Home distilling
Triffid
UK site is selling home distilling kits quite openly - although, perhaps
significantly, I cannot find any information on the site about the legality
of using the equipment.
http://www.wineworks.co.uk/product/still-spirits-air-still-starter-kit/
A quick Google brings up much conflicting information about the legal
situation, from it being completely illegal in the UK, to you being able to
obtain a free licence from HMRC so long as your still is 4 litres or less,
and the results are for your own consumption.
Anyone got definitive information on the subject?
--
Triff
Triffid
Just found another site selling stills but having this disclaimer:
"It is illegal to manufacture spirits in the UK without a distiller's
licence which is required under the provisions of section 12 of the
Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1979 and this includes manufacture for
"own/domestic use".
Public Notice 39 - "Spirits production in the UK" dated April 2010 provides
further information about HM Revenue and Custom's requirements.
If you require further assistance then please contact the National Advice
Service on Telephone 0845 010 9000
or www.hmrc.gov.uk. Where you can obtain or view public notice 39."
--
Triff
Richard McKenzie
Had a bumper crop of spuds this year Triff?
gareth erskine-jones
wrote:
>Triffid wrote:
>> I always thought that distilling spirits at home in the UK was
>> illegal. This UK site is selling home distilling kits quite openly -
>> although, perhaps significantly, I cannot find any information on the
>> site about the legality of using the equipment.
>>
>> http://www.wineworks.co.uk/product/still-spirits-air-still-starter-kit/
>>
>> A quick Google brings up much conflicting information about the legal
>> situation, from it being completely illegal in the UK, to you being
>> able to obtain a free licence from HMRC so long as your still is 4
>> litres or less, and the results are for your own consumption.
>>
>> Anyone got definitive information on the subject?
>
>Just found another site selling stills but having this disclaimer:
>
>"It is illegal to manufacture spirits in the UK without a distiller's
>licence which is required under the provisions of section 12 of the
>Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1979 and this includes manufacture for
>"own/domestic use".
>
>Public Notice 39 - "Spirits production in the UK" dated April 2010 provides
>further information about HM Revenue and Custom's requirements.
You have to have a license, and they won't give you one - paragraph
2.3 implies that you have to have a still with a capacity of 1800
litres...
gsej
Jethro
As far as I am aware it's "unlawful" rather than "illegal". It's not
something the police give a shit about anyway.
As a seasoned home distiller, the genies out of the bottle now. I met
one of the UK distributors of the "Smart Still" range of home
distilling equipment, and he had a meeting with HMRC where they
admitted they were completely outmaneuvered by the speed with which UK
home distilling took off. He left with the impression that they didn't
have the resources to tackle it, and (more interestingly) were loath
to draw attention to the fact that it can be done so easily.
My local home brew shop says over 50% of his sales is for distilling
equipment and sundries.
To answer the question ... it can make quite good quality hooch. Not
as smooth as a £30 malt scotch (for example) but considering it comes
out to be about £5/litre it's certainly more than 1/6th as good.
Jethro
Just a wee add on. There is no "definitive" information on the subject
- again (I suspect) because HMRC don't really want to make it known
you *can* home distill. Their FAQs and website are totally aimed at
commercial distilling operations, to maintain the illusion that
distilling is something for the big boys.
As an aside, the actual still sold by Still Spirits is technically
sold as a "water purifier". Which it is. I use it to prepare 4L of
clean water which I then use to dilute the alcohol from distilling
down from 60% to 40% strength, so the taste of the liquor is cleaner.
RastaMouse
>
> "It is illegal to manufacture spirits in the UK without a distiller's
> licence which is required under the provisions of section 12 of the
> Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1979 and this includes manufacture for
> "own/domestic use".
>
It is illegal but HMRC don't chase anyone up unless it is being done
commercially. I have distilled Moonshine for years with no problems.
martin
Those little stills are too small for that :) It's painful doing the
stripping run in batches of 4 litres (I expect)
RastaMouse
> I met
> one of the UK distributors of the "Smart Still" range of home
> distilling equipment,
Pah. less than a novice.
martin
It's probably illegal.
