possibly OT - Cattle electric fence beside house
Ian
wire at the top of the fence separating our garden from the field as he
will be putting cattle in it. I am very concerned about this as I have a
3 year old daughter who loves to play on the garden and often plays near
the fence. I have spoken to the farmer and he has said it's up to me to
make sure my daughter is kept away. The power is a pulse and is supplied
from the mains (he had no idea on what voltage) but it can give a nasty
shock. I've tried to find out if there are any regulations about fitting
these but can't find anything. As stated, it may by slightly OT but
hopefully someone out there can point me in the right direction!
steve robinson
This is quite common in rural areas it helps to stop the cattle bursting through the
fence .
If its his fence on his land correctly signed then there is very little you can do
about it
You could of course put up your own fence on your own land to prevent your daughter
from touching his fence
The fence is non lethal it just gives you a nasty shock between 5000 and 9000 volts
The power output is around 5 joules on mains operated kit and will meet european
regulations
robert
normal mixed hedging in between) any boundary between your garden and a
field especially one that might have livestock in.
Ignoring all the issues of legal responsibilities etc it makes life
easier and your garden more secure.
Obviously there is a cost , the cost of some stock fencing and bare
root hedging from a commercial supplier shouldnt come to more than �2-�3
per meter. However if you have a very long boundary.......
Someone Else
It would seem that the farmer has a duty of are and should put a barrier
up to stop children touching it:-
Don Aitken
wrote:
The usual thing with these fences is that they are installed on the
owner's own land, in such a position that they cannot be touched
except by a person who is actually on that land. I'm not sure whether
this is a legal requirement, but it is certainly good practice. You
need to find out where the actual boundary is; if it is on your side
of the fence, even if only by a couple of feet, there may be nothing
you can do, other than put up your own parallel fence, although I'd be
inclined to have a word with the environmental health people in any
case.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
Paul Rudin
I'm not sure, but I assume that the Occupiers Liability Act would mean
the he (the farmer) is responsible if anyone was harmed by this
device. (That said, when I was a kid we used to grab hold of electric
fences for dares in the fields - and nobody suffered any lasting ill
effects.)
Big Les Wade
>Ian wrote:
>> I live next to a field and the farmer has just installed an electric
>>wire at the top of the fence separating our garden from the field as
>>he will be putting cattle in it. I am very concerned about this as I
>>have a 3 year old daughter who loves to play on the garden and often
>>plays near the fence. I have spoken to the farmer and he has said
>>it's up to me to make sure my daughter is kept away.
>>The power is a pulse and is supplied from the mains (he had no idea
>>on what voltage) but it can give a nasty shock. I've tried to find
>>out if there are any regulations about fitting these but can't find
>>anything. As stated, it may by slightly OT but hopefully someone out
>>there can point me in the right direction!
The farmer is behaving completely unreasonably. I do not know if he is
breaking the law but he is certainly risking injuring the child, who for
all we know might have a bad heart.
>On a purely practical basis - I would recommend double fencing ( with
>normal mixed hedging in between) any boundary between your garden and a
>field especially one that might have livestock in.
>
>Ignoring all the issues of legal responsibilities etc it makes life
>easier and your garden more secure.
>
>Obviously there is a cost , the cost of some stock fencing and bare
>root hedging from a commercial supplier shouldnt come to more than
>£2-£3 per meter. However if you have a very long boundary.......
In that case the OP should consider installing a special kind of
protective fence consisting of a car jump lead with one clip connected
to the farmer's live wire fence, and the other connected to a metal
stake driven deep into the earth.
--
Les
Criticising the government is not illegal, but often on investigation turns out
to be linked to serious offences.
Ste
> I live next to a field and the farmer has just installed an electric
> wire at the top of the fence separating our garden from the field as he
> will be putting cattle in it. I am very concerned about this as I have a
> 3 year old daughter who loves to play on the garden and often plays near
> the fence.
One anticipates she may play *near* the fence but will not regularly
play *with* the fence. Lol.
> I have spoken to the farmer and he has said it's up to me to
> make sure my daughter is kept away. The power is a pulse and is supplied
> from the mains (he had no idea on what voltage) but it can give a nasty
> shock. I've tried to find out if there are any regulations about fitting
> these but can't find anything. As stated, it may by slightly OT but
> hopefully someone out there can point me in the right direction!
On a serious note, I can understand your concern but these fences are
specifically designed to deter and not to kill. There's no reason to
think the fence poses any extraordinary risk - one imagines the
animals in the field would pose a greater risk of serious injury to
your daughter. One also imagines the fence is a good 4 or 5 foot high,
and hence the conductor will usually be out of reach of smaller
children. And as shocks go, it is hardly "nasty" - I've had whacks off
cattle fences as well as anti-intruder fences, and while the shocks
are unpleasant they do not cause damage. Also for your information
such fences generally operate at around 5,000 volts.
So to be quite honest, I really don't think this fence ought to be
cause for your concern, and given that it does not appear to cause any
risk to your daughter I can't see any grounds for requiring the farmer
to make good in any way.
steve robinson
The devices are not designed to harm
R
"Ian" <I...@invalidaddress.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9vidnWaD47Xvx5bX...@brightview.co.uk...
