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TTman
Jun 21, 2022, 5:54:20 PM6/21/22
to
In October last year my mother passed away. My wayward son was a joint
account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the executor
of my mother's will and have been granted probate. However, the joint
account is now in the name of my son( since January this year) and he
has continued to allow direct debits in my mum's name to be taken. Gas,
electric,broadband etc. I have retrospectively asked the bank to rectify
the situation by way of renaming the account' estate of my mother'. I
have yet to hear from them.Yes, I made a mistake thinking I could trust
my son....Either way, this is going to be a long slog, but is allowing
DDs to continue to be taken a civil or criminal matter? I need to be
going down the right path now...
--
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account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the executor
of my mother's will and have been granted probate. However, the joint
account is now in the name of my son( since January this year) and he
has continued to allow direct debits in my mum's name to be taken. Gas,
electric,broadband etc. I have retrospectively asked the bank to rectify
the situation by way of renaming the account' estate of my mother'. I
have yet to hear from them.Yes, I made a mistake thinking I could trust
my son....Either way, this is going to be a long slog, but is allowing
DDs to continue to be taken a civil or criminal matter? I need to be
going down the right path now...
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Andy Burns
Jun 22, 2022, 3:15:37 AM6/22/22
to
TTman wrote:
> I have retrospectively asked the bank to rectify the situation by way of
> renaming the account' estate of my mother'.
AIUI, a joint account automatically passes to the survivor(s) after death, 50%
> I have retrospectively asked the bank to rectify the situation by way of
> renaming the account' estate of my mother'.
(or 33% whatever) of the value at death needs to be considered towards IHT.
David McNeish
Jun 22, 2022, 3:39:55 AM6/22/22
to
On Tuesday, 21 June 2022 at 22:54:20 UTC+1, TTman wrote:
> is allowing
> DDs to continue to be taken a civil or criminal matter?
Neither really. The problem was it being made a joint account in the first
> is allowing
> DDs to continue to be taken a civil or criminal matter?
place, rather than e.g. the son using a POA to operate an account in mum's
sole name. I don't think the bank are doing anything wrong, if that's your
question.
Martin Brown
Jun 22, 2022, 9:39:50 AM6/22/22
to
On 22/06/2022 09:01, Jeff wrote:
> should close or freeze her accounts with them and stop the DDs being
> taken. They will need copies of the death certificate.
They will only freeze sole accounts in the name of the deceased. And
frozen means different things to different banks. Some freeze all
transactions whilst others freeze all outgoings and still accept
incoming funds. This can be very confusing when money rearranges itself
between accounts between valuation for probate and grant of probate.
Joint accounts remain active in the UK and they normally delete the
deceased name and the other individual(s) continue to have full access
to the bank account and its balance.
> Utilities etc will still need paying but you can point them to a
> different account.
It won't if the son was a joint account holder. The balance effectively
becomes his from the moment that she dies and the account remains active
so long as at least one joint account holder is still alive. Whether or
not that was the intention of the deceased it is the effect in practice.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/wills-and-probate/content/103479
Principle of survivorship (default) unless some other agreement is in force.
The opposite applies in Belgium where if you have a joint husband and
wife bank account you have to buy spouse dies insurance since under
Napoleonic law the joint account is frozen on the death of the first
joint holder and all bills then go unpaid until probate is granted.
> It is highly unlikely that the bank will do anything with the joint
> account as on death they automatically pass to the other holder.
Exactly.
> Whether your son has a right to the money in the account is a difficult
> one, and you probably need good legal advice, and it may depend on what
> the will says. The best that you might be able to do is to get the bank
> to freeze the account until it is sorted out. The problem was making
> your son a joint account holder in the first place as it implies that
> the money was jointly his, along with your mother.
Continuing to pay the bills out of that account may well be the least
worst option since the alternative is that you end up with various debt
collectors chasing you because DDs have failed and final warnings are
going to an email account that you don't know the password for.
