
>
> It's *really* not that difficult. The word "OR" is the big clue. Each
> statement either side of this mystical word is mutually exclusive. In other
> words, the conditions one side of the word "OR" can not exist at the same
> time as the conditions the other side of the word "OR". When one is in
> effect, the other isn't.
>
> permit holders are allowed to park there? Still with me?
>
> Good.
>
> The other set of conditions says that parking is allowed between the hours
> of 8am and 6:30pm, Monday to Saturday, with no returning allowed within an
> hour of leaving a parking space. No mention of permit holders there. So
> anyone can park for up to an hour, between 8am and 6:30pm, Monday to
> Saturday.
>
> the other set - "Permit Holders Only".
>
> Really, what on earth is so fucking difficult about this?
So using your interpretation, even if I am a permit holder I can only
park for one hour Mon-Sat 8:30 to 6:30, because the permit holder part
doesn't apply during those times. I don't think you'll find that is the
intention, permit holders may park for as long as they like at any
time.
dakeb
"peter" <pe...@pandasys.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1126702802....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Exactly, the sign clearly means time restrictions only apply to those
without permits.
AstraVanMan
>>> can't park on a Sunday. It gives times for every other day of the week
>>> but not Sunday..
>>
>>Please tell me you are joking? Nobody can seriously be that stupid can
>>they?
>
> Think about this logically.
>
> The sign is imposing restrictions when people can park. It makes sense
> to restrict parking during working hours as that's when roads are
> busiest.
Yes
> However, evenings and Sundays are less busy.
Yes.
> In most places, parking is restricted during the day and is free
> evenings and weekends.
And?
> The sign does very little to say that you shouldn't park on a Sunday.
> Indeed, it implies that it is OK to do so.
Bollocks does it. It quite clearly gives two enforcement situations, where
either one or the other is the one in use at any given time. That'll be the
word "OR". One enforcement situation is "Permit Holders Only". The other
says that parking is allowed for up to an hour during (broadly speaking)
business hours. Outside of the specified times, the other enforcement
situation applies.
--
Peter
"You're not a real UKRCMer until you've had your big end bearings go."
AstraVanMan
>>8.00am to 6.30pm other people can park there for 1 hour, with no return
>>within 1 hour.
>>
>>Not rocket science. Get your hand in your pocket.
>
> The sign is clearly designed to confuse. It should have "no parking at
> other times" added to the end.
No it shouldn't. Parking is allowed at other times. Just not to non-permit
holders.
> The OP should complain. My bet is the ticket will be waived.
--
AstraVanMan
>>his hour isn't up.
>
> Generally, with parking meters there'll be an accompanying sign that
> says: "Parking meters in use Monday to Saturday 8am to 5pm".
>
> Is it OK to park outside these times, ie on a Sunday?
Yes, if no other restrictions are posted.
AstraVanMan
>> park
>> unrestricted (i.e. for more than 1 hour) outside the stated hours then
>> there
>> would be no times that "permit holders only" applied to, and therefore no
>> point in mentioning permit holders.
>
> Yes, there would. During the stated hours permit holders would not be
> subject to the 1 hour restriction. But then the instructions would
> have read
Read what you're replying to. I said "outside the stated hours".
Non-permit holders are clearly not entitled to park outside the stated hours
full stop.
> "Mon-Sat 8:00-6:30pm, permit holders or waiting limited to 1 hour with no
> returning for 1 hour". ie the permit holder concession would come
> after the time restriction not before it.
WTF has that got to do with anything being discussed here? Parking
*outside* the stated hours by non permit holders was what was being
discussed.
AstraVanMan
>> statement either side of this mystical word is mutually exclusive. In
>> other
>> words, the conditions one side of the word "OR" can not exist at the same
>> time as the conditions the other side of the word "OR". When one is in
>> effect, the other isn't.
>
> That is a strange interpretation. Normally, in a condition, OR on its
> own is an inclusive OR. In English, to make it exclusive you would
> prefix the whole condition with 'either'.
No, that would be and/or. Either does help to clarify things, but I can't
see the problem with understand that two statements either side of "OR" mean
either one or the other, and not the possibility of both.
AstraVanMan
>>people.
>
> It would be less confusing:
>
> "Permit Holders only
>
> -OR-
>
> Mon-Sat 8.00am - 6.30pm
> 1 hour
> No return within 1 hour, no parking at other times"
How on earth would that be *less* confusing? Permit holders wouldn't know
what the hell was going on. The only way to make that clear, would be to
put "Non-permit holders:" at the top of the 2nd section, which, IMHO, is
wholly unneccessary.
