probate search failure

[Mike Scott]

Quick query because I don't understand what might be going on.

I've been searching through the probate registry for someone who died
early last year. Double-barrelled surname, and there's always the chance
his used name wasn't his legal first, so I've tried variations on them
But there's not a trace of an entry for him.

Would this just mean probate hasn't been granted (and what might delay
it so long?), even though it's nearly 18 months ago he died? Or might
there be some other hiccup?

TIA.


--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

[notya...@gmail.com]

Was his estate large enough to merit probate?

Were there assets held in joint names (e.g. with a spouse)?

[Brian]

Is the estate enough to require probate?

If the estate is modest, it isn’t necessary.

[Roland Perry]

In message <t9pium$2kmo8$1...@dont-email.me>, at 14:58:46 on Sat, 2 Jul
2022, Mike Scott <usen...@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> remarked:

>Quick query because I don't understand what might be going on.
>
>I've been searching through the probate registry for someone who died
>early last year. Double-barrelled surname, and there's always the
>chance his used name wasn't his legal first, so I've tried variations
>on them But there's not a trace of an entry for him.
>
>Would this just mean probate hasn't been granted (and what might delay
>it so long?),

In a word, Covid. It has made any number of administrative processes
almost grind to a halt (not that they were that swift to begin with).

>even though it's nearly 18 months ago he died? Or might there be some
>other hiccup?

--
Roland Perry

[David McNeish]

On Saturday, 2 July 2022 at 15:08:00 UTC+1, Mike Scott wrote:

Take your pick from

* deceased not domiciled in England or Wales
* estate too small to require probate
* indecision about who is entitled to / wants to be executor(s)
* delay in figuring out what is comprised in the estate
* delay in valuing the estate
* delay in coming up with cash to pay any Inheritance Tax due
* delays at the probate office

[Roland Perry]

In message <429986ec-88d3-4de0...@googlegroups.com>, at
01:52:57 on Sun, 3 Jul 2022, David McNeish <davi...@gmail.com>
remarked:

>On Saturday, 2 July 2022 at 15:08:00 UTC+1, Mike Scott wrote:
>> Quick query because I don't understand what might be going on.
>>
>> I've been searching through the probate registry for someone who died
>> early last year. Double-barrelled surname, and there's always the chance
>> his used name wasn't his legal first, so I've tried variations on them
>> But there's not a trace of an entry for him.
>>
>> Would this just mean probate hasn't been granted (and what might delay
>> it so long?), even though it's nearly 18 months ago he died? Or might
>> there be some other hiccup?
>
>Take your pick from
>

>* indecision about who is entitled to / wants to be executor(s)
>* delay in figuring out what is comprised in the estate
>* delay in valuing the estate

All of which are susceptible to grinding almost to a halt during various
lockdowns and their ripple effect. A friend has been doing probate, and
replies from investment companies about the value of things like unit
trusts were taking over six months to be dealt with.

>* delays at the probate office

Covid again, I expect.
--
Roland Perry

[Mike Scott]

On 03/07/2022 06:10, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t9pium$2kmo8$1...@dont-email.me>, at 14:58:46 on Sat, 2 Jul
> 2022, Mike Scott <usen...@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> remarked:
>> Quick query because I don't understand what might be going on.
>>
>> I've been searching through the probate registry for someone who died
>> early last year. Double-barrelled surname, and there's always the
>> chance his used name wasn't his legal first, so I've tried variations
>> on them But there's not a trace of an entry for him.
>>
>> Would this just mean probate hasn't been granted (and what might delay
>> it so long?),
>
> In a word, Covid. It has made any number of administrative processes
> almost grind to a halt (not that they were that swift to begin with).

But this is just the online system - which does seem remarkably sensible
for a govt website. I've done test lookups on others without problem.

To answer the other respondents, yes the estate was definitely big
enough to require probate, and yes, some assets were probably jointly owned.

Does it just mean probate's been 18 months and still not granted?

>
>> even though it's nearly 18 months ago he died? Or might there be some
>> other hiccup?
>

Thanks all.