I doubt if you can get the bank to freeze the account under these
circumstances but it might be worth asking.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
> On 21/06/2022 22:54, TTman wrote:
>> In October last year my mother passed away. My wayward son was a joint
>> account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the executor
>> of my mother's will and have been granted probate. However, the joint
>> account is now in the name of my son( since January this year) and he
>> has continued to allow direct debits in my mum's name to be taken.
>> Gas, electric,broadband etc. I have retrospectively asked the bank to
>> rectify the situation by way of renaming the account' estate of my
>> mother'. I have yet to hear from them.Yes, I made a mistake thinking I
>> could trust my son....Either way, this is going to be a long slog, but
>> is allowing DDs to continue to be taken a civil or criminal matter? I
>> need to be going down the right path now...
>>
>
> You should inform the companies involved that your mother has died, that
>> In October last year my mother passed away. My wayward son was a joint
>> account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the executor
>> of my mother's will and have been granted probate. However, the joint
>> account is now in the name of my son( since January this year) and he
>> has continued to allow direct debits in my mum's name to be taken.
>> Gas, electric,broadband etc. I have retrospectively asked the bank to
>> rectify the situation by way of renaming the account' estate of my
>> mother'. I have yet to hear from them.Yes, I made a mistake thinking I
>> could trust my son....Either way, this is going to be a long slog, but
>> is allowing DDs to continue to be taken a civil or criminal matter? I
>> need to be going down the right path now...
>>
>
> should close or freeze her accounts with them and stop the DDs being
> taken. They will need copies of the death certificate.
They will only freeze sole accounts in the name of the deceased. And
frozen means different things to different banks. Some freeze all
transactions whilst others freeze all outgoings and still accept
incoming funds. This can be very confusing when money rearranges itself
between accounts between valuation for probate and grant of probate.
Joint accounts remain active in the UK and they normally delete the
deceased name and the other individual(s) continue to have full access
to the bank account and its balance.
> Utilities etc will still need paying but you can point them to a
> different account.
It won't if the son was a joint account holder. The balance effectively
becomes his from the moment that she dies and the account remains active
so long as at least one joint account holder is still alive. Whether or
not that was the intention of the deceased it is the effect in practice.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/wills-and-probate/content/103479
Principle of survivorship (default) unless some other agreement is in force.
The opposite applies in Belgium where if you have a joint husband and
wife bank account you have to buy spouse dies insurance since under
Napoleonic law the joint account is frozen on the death of the first
joint holder and all bills then go unpaid until probate is granted.
> It is highly unlikely that the bank will do anything with the joint
> account as on death they automatically pass to the other holder.
Exactly.
> Whether your son has a right to the money in the account is a difficult
> one, and you probably need good legal advice, and it may depend on what
> the will says. The best that you might be able to do is to get the bank
> to freeze the account until it is sorted out. The problem was making
> your son a joint account holder in the first place as it implies that
> the money was jointly his, along with your mother.
Continuing to pay the bills out of that account may well be the least
worst option since the alternative is that you end up with various debt
collectors chasing you because DDs have failed and final warnings are
going to an email account that you don't know the password for.
I doubt if you can get the bank to freeze the account under these
circumstances but it might be worth asking.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
TTman
Jun 22, 2022, 10:29:52 AM6/22/22
to
On 22/06/2022 14:10, Anthony R. Gold wrote:
> bank account that is now owned solely by your wayward son.
> son, and also only if the balance in question is very substantial (mid five
> figures or more), then you might consider seeking paid legal advice on
> behalf of your late mother's estate.
>
It is... close to 40K. My mother left him her share of the house (50%)
and the residual estate.
> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 22:54:06 +0100, TTman <kraken...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In October last year my mother passed away. My wayward son was a joint
>> account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the executor
>> of my mother's will and have been granted probate. However, the joint
>> account is now in the name of my son( since January this year) and he
>> has continued to allow direct debits in my mum's name to be taken. Gas,
>> electric,broadband etc.