Alex Heney
<news...@gmurray.org.uk> wrote:
That isn't true, but the previous poster is not correct either.
The two parts are not exclusive.
You can park there is you have a permit, or if the time is within the
ranges (for up to 1 hour), or if both are true.
But if neither are true (i.e. you don't have a permit AND it is
outside the specified times) then you can't park there.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
The best way to keep friends is not to give them away.
Alex Heney
wrote:
No it isn't.
Don't you understand the word "OR"?
Alex Heney
<Pe...@Whataloadofforeskinbollocks.co.uk> wrote:
>>> It's *really* not that difficult. The word "OR" is the big clue. Each
>>> statement either side of this mystical word is mutually exclusive. In
>>> other
>>> words, the conditions one side of the word "OR" can not exist at the same
>>> time as the conditions the other side of the word "OR". When one is in
>>> effect, the other isn't.
>>
>> That is a strange interpretation. Normally, in a condition, OR on its
>> own is an inclusive OR. In English, to make it exclusive you would
>> prefix the whole condition with 'either'.
>
>No, that would be and/or. Either does help to clarify things, but I can't
>see the problem with understand that two statements either side of "OR" mean
>either one or the other, and not the possibility of both.
Because it simply isn't the case. That is why we have "difficulty
understanding" it.
There is nothing there to say that both cannot apply.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
If at first you DO succeed, try not to look astonished!
sharky
> Please interpret this for me:
>
> Permit Holders only
> OR
> Mon-Sat
> 8.00am - 6.30pm
> 1 hour
> No return within 1 hour
>
> Saturday.
>
> afternoon. Was I wrong to, because I was given a ticket yesterday?
> Castle Street, Reading, if it's relevant.
>
Being bored, I just phoned Reading Parking Services 0118 939 0900 and
the definitive answer is:
Permits at anytime
Others can park during hours specified, NOT at all outside hours.
So well done 50% of posters!
The TC5 I brought up in another thread is a Zone in Reading, a residents
parking permit will have a zone code on it, so you can park in a couple
of streets around your home, but not in another zone with a different
designation - here you would be treated as just another motorist.
Some signs DO have these Zones printed on them thus
TC5 Permit Holders Only.
There you go then, pay the fine!
sharky
> "sharky" <bi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3op6ddF...@individual.net...
>
>>dakeb wrote:
>>
>>>"sharky" <bi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:3ooc6uF...@individual.net...
>>
>><snip for space>
>>
>>>>If, even without that wondrous TC5, drivers can pull in at Castle Street
>>>>until 6.30pm and park freely for an hour, surely if they park there at
>>>>6.29pm they must be permitted their hour's stay?
>>>>
>>>>Better still, how about just ripping the signs down and replacing them
>>>>with wording which ordinary people can understand at a glance?"
>>>
>>>
>>>I cannot see what this has to do with the particular sign referenced by
>
> the
>
>>>OP, which makes no reference to a 'TC5'.
>>>
>>>after that time you may not be parked there even if you stopped at
>
> 6:29pm.
>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>This READING newspaper report is about CASTLE STREET, READING - which is
>>where the OP got his TICKET! Read the original post!
>>
>>D'oh!
>>
>>It shows an ongoing problem with understanding of signs on the OP's
>>street, supposed need for a TC5 (I think the reporter intend this to
>>mean some sort of parking permit), people getting ticketed in the same
>>street for similar offences etc etc.
>>
>>Read the fucking thing properly yourself this time!
>>
>>Interestingly Castle Street does not appear on Readings list of streets
>>needing permits:
>>
>>
>
> http://www.reading.gov.uk/transportandstreets/General.asp?id=SX9452-A77FAF53
>
>
> Three facts:-
>
> The op's post said nothing about the need for a tc5 in his description of
> the sign, the report is presumably about a different sign.
>
> The reporter foolishly thinks he can park outside the designated times cos
> his hour isn't up.
>
> will get no further response from me.
zkat
It doesn't alter the fact the fact that this sort of sign *can*
potentially mislead a substantial number of people, not all necessarily
thick - the 90 posts following my original are adequate evidence of
that. One should not need a degree in algebraic logic or have to debate
the semantics of a public notice before deciding whether to comply with
it. Not that it can be done in the 15 seconds or less that anyone would
spend in making the decision on whether to park in a particular place
or not.
