May I watch the Eurovision Song Contest without a TV Licence?

[Nick Odell]

Please don't judge me! Yes I understand we already know who the winner
will be but I have sentimental reasons for wanting to watch which go
back to a family connection in 1979.

I can't watch the BBC RTÉ or any other broadcast on air or via the
internet because they are television shows and I don't have a licence.

I think I can watch Eurovision's own Live Stream because:

- They are not a regular broadcaster with a regular schedule

- I would not be watching the same programme as that being broadcast
on any other outlet because each country incorporates the material
from Eurovision into their own programming and every other
broadcaster's output is different - albeit with a common core.

If the jury's verdict is against then there's always Radio 2!

Thanks,

Nick

[JNugent]

When does it happen?

I could cut you a DVD-R.

[Nick Odell]

On Sun, 8 May 2022 12:13:23 +0100, JNugent <jennings&c...@fastmail.fm>
wrote:

That's a very kind offer but not necessary, thank you. The law will
allow me to watch the recording from the Eurovision channel after the
show is over. My question is about whether I may watch that specific
feed, on that actual night, while it is happening live, without
breaking the terms of my non-TV-Licence-holding status.

Nick

[notya...@gmail.com]

Interesting point this, if not it could mean that videos on Zoom could require a TV license.

[Roland Perry]

In message <ed428036-7d02-4e0e...@googlegroups.com>, at
06:09:58 on Mon, 9 May 2022, "notya...@gmail.com"
<notya...@gmail.com> remarked:

>On Monday, 9 May 2022 at 13:52:11 UTC+1, Nick Odell wrote:
>> On Sun, 8 May 2022 12:13:23 +0100, JNugent <jennings&c...@fastmail.fm>
>> wrote:
>> >On 08/05/2022 11:54 am, Nick Odell wrote:
>> >> Please don't judge me! Yes I understand we already know who the winner
>> >> will be but I have sentimental reasons for wanting to watch which go
>> >> back to a family connection in 1979.
>> >>

>> >> I can't watch the BBC RTÉ or any other broadcast on air or via the

>> >> internet because they are television shows and I don't have a licence.
>> >>
>> >> I think I can watch Eurovision's own Live Stream because:
>> >>
>> >> - They are not a regular broadcaster with a regular schedule
>> >>
>> >> - I would not be watching the same programme as that being broadcast
>> >> on any other outlet because each country incorporates the material
>> >> from Eurovision into their own programming and every other
>> >> broadcaster's output is different - albeit with a common core.
>> >>
>> >> If the jury's verdict is against then there's always Radio 2!
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >>
>> >> Nick
>> >
>> >When does it happen?
>> >
>> >I could cut you a DVD-R.
>> That's a very kind offer but not necessary, thank you. The law will
>> allow me to watch the recording from the Eurovision channel after the
>> show is over. My question is about whether I may watch that specific
>> feed, on that actual night, while it is happening live, without
>> breaking the terms of my non-TV-Licence-holding status.
>

>Interesting point this, if not it could mean that videos on Zoom could
>require a TV license.

Does Zoom have a concept of simulcasting commercial videos to large
audiences?
--
Roland Perry

[Norman Wells]

On 09/05/2022 13:51, Nick Odell wrote:
> On Sun, 8 May 2022 12:13:23 +0100, JNugent <jennings&c...@fastmail.fm>
> wrote:
>
>> On 08/05/2022 11:54 am, Nick Odell wrote:
>>> Please don't judge me! Yes I understand we already know who the winner
>>> will be but I have sentimental reasons for wanting to watch which go
>>> back to a family connection in 1979.
>>>
>>> I can't watch the BBC RTÉ or any other broadcast on air or via the
>>> internet because they are television shows and I don't have a licence.
>>>
>>> I think I can watch Eurovision's own Live Stream because:
>>>
>>> - They are not a regular broadcaster with a regular schedule
>>>
>>> - I would not be watching the same programme as that being broadcast
>>> on any other outlet because each country incorporates the material
>>> from Eurovision into their own programming and every other
>>> broadcaster's output is different - albeit with a common core.
>>>
>>> If the jury's verdict is against then there's always Radio 2!
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Nick
>>
>> When does it happen?
>>
>> I could cut you a DVD-R.
>
> That's a very kind offer but not necessary, thank you.