>
> You have no standing with the bank to request anything in connection with a
>
>> In October last year my mother passed away. My wayward son was a joint
>> account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the executor
>> of my mother's will and have been granted probate. However, the joint
>> account is now in the name of my son( since January this year) and he
>> has continued to allow direct debits in my mum's name to be taken. Gas,
>> electric,broadband etc.
>
> bank account that is now owned solely by your wayward son.
>
>> I have retrospectively asked the bank to rectify
>> the situation by way of renaming the account' estate of my mother'. I
>> have yet to hear from them.Yes, I made a mistake thinking I could trust
>> my son....Either way, this is going to be a long slog, but is allowing
>> DDs to continue to be taken a civil or criminal matter? I need to be
>> going down the right path now...
>
> If you can prove that your mother never intended to make any gift to your
>> I have retrospectively asked the bank to rectify
>> the situation by way of renaming the account' estate of my mother'. I
>> have yet to hear from them.Yes, I made a mistake thinking I could trust
>> my son....Either way, this is going to be a long slog, but is allowing
>> DDs to continue to be taken a civil or criminal matter? I need to be
>> going down the right path now...
>
> son, and also only if the balance in question is very substantial (mid five
> figures or more), then you might consider seeking paid legal advice on
> behalf of your late mother's estate.
>
It is... close to 40K. My mother left him her share of the house (50%)
and the residual estate.
Andy Burns
Jun 22, 2022, 10:36:05 AM6/22/22
to
TTman wrote:
> My mother left him her share of the house (50%) and the residual estate.
Who was the house jointly owned with? As tenants in common or as joint tenants?
> My mother left him her share of the house (50%) and the residual estate.
Roland Perry
Jun 22, 2022, 10:37:32 AM6/22/22
to
In message <t8ui8t$u29$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:01:32 on Wed, 22 Jun
2022, Jeff <je...@ukra.com> remarked:
whatever bequest he eventually gets.
--
Roland Perry
2022, Jeff <je...@ukra.com> remarked:
>On 21/06/2022 22:54, TTman wrote:
>> In October last year my mother passed away. My wayward son was a
>>joint account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the
>>executor of my mother's will and have been granted probate. However,
>>the joint account is now in the name of my son( since January this
>>year) and he has continued to allow direct debits in my mum's name to
>>be taken. Gas, electric,broadband etc. I have retrospectively asked
>>the bank to rectify the situation by way of renaming the account'
>>estate of my mother'. I have yet to hear from them.Yes, I made a
>>mistake thinking I could trust my son....Either way, this is going to
>>be a long slog, but is allowing DDs to continue to be taken a civil
>>or criminal matter? I need to be going down the right path now...
>>
>
>>joint account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the
>>executor of my mother's will and have been granted probate. However,
>>the joint account is now in the name of my son( since January this
>>year) and he has continued to allow direct debits in my mum's name to
>>be taken. Gas, electric,broadband etc. I have retrospectively asked
>>the bank to rectify the situation by way of renaming the account'
>>estate of my mother'. I have yet to hear from them.Yes, I made a
>>mistake thinking I could trust my son....Either way, this is going to
>>be a long slog, but is allowing DDs to continue to be taken a civil
>>or criminal matter? I need to be going down the right path now...
>>
>
>You should inform the companies involved that your mother has died,
>that should close or freeze her accounts with them and stop the DDs
>being taken. They will need copies of the death certificate.
>that should close or freeze her accounts with them and stop the DDs
>being taken. They will need copies of the death certificate.
>Utilities etc will still need paying but you can point them to a
>different account.
>
>different account.
>
>It is highly unlikely that the bank will do anything with the joint
>account as on death they automatically pass to the other holder.
>
>account as on death they automatically pass to the other holder.