If there is adequate signage alerting would be trespassers or persons likely
to touch the fence then there is little that you can do.
By law, all electric fences must carry an approved warning sign, when they
are installed in proximity to the general public, for example footpaths,
public roads. Signs should be fixed to the fence posts, or to the fence
line.
Signs should be placed at the start and at the end of the fence if for
example, the fence runs alongside a public footpath and then at regular
intervals along the fence line. Typical spacing would be around 50m, but
many official bodies would prefer to see 10m spacing.
The maximum permitted distance between warning signs is 90m.
The farmer has a duty of care to employees and public alike. Therefore he is
required to make a risk assessment of the likely problems and resolve how to
tackle them should they occur.
You might request a copy of his to determine if he is acting responsibly and
within his legal rights to contain livestock.
Remember that livestock can be dangerous and unpredictable so any
preventative measures adjacent to your property would be required to reduce
a problem occurring should a person or child stray into their areas or them
into yours.
steve robinson
> robert <rob...@invalid.invalid> posted
> > Ian wrote:
> >> I live next to a field and the farmer has just installed an electric
> > > wire at the top of the fence separating our garden from the field as
> > > he will be putting cattle in it. I am very concerned about this as I
> > > have a 3 year old daughter who loves to play on the garden and often
> > > plays near the fence. I have spoken to the farmer and he has said
> > > it's up to me to make sure my daughter is kept away.
> > > The power is a pulse and is supplied from the mains (he had no idea
> > > on what voltage) but it can give a nasty shock. I've tried to find
> > > out if there are any regulations about fitting these but can't find
> > > anything. As stated, it may by slightly OT but hopefully someone out
> > > there can point me in the right direction!
>
> The farmer is behaving completely unreasonably. I do not know if he is
> breaking the law but he is certainly risking injuring the child, who for
> all we know might have a bad heart.
How is the farmer behaving unreasonably , these fences are designed to control
livestock , must be installed on his own land and are designed not to injure
Its the householders responsiblity to fence his own garden in ,
>
> > On a purely practical basis - I would recommend double fencing ( with
> > normal mixed hedging in between) any boundary between your garden and a
> > field especially one that might have livestock in.
Sensible apart from the mixed hedging , some farm animals will be attracted to this
, free food.
> >
> > Ignoring all the issues of legal responsibilities etc it makes life
> > easier and your garden more secure.
> >
> > Obviously there is a cost , the cost of some stock fencing and bare
> > root hedging from a commercial supplier shouldnt come to more than
> > £2-£3 per meter. However if you have a very long boundary.......
>
> In that case the OP should consider installing a special kind of
> protective fence consisting of a car jump lead with one clip connected
> to the farmer's live wire fence, and the other connected to a metal
> stake driven deep into the earth.
Most of the electric cattle fence units will detect this and alert the farmer who
could report the op to the police if these actions allowed the cattle to escape or
any damage was caused
If the op did this and the animals caused an accident the op not the farmer would be
responsible
Paul Rudin
> The devices are not designed to harm
The issue is whether there is a risk of causing harm, irrespective of
what the device is designed to do.
steve robinson
The cattle fences are required to meet strict EU guidlines for the safety of humans
that are likely to come into contact with them .
No point putting a fence up thats likely to kill your livestock either
They vary between 5000 and 9000 volts and vary in output from 1 joule to 5 joules
which is not very high
5 joules is 5 watts per second of energy
Ian Jackson
<no_...@nowhere.tv> writes
There are several large fields where the horses are free to roam and
graze, but across which are public footpaths.
Several years ago the owner(s) fenced off the footpaths (it must have
cost an absolute fortune), and also sub-divided the fields with 'white
ribbon' electric fencing to form 'moveable' grazing areas. At the same
time they ran ribbon along the fencing, within easy touching distance
(inches) of any walkers (including small children) using the footpaths.
There are no signs of any kind.
I did do a few quick tests using a portable radio (holding it near the
white ribbon, and hearing the 'clicks' increase greatly in volume), and
I came to the conclusion that the ribbon along the footpath was indeed
live (and not just there to fool the horses). However, I didn't push my
luck and physically touch it. Now that I've read some of the information
in this NG, I might investigate a bit further, and do a bit of
'stirring' if necessary!
--
Ian
Blah
Blah
> Several years ago the owner(s) fenced off the footpaths (it must have
> cost an absolute fortune), and also sub-divided the fields with 'white
> ribbon' electric fencing to form 'moveable' grazing areas. At the same
> time they ran ribbon along the fencing, within easy touching distance
> (inches) of any walkers (including small children) using the footpaths.
> There are no signs of any kind.
>
> I did do a few quick tests using a portable radio (holding it near the
> white ribbon, and hearing the 'clicks' increase greatly in volume), and
> I came to the conclusion that the ribbon along the footpath was indeed
> live (and not just there to fool the horses). However, I didn't push my
> luck and physically touch it. Now that I've read some of the information
> in this NG, I might investigate a bit further, and do a bit of
> 'stirring' if necessary!
Just investigate by touching - the shock is nothing!
Kids toys provide a similar effect - the handheld electric handshake
one, and also one where everyone holds on to a unit and is shocked whem
the get a question wrong.
