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certifying a copy of an LPA - do I really have to write the text by hand?
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RobertL
May 26, 2016, 6:32:49 AM5/26/16
to
I've got my two (registered) LPAs back from the OPG. Now I want to make some certified copies. The instructions from eth OPG say that I must write the text
"I certify this is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page of the original lasting power of attorney" on every page and sign and date. there's another text for the last page.
Does anyone know, do I really have to write (by hand) that text or can I use a 'rubber stamp' or put the text on the photocopier to it is added as the pages are copied?
There are 30 pages and I want to make several copies and I'd prefer not to write by hand the 2,400 words this would entail.
thanks for any advice,
Robert
Peter Crosland
May 26, 2016, 6:56:11 AM5/26/16
to
Absolutely ludicrous. Certified copies of probated wills are available
why not LPOAs?
--
Peter Crosland
Reply address is valid
RobertL
May 26, 2016, 8:22:06 AM5/26/16
to
Perhaps it's a sort of test to check that the donor still has capacity.
Robert
R. Mark Clayton
May 26, 2016, 9:08:00 AM5/26/16
to
An LPA can be cancelled, and the original has to be sent back.
Still mad they can't be easily copied.
The first thing I did after getting both my parents' EPA's registered was get certified copied, but they were only four / five pages.
Norman Wells
May 26, 2016, 9:08:43 AM5/26/16
to
"RobertL" <rober...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0d83cece-67a2-422d...@googlegroups.com...
You can't do them yourself since that is open to too much abuse and defeats the
object. You have to get a proper professional who is acceptable to whoever will be
acting on them to certify them. So, you need someone like a solicitor, who will
know how to handle it.
news:0d83cece-67a2-422d...@googlegroups.com...
object. You have to get a proper professional who is acceptable to whoever will be
acting on them to certify them. So, you need someone like a solicitor, who will
know how to handle it.
R. Mark Clayton
May 26, 2016, 1:06:16 PM5/26/16
to
Peter Crosland
May 26, 2016, 1:06:28 PM5/26/16
to
Peter Crosland
May 26, 2016, 6:32:19 PM5/26/16
to
Polite words about their intransigent attitude fail me!
Chris R
May 27, 2016, 5:07:34 AM5/27/16
to
Apologies for any duplication but I can't see that this message reached the
group when originally sent:
> "R. Mark Clayton" wrote in message
> news:75593b54-7b88-4105...@googlegroups.com...
What is the authority for that? I assumed section 3 Powers of Attorney Act
1971 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/27 applied, but i don't know
if there are specific rules for LPOAs.
--
Chris R
========legalstuff========
I post to be helpful but not claiming any expertise nor intending
anyone to rely on what I say. Nothing I post here will create a
professional relationship or duty of care. I do not provide legal
services to the public. My posts here refer only to English law except
where specified and are subject to the terms (including limitations of
liability) at http://www.clarityincorporatelaw.co.uk/legalstuff.html
======end legalstuff======
group when originally sent:
> "R. Mark Clayton" wrote in message
> news:75593b54-7b88-4105...@googlegroups.com...
1971 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/27 applied, but i don't know
if there are specific rules for LPOAs.
--
Chris R
========legalstuff========
I post to be helpful but not claiming any expertise nor intending
anyone to rely on what I say. Nothing I post here will create a
professional relationship or duty of care. I do not provide legal
services to the public. My posts here refer only to English law except
where specified and are subject to the terms (including limitations of
liability) at http://www.clarityincorporatelaw.co.uk/legalstuff.html
======end legalstuff======
Chris R
May 27, 2016, 5:11:31 AM5/27/16
to
"Chris R" wrote in message news:...
Apologies for any duplication but I can't see that this message reached the
group when originally sent:
>
signatures must be wet-ink originals. The donor (ie the person making the
LPOA) can certify it so long as he/she has not lost mental capacity. I
suggest using blue ink since one institution refused to accept that black
ink fountain pen signatures were not photocopies.
Lots of copies of the financial affairs LPOA are helpful if you have lots of
accounts, investments etc., as the attorneys may want to deal with several
at the same time. Institutions do return copies quite quickly but sometimes
put their own markings on them or scuff them up. The health & welfare LPOA
is less likely to need multiple copies.
Apologies for any duplication but I can't see that this message reached the
group when originally sent:
>
> I've got my two (registered) LPAs back from the OPG. Now I want to make
> some certified copies. The instructions from eth OPG say that I must
> write the text
> "I certify this is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page of
> the original lasting power of attorney" on every page and sign and date.
> there's another text for the last page.