Jethro
25L wash gives 4.8L of 60% abv, which dilutes to 7.2L of 40%. Each run
takes about 2 1/2 hours, although you can speed it up if you preheat
the wash (I don't)
Triffid
Thanks for that. I'm a scotch man myself so if it's ok - I may well consider
buying myself one of these kits.
Hopefully it will be better than the yeasty beer I used to homebrew many
moons ago!
--
Triff
martin
That's what I mean by 'painful' that's a weekend gone.
However, if you want plain spirit you can do much, much better than that
even with these little pot stills.
Put your wash into the still and do a stripping run until your
hydrometer shows you're only getting 5% alcohol off. That gives you
about 25% ABV low wines with no rubbish in it. Chuck the tails down the
sink.
Then do a spirit run with about 30ml going into a separate container -
you can actually see the break-point here if you watch it carefully
because it starts to drip then stops and starts again as more heat goes
into the mixture.
Swap containers and collect spirit until your hydrometer shows you're
pulling 60% off the still. You should have about 80%ABV in your
collector now. Just over a litre. But this is good stuff now. Swap
containers again.
From the 30ml of heads put 1/2 for windscreen washer, spirit burners etc.
Now you want two jars. One for the high spirit and the other for
recycling. Put the rest of the heads into the recycling jar and continue
the still until your only getting 5% out of it. Put that lot into the
recycling jar.
The rest tip down the sink.
The recycling jar gets tipped into the next lot of low wines and recycled.
Now cut the spirit to 40% and sit on activated carbon for a few weeks.
Forget the little trickle things that come with the still, get 1/4 kilo
of the stuff and do it properly.
After a few weeks run through a coffee filter and bring back up to full
strength by doing a final run through the still. You don't need to
separate out heads this time just collect until it's at the strength you
want, swap containers and collect again until you're only pulling 5%
which you dump into the recycling jar. Dump the rest down the sink.
A lot more effort but much much better results.
For a less painful time get a bigger boiler and use a column :)
martin
> Jethro wrote:
>> To answer the question ... it can make quite good quality hooch. Not
>> as smooth as a £30 malt scotch (for example) but considering it comes
>> out to be about £5/litre it's certainly more than 1/6th as good.
>
> Thanks for that. I'm a scotch man myself so if it's ok - I may well
> consider buying myself one of these kits.
>
> Hopefully it will be better than the yeasty beer I used to homebrew many
> moons ago!
>
Don't try and distill beer lol. The hops concentrate and it's
disgusting, it also puts hop-oil all over the inside of your condenser
and it's a bugger to clean. You can use just malt of course which is fine :)
gareth erskine-jones
absolutely.
anyway, half the fun is in building a still yourself.
gsej
Triffid
I just came across this on Yahoo Answers:
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080410210757AAvsN53
"Thanks, I found out from HM Revenue and Customs that I can apply for a
refiners license which is free. I can have a Still that can hold 5 litres or
less as it will be for home use, and I must let them know what I distill,
and ingredients used but I dont have to pay any duty if it is not for sale."
Don't know how accurate that is.
--
Triff
Sandy
>> Anyone got definitive information on the subject?
>
> It's probably illegal.
That's some good legal advice there, Lou.
Mike Ross
I think you'll find that's for people who use a small still to distill essential
oils for aromatherapy etc.
Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
alang
Back in the 60s there was a water still next to my work area. Used
for distilling water for miners lamp batteries and the traction
batteries used in coal mines. It got inspected every couple of years
by someone from customs and excise to check no one was using it for
moonshine. It would be difficult to do anyway given the volume of
distilled water we used. The still was going round the clock every day
of the year. When it broke down we had to buy in water to keep going.
gareth erskine-jones
wrote:
>On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 12:44:07 +0100, "Triffid" <nos...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>martin wrote:
>>> On 29/03/2011 10:25, Triffid wrote:
>>>> I always thought that distilling spirits at home in the UK was
>>>> illegal. This UK site is selling home distilling kits quite openly -
>>>> although, perhaps significantly, I cannot find any information on
>>>> the site about the legality of using the equipment.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.wineworks.co.uk/product/still-spirits-air-still-starter-kit/
>>>>
>>>> A quick Google brings up much conflicting information about the legal
>>>> situation, from it being completely illegal in the UK, to you being
>>>> able to obtain a free licence from HMRC so long as your still is 4
>>>> litres or less, and the results are for your own consumption.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone got definitive information on the subject?