Tom Burton
Having lived alongside one of these fences and having
grabbed/touched/urinated for various dares/ball retrieval/see who can hold
on the longest upon them many many times.
If your daughter touches the fence it will do little more than remind her
not to touch it again, don't panic, it's unpleasant, but far from nasty.
Indeed it will be a good deterrent to remind your daughter not to climb the
fence and play with the cattle which are most _definitely_ the most
dangerous part.
HTH
Tom
Stephen Mawson
"steve robinson" <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote in message
news:T3ZOl.28909$OO7....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> Paul Rudin wrote:
>
snip
>
> 5 joules is 5 watts per second of energy
Enter pedant mode: actually, 5 watts is 5 joules per second: exit pedant
mode.
Stephen
Cobber
>
> In that case the OP should consider installing a special kind of
> protective fence consisting of a car jump lead with one clip connected
> to the farmer's live wire fence, and the other connected to a metal
> stake driven deep into the earth.
>
Love it!
steve robinson
Not all of them , some run off mains ,
steve robinson
doesnt that work either way im sure it did when i was at school but that was 35
years ago
Stephen Mawson
No, the joule is a unit of energy whereas the watt, as a joule per second,
is a unit of power --that is, energy divided by time. A sixty watt bulb
uses sixty joules per second of energy.
Stephen
Bystander
fence? That way the animals will be kept in and the kids will be safe.
"nightjar" <cpb@
"Bystander" <byst...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:lqOdncIWnrBXBJHX...@pipex.net...
> What's wrong with setting the electrically charged wire two feet back from
> the actual fence? That way the animals will be kept in and the kids will
> be safe.
It is more expensive to put in the extra posts. the cattle are more able to
identify the fence as a barrier than a thin wire and getting shocks off
cattle fences is not a danger to kids. When I was a kid, it was an
interesting experiment my father introduced me to.
Colin Bignell
steve robinson
> What's wrong with setting the electrically charged wire two feet back from the
> actual fence? That way the animals will be kept in and the kids will be safe.
Because a new fence would need to be installed to carry the wire
Blah
around each field to encourage wildlife.
Martin
especially with electronic ignition. It's easy to kill someone with a
couple of C-cells if you know what you're doing, and that's just a torch
battery.
Plug yourself into my 1000 watt inverter if you want to see what a car
battery can /really/ do.
Blah
If the fence is good enough, electric is irrelevant.
Electric fences tend to be for short term boundaries, rather than
permanent farm/house boundaries.
Perhaps the farmer can't be asked to repair a fence properly, or he want
it to keep the people out of his farm!
Martin
No, if you only have 5 joules available, and dispatch them over 1/10
second then you're putting out 50 watts for that 1/10th of a second.
There's about to be a fusion experiment take place (Lawrence Livermore)
which is going to require something like 20 times the entire power
generating capacity of the US to run. It's not as bad as it seems,
because it'll only be needed for a couple of nano-seconds 500TW
Found a link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7972865.stm
>
R
"Ian Jackson" <ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2lOdalDH...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk...
Moveable paddocks are a good way of grass management.
If the tapes are within his boundaries with little or no chance of footpath
users touching them other than trespass then no sign is required.
Horses will stay away from a white tape or wire based on their first
experience with it at a usually young age. You can successfully leave the
power off in many situations once they have got to know what the tape means
and they'll stay in the area within it. Mind you, some Shetland ponies have
been known to escape and cause a riot............DAMHIKIJD.....OK!
Paul Rudin
Then you've got nothing to worry about in putting them up. Occupier's
Liability Act establishes a civil liability - not a criminal
offence.
But *if* someone was injured by the fence then you'd be liable for
damages.
A bit of googling suggests that it's common advice for people not to put
these up near public rights of way... so presumably someone thinks there
might be an issue.
Dave
> in this NG, I might investigate a bit further, and do a bit of
> 'stirring' if necessary!
You're going to stir up trouble and cause people inconvenience just
because you can? Nice.
Ian Jackson
writes
--
Ian
Mark Goodge
and typed:
>damages.
>
>A bit of googling suggests that it's common advice for people not to put
>these up near public rights of way... so presumably someone thinks there
>might be an issue.
A right of way is a slightly different situation, as rights of way are
generally not fenced off from the non-ROW section of the property they
cross - a right of way is a right of way across a property rather than
being a separate property adjacent to it. So there's no expectation
that there will be any other physical barrier between the ROW and the
electric fence, and hence people using the ROW may be caught unawares
by it. Also, people using the ROW may be unfamiliar with it, and with
its exact course, and hence be more likely to stray from it
inadvertantly.
Where an electric fence is adjacent to the boundary with another
private property, however, there is a reasonable expectation that the
owners of the other property will install their own fence or other
barrier to secure, where necessary, the boundaries of their property
and hence there would not normally be any intrusion from the other
property onto that where the electric fence is installed. And the
occupants of the other property will be aware of their own boundaries
and would not be expected to stray ono the fenced property, either
inadvertantly or deliberately.
Mark
--
Blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
Stuff: http://www.good-stuff.co.uk
"nightjar" <cpb@
"Paul Rudin" <paul....@rudin.co.uk> wrote in message
news:878wkyc...@rudin.co.uk...