>
>Whether your son has a right to the money in the account is a difficult
>one, and you probably need good legal advice, and it may depend on what
>the will says. The best that you might be able to do is to get the bank
>to freeze the account until it is sorted out. The problem was making
>your son a joint account holder in the first place as it implies that
>the money was jointly his, along with your mother.
I wonder if the monies spent in this way are in a sense an advance on
>one, and you probably need good legal advice, and it may depend on what
>the will says. The best that you might be able to do is to get the bank
>to freeze the account until it is sorted out. The problem was making
>your son a joint account holder in the first place as it implies that
>the money was jointly his, along with your mother.
whatever bequest he eventually gets.
--
Roland Perry
Michael Chare
Jun 22, 2022, 10:37:55 AM6/22/22
to
On 21/06/2022 22:54, TTman wrote:
> In October last year my mother passed away. My wayward son was a joint
> account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the executor
> of my mother's will and have been granted probate. However, the joint
> account is now in the name of my son( since January this year) and he
> has continued to allow direct debits in my mum's name to be taken. Gas,
> electric,broadband etc. I have retrospectively asked the bank to rectify
> the situation by way of renaming the account' estate of my mother'. I
> have yet to hear from them.Yes, I made a mistake thinking I could trust
> my son....Either way, this is going to be a long slog, but is allowing
> DDs to continue to be taken a civil or criminal matter? I need to be
> going down the right path now...
>
You could complain to the people making the DDs and ask them to return
> account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the executor
> of my mother's will and have been granted probate. However, the joint
> account is now in the name of my son( since January this year) and he
> has continued to allow direct debits in my mum's name to be taken. Gas,
> electric,broadband etc. I have retrospectively asked the bank to rectify
> the situation by way of renaming the account' estate of my mother'. I
> have yet to hear from them.Yes, I made a mistake thinking I could trust
> my son....Either way, this is going to be a long slog, but is allowing
> DDs to continue to be taken a civil or criminal matter? I need to be
> going down the right path now...
>
any money taken as appropriate. Was you son really a joint account
holder, he could just have been a signatory? I was a signatory for my
mothers account. When I mentioned to the bank that my mother had died
they immediately froze the a/c.
Norman Wells
Jun 22, 2022, 10:38:02 AM6/22/22
to
On 21/06/2022 22:54, TTman wrote:
> In October last year my mother passed away. My wayward son was a joint
> account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the executor
> of my mother's will and have been granted probate. However, the joint
> account is now in the name of my son( since January this year) and he
> has continued to allow direct debits in my mum's name to be taken. Gas,
> electric,broadband etc. I have retrospectively asked the bank to rectify
> the situation by way of renaming the account' estate of my mother'. I
> have yet to hear from them.Yes, I made a mistake thinking I could trust
> my son....Either way, this is going to be a long slog, but is allowing
> DDs to continue to be taken a civil or criminal matter? I need to be
> going down the right path now...
Joint accounts pass automatically to the survivor. They do not form
> account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the executor
> of my mother's will and have been granted probate. However, the joint
> account is now in the name of my son( since January this year) and he
> has continued to allow direct debits in my mum's name to be taken. Gas,
> electric,broadband etc. I have retrospectively asked the bank to rectify
> the situation by way of renaming the account' estate of my mother'. I
> have yet to hear from them.Yes, I made a mistake thinking I could trust
> my son....Either way, this is going to be a long slog, but is allowing
> DDs to continue to be taken a civil or criminal matter? I need to be
> going down the right path now...
part of the deceased's estate. On that basis, therefore, it would seem
that your son is actually the legitimate owner of the account and its
assets.
Roger Hayter
Jun 22, 2022, 12:09:31 PM6/22/22
to
set up in the last seven years and the estate is big enough.
--
Roger Hayter
GB
Jun 22, 2022, 1:22:37 PM6/22/22
to
On 22/06/2022 15:29, TTman wrote:
> It is... close to 40K. My mother left him her share of the house (50%)
> and the residual estate.
