UK Online Bookmakers - would this be fraud?

bea...@hotmail.co.uk

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Jul 26, 2012, 6:57:27 PM7/26/12

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UK Online Bookmakers - would this be fraud?

Many of you will no doubt be aware that most Bookies offer sign up
bonuses to entice new customers.

This guy certainly was:

"A man who made nearly £80,000 from online gambling after using
fraudulent international
passports, identity cards and false utility bills to open various
online accounts has been jailed today."

http://content.met.police.uk/News/Man-jailed-for-Bonus-Abuse/1400007796996/1257246745756

Now obviously his behavior was clearly fraudulent. "Stealing" the
identities of people i.e. doing it without their knowledge or
consent.

However, what about if he had their permission? Would this be fraud/
any other type of criminal offense?

tia

Bear

Deux

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Jul 26, 2012, 9:12:45 PM7/26/12

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On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 15:57:27 -0700, bearsky wrote:

> However, what about if he had their permission? Would this be fraud/ any
> other type of criminal offense?

No. There's a forum on MoneySavingExpert about betting and many people
there open multiple accounts under the name of friends and family in
order to take advantage of bonuses multiple times.

fred

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Jul 27, 2012, 3:51:58 AM7/27/12

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In article <QJ6dnRphBqeQdozN...@supernews.com>, Deux
<de...@none.none> writes

Sounds like obtaining an advantage by deception to me.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

Peter Crosland

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Jul 27, 2012, 4:22:02 AM7/27/12

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The fraud is on the bookmaker. The sign terms and conditions will
contain a clause to the effect that the details given are correct and
not false. Putting incorrect details in constitutes fraud.

--
Peter Crosland

Mel Rowing

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Jul 27, 2012, 4:43:07 AM7/27/12

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On Jul 26, 11:57 pm, bear...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:

> Now obviously his behavior was clearly fraudulent. "Stealing" the
> identities of people i.e. doing it without their knowledge or
> consent.
>
> However, what about if he had their permission? Would this be fraud/
> any other type of criminal offense?

Your identity is simply a set of intrinsic characteristics that
define you. It is not a right,entitlement or piece of property
ownership of which can physically be given, sold, hired out ot
otherwise transferred to another party.

So you take on another's identity with or without their permission
then that is deception. If it can be shown that the deception was
intended to procure advantage then that is fraud.

Deux

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Jul 27, 2012, 6:20:28 AM7/27/12

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They wouldn't be incorrect details though, they would relate to a real
person.

Deux

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Jul 27, 2012, 6:24:22 AM7/27/12

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On Fri, 27 Jul 2012 01:43:07 -0700, Mel Rowing wrote:

> So you take on another's identity with or without their permission then
> that is deception. If it can be shown that the deception was intended to
> procure advantage then that is fraud.

And what if you don't take on their identify, but open an account and
operate it on their behalf?

Judith

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Jul 27, 2012, 10:36:37 AM7/27/12

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No surprise Betfred would think that.

S

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Jul 27, 2012, 12:02:06 PM7/27/12

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On 26 July, 23:57, bear...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> UK Online Bookmakers - would this be fraud?
>
> Many of you will no doubt be aware that most Bookies offer sign up
> bonuses to entice new customers.
>
> This guy certainly was:
>
> "A man who made nearly £80,000 from online gambling after using
> fraudulent international
> passports, identity cards and false utility bills to open various
> online accounts has been jailed today."
>

> http://content.met.police.uk/News/Man-jailed-for-Bonus-Abuse/14000077...

>
> Now obviously his behavior was clearly fraudulent. "Stealing" the
> identities of people i.e. doing it without their knowledge or
> consent.
>
> However, what about if he had their permission? Would this be fraud/
> any other type of criminal offense?
>

The terms and conditions typically state that only one account per
person, household or address is allowed, that you must not allow
anyone else to use your account and that you must not play
professionally or as part of a syndicate.

So opening an account on someone else's name even with their
permission would not be OK, but if you stood behind them and told them
what bets to place and then they gave you part of the profit
afterwards, this would probably be OK.

Deux

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Jul 27, 2012, 7:20:22 PM7/27/12

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On Fri, 27 Jul 2012 09:02:06 -0700, S wrote:

> The terms and conditions typically state that only one account per
> person, household or address is allowed

I've never seen terms and conditions like this. Why would a bookie want
to prevent people from becoming paying customers?

bea...@hotmail.co.uk

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Jul 27, 2012, 9:13:32 PM7/27/12

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Many of the bookies do have exactly these types of conditions. One
account per household, one per IP address, email etc.

Others are what they call partner friendly. Basicaly these ones don't
mind if a second person signs up from the same address. Not sure how
they'd feel about more than two.

Bear

bea...@hotmail.co.uk

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Jul 27, 2012, 9:19:54 PM7/27/12

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> afterwards, this would probably be OK.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

This would certainly be a breach of the Bookies T&C.

However this was not the issue. My concern was would/does this
constitute a criminal offense? One thing for the Bookie to close your
account but quite another thing for the Police to come and arrest you.

Bear

bea...@hotmail.co.uk

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Jul 27, 2012, 9:23:09 PM7/27/12

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This is really the key question? If you operate on their behalf? A
sort of betting proxy if you will.

Anybody care to venture an answer?

Bear

bea...@hotmail.co.uk

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Jul 27, 2012, 9:31:19 PM7/27/12

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I've seen this forum too. It's really popular amongst the matched
betting community.

Here's a wiki for the subject in case anybody wants to know more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matched_betting

I was also aware that people do have multiple accounts and sign up
using friends and family.

However I thought "just because people are doing it" is no guarantee
that it is actually legal.

Bear

I

S

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Jul 28, 2012, 2:24:14 PM7/28/12

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Obtaining money to which you know you are not entitled, by deception,
I think this fits the definition of fraud.

S

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Jul 28, 2012, 2:23:08 PM7/28/12

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This is from William Hill:
"Your Account must be registered in Your own, correct, name and
personal details and it shall only be issued once for You and not
duplicated through any other person, family, household, address
(postal or IP), email address, or any environment where computers are
shared (e.g. schools, workplaces, public libraries etc), computer (or
other access device), and/or account in respect of the Services. "

Online bookmakers and casinos offer bonuses in the hope of attracting
customers. There is no profit in letting someone benefit from a sign-
up bonus unlimited number of times.

Graham Murray

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Jul 28, 2012, 2:59:47 PM7/28/12

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S <s_pick...@yahoo.com> writes:

> This is from William Hill:
> "Your Account must be registered in Your own, correct, name and

But as has been pointed out here several times before, there is no
such thing as a "correct" name in UK law.

bea...@hotmail.co.uk

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Jul 28, 2012, 6:15:47 PM7/28/12

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> I think this fits the definition of fraud.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

But the named person on the account would be "entitled" to the money.
There's no deception per se. If you look at it this way. The Bookie
would be quite happy to payout (or at least this would not be a
criminal offense) if the named person had actually opened the account
and placed the bets themselves.

The question is "would it be a criminal offense if the named person
had authorized a proxy to do this on their behalf".

?

Any opinions?

Bear

S

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Aug 10, 2012, 2:22:17 PM8/10/12

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On 28 July, 19:59, Graham Murray <newsp...@gmurray.org.uk> wrote:

Feel free to argue this point with Will Hill's lawyers. However, if
you have no suitable ID with the name you use, you may have a problem
getting paid.

S

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Aug 10, 2012, 2:22:48 PM8/10/12

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But it is not authorised by the bookie.