Probably a issue of people complaining about it, rather than any real safety
concerns. I had a skip some 8 feet from a public footpath and had both the
Police and the Health and Safety Executive involved by a passer-by who
decided to go skip diving and pricked his finger.
Colin Bignell
steve robinson
> really do.
Its not the voltage that kills its the power , these things are very low powered
steve robinson
With cattle its usally to stop the animals either damaging the fence , being hand
fed by the publc or to stop them munching something they shouldnt outside the fence
line ( grazing control )
RobertL
> robert <rob...@invalid.invalid> posted
>
> >Ian wrote:
> >> I live next to a field and the farmer has just installed an electric
> >>wire at the top of the fence separating our garden from the field as
> >>he will be putting cattle in it. I am very concerned about this as I
> >>have a 3 year old daughter who loves to play on the garden and often
> >>plays near the fence. I have spoken to the farmer and he has said
> >>it's up to me to make sure my daughter is kept away.
> >>The power is a pulse and is supplied from the mains (he had no idea
> >>on what voltage) but it can give a nasty shock. I've tried to find
> >>out if there are any regulations about fitting these but can't find
> >>anything. As stated, it may by slightly OT but hopefully someone out
> >>there can point me in the right direction!
>
> breaking the law but he is certainly risking injuring the child, who for
> all we know might have a bad heart.
>
> >On a purely practical basis - I would recommend double fencing ( with
> >normal mixed hedging in between) any boundary between your garden and a
> >field especially one that might have livestock in.
>
> >Ignoring all the issues of legal responsibilities etc it makes life
> >easier and your garden more secure.
>
> >Obviously there is a cost , the cost of some stock fencing and bare
> >root hedging from a commercial supplier shouldnt come to more than
> >£2-£3 per meter. However if you have a very long boundary.......
>
> In that case the OP should consider installing a special kind of
> protective fence consisting of a car jump lead with one clip connected
> to the farmer's live wire fence, and the other connected to a metal
> stake driven deep into the earth.
then she'll have cows in her garden.
Robert
RobertL
You can easily kill yourself from a 240 Volt inverter running on a
12V car battery.
Robert
steve robinson
>
> "Paul Rudin" <paul....@rudin.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:878wkyc...@rudin.co.uk...
> > "steve robinson" <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> writes:
> >
> >> Paul Rudin wrote:
> > >
> >>> "steve robinson" <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> writes:
> > > >
> >>> > The devices are not designed to harm
> > > >
> >>> The issue is whether there is a risk of causing harm, irrespective of
> >>> what the device is designed to do.
> > >
> >> The cattle fences are required to meet strict EU guidlines for the safety
> >> of humans
> >> that are likely to come into contact with them .
> > >
> >> No point putting a fence up thats likely to kill your livestock either
> > >
> >> They vary between 5000 and 9000 volts and vary in output from 1 joule to
> >> 5 joules
> >> which is not very high
> > >
> >> 5 joules is 5 watts per second of energy
> >
> > Then you've got nothing to worry about in putting them up. Occupier's
> > Liability Act establishes a civil liability - not a criminal
> > offence.
> >
> > But if someone was injured by the fence then you'd be liable for
> > damages.
> >
> > A bit of googling suggests that it's common advice for people not to put
> > these up near public rights of way... so presumably someone thinks there
> > might be an issue.
>
> Probably a issue of people complaining about it, rather than any real safety
> concerns. I had a skip some 8 feet from a public footpath and had both the
> Police and the Health and Safety Executive involved by a passer-by who
> decided to go skip diving and pricked his finger.
>
> Colin Bignell
Yes i had a similar problem , he got done for theft in the end
Martin
> Big Les Wade wrote:
>
>> robert <rob...@invalid.invalid> posted
>>> Ian wrote:
>>>> I live next to a field and the farmer has just installed an electric
>>>> wire at the top of the fence separating our garden from the field as
>>>> he will be putting cattle in it. I am very concerned about this as I
>>>> have a 3 year old daughter who loves to play on the garden and often
>>>> plays near the fence. I have spoken to the farmer and he has said
>>>> it's up to me to make sure my daughter is kept away.
>>>> The power is a pulse and is supplied from the mains (he had no idea
>>>> on what voltage) but it can give a nasty shock. I've tried to find
>>>> out if there are any regulations about fitting these but can't find
>>>> anything. As stated, it may by slightly OT but hopefully someone out
>>>> there can point me in the right direction!
>> The farmer is behaving completely unreasonably. I do not know if he is
>> breaking the law but he is certainly risking injuring the child, who for
>> all we know might have a bad heart.
>
> livestock , must be installed on his own land and are designed not to injure
>
> Its the householders responsiblity to fence his own garden in ,
>
>
>
>
>
>>> On a purely practical basis - I would recommend double fencing ( with
>>> normal mixed hedging in between) any boundary between your garden and a
>>> field especially one that might have livestock in.
>
> , free food.
hmmmm
That just gave me a thought.
If the garden owner were to plant a few yews I'll bet the farmer would
move the electric fence inland.
Blah
Ok, MOST are 12v battery - its a bit hard to get mains in the middle of
a field.
Blah
> Blah wrote:
>> Paul Rudin wrote:
>>> "steve robinson" <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> writes:
>>>
>>>> The devices are not designed to harm
>>>
>>> The issue is whether there is a risk of causing harm, irrespective of
>>> what the device is designed to do.