That would be a straight infringement of copyright.

> The law will
> allow me to watch the recording from the Eurovision channel after the
> show is over. My question is about whether I may watch that specific
> feed, on that actual night, while it is happening live, without
> breaking the terms of my non-TV-Licence-holding status.

And the quick answer to that is no.

From The Communications (Television Licensing) Regulations 2004:

'Definitions for the purposes of the Communications Act 2003 and the
Wireless Telegraphy Act 1967

Meaning of “television receiver”

9.—(1) In Part 4 of the Act (licensing of TV reception), “television
receiver” means any apparatus installed or used for the purpose of
receiving (whether by means of wireless telegraphy or otherwise) any
television programme service, whether or not it is installed or used for
any other purpose.

(2) In this regulation, any reference to receiving a television
programme service includes a reference to receiving by any means any
programme included in that service, where that programme is received at
the same time (or virtually the same time) as it is received by members
of the public by virtue of its being broadcast or distributed as part of
that service'

[JNugent]

Fair enough.

[Nick Odell]

On Mon, 9 May 2022 15:53:06 +0100, Norman Wells <h...@unseen.ac.am>
wrote:

My question is not about receiving equipment but about the meaning of
"television programme service" within the act.

In a discussion between Cordbusters and the BBC, the conversation went
as follows:

".......So I queried the BBC further, and was told that “For a service
to require a licence to watch” [even if you’re watching it streamed
online], “it must be a ‘television programme service'”.

The TV Licensing body would have to make that distinction, however.
Some of the factors that would be taken into account when considering
this are:

Whether a service has a regular schedule of programmes
How continuous a service is
Editorial control and consistency
The quality of production and editorial values.
Therefore, since most Twitch (and similar) live streams don’t come
from a body that resembles a “television programme service” – you
would not need a TV licence for them.

<https://www.cordbusters.co.uk/do-i-need-a-tv-licence-twitch-youtube-live/>
No, I don't know who Cordbusters are and I haven't a clue about Twitch
but with reference to the answers given by the BBC:

Eurovision does not have a regular schedule of programmes or offer a
continuous service and I do not think it could be called a "Television
Programme Service" within the meaning of the act.

If I were to watch the Eurovision stream I would be watching the raw
material which the national broadcasters and others would be editing
and modifying in the making of their programmes: I would not be
watching the actual programme of any "Television Broadcasting
Service."

Nick

[Roger Hayter]

On 9 May 2022 at 18:52:41 BST, "Nick Odell" <ni...@themusicworkshop.plus.com>
wrote:

>
>
> Eurovision does not have a regular schedule of programmes or offer a
> continuous service and I do not think it could be called a "Television
> Programme Service" within the meaning of the act.
>
>

II would say they did have a regular service; just not very frequent.

--
Roger Hayter

[Nick Odell]

If it always happened on -say- the 5th of April or the third Saturday
in March then I'd agree with you but, apart from the one year it never
happened at all, (though I accept they had a good reason for that) the
contest can pop up at any time between the beginning of March or the
end of May.

If on the other hand you'd like to say that whenever they have a song
contest they also have a transmission then I think that I'd describe
that as habitual rather than regular but I am open to persuasion.

Nick

[Roger Hayter]

On 9 May 2022 at 20:25:48 BST, "Nick Odell" <ni...@themusicworkshop.plus.com>

I think that a judicial decision as to whether it is a tv program service
could go either way. Not that anyone, even the TV licensing organisation, is
going to take it to court. Reasons in favour, it is live, it forms part of
various undoubted broadcasts, it is (imprecisely) regular and it is produced
by an organisation of broadcasterss. Against is that it is not part of
frequent ususally daily, series of different broadcast programmes.

As I am sure you realise I am merely advocating the opposeing view rather than
having any particular personal opinion.

--
Roger Hayter

[Norman Wells]

If it's available to you and others, it's being broadcast and the
provider is therefore providing a television programme service.

It's up to you whether you accept it.

[Nick Odell]

On Mon, 9 May 2022 22:27:09 +0100, Norman Wells <h...@unseen.ac.am>

It's been really interesting reading the different views here and it's
been encouraging me to read more around the subject.

The BBC, RTÉ, RTVE etc are television programme services - I don't
think there is any argument about that.

The European Broadcasting Union is an alliance of broadcasters based
in Geneva where they have an office and a technical department. Every
year (more or less) they organise a song contest and organise
distribution of the performances to television programme services
world-wide. But I don't think that makes themselves a television
programme service within the meaning of the act.

I wonder if a comparison with other organisations which put on
performances would be fair? St Martin in the Fields regularly promote
concerts and invite me to watch them on-line but SMitF are not a
television programme service. Teatro Colon puts on big performances in
their theatre and these are available from their own website and
elsewhere free of charge to everybody. That doesn't make them a
television programme service either. The EBU puts on the Eurovision
Song Contest and makes it directly available to the public on-line. I
don't think that makes them a television programme service within the
meaning of the act either. Television programme services such as the
BBC, RTÉ and RTVE are not simply relaying the EBU stream: they are
making their own, distinctive programmes out of it and that is not
what I would be watching.

I'm tempted to write to TVL and tell them how I plan to watch
Eurovision and invite them to come and have a go if they think they're
hard enough but I fear that would play straight into the hands of
Nadine Dorries.

Nick

[Roland Perry]

In message <t5e47f$a2j$1...@dont-email.me>, at 16:34:55 on Tue, 10 May
2022, Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> remarked:

>Yes.
>
>Next.

How do you join one of these events?
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <t5lk4a$hd7$1...@dont-email.me>, at 12:49:14 on Fri, 13 May
2022, Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> remarked:

>The last one was for people in education. I can't recall the exact
>details but it was pay-to-view. My CEO coughed up. (Although it may have
>been Teams - however the principle remains). So you join by paying.

Right, so you pay, and then they must send you come credentials to log
in. To what sounds like training course. Doesn't sound much like a few
hundred thousand people "tuning in" to watch the latest episode of
Downton Abbey.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <t5nnm5$hd7$4...@dont-email.me>, at 08:02:14 on Sat, 14 May
2022, Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> remarked:

>I note the first episode of the fourth series of "Stranger Things" is
>being livestreamed via "Netflix @ TikTok" according to my sources.
>Whether it needs a licence I leave to the courts.

I don't think Zoom has an interface with TikTok, but perhaps you can
help?
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <t5o96q$hd7$6...@dont-email.me>, at 13:01:14 on Sat, 14 May
2022, Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> remarked:

>It can be done. Like most things these days the components are all there.
>
>80% of "development" is really just plumbing these days.
>
>Zoom can easily livestream a PC window (or browser tab) and of course a
>browser tab can easily show a livesteam (iPlayer, YouTube, Vimeo etc
>etc).

I hadn't thought of that. How many people can watch such a live stream
at once, and does it have to be set up manually each time?

Of course, the sort of "commercial video" I had in mind was pay-per view
stuff, and won't the host end up with the bill? I gather that things
like boxing matches can be high-priced PPV, and do the originators have
any copyright issues with the sort of piggy-backing setup you describe.

>Saves the trouble of having to livestream a camera feed of a screen :)

--
Roland Perry

[Andy Burns]

Nick Odell wrote:

> May I watch the Eurovision Song Contest without a TV Licence?

Well, did you?

[Nick Odell]

On Mon, 16 May 2022 13:00:01 +0100, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>Nick Odell wrote:
>
>> May I watch the Eurovision Song Contest without a TV Licence?
>
>Well, did you?

Since you mention it..

Last year, without asking u.l.m for so much as a by your leave I
watched the Eurovision stream.

This year I clicked on to their stream only to be met with a message
to say that it was blocked in my country. So I ended up listening to
Radio 2 with Ken "I'm not really trying to be Terry Wogan" Bruce.

Next year I suppose I'd better read up in advance about proxy servers
and VPNs. I still think I can legitimately dodge the UK television
licencing thing by watching the EBU stream but I suppose that by
watching something they don't want me to see I could run into
copyright issues with the EBU.

Something to discuss next year, perhaps.

Thanks,

Nick

[Nasti Chestikov]

On Monday, 16 May 2022 at 13:40:51 UTC+1, Nick Odell wrote:
>
> This year I clicked on to their stream only to be met with a message
> to say that it was blocked in my country. So I ended up listening to
> Radio 2 with Ken "I'm not really trying to be Terry Wogan" Bruce.
>
> Next year I suppose I'd better read up in advance about proxy servers
> and VPNs
>

> Thanks,
>
> Nick

Yeah, using Epic Browser with VPN turned on by default, I get redirected from www.dailymail.co.uk to www.dailymail.co.uk/ushome/index.html

Very different UK reporting there compared to what they peddle their dumb UK punters.

[Simon Parker]

On 15/05/2022 11:09, Jethro_uk wrote:

> On Sat, 14 May 2022 15:49:37 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
>

>>> Zoom can easily livestream a PC window (or browser tab) and of course a
>>> browser tab can easily show a livesteam (iPlayer, YouTube, Vimeo etc
>>> etc).
>>
>> I hadn't thought of that.
>

> It's why I get paid ...

Indeed.

>> How many people can watch such a live stream
>> at once, and does it have to be set up manually each time?
>

> As far as I know there is no upper limit technically. The platform may
> set one though. Like with all things Zoom/Teams/gChat you could just
> setup a recurring meeting that generates the requisite parameters to
> initiate a meeting each time.

A basic Zoom account (£12 pcm) allows up to 100 simultaneous connetions.
The next level up from that is 300 connections.

But you're constraining yourself with the way you've framed your
solution, (if you'll excuse the pun).

Zoom supports simultaneous streaming using the typically expected
platforms like YouTube and Twitch, but also supports custom streaming
for less well known platforms or bespoke ones.

However, this needs setting up prior to the meeting being started.

So, setup the streaming details within the Zoom Web Portal. Launch Zoom
and login as host then start the meeting (or create a meeting which will
auto-start as soon as the first participant joins). Use a multi-screen
setup with a browser playing on a auxililary monitor in full screen mode
and then enable live streaming. (Every participant that connects will
be warned that the meeting is being live-streamed which they have to
accept ("Got it") or refuse ("Disconnect) when joining the meeting.

Finally, share the screen for the auxiliary monitor being sure to check
the two options at the bottom of the sharing screen ("Optimise for video
playback" and "share sound") and you're done.

In addition to logging into Zoom (using the Meeting ID and password),
the streamed content can be viewed on the streaming platform controlled
only by the limitations of that platform. (So it can be behind a
password / paywall or have more connections than permitted in Zoom.)
Live streaming isn't counted as a participant, so there can be 100
participants on Zoom plus as many as are permitted by the streaming
platform on a basic £12 account.

>> Of course, the sort of "commercial video" I had in mind was pay-per view
>> stuff,
>

> Hasn't the entire past 30 years been a masterclass in how expectations
> are really not a great predictor of reality ????? Or to be blunt, I can't
> be responsible for your assumptions ....

>
>> and won't the host end up with the bill? I gather that things
>> like boxing matches can be high-priced PPV, and do the originators have
>> any copyright issues with the sort of piggy-backing setup you describe.
>

> I refer you to my previous point about the legality - or otherwise - of
> such a setup. I can't say. If I were asked to hazard a guess, I'd come
> down on the side of it being frowned upon at least. However the past year
> has seem me care much less about the law. SO TL;DR is I don't care.

In the setup described above, participants connected directly to Zoom
are pretty safe. However, if one is streaming copyrighted content
without the correct permissions on one of the larger platforms, it may
well be taken down mid-stream by the streaming platform provider.

>>> Saves the trouble of having to livestream a camera feed of a screen :)

An alternative setup to the above, would be to screen the content on an
iPad and use the special screen share feature in Zoom for iPads
connected to the host. (Treated as a second monitor even though it
clearly isn't.)

Regards

S.P.