>
> Does anyone know, do I really have to write (by hand) that text or can I
> use a 'rubber stamp' or put the text on the photocopier to it is added as
> the pages are copied?
>
> There are 30 pages and I want to make several copies and I'd prefer not to
> write by hand the 2,400 words this would entail.
>
> thanks for any advice,
>
You can rubber stamp or overprint the wording on the copy, but the
> some certified copies. The instructions from eth OPG say that I must
> write the text
> "I certify this is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page of
> the original lasting power of attorney" on every page and sign and date.
> there's another text for the last page.
>
> Does anyone know, do I really have to write (by hand) that text or can I
> use a 'rubber stamp' or put the text on the photocopier to it is added as
> the pages are copied?
>
> There are 30 pages and I want to make several copies and I'd prefer not to
> write by hand the 2,400 words this would entail.
>
> thanks for any advice,
>
signatures must be wet-ink originals. The donor (ie the person making the
LPOA) can certify it so long as he/she has not lost mental capacity. I
suggest using blue ink since one institution refused to accept that black
ink fountain pen signatures were not photocopies.
Lots of copies of the financial affairs LPOA are helpful if you have lots of
accounts, investments etc., as the attorneys may want to deal with several
at the same time. Institutions do return copies quite quickly but sometimes
put their own markings on them or scuff them up. The health & welfare LPOA
is less likely to need multiple copies.
RobertL
May 27, 2016, 12:24:04 PM5/27/16
to
Robert
Robin
May 28, 2016, 12:47:54 PM5/28/16
to
<snip>
the Office of the Public Guardian makes clear a donor does not require a
professional. See eg
https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney/make-lasting-power or download the
LPA forms and guidance from
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/lasting-power-of-attorney-forms
That said, I still think the whole LPA edifice is still a good example
of making the best the enemy of the good.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
>
> You can't do them yourself since that is open to too much abuse and
> defeats the object. You have to get a proper professional who is
> acceptable to whoever will be acting on them to certify them. So, you
> need someone like a solicitor, who will know how to handle it.
In some circs people need a professional but for many people the law and
> You can't do them yourself since that is open to too much abuse and
> defeats the object. You have to get a proper professional who is
> acceptable to whoever will be acting on them to certify them. So, you
> need someone like a solicitor, who will know how to handle it.
the Office of the Public Guardian makes clear a donor does not require a
professional. See eg
https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney/make-lasting-power or download the
LPA forms and guidance from
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/lasting-power-of-attorney-forms
That said, I still think the whole LPA edifice is still a good example
of making the best the enemy of the good.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
Robin
May 28, 2016, 12:48:21 PM5/28/16
to
On 26/05/2016 11:55, Peter Crosland wrote:
> On 26/05/2016 11:32, RobertL wrote:
<snip>
> On 26/05/2016 11:32, RobertL wrote:
>
> AFAIK yes. I wrote to the OPG about this two months ago but no reply.
> Absolutely ludicrous. Certified copies of probated wills are available
> why not LPOAs?
>
>
I shall contact the OPG on the same point as I can't see how they could
> AFAIK yes. I wrote to the OPG about this two months ago but no reply.
> Absolutely ludicrous. Certified copies of probated wills are available
> why not LPOAs?
>
>
justify a blanket requirement for the words to be in manuscript.
GB
May 28, 2016, 12:49:19 PM5/28/16
to
On 26/05/2016 11:32, RobertL wrote:
>
>
copies to, not the OPG. I wrote "Certified a true copy" on the front
page, and signed it. It was never queried.
In any case, even the OPG cannot possibly complain if their wording is
not individually hand-written, but I expect they would prefer you to
sign each page.
Chris R
May 28, 2016, 12:49:21 PM5/28/16
to
>
> Regards
>
> Chris
>
> ______________________
>
> Chris Robinson
> 58 Augusta Avenue
> Northampton NN4 0XP
> 07770 601840
> ______________________
> "R. Mark Clayton" wrote in message
> news:75593b54-7b88-4105...@googlegroups.com...
>
> news:75593b54-7b88-4105...@googlegroups.com...
>
What is the authority for that? I assumed section 3 Powers of Attorney Act
1971 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/27 applied, but i don't know
if there are specific rules for LPOAs.
1971 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/27 applied, but i don't know
if there are specific rules for LPOAs.
Robin
May 28, 2016, 12:49:31 PM5/28/16
to
On 26/05/2016 12:25, Norman Wells wrote:
<snip>
>
> You can't do them yourself since that is open to too much abuse and
> defeats the object. You have to get a proper professional who is
> acceptable to whoever will be acting on them to certify them. So, you
> need someone like a solicitor, who will know how to handle it.
I find that view impossible to reconcile with guidance on gov.uk and
> You can't do them yourself since that is open to too much abuse and
> defeats the object. You have to get a proper professional who is
> acceptable to whoever will be acting on them to certify them. So, you
> need someone like a solicitor, who will know how to handle it.
with the the statutory provision for self-certification. The
Regulations provide for registration of a certified copy where:
' “certified copy” means a photographic or other facsimile copy which is
certified as an accurate copy by—
(i)the donor; or
(ii)a solicitor or notary.” '
Robin
May 28, 2016, 12:49:41 PM5/28/16
to
On 26/05/2016 19:13, Peter Crosland wrote:
>
> The problem is that the OPG claim their specified method has to be used.
> Polite words about their intransigent attitude fail me!
>
>
I've joined in with an email to them given (a) I can't see where their
>
> The problem is that the OPG claim their specified method has to be used.
> Polite words about their intransigent attitude fail me!
>
>
legislation requires it, (b) I can't see where the Powers of Attorney
Act requires it and (c) given they let solicitors etc use stamps it
seems to me discriminatory - and in a very bad way given I'd argue the
Equality Act is engaged. (Eg if my stenosing tenosynovitis were having
a good - for it - day I'd struggle to write legibly 1000s of words.)
Chris R
May 28, 2016, 12:49:56 PM5/28/16
to
You can rubber stamp or overprint the wording on the copy, but the
signatures must be wet-ink originals. The donor (ie the person making the
LPOA) can certify it so long as he/she has not lost mental capacity. I
suggest using blue ink since one institution refused to accept that black
ink fountain pen signatures were not photocopies.
Lots of copies of the financial affairs LPOA are helpful if you have lots of
accounts, investments etc., as the attorneys may want to deal with several
at the same time. Institutions do return copies quite quickly but sometimes
put their own markings on them or scuff them up. The health & welfare LPOA
is less likely to need multiple copies.
signatures must be wet-ink originals. The donor (ie the person making the
LPOA) can certify it so long as he/she has not lost mental capacity. I
suggest using blue ink since one institution refused to accept that black
ink fountain pen signatures were not photocopies.
Lots of copies of the financial affairs LPOA are helpful if you have lots of
accounts, investments etc., as the attorneys may want to deal with several
at the same time. Institutions do return copies quite quickly but sometimes
put their own markings on them or scuff them up. The health & welfare LPOA
is less likely to need multiple copies.
GB
May 28, 2016, 12:50:20 PM5/28/16
to
On 26/05/2016 13:20, RobertL wrote:
Pelican
May 28, 2016, 5:40:22 PM5/28/16
to
them before they will act upon it to specify the method of
certification. It may be annoying, but it is normal.
Pelican
May 28, 2016, 5:42:35 PM5/28/16
to
of thumb is that there isn't any law, just compliance with the
requirements of whoever wants to see a certified copy before they will
do anything. It's an example of a legal myth at work.
Norman Wells
May 28, 2016, 5:46:24 PM5/28/16
to
"Robin" <rb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:ni8sgt$blu$1...@dont-email.me...
Several here, including me, were obviously unclear from your original post that it
was copies of a Power of Attorney that you yourself had executed that you wanted to
certify. Yes, you can do that yourself, but only in the way set out. If you find
it difficult to write, then let a professional do it for you or get someone else to
write the magic words for you, merely leaving you to sign each page. That's
perfectly acceptable, as is a rubber stamp. It's your signature that matters.
But what on earth do you need so many certified copies for anyway?
was copies of a Power of Attorney that you yourself had executed that you wanted to
certify. Yes, you can do that yourself, but only in the way set out. If you find
it difficult to write, then let a professional do it for you or get someone else to
write the magic words for you, merely leaving you to sign each page. That's
perfectly acceptable, as is a rubber stamp. It's your signature that matters.
But what on earth do you need so many certified copies for anyway?
Robin
May 28, 2016, 6:15:09 PM5/28/16
to
On 28/05/2016 19:55, Norman Wells wrote:
> "Robin" <rb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ni8sgt$blu$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On 26/05/2016 19:13, Peter Crosland wrote:
>
>>> The problem is that the OPG claim their specified method has to be used.
>>> Polite words about their intransigent attitude fail me!
>
>> I've joined in with an email to them given (a) I can't see where their
>> legislation requires it, (b) I can't see where the Powers of Attorney
>> Act requires it and (c) given they let solicitors etc use stamps it
>> seems to me discriminatory - and in a very bad way given I'd argue the
>> Equality Act is engaged. (Eg if my stenosing tenosynovitis were
>> having a good - for it - day I'd struggle to write legibly 1000s of
>> words.)