>>>
>> There's NO risk of any harm, given they run off a 12v car battery!
>>
> So do car spark plugs, I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end,
> especially with electronic ignition. It's easy to kill someone with a
> couple of C-cells if you know what you're doing, and that's just a torch
> battery.
Cough, bollocks, cough.
>
> Plug yourself into my 1000 watt inverter if you want to see what a car
> battery can /really/ do.
>
err, nothing?
1000 watts at 240 volts = 4 anps?
You might might make my bollocks sweat a lickle more, but dead - don't
think so....
steve robinson
The op did say they were going to be run off mains , the mains operated ones can run
considerable distances these days and give a bit more ouch factor which large
animals like cows need .
steve robinson
> "steve robinson" <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> writes:
>
> > Paul Rudin wrote:
> >
> >> "steve robinson" <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> writes:
> >>
> >> > The devices are not designed to harm
> >>
> >> The issue is whether there is a risk of causing harm, irrespective of
> >> what the device is designed to do.
> >
> > The cattle fences are required to meet strict EU guidlines for the safety of
> > humans that are likely to come into contact with them .
> >
> > No point putting a fence up thats likely to kill your livestock either
> >
> > They vary between 5000 and 9000 volts and vary in output from 1 joule to 5
> > joules which is not very high
> >
> > 5 joules is 5 watts per second of energy
>
> Then you've got nothing to worry about in putting them up. Occupier's
> Liability Act establishes a civil liability - not a criminal
> offence.
>
> But if someone was injured by the fence then you'd be liable for
> damages.
>
> A bit of googling suggests that it's common advice for people not to put
> these up near public rights of way... so presumably someone thinks there
> might be an issue.
Yes idiots keep touching it to see if its live ( fun to watch though )
Big Les Wade
>Where an electric fence is adjacent to the boundary with another
>private property, however, there is a reasonable expectation
Who says, or have you just invented this?
>that the owners of the other property will install their own fence or
>other barrier to secure, where necessary, the boundaries of their
>property
The boundaries of their property were already secured by the previously
installed fence.
>and hence there would not normally be any intrusion from the other
>property onto that where the electric fence is installed. And the
>occupants of the other property will be aware of their own boundaries
>and would not be expected to stray ono the fenced property, either
>inadvertantly or deliberately.
There is no question of the OP or his child intruding onto the other
property. The farmer is electrifying the boundary fence between the two
properties. If we going to talk about "reasonable expectations", the
occupier of a property surely has a "reasonable expectation" that he
will be able to touch the boundary fence of his property without risking
severe pain and possible serious injury.
--
Les
Criticising the government is not illegal, but often on investigation turns out
to be linked to serious offences.
John Anderton
<ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>However, I didn't push my
>luck and physically touch it.
I think you really should. It sounds like you're frightened by
something that is really not a cause for concern. As others have said,
electric fences are specifically designed to cause pain but no lasting
damage.
You could even see this as a learning experience for your daughter.
Make it quite plain to her that if she touches the white tape, it will
hurt her. If she does touch it, she'll realise that "Daddy is right"
which may well help in future (e.g. when you tell her not to play on a
busy road)
Cheers,
John
bod43
wrote:
> Stephen Mawson wrote:
>
> > "steve robinson" <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:T3ZOl.28909$OO7....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> > > Paul Rudin wrote:
>
> > snip
>
>
> > mode.
>
> > Stephen
>
> doesnt that work either way im sure it did when i was at school but that was 35
> years ago
As already discussed - no.
That's like saying miles per hour is the same as
hours per mile. Or perhaps clearer, even to the most
dedicated non mathematicians - pounds per year is
equivalent to years per pound.
That would be a fine salary for a lawyer 100,000 years
per pound:)
Blah
I hadn't noticed that the OP said mains, but so he did. However he
doesn't say the farmer said that case was, i kinda think he's googled
that bit and beefed up his case a bit.
Blah
steve robinson
> Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> posted
> > Where an electric fence is adjacent to the boundary with another private
> > property, however, there is a reasonable expectation
>
> Who says, or have you just invented this?
>
> > that the owners of the other property will install their own fence or other
> > barrier to secure, where necessary, the boundaries of their property
>
> The boundaries of their property were already secured by the previously installed
> fence.
You fail to mention its the farmers fence , securing the farmers land , not the ops
fence securing the ops land
The op has no right to expect the farmer to secure his property for him
>
> > and hence there would not normally be any intrusion from the other property onto
> > that where the electric fence is installed. And the occupants of the other
> > property will be aware of their own boundaries and would not be expected to
> > stray ono the fenced property, either inadvertantly or deliberately.
>
> There is no question of the OP or his child intruding onto the other property. The
> farmer is electrifying the boundary fence between the two properties. If we going
> to talk about "reasonable expectations", the occupier of a property surely has a
> "reasonable expectation" that he will be able to touch the boundary fence of his
> property without risking severe pain and possible serious injury.
Correct however its not the boundary fence of his property its the farmers fence on
the farmers land
The farmer therefore should reasonably expect the op to keep his children away from
the fence , how he does this is entirely his own responsiblity possibly installing
a boundary fence on his own property might solve the problem.
The farmer would not be allowed to attach anything to the ops fence
The farmer know doubt is making sure his cattle do not stray into the ops garden
which would cause hundreds if not thousands of pounds worth of damage and quite
possibly injure the occupants including the young children that live there
Ian Jackson
writes
remember it. But a few mA through your chest might kill you.
--
Ian
Blah
> Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> posted
>> Where an electric fence is adjacent to the boundary with another
>> private property, however, there is a reasonable expectation
>
> Who says, or have you just invented this?
>
>> that the owners of the other property will install their own fence or
>> other barrier to secure, where necessary, the boundaries of their
>> property
>
> The boundaries of their property were already secured by the previously
> installed fence.
>
>> and hence there would not normally be any intrusion from the other
>> property onto that where the electric fence is installed. And the
>> occupants of the other property will be aware of their own boundaries
>> and would not be expected to stray ono the fenced property, either
>> inadvertantly or deliberately.
>
> There is no question of the OP or his child intruding onto the other
> property. The farmer is electrifying the boundary fence between the two
> properties. If we going to talk about "reasonable expectations", the
> occupier of a property surely has a "reasonable expectation" that he
> will be able to touch the boundary fence
Depends whose fence it is, if it was MY fence just inside the actual
boundary fence I wouldn't want anyone messing with it.
Percy Picacity
news:7741h5F...@mid.individual.net:
Electricity kills by stopping the heart beating, not generally by
incineration (except in the case of lightning or power lines). A few
tens of milliamps can be enough, and 100 milliamps at 50Hz is more
likely than not to kill if between hands. The energy needed is from
about 20 to 500 Joules, and the C cells can supply this with ease.
Note, emergency defibrillators have quite small batteries. Of
course, not every shock does stop the heart, but it is not easy to
predict which will, and it depends on, among other things, when in
relation to the heartbeat it occurs.
--
Percy Picacity
Peter Crosland
>> > >
>> > > The issue is whether there is a risk of causing harm, irrespective of
>> > > what the device is designed to do.
>> > >
>> > There's NO risk of any harm, given they run off a 12v car battery!
>> >
>> So do car spark plugs, I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end,
>> especially with
>> electronic ignition. It's easy to kill someone with a couple of C-cells
>> if you
>> know what you're doing, and that's just a torch battery.
>>
>> Plug yourself into my 1000 watt inverter if you want to see what a car
>> battery can
>> really do.
>
> Its not the voltage that kills its the power , these things are very low
> powered
The old adage was "It is volts jolts but mils (milliamps) that kill" which
is the same thing really.
Peter Crosland
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> posted
>>Where an electric fence is adjacent to the boundary with another
>>private property, however, there is a reasonable expectation
>
>Who says, or have you just invented this?
It's the reasoning behind the previous comment that electric fences
are discouraged next to public rights of way, but not to other
property boundaries.
>>that the owners of the other property will install their own fence or
>>other barrier to secure, where necessary, the boundaries of their
>>property
>
>The boundaries of their property were already secured by the previously
>installed fence.
Not by the OP's fence, though.
>>and hence there would not normally be any intrusion from the other
>>property onto that where the electric fence is installed. And the
>>occupants of the other property will be aware of their own boundaries
>>and would not be expected to stray ono the fenced property, either
>>inadvertantly or deliberately.
>
>There is no question of the OP or his child intruding onto the other
>property. The farmer is electrifying the boundary fence between the two
>properties. If we going to talk about "reasonable expectations", the
>occupier of a property surely has a "reasonable expectation" that he
>will be able to touch the boundary fence of his property without risking
>severe pain and possible serious injury.
Electric fences do not cause severe pain and possible serious injury.
The child would be in far more danger from barbed wire.
John Stumbles
> The devices are not designed to harm
Actually I'd bet the manufacturers' insurance comapanies' last dollar
they're actually designed not to harm.
--
John Stumbles
I'm more non-competitive than you
F Murtz
240 volts ac wont kill you. why do'nt. you connect yourself to the mains
at home and try,
steve robinson
> In message <7741h5F...@mid.individual.net>, Blah <Bl...@hotmail.com> writes
> > Martin wrote:
> > > Blah wrote:
> > > > Paul Rudin wrote:
> >>>>"steve robinson" <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > > The devices are not designed to harm
> > > > >
> > > > > The issue is whether there is a risk of causing harm, irrespective of
> > > > > what the device is designed to do.
> > > > >
> > > > There's NO risk of any harm, given they run off a 12v car battery!
> > > >
> > > So do car spark plugs, I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end, especially
> > > with electronic ignition. It's easy to kill someone with a couple of C-cells
> > > if you know what you're doing, and that's just a torch battery.
> >
> > Cough, bollocks, cough.
> > > Plug yourself into my 1000 watt inverter if you want to see what a car
> > > battery can really do.
> > >
> >
> > err, nothing?
> >
> > 1000 watts at 240 volts = 4 anps?
> > You might might make my bollocks sweat a lickle more, but dead - don't think
> > so....
> >
> 4 amps through your bollocks wouldn't kill you, but you'd certainly remember it.