So, let me see if I understand this matter.
> It is... close to 40K. My mother left him her share of the house (50%)
> and the residual estate.
There are two possibilities here:
a) Your son was entitled to the money as joint account holder.
b) He wasn't entitled as joint account holder, but he will shortly
become entitled as residuary beneficiary.
Either way, I can't see that there's a problem.
If there's been a failing at all, it's been on your part as executor,
for failing to get the account frozen.
You started this thread asking "is allowing DDs to continue to be taken
a civil or criminal matter?".
Let me reassure you that I don't think your negligence is criminal, but
it is possible that your son could start civil proceedings.
Perhaps, you should have a heart to heart chat, and ask his forgiveness?
Roland Perry
Jun 22, 2022, 2:48:31 PM6/22/22
to
In message <jhgt5l...@mid.individual.net>, at 16:09:25 on Wed, 22
Jun 2022, Roger Hayter <ro...@hayter.org> remarked:
That's an interesting light to shine on the concept of "gifts", which
IHT returns are somewhat obsessed about.
If someone about to die, with half a million (most of their liquid
assets) in a bank account, agrees someone else can be a joint account
holder, does that magically teleport all those assets beyond the reach
of IHT (and probate)?
If so, it appears to me to be a massive loophole.
--
Roland Perry
Jun 2022, Roger Hayter <ro...@hayter.org> remarked:
IHT returns are somewhat obsessed about.
If someone about to die, with half a million (most of their liquid
assets) in a bank account, agrees someone else can be a joint account
holder, does that magically teleport all those assets beyond the reach
of IHT (and probate)?
If so, it appears to me to be a massive loophole.
--
Roland Perry
TTman
Jun 22, 2022, 3:00:43 PM6/22/22
to
David McNeish
Jun 22, 2022, 3:12:03 PM6/22/22
to
Colin Bignell
Jun 22, 2022, 3:36:14 PM6/22/22
to
On 22/06/2022 14:39, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 22/06/2022 09:01, Jeff wrote:
>> On 21/06/2022 22:54, TTman wrote:
>>> In October last year my mother passed away. My wayward son was a
>>> joint account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the
>>> executor of my mother's will and have been granted probate. However,
>>> the joint account is now in the name of my son( since January this
>>> year) and he has continued to allow direct debits in my mum's name to
>>> be taken. Gas, electric,broadband etc. I have retrospectively asked
>>> the bank to rectify the situation by way of renaming the account'
>>> estate of my mother'. I have yet to hear from them.Yes, I made a
>>> mistake thinking I could trust my son....Either way, this is going to
>>> be a long slog, but is allowing DDs to continue to be taken a civil
>>> or criminal matter? I need to be going down the right path now...
>>>
>>
>> You should inform the companies involved that your mother has died,
>> that should close or freeze her accounts with them and stop the DDs
>> being taken. They will need copies of the death certificate.
>
> They will only freeze sole accounts in the name of the deceased. And
> frozen means different things to different banks. Some freeze all
> transactions whilst others freeze all outgoings and still accept
> incoming funds. This can be very confusing when money rearranges itself
> between accounts between valuation for probate and grant of probate...
> On 22/06/2022 09:01, Jeff wrote:
>> On 21/06/2022 22:54, TTman wrote:
>>> In October last year my mother passed away. My wayward son was a
>>> joint account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the
>>> executor of my mother's will and have been granted probate. However,
>>> the joint account is now in the name of my son( since January this
>>> year) and he has continued to allow direct debits in my mum's name to
>>> be taken. Gas, electric,broadband etc. I have retrospectively asked
>>> the bank to rectify the situation by way of renaming the account'
>>> estate of my mother'. I have yet to hear from them.Yes, I made a
>>> mistake thinking I could trust my son....Either way, this is going to
>>> be a long slog, but is allowing DDs to continue to be taken a civil
>>> or criminal matter? I need to be going down the right path now...
>>>
>>
>> You should inform the companies involved that your mother has died,
>> that should close or freeze her accounts with them and stop the DDs
>> being taken. They will need copies of the death certificate.
>
> They will only freeze sole accounts in the name of the deceased. And
> frozen means different things to different banks. Some freeze all
> transactions whilst others freeze all outgoings and still accept
> incoming funds. This can be very confusing when money rearranges itself
HSBC will also pay out funeral costs from the frozen account.
--
Colin Bignell
notya...@gmail.com
Jun 22, 2022, 4:00:30 PM6/22/22
to
On Tuesday, 21 June 2022 at 22:54:20 UTC+1, TTman wrote:
1. On the death of one joint account holder the account automatically reverts to the survivor - the asset is NOT part of the estate.
2. Allowing DD's to be taken for maintaining the estate (e.g. your mother's house) is quite normal.
3. There might be a tort of conversion, but given 1. most unlikely.
4. For a criminal case dishonest intent needs to be proved. Allowing DD's to continue would be most unlikely to constitute this unless he deliberately ran the account into debt.
notya...@gmail.com
Jun 22, 2022, 4:02:09 PM6/22/22
to
>
>
> --
> Colin Bignell
GB
Jun 22, 2022, 6:48:38 PM6/22/22
to
On 22/06/2022 19:41, Roland Perry wrote:
> If someone about to die, with half a million (most of their liquid
> assets) in a bank account, agrees someone else can be a joint account
> holder, does that magically teleport all those assets beyond the reach
> of IHT (and probate)?
No. The ownership of the joint account automatically transfers on death,
> If someone about to die, with half a million (most of their liquid
> assets) in a bank account, agrees someone else can be a joint account
> holder, does that magically teleport all those assets beyond the reach
> of IHT (and probate)?
so it's not part of the estate. It still counts as a transfer for IHT,
though.
There are two transfers. Half when the joint holder is appointed, and
half on death.
>
> If so, it appears to me to be a massive loophole.
GB
Jun 22, 2022, 6:49:09 PM6/22/22
to
On 22/06/2022 20:00, TTman wrote:
> On 22/06/2022 15:35, Andy Burns wrote:
>> TTman wrote:
>>
>>> My mother left him her share of the house (50%) and the residual estate.
>>
>> Who was the house jointly owned with? As tenants in common or as
>> joint tenants?
>>
>>
> Tennants in common, jointly with me.
>
>
Does that mean that DDs are being paid out of your son's money on a
> On 22/06/2022 15:35, Andy Burns wrote:
>> TTman wrote:
>>
>>> My mother left him her share of the house (50%) and the residual estate.
>>
>> Who was the house jointly owned with? As tenants in common or as
>> joint tenants?
>>
>>
> Tennants in common, jointly with me.
>
>
house that you are occupying?
RJH
Jun 23, 2022, 5:51:26 AM6/23/22
to
On 21 Jun 2022 at 22:54:06 BST, TTman wrote:
> In October last year my mother passed away. My wayward son was a joint
> account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the executor
> of my mother's will and have been granted probate.
Could you clarify why you didn't cancel the DDs? In my recent experience of
> In October last year my mother passed away. My wayward son was a joint
> account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the executor
> of my mother's will and have been granted probate.
bereavements it was one of the first things I did - first, indirectly with the
bank, and second, by informing the utility companies.
> However, the joint
> account is now in the name of my son( since January this year) and he
> has continued to allow direct debits in my mum's name to be taken. Gas,
> electric,broadband etc. I have retrospectively asked the bank to rectify
> the situation by way of renaming the account' estate of my mother'. I
> have yet to hear from them.Yes, I made a mistake thinking I could trust
> my son....Either way, this is going to be a long slog, but is allowing
> DDs to continue to be taken a civil or criminal matter? I need to be
> going down the right path now...
the DDs and let him know.
--
Cheers, Rob
TTman
Jun 23, 2022, 6:37:29 AM6/23/22
to
TTman
Jun 23, 2022, 6:40:08 AM6/23/22
to
On 23/06/2022 10:51, RJH wrote:
> On 21 Jun 2022 at 22:54:06 BST, TTman wrote:
>
>> In October last year my mother passed away. My wayward son was a joint
>> account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the executor
>> of my mother's will and have been granted probate.
>
> Could you clarify why you didn't cancel the DDs? In my recent experience of
> bereavements it was one of the first things I did - first, indirectly with the
> bank, and second, by informing the utility companies.
Because I trusted him to do it, as my son. Mistake. Maybe I can,by
> On 21 Jun 2022 at 22:54:06 BST, TTman wrote:
>
>> In October last year my mother passed away. My wayward son was a joint
>> account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the executor
>> of my mother's will and have been granted probate.
>
> Could you clarify why you didn't cancel the DDs? In my recent experience of
> bereavements it was one of the first things I did - first, indirectly with the
> bank, and second, by informing the utility companies.
contacting the various companies, even at this late stage. I can try...
>
>> However, the joint
>> account is now in the name of my son( since January this year) and he
>> has continued to allow direct debits in my mum's name to be taken. Gas,
>> electric,broadband etc. I have retrospectively asked the bank to rectify
>> the situation by way of renaming the account' estate of my mother'. I
>> have yet to hear from them.Yes, I made a mistake thinking I could trust
>> my son....Either way, this is going to be a long slog, but is allowing
>> DDs to continue to be taken a civil or criminal matter? I need to be
>> going down the right path now...
>
> My guess is that he's letting it roll because he can - you just need to cancel
> the DDs and let him know.
Martin Brown
Jun 23, 2022, 7:28:55 AM6/23/22
to
On 23/06/2022 11:39, TTman wrote:
> On 23/06/2022 10:51, RJH wrote:
>> On 21 Jun 2022 at 22:54:06 BST, TTman wrote:
>>
>>> In October last year my mother passed away. My wayward son was a joint
>>> account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the executor
>>> of my mother's will and have been granted probate.
>>
>> Could you clarify why you didn't cancel the DDs? In my recent
>> experience of
>> bereavements it was one of the first things I did - first, indirectly
>> with the
>> bank, and second, by informing the utility companies.
A sole account then notifying the bank of the death of the owner (on
> On 23/06/2022 10:51, RJH wrote:
>> On 21 Jun 2022 at 22:54:06 BST, TTman wrote:
>>
>>> In October last year my mother passed away. My wayward son was a joint
>>> account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the executor
>>> of my mother's will and have been granted probate.
>>
>> Could you clarify why you didn't cancel the DDs? In my recent
>> experience of
>> bereavements it was one of the first things I did - first, indirectly
>> with the
>> bank, and second, by informing the utility companies.
presentation of the death certificate) will stop all DDs automatically
and freeze the account. Exceptions are that presentation of the death
certificate may be sufficient evidence for the bank to close the account
and transfer the funds to an account of the executors choosing if the
balance in it is below some random bank dependent threshold.
That threshold varies enormously from total estate <£5k (as written in
the applicable law) to amount with individual bank <£5k to £50k in
practice. Median value about £10k for probate less transfer of funds.
>
> Because I trusted him to do it, as my son. Mistake. Maybe I can,by
> contacting the various companies, even at this late stage. I can try...
Survivorship rules on joint accounts in the UK means that the money in
> Because I trusted him to do it, as my son. Mistake. Maybe I can,by
> contacting the various companies, even at this late stage. I can try...
it is now effectively his to do with as he wishes.
>>> However, the joint
>>> account is now in the name of my son( since January this year) and he
>>> has continued to allow direct debits in my mum's name to be taken. Gas,
>>> electric,broadband etc. I have retrospectively asked the bank to rectify
>>> the situation by way of renaming the account' estate of my mother'. I
>>> have yet to hear from them.Yes, I made a mistake thinking I could trust
>>> my son....Either way, this is going to be a long slog, but is allowing
>>> DDs to continue to be taken a civil or criminal matter? I need to be
>>> going down the right path now...