[Roland Perry]

In message <t9rcf8$2t55a$1...@dont-email.me>, at 07:20:21 on Sun, 3 Jul

2022, Mike Scott <usen...@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> remarked:
>>> Quick query because I don't understand what might be going on.
>>>
>>> I've been searching through the probate registry for someone who
>>>died early last year. Double-barrelled surname, and there's always
>>>the chance his used name wasn't his legal first, so I've tried
>>>variations on them But there's not a trace of an entry for him.
>>>
>>> Would this just mean probate hasn't been granted (and what might
>>>delay it so long?),

>> In a word, Covid. It has made any number of administrative processes
>>almost grind to a halt (not that they were that swift to begin with).
>
>But this is just the online system - which does seem remarkably
>sensible for a govt website. I've done test lookups on others without
>problem.

It's not the lookup that would be slow, but the processing of the
probate forms in order to have anything to look up. Hopefully things
are getting back to normal now.
--
Roland Perry

[Mike Scott]

I guess 3 of the PP's points might well apply. Thanks all for the replies.

[Martin Brown]

On 03/07/2022 07:20, Mike Scott wrote:
> On 03/07/2022 06:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t9pium$2kmo8$1...@dont-email.me>, at 14:58:46 on Sat, 2 Jul
>> 2022, Mike Scott <usen...@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> remarked:
>>> Quick query because I don't understand what might be going on.
>>>
>>> I've been searching through the probate registry for someone who died
>>> early last year. Double-barrelled surname, and there's always the
>>> chance his used name wasn't his legal first, so I've tried variations
>>> on them But there's not a trace of an entry for him.
>>>
>>> Would this just mean probate hasn't been granted (and what might
>>> delay it so long?),
>>
>> In a word, Covid. It has made any number of administrative processes
>> almost grind to a halt (not that they were that swift to begin with).

My money if on HMRC - they have form. Covid may be their new excuse.

> But this is just the online system - which does seem remarkably sensible
> for a govt website. I've done test lookups on others without problem.
>
> To answer the other respondents, yes the estate was definitely big
> enough to require probate, and yes, some assets were probably jointly
> owned.
>
> Does it just mean probate's been 18 months and still not granted?

It is quite likely that if IHT was due then HMRC are allowing the
paperwork to turn into coal in someone's inbox. IME their typical
turnaround time was about 6 months to deal with each piece of
correspondence. Phone calls take a couple of hours to get through...

I even go a dog ate my homework excuse from them namely:
"Printer wasn't working (and we didn't know)"

Admittedly it was probably an offsite bulk printer and envelope stuffer
but it was down for a few weeks without them noticing!

Six month delays obtaining valuations for probate are not uncommon in
the post Covid era too. It is very much luck of the draw with that.

>>> even though it's nearly 18 months ago he died? Or might there be some
>>> other hiccup?

Add Covid to the mix and for anything even slightly complex 18 months
sounds optimistic to me. They took over 12 months even pre Covid.
(delays almost entirely at HMRC - probate office were efficient).

Simple ones at the moment seem to go through OK with a typical
turnaround of 3-4 months provided that HMRC don't mess things up!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[The Todal]

To digress slightly, I am one of the executors of a will, and the
testator died about 3 weeks ago.

We need to appoint a firm of solicitors to deal with the probate and the
administration of the estate. Everyone I've spoken to tells me that
their experience with probate solicitors is that they are slow, fail to
answer letters and sometimes give the wrong advice.

I chose a solicitor who seemed to specialise in the relevant area but he
blotted his copybook by advising us that the joint bank account between
the deceased and his wife would be paused or frozen until probate had
been granted, meaning that the widow would not be able to pay any bills
and the standing orders would cease to work.

So we have dis-instructed him. We have made an appointment to visit
another law firm but due to holidays they can't see us for 4 weeks. I am
hoping that there is nothing urgent that needs to be done in the meantime.