> But a few mA through your chest might kill you.
yes if you stood in a bucket of salt water
Big Les Wade
>Big Les Wade wrote:
>
>> Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> posted
>> > Where an electric fence is adjacent to the boundary with another private
>> > property, however, there is a reasonable expectation
>>
>> Who says, or have you just invented this?
>>
>> > that the owners of the other property will install their own fence or other
>> > barrier to secure, where necessary, the boundaries of their property
>>
>> The boundaries of their property were already secured by the
>>previously installed
>> fence.
>
>You fail to mention its the farmers fence , securing the farmers land ,
>not the ops
>fence securing the ops land
We do not know who the fence belongs to. But even if it belongs to the
farmer, it is securing the boundaries, so there is no legal need for the
OP to put up his own fence.
>
>The op has no right to expect the farmer to secure his property for him
>>
>> > and hence there would not normally be any intrusion from the other
>> >property onto
>> > that where the electric fence is installed. And the occupants of the other
>> > property will be aware of their own boundaries and would not be expected to
>> > stray ono the fenced property, either inadvertantly or deliberately.
>>
>> There is no question of the OP or his child intruding onto the other
>>property. The
>> farmer is electrifying the boundary fence between the two properties.
>>If we going
>> to talk about "reasonable expectations", the occupier of a property
>>surely has a
>> "reasonable expectation" that he will be able to touch the boundary
>>fence of his
>> property without risking severe pain and possible serious injury.
>
>Correct however its not the boundary fence of his property its the
>farmers fence on
>the farmers land
Nope. We don't know that. It may or may not be the farmer's fence; and
even if it is his fence, it may be on the boundary rather than on his
side; and even if it is on his side, he is placing a dangerous hazard
within easy reach of a small child.
steve robinson
> Blah <Bl...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:7741h5F...@mid.individual.net:
>
> > Martin wrote:
> >> Blah wrote:
> >>> Paul Rudin wrote:
> >>>> "steve robinson" <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> writes:
> > > > >
> >>>>> The devices are not designed to harm
> > > > >
> >>>> The issue is whether there is a risk of causing harm,
> >>>> irrespective of what the device is designed to do.
> > > > >
> >>> There's NO risk of any harm, given they run off a 12v car
> >>> battery!
> > > >
> >> So do car spark plugs, I wouldn't want to be on the receiving
> >> end, especially with electronic ignition. It's easy to kill
> >> someone with a couple of C-cells if you know what you're doing,
> >> and that's just a torch battery.
> >
> > Cough, bollocks, cough.
> >>
> >> Plug yourself into my 1000 watt inverter if you want to see what
> >> a car battery can really do.
> >>
> >
> > err, nothing?
> >
> > 1000 watts at 240 volts = 4 anps?
> > You might might make my bollocks sweat a lickle more, but dead -
> > don't think so....
> >
> >
> Electricity kills by stopping the heart beating, not generally by
> incineration (except in the case of lightning or power lines). A few
> tens of milliamps can be enough, and 100 milliamps at 50Hz is more
> likely than not to kill if between hands. The energy needed is from
> about 20 to 500 Joules, and the C cells can supply this with ease.
> Note, emergency defibrillators have quite small batteries. Of
> course, not every shock does stop the heart, but it is not easy to
> predict which will, and it depends on, among other things, when in
> relation to the heartbeat it occurs.
the electric cattle fences only kick out max about 6 joules , most a lot less
Defibrillators are charged from batterys or mains , the energy to the paddles comes
from capacitors within the machine not directly from the batteries
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>The farmer know doubt is making sure his cattle do not stray into the ops garden
>which would cause hundreds if not thousands of pounds worth of damage and quite
>possibly injure the occupants including the young children that live there
Indeed. The whole issue seems to me to be caused by a fundamental
misunderstanding by the OP of the relative risks here. Cattle are not
gentle, fluffy, harmless creatures - while they may be fairly placid
and docile as a general rule, they are big enough and strong enough to
cause serious damage to a domestic garden or to a human (especially a
child) if provoked or tempted by an attractive source of food. If I
lived next door to a field in which cattle were grazed, I'd want the
farmer to take whatever steps were necessary to ensure that they
couldn't get into my garden or lean over my fence and eat my plants.
An electric fence on the farmer's property would be a very good
solution to that problem, from my perspective.
John Stumbles
> RobertL wrote:
>> You can easily kill yourself from a 240 Volt inverter running on a
>> 12V car battery.
> No you can't...
OK, why don't you grab the live and neutral output leads from an inverter,
one in each hand, and prove it?
--
John Stumbles
Life is nature's way of keeping meat fresh
Blah
Blah
> steve robinson <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> posted
>
> Nope. We don't know that. It may or may not be the farmer's fence; and
> even if it is his fence, it may be on the boundary rather than on his
> side; and even if it is on his side, he is placing a dangerous hazard
> within easy reach of a small child.
>
Its NOT a dangerous hazard, get real.
John Stumbles
> There's NO risk of any harm, given they run off a 12v car battery!
So does electronic ignition in cars and the modern high-energy systems can
kill, AIUI. In fact the electronic flash in a disposable camera,
which runs off a couple of AA duracells, can kill. At the opposite extreme
you can get a painful but non-lethal shock from a source of tens of
thousands of volts, such as static build-up from your car or walking on a
synthetic carpet. Or an electric cattle fence.