>>>
>>> It's probably illegal.
>>
>>I just came across this on Yahoo Answers:
>>
>>http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080410210757AAvsN53
>>
>>"Thanks, I found out from HM Revenue and Customs that I can apply for a
>>refiners license which is free. I can have a Still that can hold 5 litres or
>>less as it will be for home use, and I must let them know what I distill,
>>and ingredients used but I dont have to pay any duty if it is not for sale."
>>
>>Don't know how accurate that is.
>
>I think you'll find that's for people who use a small still to distill essential
>oils for aromatherapy etc.
Why would you need a license for that?
gsej
Michael Swift
<inv...@invalid.net> writes
>Back in the 60s there was a water still next to my work area. Used for
>distilling water for miners lamp batteries and the traction batteries used in
>coal mines. It got inspected every couple of years by someone from
>customs and excise to check no one was using it for moonshine. It would
>be difficult to do anyway given the volume of distilled water we used. The
>still was going round the clock every day of the year. When it broke down
>we had to buy in water to keep going.
When I started work at a local dye manufacturers in the early 60's they
used to have absolute alcohol delivered for certain processes. There
always used to be someone below the storage tank with a couple of
buckets 'taking a sample' before the Revenue denatured it with Pyridine
and Methyl Violet, it made a passable liqueur when mixed with coffee or
orange essence.
Mike
--
Michael Swift We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.
Kirkheaton We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.
Yorkshire Halvard Lange
Ophelia
"Michael Swift" <mike....@yeton.co.uk> wrote in message
news:U6uNcKAH...@ntlworld.com...
> In article <gso3p6dks15oud2g0...@4ax.com>, alang
> <inv...@invalid.net> writes
>>Back in the 60s there was a water still next to my work area. Used for
>>distilling water for miners lamp batteries and the traction batteries used
>>in
>>coal mines. It got inspected every couple of years by someone from
>>customs and excise to check no one was using it for moonshine. It would
>>be difficult to do anyway given the volume of distilled water we used. The
>>still was going round the clock every day of the year. When it broke down
>>we had to buy in water to keep going.
>
> When I started work at a local dye manufacturers in the early 60's they
> used to have absolute alcohol delivered for certain processes. There
> always used to be someone below the storage tank with a couple of buckets
> 'taking a sample' before the Revenue denatured it with Pyridine and Methyl
> Violet, it made a passable liqueur when mixed with coffee or orange
> essence.
Damn.. where are they now?? :)
--
--
Peter Crosland
news:4d91a58c$0$4916$a826...@postbox2.readnews.com...
What on earth makes you think that the HMR&C details are wrong?
Peter Crosland
Peter Crosland
Just how hard is it to understand? HMR&C are the last word unless you want
to challenge them in court.
Peter Crosland
Michael Swift
<Oph...@Elsinore.me.uk> writes
>> When I started work at a local dye manufacturers in the early 60's they
>> used to have absolute alcohol delivered for certain processes. There
>> always used to be someone below the storage tank with a couple of buckets
>> 'taking a sample' before the Revenue denatured it with Pyridine and Methyl
>> Violet, it made a passable liqueur when mixed with coffee or orange
>> essence.
>
>Damn.. where are they now?? :)
Long defunct I'm afraid, it was a dyeing business :-)
Ophelia
"Michael Swift" <mike....@yeton.co.uk> wrote in message
news:elM$7KANng...@ntlworld.com...