Any views? Would you be tempted to use a good law firm that happens to
be in another town or city rather than local? How would you choose a
good firm and would you regard it as something that needs to be done
urgently?

[Owain Lastname]

On Thursday, 7 July 2022 at 15:33:33 UTC+1, The Todal wrote:
> To digress slightly, I am one of the executors of a will, and the
> testator died about 3 weeks ago.
> We need to appoint a firm of solicitors to deal with the probate and the
> administration of the estate.

It's often not as difficult as people imagine, and in many cases you will end up doing a lot of the grunt work of sifting through belongings and paperwork anyway, to give stuff to the solicitor.

> I am hoping that there is nothing urgent that needs to be done in the meantime.

House and car insurance policies will have lapsed, if in the name of the deceased, and must be renewed in the name of the estate or spouse. (and car SORN'd if applicable). Physically secure property (changing locks if carers have had access to keys).

Council tax discount claimed if the property is now single-occupied, as this may not be backdatable.

Presumably all utilities will carry on being paid from the joint account and the spouse inherits, so no urgency about meter readings and closing accounts, although they should really be done as close to date of death as possible in case there is any debt owing (which may help reduce IHT liability - slightly).

Notify any pension providers.

This is all provided there is no liklihood of the estate being insolvent.

Owain

[Martin Brown]

On 06/07/2022 11:13, The Todal wrote:
> On 02/07/2022 14:58, Mike Scott wrote:
>> Quick query because I don't understand what might be going on.
>>
>> I've been searching through the probate registry for someone who died
>> early last year. Double-barrelled surname, and there's always the
>> chance his used name wasn't his legal first, so I've tried variations
>> on them But there's not a trace of an entry for him.
>>
>> Would this just mean probate hasn't been granted (and what might delay
>> it so long?), even though it's nearly 18 months ago he died? Or might
>> there be some other hiccup?
>>
>> TIA.
>
> To digress slightly, I am one of the executors of a will, and the
> testator died about 3 weeks ago.
>
> We need to appoint a firm of solicitors to deal with the probate and the
> administration of the estate. Everyone I've spoken to tells me that
> their experience with probate solicitors is that they are slow, fail to
> answer letters and sometimes give the wrong advice.

Unless it is a complex estate can't you DIY it?

> I chose a solicitor who seemed to specialise in the relevant area but he
> blotted his copybook by advising us that the joint bank account between
> the deceased and his wife would be paused or frozen until probate had
> been granted, meaning that the widow would not be able to pay any bills
> and the standing orders would cease to work.

Is this in the UK? That happens automatically in Belgium.
It seems a very basic mistake for a probate solicitor to make...

> So we have dis-instructed him. We have made an appointment to visit
> another law firm but due to holidays they can't see us for 4 weeks. I am
> hoping that there is nothing urgent that needs to be done in the meantime.
>
> Any views? Would you be tempted to use a good law firm that happens to
> be in another town or city rather than local? How would you choose a
> good firm and would you regard it as something that needs to be done
> urgently?

Depends if there is IHT due on the estate or other complex assets.

Otherwise I'd be inclined to DIY it. I arranged with my solicitor that I
would do as much as I could and only throw it at them if I found the
going too difficult (I wasn't sure that I could DIY it when I started).

If you can handle a spreadsheet and catalogue all the assets then you
are a long way towards doing what is needed for a probate valuation.
Filling in the forms is tedious but perfectly doable by a layman so
should be easier for a solicitor (even if it wasn't your field).

The only reason I can see to outsource the job of obtaining probate is
if some of the beneficiaries or executors are obnoxious. My local
practice also offered a fixed price deal for you provide all the figures
and do the legwork, we fill in the awkward forms and apply for probate
and then you do all the legwork collecting and distributing the funds.
This was considerably cheaper than the full one stop service.

They also have a price for you throw several shoeboxes of ancient
paperwork at them and they sort it all out for you (which we have used
once in a tricky case where probate had not been dealt with in a timely
fashion and things had become rather complicated as a result). Time
taken to sort through ancient paperwork plays a part in the costs.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown