Giving way to pedestrians

[TMS320]

Yesterday, approaching the exit of a roundabout, a pedestrian walked out
in front of me. Nothing to worry about, though after I stopped he
shouted "you should have stopped".

It leads me to wonder how people are interpreting the Highway Code.

I take the view that the exit of a roundabout is not a turn because any
change of direction has been completed before the exit. Also, give way
lines are only painted at entry points.

I see it as equivalent to turning out of a t-junction, where the person
turning out is only expected to give way at the give way line, not after
entering the main road.

But if we take the example of a simple 4 arm roundabout, a person going
straight across is not making a turn other than to follow the shape of
the road. Would this person be expected to stop?

Users from other entry points make their turn and join the same track
taken by the straight on user before the exit. So to be consistent, a
requirement to stop on exit would have to apply to all users, no matter
their point of entry.

What are the thoughts here?

[TMS320]

On 09/08/2022 22:55, Jethro_uk wrote:

> AFAIAA motorists are required to give way to pedestrians when turning
> into a road from a main road, which seems a similar if not identical
> manoeuvr...
Turning into a road from a main road involves crossing a line. Two lines
when turning right. Yes, give way from whichever direction a line is
being approached. I don't see any similarity to exiting a roundabout.

[TTman]

What sort of fool wants to walk in front of a car at a roundabout? It's
not a main road turning into a side road situation.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Roland Perry]

In message <tcumqo$1gjd0$1...@dont-email.me>, at 23:24:23 on Tue, 9 Aug
2022, TMS320 <dr6...@gmail.com> remarked:

The "lines" motorists should be interested in is the edges of the
invisible footpath along the main road, which has a "level crossing"
with the bit that vehicles drive upon.

This is a junction where motorists rarely feel the need to be nice to
pedestrians (they are too busy finding a gap in the traffic). But the
invisible pavement goes straight through the front seats of the white
car.

A pedestrian arriving after the car has to wait (rather than climb over
its roof) but once having started crossing all cars should give them
priority (whether turning into or out of the side road):
<https://goo.gl/maps/EYSbGPF3YSXQ77TA8>

>Two lines when turning right. Yes, give way from whichever direction a
>line is being approached. I don't see any similarity to exiting a
>roundabout.

The so-called "Dutch Roundabout" is an attempt to formalise the process,
but if a roundabout has a footway around the outside (not that many do,
and even some of those extend it substantially down the exits and
provide marked pedestrian routings) I think the rule I have described
should apply.

And while I don't expect many motorists to agree, I think in principle
pedestrians should have priority on both halves of this roundabout exit:
<https://goo.gl/maps/zcRdTfPcneidNCaz6> because it's not been extended
sufficiently far from the roundabout to be a separate free-standing
pedestrian facility. (I won't say "pedestrian crossing" because that
evokes images of zebra stripes).
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <tcvoir$1oqej$1...@dont-email.me>, at 09:00:27 on Wed, 10 Aug
2022, TTman <kraken...@gmail.com> remarked:

Main road and two side roads: https://goo.gl/maps/QhFJ9UW9x9uxcXcX8
--
Roland Perry

[JNugent]

A reasonable question.

The first thing you need to ask yourself is what rights to pedestrians
(that's *all* of us, remember) have to cross the road at a junction
which consists of a roundabout. There's one about 75 yards from my house
(mini-roundabout at a minor T-junction).

If traffic turning off the roundabout were not turning into a different
road (different, that is, from the road of which the roundabout's
carriageway consists), there would be no obvious requirement to stop and
give way to a pedestrian crossing the road into which a vehicle were
turning. Pedestrians would be at a disadvantage. Can that be what the
law in such locations means?

[Roland Perry]

In message <jlhian...@mid.individual.net>, at 12:15:35 on Wed, 10
Aug 2022, JNugent <jennings&c...@fastmail.fm> remarked:

It's not turning

>into a different road (different, that is, from the road of which the
>roundabout's carriageway consists), there would be no obvious
>requirement to stop and give way to a pedestrian crossing the road into
>which a vehicle were turning.

But now it is. How confusing.

>Pedestrians would be at a disadvantage. Can that be what the law in
>such locations means?

--
Roland Perry

[JNugent]

On 10/08/2022 09:03 am, Roland Perry wrote:

> TMS320 <dr6...@gmail.com> remarked:

Completely correct. And the Highway Code Rule obliquely cited by TMS320
must be 170, which I quote here:

QUOTE:
170
Take extra care at junctions. You should

- watch out for cyclists, motorcyclists and pedestrians including
powered wheelchairs/mobility scooter users as they are not always
easy to see. Be aware that they may not have seen or heard you if
you are approaching from behind

- give way to pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross a road into
which or from which you are turning. If they have started to
cross they have priority, so give way (see Rule H2)

- remain behind cyclists, horse riders, horse drawn vehicles and
motorcyclists at junctions even if they are waiting to turn and
are positioned close to the kerb

[I accept that the exact meaning of that one is somewhat opaque
- what does "remain behind" mean?]

- watch out for long vehicles which may be turning at a junction
ahead; they may have to use the whole width of the road to make
the turn (see Rule 221)

- watch out for horse riders who may take a different line on the
road from that which you would expect

- not assume, when waiting at a junction, that a vehicle coming from
the right and signalling left will actually turn. Wait and make
sure look all around before emerging. Do not cross or join a road
until there is a gap large enough for you to do so safely.
ENDQUOTE

Note: nothing about lines painted on the carriageway surface. Not a word.

>> Two lines when turning right. Yes, give way from whichever direction a
>> line is being approached. I don't see any similarity to exiting a
>> roundabout.

But "lines" are not relevant. The HC Rule makes no mention of them -
does it?

> The so-called "Dutch Roundabout" is an attempt to formalise the process,
> but if a roundabout has a footway around the outside (not that many do,
> and even some of those extend it substantially down the exits and
> provide marked pedestrian routings) I think the rule I have described
> should apply.
>
> And while I don't expect many motorists to agree, I think in principle
> pedestrians should have priority on both halves of this roundabout exit:
> <https://goo.gl/maps/zcRdTfPcneidNCaz6> because it's not been extended
> sufficiently far from the roundabout to be a separate free-standing
> pedestrian facility. (I won't say "pedestrian crossing" because that
> evokes images of zebra stripes).

That one should ideally be marked as a split zebra crossing with
beacons. No harm could come of it and much good could.

[TMS320]

On 10/08/2022 15:20, JNugent wrote:
>> TMS320 <dr6...@gmail.com> remarked:

>
>>> Two lines when turning right. Yes, give way from whichever direction
>>> a line is being approached. I don't see any similarity to exiting a
>>> roundabout.
>
> But "lines" are not relevant. The HC Rule makes no mention of them -
> does it?

It tells us what road lines mean and when we see a particular set we are
informed that they mean "give way". There is no need for further
explanation. When we encounter them, they also happen to give us spatial
clues.

[Roland Perry]

In message <td2ci6$24cpl$1...@dont-email.me>, at 08:53:41 on Thu, 11 Aug
2022, TMS320 <dr6...@gmail.com> remarked:

Yes, they are useful when giving way to other *vehicles*, the topic
however is giving way to *pedestrians*.
--
Roland Perry

[Penny Farthing]

This is a very good point as it would seem quite dangerous to give way to pedestrians waiting to cross at the exit of a roundabout. However, The new Highway Code Rule H2 (page 4) says "at a Junction (a roundabout is a junction) you should give way to pedestrians who are crossing or waiting to cross a road into which or from which you are turning.

This is the one new rule I disagree with. Even at plain straightforward junctions, it would mean stopping on a main before entering a side road, thus making the driver vulnerable to cars behind on the main road. Secondly, not all pedestrians know this new rule so some could just be standing on the corner waiting for the car to turn, or indeed standing on the corner having a chat!! I understand the point of safety for pedestrians and the hierarchy of road users but this one is flawed I feel

Penn

[Andy Burns]

Penny Farthing wrote:

> The new Highway Code Rule H2 (page 4) says "at a Junction (a roundabout is a
> junction) you should give way to pedestrians who are crossing or waiting to
> cross a road into which or from which you are turning.

Is that your interpretation "(a roundabout is a junction)"? Because it doesn't
exist in the H2 section that I downloaded ...

[Penny Farthing]

.

Sorry, yes that's my interpretation - well a dictionary interpretation "a point where two or more things are joined"

[Roland Perry]

In message <2cb06a2d-93b4-41e0...@googlegroups.com>, at
06:48:47 on Thu, 11 Aug 2022, Penny Farthing <alisons...@gmail.com>
remarked:

>On Thursday, August 11, 2022 at 11:57:02 AM UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <td2ci6$24cpl$1...@dont-email.me>, at 08:53:41 on Thu, 11 Aug
>> 2022, TMS320 <dr6...@gmail.com> remarked:
>> >On 10/08/2022 15:20, JNugent wrote:
>> >>> TMS320 <dr6...@gmail.com> remarked:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>>> Two lines when turning right. Yes, give way from whichever
>> >>>>direction a line is being approached. I don't see any similarity to
>> >>>>exiting a roundabout.
>> >> But "lines" are not relevant. The HC Rule makes no mention of them -
>> >>does it?
>> >
>> >It tells us what road lines mean and when we see a particular set we
>> >are informed that they mean "give way". There is no need for further
>> >explanation. When we encounter them, they also happen to give us
>> >spatial clues.
>> Yes, they are useful when giving way to other *vehicles*, the topic
>> however is giving way to *pedestrians*.
>> --
>> Roland Perry
>
>This is a very good point as it would seem quite dangerous to give way
>to pedestrians waiting to cross at the exit of a roundabout. However,
>The new Highway Code Rule H2 (page 4) says "at a Junction (a roundabout
>is a junction) you should give way to pedestrians who are crossing or
>waiting to cross a road into which or from which you are turning.

And yet that's the *requirement* at "Dutch Roundabouts", one of which I
negotiated for the umpteenth time earlier to on the Cambridge Ring Road.

>This is the one new rule I disagree with. Even at plain
>straightforward junctions, it would mean stopping on a main before

Not sure why that particular risk applies more to this subset of
stopping. Yes, there are drivers who wrongly predict the car in front
isn't going to stop (and thus rear-end them) , but this is one scenario
where they are at the very least going to slow down.

>entering a side road, thus making the driver vulnerable to cars behind
>on the main road. Secondly, not all pedestrians know this new rule so
>some could just be standing on the corner waiting for the car to turn,
>or indeed standing on the corner having a chat!!

Yes, that's a more understandable niggle, but pedestrians requiring
stopping for (like ones at zebra crossing) have to be actively crossing
to qualify.

>I understand the point of safety for pedestrians and the hierarchy of
>road users but this one is flawed I feel

--
Roland Perry

[Roger Hayter]

On 11 Aug 2022 at 14:48:47 BST, "Penny Farthing" <alisons...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I think the rule (which has always been in the Highway Code but little
emphasised) is a good one. As you rightly imply observation of this rule will
require poeple on urban main roads to drive slower and further apart. This can
only be good thing.


--
Roger Hayter

[JNugent]

No, no...

Does the HC Rule 170 mention white lines within its message that the
operators of vehicles turning into a street must give way to pedestrians
who are already crossing?

You can check for yourself (of course) but I can tell you now that it
does *not*.

I am shocked at your apparent disregard for the safety of pedestrians.

Am I misreading you in some way?

[JNugent]

On 11/08/2022 02:48 pm, Penny Farthing wrote:

> Roland Perry wrote:
>> TMS320 <dr6...@gmail.com> remarked:

>>> JNugent wrote:
>>>>> TMS320 <dr6...@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>>>> Two lines when turning right. Yes, give way from whichever
>>>>>> direction a line is being approached. I don't see any similarity to
>>>>>> exiting a roundabout.

>>>> But "lines" are not relevant. The HC Rule makes no mention of them -
>>>> does it?
>
>>> It tells us what road lines mean and when we see a particular set we
>>> are informed that they mean "give way". There is no need for further
>>> explanation. When we encounter them, they also happen to give us
>>> spatial clues.

>> Yes, they are useful when giving way to other *vehicles*, the topic
>> however is giving way to *pedestrians*.
>

> This is a very good point as it would seem quite dangerous to give way to pedestrians waiting to cross at the exit of a roundabout. However, The new Highway Code Rule H2 (page 4) says "at a Junction (a roundabout is a junction) you should give way to pedestrians who are crossing or waiting to cross a road into which or from which you are turning.

As far as I am aware, it has never said anything else (and I have now
held a full licence for more than fifty years).

I have always ceded priority to pedestrians crossing roads into which I
was turning and that irrespective of whether the junction is
uncontrolled (ie, a normal side turning), traffic-lights or a roundabout.

> This is the one new rule I disagree with.

It isn't new.

> Even at plain straightforward junctions, it would mean stopping on a main before entering a side road, thus making the driver vulnerable to cars behind on the main road.

The law has *long* required it.

> Secondly, not all pedestrians know this new rule so some could just be standing on the corner waiting for the car to turn, or indeed standing on the corner having a chat!!

That happens. When it does, the vehicle user is free to go.

> I understand the point of safety for pedestrians and the hierarchy of road users but this one is flawed I feel

If so, it was flawed when the Highway Code was first written. There is
nothing to suggest that the relevant Rule has ever said anything different.

[JNugent]

On 12/08/2022 09:28 am, Jeff wrote:
>
>>>  Even at plain straightforward junctions, it would mean stopping on a
>>> main before entering a side road, thus making the driver vulnerable
>>> to cars behind on the main road.
>>
>> The law has *long* required it.
>>
>

> It has never been the 'law', and still isn't.
>
> What has changed is the addition in the HC of giving people waiting to
> crass priority to cross, in addition to those already crossing.

They already had that priority.

I passed my driving test over fifty years ago. The HC was already very
clear about priority for pedestrians already crossing a side street (or
any street into which a vehicle was turning) even then. It is how I was
taught to drive by a professional instructor. Neither do I have reason
to believe that this was a new rule in 1972.

[TMS320]

On 11/08/2022 14:06, JNugent wrote:
> On 11/08/2022 08:53 am, TMS320 wrote:
>> On 10/08/2022 15:20, JNugent wrote:
>>>> TMS320 <dr6...@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> Two lines when turning right. Yes, give way from whichever
>>>>> direction a line is being approached. I don't see any similarity to
>>>>> exiting a roundabout.
>>
>>> But "lines" are not relevant. The HC Rule makes no mention of them -
>>> does it?
>>
>> It tells us what road lines mean and when we see a particular set we
>> are informed that they mean "give way".  There is no need for further
>> explanation. When we encounter them, they also happen to give us
>> spatial clues.
>
> No, no...

Yes, yes. If you are turning right I assume you check your mirror to
make sure that someone is not overtaking you before you turn to cross
the centre line? If so, the line has a meaning for you.

> Does the HC Rule 170 mention white lines within its message that the
> operators of vehicles turning into a street must give way to pedestrians
> who are already crossing?

There is a difference between the long standing requirement to give way
to the pedestrian that has already started to cross and the new
requirement to give way, when turning, to a pedestrian that is following
a pavement with a break for a side road but has not started to cross. A
very significant difference.

The existing requirement does not require lines on the road. I am trying
to work out how the new requirement applies at a roundabout.
Specifically at a roundabout.

Painted lines provide an easy way to identify a main and minor road.
This is part of discussion. After a few threads I am now comfortable
with the idea that only the existing rule applies at roundabouts. The
new rule does not.

> You can check for yourself (of course) but I can tell you now that it
> does *not*.
>
> I am shocked at your apparent disregard for the safety of pedestrians.
>
> Am I misreading you in some way?

You're just following your usual habit of making assumptions out of
things that haven't been written.

[Roland Perry]

In message <td4saj$39f6b$8...@dont-email.me>, at 06:34:59 on Fri, 12 Aug
2022, Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> remarked:

>On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 16:39:55 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> Yes, there are drivers who wrongly predict the car in front isn't going
>> to stop (and thus rear-end them)
>

>If there is a pecking order of rules, then keeping your ****ing distance
>should be at the top.

Yes, very likely, but so few drivers understand.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <td53b0$eb0$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:34:40 on Fri, 12 Aug
2022, Jeff <je...@ukra.com> remarked:

>White lines are totally irrelevant.

Yes, we know that, when it comes to giving way to pedestrians in the
circumstances described.
--
Roland Perry

[Fredxx]

On 12/08/2022 07:34, Jethro_uk wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 16:39:55 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
>

>> Yes, there are drivers who wrongly predict the car in front isn't going
>> to stop (and thus rear-end them)
>

> If there is a pecking order of rules, then keeping your ****ing distance
> should be at the top.

I'm very rarely tailgated, and from experience from friends that do
complain, they would typically drive slowly for the prevailing
conditions and it would be far better for them to pull in and let
traffic pass.

I'm sure it's rarely less than a few vehicles.

[JNugent]

On 13/08/2022 09:55 am, Jeff wrote:

> On 12/08/2022 11:24, JNugent wrote:
>> On 12/08/2022 09:28 am, Jeff wrote:
>
>>>>>  Even at plain straightforward junctions, it would mean stopping on
>>>>> a main before entering a side road, thus making the driver
>>>>> vulnerable to cars behind on the main road.
>>
>>>> The law has *long* required it.
>
>>> It has never been the 'law', and still isn't.
>
>>> What has changed is the addition in the HC of giving people waiting
>>> to crass priority to cross, in addition to those already crossing.
>
>> They already had that priority.
>

> No, previous HC versions only gave priority to those already crossing,
> but not those waiting to cross.

Good luck with the mind-reading course!

I've lost count of the number of times I've stopped to let someone walk
out even onto a *zebra" crossing and they've just stood there, lost in a
world of their own and presumably hadn't even realised they were
standing right next to a crossing and facing across the road.