local council plumbing in a large noise generator

Mike Scott

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Jun 22, 2022, 6:50:24 PM6/22/22

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Our wonderful council is nearing completion of a mains water pump for
the nearby block of flats.

It includes a pump and standby generator housed in repurposed
council-owned garages. A quarter of a million quids-worth all in, I'm
told. All with a few yards of residential housing.

They took 2 months to reply to a FoIA request for information; their
reply is misleading because it mentions only noise from the generator,
not the pump. Altogether a clueless response.

They claim they don't need planning permission, which sounds very odd.

The noise level - I heard the genny today, very helpful engineer working
on it - and it's too noisy for daytime, never mind night-time.

There's 270 litres of diesel stored there, with, it seems, neither
spillage nor fire precautions.

The garage doors have been replaced with light louvred metal doors,
neither fire- nor vandal- proof. And most certainly not sound-proofed.

I've contacted our local MP, but what is the authority that checks on
councils in circumstances like this? Apparently, their own H&S people
won't investigate them.

--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

Roland Perry

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Jun 23, 2022, 8:19:33 AM6/23/22

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In message <t8vjki$am0$1...@dont-email.me>, at 18:30:57 on Wed, 22 Jun
2022, Mike Scott <usen...@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> remarked:

>Our wonderful council

Parish, District or County? (Or maybe Unitary/City)

Roland Perry

Norman Wells

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Jun 23, 2022, 8:20:05 AM6/23/22

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'Noise emitted from premises so as to be prejudicial to health or a
nuisance' is a statutory nuisance according to Section 79(1)(g) of the
Environmental Protection Act 1990,

"and it shall be the duty of every local authority to cause its area to
be inspected from time to time to detect any statutory nuisances which
ought to be dealt with under section 80 below and, where a complaint of
a statutory nuisance is made to it by a person living within its area,
to take such steps as are reasonably practicable to investigate the
complaint".

So, complain to the local authority, and object strongly if they appear
to be marking their own homework in their own favour.

If you can, gather evidence for yourself of the noise levels, record
them and the noise itself, keep a diary in which you record disturbance
to sleep etc, and suggest to the council what they might do to alleviate
the problem.

Theo

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Jun 23, 2022, 8:22:10 AM6/23/22

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Mike Scott <usen...@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:
> Our wonderful council is nearing completion of a mains water pump for
> the nearby block of flats.
>
> It includes a pump and standby generator housed in repurposed
> council-owned garages. A quarter of a million quids-worth all in, I'm
> told. All with a few yards of residential housing.

Playing devil's advocate here:

> They took 2 months to reply to a FoIA request for information; their
> reply is misleading because it mentions only noise from the generator,
> not the pump. Altogether a clueless response.
>
> They claim they don't need planning permission, which sounds very odd.

Have you asked them to explain the grounds by which they claim that? Some
statutory functions (eg highway maintenance) don't need planning permission,
because they are outside the planning process. I'm not sure whether this
would be similar.

> The noise level - I heard the genny today, very helpful engineer working
> on it - and it's too noisy for daytime, never mind night-time.

The generator is presumably to run only when there's a power cut, to ensure
the flats have fresh water (a very big problem for people living there if
that stops running). In an emergency situation like that, I'm not sure what
the limits on noise are. You shouldn't be hearing the generator regularly
in the normal course of events (perhaps only for a test cycle - you could
ask them what the plan is for that).

Do you know if the pump will be running all the time (powered from the
grid), or only when the generator is in operation? Do you know what the
noise from the pump will be like?

> There's 270 litres of diesel stored there, with, it seems, neither
> spillage nor fire precautions.

What spillage or fire precautions would you expect? Many people have
domestic heating oil tanks containing 1000+ litres of kerosene or diesel -
as long as the tank itself is double bunded that is sufficient. It is quite
hard to ignite that fuel if it's just lying around, hence keeping them well
ventilated is usually sufficient fire precaution.

> The garage doors have been replaced with light louvred metal doors,
> neither fire- nor vandal- proof. And most certainly not sound-proofed.

Presumably that's for ventilation in case there are any diesel vapours?
(and possibly the air intake for the generator, if that isn't on a ducted
flue)

> I've contacted our local MP, but what is the authority that checks on
> councils in circumstances like this? Apparently, their own H&S people
> won't investigate them.

I'm not sure, but maybe there is a different 'council' with some powers.
For example, if this is a district council, maybe the county does? Although
I think planning and environmental health are both district matters.

Speaking to your district councillors would likely be the most productive,
since they are your representatives on the council concerned.

Theo

notya...@gmail.com

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Jun 23, 2022, 8:23:28 AM6/23/22

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The pump will be fairly quiet and the generator only for emergencies when mains power fails (so you will be sat in the dark).