>>
>> My guess is that he's letting it roll because he can - you just need
>> to cancel
>> the DDs and let him know.
> Thx, good point.
Bad idea making someone who is untrustworthy a joint account holder with
someone who is about to die.
With an LPoA the authority to act dies with the donor (and it is still a
*very* bad idea to donate such authority to someone you don't trust).
With a joint bank account the opposite is true - the money in it
automatically belongs to the last person standing if one account holder
dies.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Norman Wells
Jun 23, 2022, 8:18:36 AM6/23/22
to
On 23/06/2022 10:51, RJH wrote:
> On 21 Jun 2022 at 22:54:06 BST, TTman wrote:
>
>> In October last year my mother passed away. My wayward son was a joint
>> account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the executor
>> of my mother's will and have been granted probate.
>
> Could you clarify why you didn't cancel the DDs?
The simple answer is that it's not his account to control. It passes
>
>> In October last year my mother passed away. My wayward son was a joint
>> account holder for the sole purposes of convenience. I am the executor
>> of my mother's will and have been granted probate.
>
> Could you clarify why you didn't cancel the DDs?
automatically to the surviving joint owner, which is not him. So, he
has no authority to cancel DDs or do anything else with it.
Martin Brown
Jun 23, 2022, 10:46:48 AM6/23/22
to
invoice since it is written into the banking code. You can always be
unlucky and find a jobsworth though. I have had branches close on me
without notice whilst acting as an executor. Quite literally open one
month and shuttered up and gone the next with the make an appointment to
see the manager phone line booking droid telling me "branch does not
exist". They obviously didn't tell the branch manager in advance either
since I had seen them only a couple of months prior to its sudden demise.
Thank heavens for the Manchester Evening News (who carried the story)
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
David McNeish
Jun 23, 2022, 10:54:33 AM6/23/22
to
method of payment, which might have been what the PP meant.
Roger Hayter
Jun 23, 2022, 10:56:00 AM6/23/22
to
cancel the payment from the payee end. OTOH, if the DDs are for house
utilities and the son has put these accounts in his own name *and* he is going
to inherit the money in the account then that seems quite above board to
continue them.
--
Roger Hayter
Harry Bloomfield Esq
Jun 23, 2022, 1:52:00 PM6/23/22
to
Norman Wells wrote :
in the mother's sole name - simply by producing death certs? It would
force the son to then open accounts - not that the OP would gain any
better control.
> So, he has no authority to cancel DDs or do anything else with it.
Could he not cancel with the utilities, assuming that the accounts were
in the mother's sole name - simply by producing death certs? It would
force the son to then open accounts - not that the OP would gain any
better control.
Martin Brown
Jun 24, 2022, 4:58:03 AM6/24/22
to
Main effect would be to annoy and inconvenience his son. I know plenty
of newly bereaved widows who let DDs for utility bills on their joint
account run on for years without ever bothering to inform them.
(in fact it came up again in conversation only last week)
OP had better hope that there are no residual beneficiaries inclined to
sue him. AFAICT the son has done nothing wrong here but the OP may have.
Moral of story is you should fully understand what the consequences of
making a joint ownership bank account are when one of the names dies.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Roger Hayter
Jun 24, 2022, 5:29:15 AM6/24/22
to
On 24 Jun 2022 at 09:57:55 BST, "Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk>
wrote:
I think we have been told that the son is the residual beneficiary and
half-owner of the relevant houas, of which he is the only occupant. That would
seem to deal with most of the concerns you raise.
--
Roger Hayter
wrote:
half-owner of the relevant houas, of which he is the only occupant. That would
seem to deal with most of the concerns you raise.
--
Roger Hayter
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