> In article <8vedgr...@mid.individual.net>, Ophelia
> <Oph...@Elsinore.me.uk> writes
>>> When I started work at a local dye manufacturers in the early 60's they
>>> used to have absolute alcohol delivered for certain processes. There
>>> always used to be someone below the storage tank with a couple of
>>> buckets
>>> 'taking a sample' before the Revenue denatured it with Pyridine and
>>> Methyl
>>> Violet, it made a passable liqueur when mixed with coffee or orange
>>> essence.
>>
>>Damn.. where are they now?? :)
>
> Long defunct I'm afraid, it was a dyeing business :-)
heh:)
--
--
alang
<mike....@yeton.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <gso3p6dks15oud2g0...@4ax.com>, alang
><inv...@invalid.net> writes
>>Back in the 60s there was a water still next to my work area. Used for
>>distilling water for miners lamp batteries and the traction batteries used in
>>coal mines. It got inspected every couple of years by someone from
>>customs and excise to check no one was using it for moonshine. It would
>>be difficult to do anyway given the volume of distilled water we used. The
>>still was going round the clock every day of the year. When it broke down
>>we had to buy in water to keep going.
>
>When I started work at a local dye manufacturers in the early 60's they
>used to have absolute alcohol delivered for certain processes. There
>always used to be someone below the storage tank with a couple of
>buckets 'taking a sample' before the Revenue denatured it with Pyridine
>and Methyl Violet, it made a passable liqueur when mixed with coffee or
>orange essence.
>
You need customs approved measures now to transfer stuff like that. I
suppose it would be possible to get away with a few litres per
thousand now but no more
Rasta Pickles
>
> Just how hard is it to understand? HMR&C are the last word unless you want
> to challenge them in court.
>
And then when you do, as Hoverspeed did wrt the goonies at Dover
harrassing British motorists returning from booze cruises, the court
will find in your favour.
But HMR&C just carry on as if nothing had happened.
You won't beat them, regardless of the merits of your case.
Mike Ross
wrote:
Because HMG, personified as HMRC, have a long standing Still Paranoia Disorder;
IIRC you need a license to do anything with a still other than keep it on your
shelf as an ornament.
The law in this area was drawn up & worded explicitly to *prevent* new, small,
and boutique distillers of spirit from entering the market; something I think
likely to be illegally anti-competitive.
Mike Ross
wrote:
>On Tue, 29 Mar 2011 10:34:17 +0100, "Triffid" <nos...@yahoo.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>Triffid wrote:
>>> I always thought that distilling spirits at home in the UK was
>>> illegal. This UK site is selling home distilling kits quite openly -
>>> although, perhaps significantly, I cannot find any information on the
>>> site about the legality of using the equipment.
>>>
>>> http://www.wineworks.co.uk/product/still-spirits-air-still-starter-kit/
>>>
>>> A quick Google brings up much conflicting information about the legal
>>> situation, from it being completely illegal in the UK, to you being
>>> able to obtain a free licence from HMRC so long as your still is 4
>>> litres or less, and the results are for your own consumption.
>>>
>>> Anyone got definitive information on the subject?
>>
>>Just found another site selling stills but having this disclaimer:
>>
>>"It is illegal to manufacture spirits in the UK without a distiller's
>>licence which is required under the provisions of section 12 of the
>>Alcoholic Liquor Duties Act 1979 and this includes manufacture for
>>"own/domestic use".
>>
>>Public Notice 39 - "Spirits production in the UK" dated April 2010 provides
>>further information about HM Revenue and Custom's requirements.
>
>You have to have a license, and they won't give you one - paragraph
>2.3 implies that you have to have a still with a capacity of 1800
>litres...
I addressed that in my reply elsewhere: the law in this area was drawn up &
worded explicitly to *prevent* new, small, and boutique distillers of spirit
from entering the market.
I think that's very likely to be illegally anti-competitive. Refusing to license
small experimental stills acts to prevent new businesses getting off the ground.
gareth erskine-jones
wrote:
I'd be interested if you had a source for that - I'm somewhat
skeptical about it. What is a still? A boiler and a condensor. Does
every school which has a graham condensor and a round bottomed flask
need some sort of license? I don't see how that could possibly be the
case, but then, we do live in a land where picking a fungus from your
own lawn and handing it to someone can get you a life sentence, so
perhaps it is true.
>The law in this area was drawn up & worded explicitly to *prevent* new, small,
>and boutique distillers of spirit from entering the market; something I think
>likely to be illegally anti-competitive.
It does seem to be close to impossible to get a license to distill
alcohol on a small scale, but so far as I can tell, that's nothing to
do with rules about possessing stills.
gsej
Ian Jackson
erskine-jones <gs...@uberdog.net> writes
>
>
>It does seem to be close to impossible to get a license to distill
>alcohol on a small scale, but so far as I can tell, that's nothing to
>do with rules about possessing stills.
>
Instead of evaporation, what about freezing?
--
Ian
martin
not good. You're concentrating heads as well as hearts. That's for the winos
AndyW
news:NvVTw5NS...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
Freeze distilling does work but it is of limited quality.
Using domestic equipment you can get to about 20% or so before the alcohol
acts as an anti-freeze. If you have access to more heavyweight equipment
then you can push this up a little (or a lot of the liquified gases like
N2).
As you are concentrating the alcohol you are also concentrating the other
constituents and so a 'robust' wine is likely to become overpowerful in
flavour.
Andy
Jeff
>
> I'd be interested if you had a source for that - I'm somewhat
> skeptical about it. What is a still? A boiler and a condensor. Does
> every school which has a graham condensor and a round bottomed flask
> need some sort of license? I don't see how that could possibly be the
> case, but then, we do live in a land where picking a fungus from your
> own lawn and handing it to someone can get you a life sentence, so
> perhaps it is true.
Certainly when I was in school in the 70's our chemistry teacher showed
us the licence that was require for just what you are describing. I
don't know if the rules have changed since.
Jeff
gareth erskine-jones
a license for a condenser? or for a flask? or for owning the pair?
would you have had to have one if you placed a pebble on a sheet of
polythene (ray mears style) to distill water from mud?
I made my first condenser (which was used for distilling water &
various plant oils) in the 70s, under the tutelage of my father (a
chemistry teacher). I'd be very surprised if what we did was illegal,
although I suppose he could have been ignorant of the law.
I'm still skeptical I'm afraid.. the apparatus required for
distillation is so basic, and used for so many things besides making
alcoholic drink that licensing it would surely be completely
unmanageable.
gsej
root
I would expect the license would be for the system as a whole, not
for the individual components. Just like a private individual is
permitted to own (CH3)2CO and they are permitted to own H2O2.
They would probably find someone would like to have a chat
if they were found to be owning too much at too great a concentration.
As with all things (even legal ones) reasonableness and common-
sense are a big part to what one is allowed to do - or not.
Jeff
the condenser
Jeff
Mike Ross
wrote:
I've been reading about this for entertainment. Have a squint at:
where it talks about certain requirements having the force of law.
Interestingly, having a license does NOT appear to be one of those sections. It
probably has an administrative civil penalty, but isn't actually a crime by my
reading of that document.
Also:
"2.3 Can you refuse or revoke a licence?
We may refuse to issue a licence, or revoke an existing licence, where:
the largest still to be used has a capacity below 18 hectolitres, or
you cease to manufacture spirits."
So it appears there's nothing in law specifying the minimum size of still; it's
just their policy that they *may* (not 'will') refuse smaller stills. If they
consistently refuse to exercise discretion and license smaller still, that would
seem to me to be irrational (and anti-competitive, as I said) and subject to
judicial review - and if you went ahead and distilled anyway, it would seem to
be a good defence against any penalty they tried to assess for unlicensed
distilling; that you applied for one, but they refused on irrational grounds.
gareth erskine-jones
It's covered by the same rules -
This notice explains what we require when spirits are produced in the
United Kingdom. Although written with traditional whisky distilleries
in mind, the same general requirements and conditions will apply at
all spirit production premises, whether the spirits are produced:
* from fermented cereals
* from fermented molasses
* by "cracking" ethylene gas, or
* by any other process.
gsej