The culprit would seem to be the "Mon-Sat" wording and the use of the
"OR". It is common (but not correct, as someone pointed out) to see
situations where the explicit statement of a restriction actually means
that it does not apply outside the stated period. In the time that I
(and all the other drivers who were parked there) took to make the
decision, I would have assumed that the Mon-Sat restriction did not
preclude someone from parking on a Sunday. You see what you want to
see. I accept that I was wrong, to the apparent glee of some posters.
In fact, if I had properly applied the rule (NOT [A OR B] = NOT A AND
NOT B) to it, the answer would have been obvious. As it happened, I
ignored clause A and applied the negation to clause B on its own.
I agree with the person who suggested the addition of "No parking at
other times" to the sign.
Possibly pointless, but I will write to RPS and appeal.
Arfur Million
Alex Heney wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:08:27 GMT, wib...@email.com (s--p--o--n--i--x)
> wrote:
>
> >On 13 Sep 2005 07:36:06 -0700, "zkat" <zk...@europe.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Permit Holders only
> >>OR
> >>Mon-Sat
> >>8.00am - 6.30pm
> >>1 hour
> >>No return within 1 hour
> >
> >
> >The first line is contradicted by the rest of the sign.
>
> No it isn't.
>
> Don't you understand the word "OR"?
> --
Does it mean something different to "only"?
Regards,
Arfur
Christian McArdle
> the pie shop (of course!), but I was always under the impression that
> beyond that, it was mostly residential.
Castle St itself isn't very residential. It only really becomes so after the
roundabout, when it is Castle Hill. However, these signs have appeared all
over Reading, where it used to be strict permit only. They work very well,
as before, during the day, huge swathes of permit parking was empty, with no
parking available for local shops.
I got the meaning of the signs first time, but had to read them very
carefully. A friend of mine, who even has a permit got done when he had a
hire car, as even he (as a new local) took the alternative meaning. Indeed,
I think approaching 50% take the main alternative meaning (free parking
outside the hours, 1 hour for non-permit or unlimited for permits during the
stated times).
I think they should reword the signs, as it is clear that only those with a
legal turn of mind can understand them reliably.
I would prefer:
8-6 Mon-Sat (most have now been amended to Mon-Sun)
1 hour, no return within 1 hour
No parking at other times
OR
Permit Holders at any time
It's the non-permit holders who need to know first, so should be listed at
the top. Permit holders will already know, so can be second.
Christian.
Cynic
>I agree with the person who suggested the addition of "No parking at
>other times" to the sign.
Although the meaning of the sign is clear to myself when reading it on
the newsgroup, with all the parking signs that I see regularly IRL,
the times on the sign refer to some sort of restriction, and times
outside those shown are unrestricted, so I would probably have misread
the sign as well had I not been specifically alerted to read it
carefully.
My preference would be for the sign to start with "No Parking except
..." which would immediately alert me to the fact that the default
condition is that parking is not permitted.
--
Cynic
Derek ^
wrote:
>On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:43:52 +0100, Graham Murray
><news...@gmurray.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>"AstraVanMan" <Pe...@Whataloadofforeskinbollocks.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>> It's *really* not that difficult. The word "OR" is the big clue. Each
>>> statement either side of this mystical word is mutually exclusive. In other
>>> words, the conditions one side of the word "OR" can not exist at the same
>>> time as the conditions the other side of the word "OR". When one is in
>>> effect, the other isn't.
>>
>>That is a strange interpretation. Normally, in a condition, OR on its
>>own is an inclusive OR. In English, to make it exclusive you would
>>prefix the whole condition with 'either'.
>
>That isn't true, but the previous poster is not correct either.
>
>The two parts are not exclusive.
>
>You can park there is you have a permit, or if the time is within the
>ranges (for up to 1 hour), or if both are true.
>
>But if neither are true (i.e. you don't have a permit AND it is
>outside the specified times) then you can't park there.
I am not familiar with such a situation. A situation that our council
here in Leeds frequently tries to control, and I commonly encounter,
is where commuters drive to within 3 miles of the city centre, dump
their car in a residential area maybe in a space in a street of small
shops and get the bus for the last 10 mins, thus denying shoppers and
residents the use of the space for the whole of the working day,
losing business for the shopkeepers, and amenity to the residents.
After the end of the business day or on Sundays there is no problem.
To address this issue the council made a parking restriction. Permit
holders may park anytime, otherwise parking is allowed Mon -Sat
9-00am >6-00pm, 2 hrs max, no return within 2 hours.
Castle Street Reading for all I know might have a special problem on
Sundays, but coming from Leeds I wouldn't necessarily anticipate it.
It being a special problem , it behoves the Council to ensure their
signs to motorists are un ambiguous and clear,
Here, where parking is permitted, even if expensive during the working
week, it is free on Sundays. I always imagined it was because the
Traffic Wardens didn't work after 6-00pm on Saturday, 'till Monday
morning. But nowadays, with Sunday opening, some of them do.
It is not reasonable to expect motorists to construct Venn Diagrams to
determine whether they can park or not and still be at the mercy as to
whether the "OR" is/is not an exclusive "OR" <and the rest>.
The length of this thread is sufficient in itself to show that the
meaning of the parking notice was ambiguous and the PCN should be
appealed.
DG
Derek ^
<Pe...@Whataloadofforeskinbollocks.co.uk> wrote:
>>>But Permit Holders ARE allowed to park at other times, that would confuse
>>>people.
>>
>> It would be less confusing:
>>
>> "Permit Holders only
>>
>> -OR-
>>
>> Mon-Sat 8.00am - 6.30pm
>> 1 hour
>> No return within 1 hour, no parking at other times"
>
>How on earth would that be *less* confusing? Permit holders wouldn't know
>what the hell was going on.
Give over. :-)
Permit Holders have the terms and conditions of their residents permit
to rely on. They don't drive up to the sign every day to see whether
they can park or not.
Non residents permit holding motorists have to go on what's written on
the sign
> The only way to make that clear, would be to put "Non-permit holders:"
>at the top of the 2nd section, which, IMHO, is
>wholly unneccessary.
Hey, nobody here knows what intention the council had when they made
the restriction. Let alone whether the sign actually gives effect to
the restriction they intended, and that alone ...
DG
Derek ^
wrote:
>
>What a weird way to read it.
>
>To me, it is quite obvious.
>
>Permit holders may park there at any time.
>
>Anyone else may only park there between 8:00AM and 6:30PM Monday to
>Saturday, and only for a maximum of 1 hour at a time.
>
>I would guess that permit holders are likely to be local residents,
>and the parking is reserved for them at the times they are most likely
>to be at home.
Like at 3-00am Sunday. But not at 6-00pm Friday. ???
More commonly, parking is reserved for them when commuters (Or even
local workers who would tend to use the space a whole day) compete
with them for parking spaces in their own streets.
>>I'm not a permit holder, and I parked there at 4pm on a Sunday
>>afternoon. Was I wrong to, because I was given a ticket yesterday?
>>Castle Street, Reading, if it's relevant.
>
>Yes, you were wrong.
There's no wrong and right definitive in isolation. The Council has
it's bit to get right too, and to me the Council's bit looks iffy.
DG
PeteM
>Well, that's cleared it up then.
>
>It doesn't alter the fact the fact that this sort of sign *can*
>potentially mislead a substantial number of people, not all necessarily
>thick - the 90 posts following my original are adequate evidence of
>that. One should not need a degree in algebraic logic or have to debate
>the semantics of a public notice before deciding whether to comply with
>it. Not that it can be done in the 15 seconds or less that anyone would
>spend in making the decision on whether to park in a particular place
>or not.
>
I don't think you have answered our question: Was the text you quoted
attached to a "Parking permitted" sign (white P in blue background) or
to a "Parking forbidden" sign (yellow and black, and/or yellow lines on
road)?
--
PeteM
Alex Heney
<arfur_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Alex Heney wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:08:27 GMT, wib...@email.com (s--p--o--n--i--x)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On 13 Sep 2005 07:36:06 -0700, "zkat" <zk...@europe.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>Permit Holders only
>> >>OR
>> >>Mon-Sat
>> >>8.00am - 6.30pm
>> >>1 hour
>> >>No return within 1 hour
>> >
>> >
>> >The first line is contradicted by the rest of the sign.
>>
>> No it isn't.
>>
>> Don't you understand the word "OR"?
>
>Does it mean something different to "only"?
>
Of course.
But it means there are two separate clauses.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
If at first you don't succeed, you must be a programmer.
sharky
http://www.reading.gov.uk/general.asp?id=sx9452-a77fae85
Seems they use two shades of blue for parking for permit holders, short
stops - no mention of mixed use!
http://www.reading.gov.uk/transportandstreets/General.asp?id=SX9452-A77FAF53
"Transport and Streets
Residents parking scheme - Streets in Permit Zones
Not all properties in these streets are eligible for permits.
Parking permit zones in Reading are classified as either SHARED USE
zones or NON SHARED USE zones.
A shared use zone enables people who do not have a permit for that zone
to park at certain times of the day, as indicated on the signposts
within the zone."
Note last line 'when you can park WITHOUT permit'