>
> Several here, including me, were obviously unclear from your original
> post that it was copies of a Power of Attorney that you yourself had
> executed that you wanted to certify. Yes, you can do that yourself, but
> only in the way set out.
I am not the OP so *I* don't need many copies.
> "Robin" <rb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ni8sgt$blu$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On 26/05/2016 19:13, Peter Crosland wrote:
>
>>> The problem is that the OPG claim their specified method has to be used.
>>> Polite words about their intransigent attitude fail me!
>
>> I've joined in with an email to them given (a) I can't see where their
>> legislation requires it, (b) I can't see where the Powers of Attorney
>> Act requires it and (c) given they let solicitors etc use stamps it
>> seems to me discriminatory - and in a very bad way given I'd argue the
>> Equality Act is engaged. (Eg if my stenosing tenosynovitis were
>> having a good - for it - day I'd struggle to write legibly 1000s of
>> words.)
>
> Several here, including me, were obviously unclear from your original
> post that it was copies of a Power of Attorney that you yourself had
> executed that you wanted to certify. Yes, you can do that yourself, but
> only in the way set out.
But I am now confused because (given capacity and acquaintances) there
is also no need to pay a professional to make an LPA in the first place.
If you believe that is wrong please explain why gov.uk helps people do
just that.
If you find it difficult to write, then let a
> professional do it for you or get someone else to write the magic words
> for you, merely leaving you to sign each page. That's perfectly
> acceptable, as is a rubber stamp. It's your signature that matters.
DIY copies.
Chris R
May 29, 2016, 4:58:34 AM5/29/16
to
> On 27/05/2016 02:41, R. Mark Clayton wrote:
> > On Thursday, 26 May 2016 14:08:43 UTC+1, Norman Wells wrote:
> >> "RobertL" <rober...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> news:0d83cece-67a2-422d...@googlegroups.com...
> >>>
> >>> I've got my two (registered) LPAs back from the OPG. Now I want to
> >>> make some
> >>> certified copies. The instructions from eth OPG say that I must write
> >>> the text
> >>> "I certify this is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page
> >>> of the
> >>> original lasting power of attorney" on every page and sign and date.
> >>> there's
> >>> another text for the last page.
> >>>
> >>> Does anyone know, do I really have to write (by hand) that text or can
> >>> I use a
> >>> 'rubber stamp' or put the text on the photocopier to it is added as
> >>> the pages are
> >>> copied?
> >>>
> >>> There are 30 pages and I want to make several copies and I'd prefer
> >>> not to write
> >>> by hand the 2,400 words this would entail.
> >>
> >> You can't do them yourself since that is open to too much abuse and
> >> defeats the
> >> object. You have to get a proper professional who is acceptable to
> >> whoever will be
> >> acting on them to certify them. So, you need someone like a solicitor,
> >> who will
> >> know how to handle it.
>
> >> defeats the
> >> object. You have to get a proper professional who is acceptable to
> >> whoever will be
> >> acting on them to certify them. So, you need someone like a solicitor,
> >> who will
> >> know how to handle it.
>
> Any law applicable about certified copies of a document? The usual rule
> of thumb is that there isn't any law, just compliance with the
> requirements of whoever wants to see a certified copy before they will do
> anything. It's an example of a legal myth at work.
Section 3 Powers of Attorney Act 1971?
> of thumb is that there isn't any law, just compliance with the
> requirements of whoever wants to see a certified copy before they will do
> anything. It's an example of a legal myth at work.
Pelican
May 29, 2016, 5:55:18 AM5/29/16
to
made. It depends upon the requirements of the person given a certified
copy. So far as section 3 is concerned, it applies only to a POA, and
gives some indication of how a certified copy might be made. It's an
empowering provision, not a mandatory provision. A person receiving
such a certified copy is quite free (if unlikely) to require a certified
copy made in another way.
Chris R
May 29, 2016, 7:51:59 AM5/29/16
to
section 3 has no legitimate reason for doing so, and is likely to have a
complaint upheld by the Ombudsman or a disability discrimination claim made.
On the other hand, in the absence of a section 3 certification, the
institution is at risk if it turns out that the power has been revoked, so
would be well-advised to reject it.
Judith
May 29, 2016, 5:13:53 PM5/29/16
to
On Thu, 26 May 2016 15:46:34 +0100, "Chris R" <inv...@invalid.munge.co.uk>
wrote:
>
>>
>> I've got my two (registered) LPAs back from the OPG. Now I want to make
>> some certified copies. The instructions from eth OPG say that I must
>> write the text
>> "I certify this is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page of
>> the original lasting power of attorney" on every page and sign and date.
>> there's another text for the last page.
>>
>> Does anyone know, do I really have to write (by hand) that text or can I
>> use a 'rubber stamp' or put the text on the photocopier to it is added as
>> the pages are copied?
>>
>> There are 30 pages and I want to make several copies and I'd prefer not to
>> write by hand the 2,400 words this would entail.
>>
>> thanks for any advice,
>>
>You can rubber stamp or overprint the wording on the copy, but the
>signatures must be wet-ink originals. The donor (ie the person making the
>LPOA) can certify it so long as he/she has not lost mental capacity. I
>suggest using blue ink since one institution refused to accept that black
>ink fountain pen signatures were not photocopies.
Not relevant to this thread : but in the days before colour copiers, where I
worked had documents stamped : "Invalid copy if not in red".
wrote:
>
>>
>> I've got my two (registered) LPAs back from the OPG. Now I want to make
>> some certified copies. The instructions from eth OPG say that I must
>> write the text
>> "I certify this is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page of
>> the original lasting power of attorney" on every page and sign and date.
>> there's another text for the last page.
>>
>> Does anyone know, do I really have to write (by hand) that text or can I
>> use a 'rubber stamp' or put the text on the photocopier to it is added as
>> the pages are copied?
>>
>> There are 30 pages and I want to make several copies and I'd prefer not to
>> write by hand the 2,400 words this would entail.
>>
>> thanks for any advice,
>>
>You can rubber stamp or overprint the wording on the copy, but the
>signatures must be wet-ink originals. The donor (ie the person making the
>LPOA) can certify it so long as he/she has not lost mental capacity. I
>suggest using blue ink since one institution refused to accept that black
>ink fountain pen signatures were not photocopies.
worked had documents stamped : "Invalid copy if not in red".
Pelican
May 29, 2016, 6:51:35 PM5/29/16
to
ink,or not every page of a long document being certified, and so on?
The practical response to a demand is to comply.
> On the other hand, in the absence of a section 3 certification,
> the institution is at risk if it turns out that the power has been
> revoked, so would be well-advised to reject it.
Chris R
May 30, 2016, 2:14:40 AM5/30/16
to
wrong to link the two - section 4 doesn't rely on a section 3 certified
copy.
Flop
May 30, 2016, 4:41:27 AM5/30/16
to
On 29/05/2016 20:50, Judith wrote:
> Not relevant to this thread : but in the days before colour copiers, where I
> worked had documents stamped : "Invalid copy if not in red".
>
Working under GLP (Good Laboratory Practice - the protocol for
> Not relevant to this thread : but in the days before colour copiers, where I
> worked had documents stamped : "Invalid copy if not in red".
>
documentation for eg drug research), I could never understand the
insistence that documents should be signed in black ink. With the
quality of modern photocopiers and using a document feed, it is
difficult to determine which is the photocopy and which is the original.
(Hint - the copy is warmer).
It turns out that non-black ink was frowned upon because original
copiers used different designs which may not copy different colours.
Another example of ex-cathedra dictates which become past their sell-by
date.
--
Flop
Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children
Roger Hayter
May 30, 2016, 5:59:21 AM5/30/16
to
that they only managed to enforce it on doctors after the rule had
become obsolete, but they did so anyway; because they could!
--
Roger Hayter
margaret...@gmail.com
Oct 28, 2019, 9:23:07 AM10/28/19
to
I have both l.p.a. and have been told by the office of public guardian just to write text on all pages and donor to sign and date copies to cerify them. Dont need to go through solicitor.
Martin Brown
Oct 28, 2019, 9:43:02 AM10/28/19
to
where you will struggle to find enough space to write the required text
and sign and date it. If you are the donor then the text, your signature
and a date is sufficient otherwise a solicitor certified copy is needed.
https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney/certify
Never let go of the original and make at least two copies. Banks have a
nasty habit of losing or misplacing such documents from time to time.
Be assured that some organisations NS&I was the one that gave me the
most grief will insist that if a solicitor certifies it then it must be
by using their personal numbered stamp and not the practice stamp. I
never did find out if they were right since it became sadly irrelevant.
I absolutely hate controlled documents with multiple page 11 of 11's.
(or have they finally fixed that bug?)
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
GB
Oct 28, 2019, 3:34:55 PM10/28/19
to
operation. I have the originals sitting on my desk, still in the
envelopes the OPG sent them back to me in.
I assume that the OPG has copies, so why don't they issue certified
copies, for a suitable fee?
As it is, if I understand Martin correctly, I ought to make a copy of
both LPAs, then write on every page of the copy: “I certify this is a
true and complete copy of the corresponding page of the original lasting
power of attorney.”
On the final page of the copy, I must also write: “I certify this is a
true and complete copy of the lasting power of attorney.”
I need to sign and date every page.
That's an awful faff, especially as I have RSI, plus awful handwriting.
In the past, when I have certified copies, I have simply written
"Certified copy" and signed it.
Why do the OPG need to make everything so bleeding complicated?
R. Mark Clayton
Oct 29, 2019, 8:44:06 AM10/29/19
to
On Thursday, 26 May 2016 11:32:49 UTC+1, RobertL wrote:
> I've got my two (registered) LPAs back from the OPG. Now I want to make some certified copies. The instructions from eth OPG say that I must write the text
> "I certify this is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page of the original lasting power of attorney" on every page and sign and date. there's another text for the last page.
>
> Does anyone know, do I really have to write (by hand) that text or can I use a 'rubber stamp' or put the text on the photocopier to it is added as the pages are copied?
>
> There are 30 pages and I want to make several copies and I'd prefer not to write by hand the 2,400 words this would entail.
>
> I've got my two (registered) LPAs back from the OPG. Now I want to make some certified copies. The instructions from eth OPG say that I must write the text
> "I certify this is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page of the original lasting power of attorney" on every page and sign and date. there's another text for the last page.
>
> Does anyone know, do I really have to write (by hand) that text or can I use a 'rubber stamp' or put the text on the photocopier to it is added as the pages are copied?
>
> There are 30 pages and I want to make several copies and I'd prefer not to write by hand the 2,400 words this would entail.
>
> thanks for any advice,
>
> Robert
A public notary friend of mine uses a stamp as AIUI do many solicitors.
>
> Robert
GB
Oct 29, 2019, 10:26:38 AM10/29/19
to
to each institution you send a copy to what their procedures are?
Presumably they'd have to be pretty weird to reject the copies certified
in the way the OPG suggests, but they *might* accept a plain photocopy,
or one with a certificate just on the first page.
I cannot see why they would reject a copy because the certificate is
printed or stamped, rather than hand-written, although they might
require a signature or initials on each page.
I have no idea whether they would be within their rights to insist on
sight of the original?
GB
Oct 29, 2019, 10:32:01 AM10/29/19
to
On 29/10/2019 14:26, GB wrote:
> Surely, whilst the OPG has recommended a particular procedure, it is up
> to each institution you send a copy to what their procedures are?
The Land Registry, for example, says:
> Surely, whilst the OPG has recommended a particular procedure, it is up
> to each institution you send a copy to what their procedures are?
We will keep the evidence lodged in our files. Therefore if you need to
keep the original you should lodge a copy with your application. Section
3 of the Powers of Attorney Act 1971 prescribes a strict method of
proving the contents of a power of attorney. To follow this procedure
the donor of the power, a solicitor, notary public or stockbroker must
certify:
at the end of a photocopy of the power that it is a true and complete
copy of the original
on each page of the photocopy, if the power includes more than 1 page,
that the page is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page of
the original
*In practice we will usually accept a photocopy that is certified by a
conveyancer to be a true copy of the original power. However, in any
case of doubt, we would ask you to produce either the original or the
more formal certified copy mentioned above.*
Wm
Oct 29, 2019, 10:55:15 AM10/29/19
to
On 28/10/2019 19:34, GB wrote:
> That's really interesting. I made LPAs a few months ago, prior to an
> operation. I have the originals sitting on my desk, still in the
> envelopes the OPG sent them back to me in.
>
> I assume that the OPG has copies, so why don't they issue certified
> copies, for a suitable fee?
>
> As it is, if I understand Martin correctly, I ought to make a copy of
> both LPAs, then write on every page of the copy: “I certify this is a
> true and complete copy of the corresponding page of the original lasting
> power of attorney.”
>
> On the final page of the copy, I must also write: “I certify this is a
> true and complete copy of the lasting power of attorney.”
>
> I need to sign and date every page.
>
> That's an awful faff, especially as I have RSI, plus awful handwriting.
> In the past, when I have certified copies, I have simply written
> "Certified copy" and signed it.
>
> Why do the OPG need to make everything so bleeding complicated?
I'll hazard a guess, someone abused the process and a door was closed
> That's really interesting. I made LPAs a few months ago, prior to an
> operation. I have the originals sitting on my desk, still in the
> envelopes the OPG sent them back to me in.
>
> I assume that the OPG has copies, so why don't they issue certified
> copies, for a suitable fee?
>
> As it is, if I understand Martin correctly, I ought to make a copy of
> both LPAs, then write on every page of the copy: “I certify this is a
> true and complete copy of the corresponding page of the original lasting
> power of attorney.”
>
> On the final page of the copy, I must also write: “I certify this is a
> true and complete copy of the lasting power of attorney.”
>
> I need to sign and date every page.
>
> That's an awful faff, especially as I have RSI, plus awful handwriting.
> In the past, when I have certified copies, I have simply written
> "Certified copy" and signed it.
>
> Why do the OPG need to make everything so bleeding complicated?
after the horse shat on the way out to freedom.
--
Wm
Martin Brown
Oct 29, 2019, 11:27:00 AM10/29/19
to
your powers under it varies from being easy to virtually impossible
depending on the exact bank and whether or not you run into a jobsworth.
Certain "online only" bank accounts that will only allow you to use an
undermanned phone line when using an LPoA are exceptionally painful.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Martin Brown
Oct 29, 2019, 11:36:14 AM10/29/19
to
On 29/10/2019 14:26, GB wrote:
> On 29/10/2019 12:11, R. Mark Clayton wrote:
>> On Thursday, 26 May 2016 11:32:49 UTC+1, RobertL wrote:
>>> I've got my two (registered) LPAs back from the OPG. Now I want to
>>> make some certified copies. The instructions from eth OPG say that I
>>> must write the text
>>> "I certify this is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page
>>> of the original lasting power of attorney" on every page and sign and
>>> date. there's another text for the last page.
>>>
>>> Does anyone know, do I really have to write (by hand) that text or
>>> can I use a 'rubber stamp' or put the text on the photocopier to it
>>> is added as the pages are copied?
>>>
>>> There are 30 pages and I want to make several copies and I'd prefer
>>> not to write by hand the 2,400 words this would entail.
>>>
>>> thanks for any advice,
>>>
>>> Robert
>>
>> A public notary friend of mine uses a stamp as AIUI do many solicitors.
>
> Surely, whilst the OPG has recommended a particular procedure, it is up
> to each institution you send a copy to what their procedures are?
Yes. And they vary in how carefully they read them too.
>> On Thursday, 26 May 2016 11:32:49 UTC+1, RobertL wrote:
>>> I've got my two (registered) LPAs back from the OPG. Now I want to
>>> make some certified copies. The instructions from eth OPG say that I
>>> must write the text
>>> "I certify this is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page
>>> of the original lasting power of attorney" on every page and sign and
>>> date. there's another text for the last page.
>>>
>>> Does anyone know, do I really have to write (by hand) that text or
>>> can I use a 'rubber stamp' or put the text on the photocopier to it
>>> is added as the pages are copied?
>>>
>>> There are 30 pages and I want to make several copies and I'd prefer
>>> not to write by hand the 2,400 words this would entail.
>>>
>>> thanks for any advice,
>>>
>>> Robert
>>
>> A public notary friend of mine uses a stamp as AIUI do many solicitors.
>
> Surely, whilst the OPG has recommended a particular procedure, it is up
> to each institution you send a copy to what their procedures are?
> Presumably they'd have to be pretty weird to reject the copies certified
> in the way the OPG suggests, but they *might* accept a plain photocopy,
> or one with a certificate just on the first page.
done by the junior dogsbody using the practice stamp rather than a named
individual solicitor using their own personal stamp. I still don't know
whether they were right or wrong in this matter. No other bank noticed.
>
> I cannot see why they would reject a copy because the certificate is
> printed or stamped, rather than hand-written, although they might
> require a signature or initials on each page.
>
> I have no idea whether they would be within their rights to insist on
> sight of the original?
The original is an unimpressive looking mess with a few holes punched
> I cannot see why they would reject a copy because the certificate is
> printed or stamped, rather than hand-written, although they might
> require a signature or initials on each page.
>
> I have no idea whether they would be within their rights to insist on
> sight of the original?
through it as certification by the OPG. Might take a day to fake it.
I have a particular dislike of controlled documents with an excess of
last pages all numbered the same but with different content. YMMV
The whole mess of physical paper copies for LPoA is ridiculous. There
should be a central database and a one time pass code for access much
like there is for DVLA driving licence checks when you hire a vehicle.
The bank could then be sure they were seeing the copy lodged with OPG.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
GB
Oct 29, 2019, 3:30:05 PM10/29/19
to
On 29/10/2019 15:36, Martin Brown wrote:
> No. NS&I were very particular and refused to accept a copy that had been
> done by the junior dogsbody using the practice stamp rather than a named
> individual solicitor using their own personal stamp. I still don't know
> whether they were right or wrong in this matter. No other bank noticed.
I think they were wrong, and I think I can prove it! :)
> No. NS&I were very particular and refused to accept a copy that had been
> done by the junior dogsbody using the practice stamp rather than a named
> individual solicitor using their own personal stamp. I still don't know
> whether they were right or wrong in this matter. No other bank noticed.
This is all covered by S.3 of the Powers of Attorney Act, which reads as
follows:
"Proof of instruments creating powers of attorney.
(1)The contents of an instrument creating a power of attorney may be
proved by means of a copy which—
(a)is a reproduction of the original made with a photographic or other
device for reproducing documents in facsimile; and
(b)contains the following certificate or certificates signed by the
donor of the power or by a solicitor, authorised person or stockbroker,
that is to say—
(i)a certificate at the end to the effect that the copy is a true and
complete copy of the original; and
(ii)if the original consists of two or more pages, a certificate at the
end of each page of the copy to the effect that it is a true and
complete copy of the corresponding page of the original."
So, the certificates need to be signed by the donor or a solicitor,
authorised person, or stockbroker, but there's nothing in there about
the precise wording of the certificate or the need for a particular stamp.
It seems clear that the OPG's wording is far more verbose than
necessary, and there's clearly no need for the certificate to be
hand-written.
Roger Hayter
Oct 29, 2019, 5:40:04 PM10/29/19
to
different thing and not a subset of ordinary powers of Attorney?
--
Roger Hayter
Martin Brown
Oct 30, 2019, 5:39:19 AM10/30/19
to
On 29/10/2019 19:29, GB wrote:
> On 29/10/2019 15:36, Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> No. NS&I were very particular and refused to accept a copy that had
>> been done by the junior dogsbody using the practice stamp rather than
>> a named individual solicitor using their own personal stamp. I still
>> don't know whether they were right or wrong in this matter. No other
>> bank noticed.
>
> I think they were wrong, and I think I can prove it! :)
>
> This is all covered by S.3 of the Powers of Attorney Act, which reads as
> follows:
>
> "Proof of instruments creating powers of attorney.
> (1)The contents of an instrument creating a power of attorney may be
> proved by means of a copy which—
> (a)is a reproduction of the original made with a photographic or other
> device for reproducing documents in facsimile; and
> (b)contains the following certificate or certificates signed by the
> donor of the power or by a solicitor, authorised person or stockbroker,
> that is to say—
> (i)a certificate at the end to the effect that the copy is a true and
> complete copy of the original; and
> (ii)if the original consists of two or more pages, a certificate at the
> end of each page of the copy to the effect that it is a true and
> complete copy of the corresponding page of the original."
ISTR It was about 15 pages in total of which the last 4 were all marked
> On 29/10/2019 15:36, Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> No. NS&I were very particular and refused to accept a copy that had
>> been done by the junior dogsbody using the practice stamp rather than
>> a named individual solicitor using their own personal stamp. I still
>> don't know whether they were right or wrong in this matter. No other
>> bank noticed.
>
> I think they were wrong, and I think I can prove it! :)
>
> This is all covered by S.3 of the Powers of Attorney Act, which reads as
> follows:
>
> "Proof of instruments creating powers of attorney.
> (1)The contents of an instrument creating a power of attorney may be
> proved by means of a copy which—
> (a)is a reproduction of the original made with a photographic or other
> device for reproducing documents in facsimile; and
> (b)contains the following certificate or certificates signed by the
> donor of the power or by a solicitor, authorised person or stockbroker,
> that is to say—
> (i)a certificate at the end to the effect that the copy is a true and
> complete copy of the original; and
> (ii)if the original consists of two or more pages, a certificate at the
> end of each page of the copy to the effect that it is a true and
> complete copy of the corresponding page of the original."
"Page 11 of 11" when I last did one. Controlled document - pah! :(
> So, the certificates need to be signed by the donor or a solicitor,
> authorised person, or stockbroker, but there's nothing in there about
> the precise wording of the certificate or the need for a particular stamp.
>
> It seems clear that the OPG's wording is far more verbose than
> necessary, and there's clearly no need for the certificate to be
> hand-written.
still seems to be a risk that some financial institutions will not
accept anything other than a named and numbered personal solicitors
stamp signed and dated by that solicitor.
Guidance on OPG's website does suggest a precise specific form of words.
And some institutions can be exceptionally awkward about accepting these
LPoA authorities and will procrastinate and prevaricate at every turn.
Most are OK but you have to allow for at least one that loses all the
paperwork and/or denies having ever received it despite sending an
acknowledgement. Same applies to any paperwork sent to a bank. YMMV
I also have a returned certified copy of a certified copy in my files
because the bank lost the original after scanning and had to print their
scanned electronic copy and countersign it. I never risked using that.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
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