If they are inside existing garages, then they won't need PP.

Not sure of the rules on diesel storage, but a forty foot artic' will usually have a tank of ~600l. My last car had a 100l tank of petrol and could be legally driven around and parked in my garage under our flats.

Norman Wells

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Jun 23, 2022, 1:54:34 PM6/23/22

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On 23/06/2022 10:52, notya...@gmail.com wrote:

> The pump will be fairly quiet and the generator only for emergencies when mains power fails (so you will be sat in the dark).
>
> If they are inside existing garages, then they won't need PP.

Why not? It's a change of use surely.

Colin Bignell

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Jun 23, 2022, 6:14:31 PM6/23/22

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Change of use was made much simpler last year, with quite a few changes
being deemed to be permitted and no permission required for changes
within the new Class E.

--
Colin Bignell

Theo

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Jun 24, 2022, 4:02:22 AM6/24/22

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I suppose it would change from B8 (storage or distribution) to B2 (general
industrial), and not E(g)(iii) (industrial processes which can be carried
out in a residential area without detriment to its amenity)? Would that
need change of use?

Theo

David McNeish

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Jun 24, 2022, 4:11:15 AM6/24/22

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I presume by "council-owned garages" the OP means garages pertaining to
the flats, i.e. residential use, not a commercial storage facility. And the pump
is just a utility for the block of flats, so not sure there's any change of use
involved.

Colin Bignell

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Jun 24, 2022, 5:52:25 AM6/24/22

to

On 22/06/2022 18:30, Mike Scott wrote:

> Our wonderful council is nearing completion of a mains water pump for
> the nearby block of flats.
>
> It includes a pump and standby generator housed in repurposed
> council-owned garages. A quarter of a million quids-worth all in, I'm
> told. All with a few yards of residential housing.
>
> They took 2 months to reply to a FoIA request for information; their
> reply is misleading because it mentions only noise from the generator,
> not the pump. Altogether a clueless response.
>
> They claim they don't need planning permission, which sounds very odd.
>
> The noise level - I heard the genny today, very helpful engineer working
> on it - and it's too noisy for daytime, never mind night-time.
>
> There's 270 litres of diesel stored there, with, it seems, neither
> spillage nor fire precautions.

If it is stored inside a building that would contain any leak, there is
no need for additional spillage precautions. While diesel will burn, it
is very difficult to ignite, so, while it could feed an existing fire,
it is not a major fire hazard in itself.

> The garage doors have been replaced with light louvred metal doors,
> neither fire- nor vandal- proof. And most certainly not sound-proofed.
>
> I've contacted our local MP, but what is the authority that checks on
> councils in circumstances like this? Apparently, their own H&S people
> won't investigate them.
>
>

--

Colin Bignell

Mike Scott

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Jul 12, 2022, 8:18:18 AM7/12/22

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On 24/06/2022 09:53, Colin Bignell wrote:
> On 22/06/2022 18:30, Mike Scott wrote:
>> Our wonderful council is nearing completion of a mains water pump for
>> the nearby block of flats.
>>
>> It includes a pump and standby generator housed in repurposed
>> council-owned garages. A quarter of a million quids-worth all in, I'm
>> told. All with a few yards of residential housing.
>>
>> They took 2 months to reply to a FoIA request for information; their
>> reply is misleading because it mentions only noise from the generator,
>> not the pump. Altogether a clueless response.
>>
>> They claim they don't need planning permission, which sounds very odd.
>>
>> The noise level - I heard the genny today, very helpful engineer
>> working on it - and it's too noisy for daytime, never mind night-time.
>>
>> There's 270 litres of diesel stored there, with, it seems, neither
>> spillage nor fire precautions.
>
> If it is stored inside a building that would contain any leak, there is
> no need for additional spillage precautions. While diesel will burn, it
> is very difficult to ignite, so, while it could feed an existing fire,
> it is not a major fire hazard in itself.

The entire front is a flimsy metal panel with open louvres. No
containment whatsoever. We shall see.

>
>> The garage doors have been replaced with light louvred metal doors,
>> neither fire- nor vandal- proof. And most certainly not sound-proofed.
>>
>> I've contacted our local MP, but what is the authority that checks on
>> councils in circumstances like this? Apparently, their own H&S people
>> won't investigate them.
>>

Our local MP seems not to want to know. After emailing our 3 local
councillors, apparently one of them was overseeing things - not that
anyone had bothered to let me know that. On leave, of course.

To cap it all, I put in a formal complaint about the way things seem to
have been mis-handled. It referenced in particular communications
failures by the dept boss. And who should respond to the complaint -
turning it down, of course - but the very same boss! Is it normal for
someone to investigate a formal complaint involving himself? Certainly
seems a bit odd to me.