Voltage is what makes current flow through something (such as you) against
that something's electrical resistance. Current is what does the damage to
you: anything over a few hundredths of an Ampere (i.e. a few tens of
milliAmps) can kill, depending how long it's sustained for. Or as the
sparks say: "it's the Volts that jolts/it's the mills that kills" :-)
--
John Stumbles
I used to think the brain was the most interesting part of the body
- until I realised what was telling me that
Tim S
> err, nothing?
>
> 1000 watts at 240 volts = 4 anps?
> You might might make my bollocks sweat a lickle more, but dead - don't
> think so....
Absolutely not true.
Blah
> On Fri, 15 May 2009 12:10:15 +0100, Blah wrote:
>
>> RobertL wrote:
>>> You can easily kill yourself from a 240 Volt inverter running on a
>>> 12V car battery.
>
>> No you can't...
>
> OK, why don't you grab the live and neutral output leads from an inverter,
> one in each hand, and prove it?
>
by an inverter?
Ste
> Martin wrote:
> > Blah wrote:
> >> Paul Rudin wrote:
> >>> "steve robinson" <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> writes:
>
> >>>> The devices are not designed to harm
>
> >>> The issue is whether there is a risk of causing harm, irrespective of
> >>> what the device is designed to do.
>
>
> > especially with electronic ignition. It's easy to kill someone with a
> > couple of C-cells if you know what you're doing, and that's just a torch
> > battery.
>
> Cough, bollocks, cough.
>
>
>
> > Plug yourself into my 1000 watt inverter if you want to see what a car
>
> err, nothing?
>
> 1000 watts at 240 volts = 4 anps?
> You might might make my bollocks sweat a lickle more, but dead - don't
> think so....
Haha! 4 amps is MORE than enough to kill a person. And a 12volt car
battery contains more than enough stored energy to burn a person quite
severely if not kill them outright, although the low voltage at the
battery terminals makes that somewhat difficult under normal
circumstances.
And if you don't believe me, perhaps you should try short circuiting a
car battery - perhaps with your arsehole on one of the terminals, and
your tongue on the other. Lol.
steve robinson
> steve robinson <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> posted
> > Big Les Wade wrote:
> >
> >>Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> posted
> >>> Where an electric fence is adjacent to the boundary with another private
> >>> property, however, there is a reasonable expectation
> > >
> > > Who says, or have you just invented this?
> > >
> >>> that the owners of the other property will install their own fence or other
> >>> barrier to secure, where necessary, the boundaries of their property
> > >
> > > The boundaries of their property were already secured by the previously
> > > installed fence.
> >
> > You fail to mention its the farmers fence , securing the farmers land , not the
> > ops fence securing the ops land
>
> We do not know who the fence belongs to. But even if it belongs to the farmer, it
> is securing the boundaries, so there is no legal need for the OP to put up his own
> fence.
>
Correct , however if the op doesnt like the fact the farmer intends too electrify
his fence he has two options , like it or lump it
> >
> > The op has no right to expect the farmer to secure his property for him
> > >
> >>> and hence there would not normally be any intrusion from the other >property
> onto >>> that where the electric fence is installed. And the occupants of the other
> >>> property will be aware of their own boundaries and would not be expected to
> >>> stray ono the fenced property, either inadvertantly or deliberately.
> > >
> > > There is no question of the OP or his child intruding onto the other property.
> > > The farmer is electrifying the boundary fence between the two properties. If
> > > we going to talk about "reasonable expectations", the occupier of a property
> > > surely has a "reasonable expectation" that he will be able to touch the
> > > boundary fence of his property without risking severe pain and possible
> > > serious injury.
> >
> > Correct however its not the boundary fence of his property its the farmers fence
> > on the farmers land
>
> Nope. We don't know that. It may or may not be the farmer's fence; and even if it
> is his fence, it may be on the boundary rather than on his side; and even if it is
> on his side, he is placing a dangerous hazard within easy reach of a small child.
So the op should fence it in
Look at it from another perpective if i remove my gate and fences (including
boundary fences which i own) around my front garden and my next door neighbours
young daughter runs through the gardens into the road and gets squashed whos fault
is it .
Its certainly not mine i have no duty to fence her into her parents property or
advise them of my intentions to remove my fencing, its up to her parents to protect
her .
Obvously im not such an arsehole to do that
Steve Walker
So you don't think there would be any problem if I put one on my front lawn,
by the footpath to the village school?
Tim S
> The claim was about an invertor, not the mains.
Irrellevant.
Unless the 230/240V inverter is incapable of supplying more than 100-ish mA,
then both sources are equally dangerous from a lethal shock perspective.
The mains of course is far more dangerous from the
bloody-big-bang-when-you-short-it-out perspective, but that's not what
we're discussing.
Cheers
Tim
Tim S
> John Stumbles wrote:
Sure, if you provide a cite that poking you in the eyes hurts like hell.
Hint - the smallest currently available 230/240V inverter I can find on the
web is 120W, about 0.5A. As I have given a cite that a good deal less
current can kill, I do not need evidence to verify that inverters can
easily kill as well as direct mains.
Cheers
Tim
Old Codger
most inverters for car batteries can provide more than 25watts
continuously. Any inverter that can supply 25W at 240V can kill.
--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field
What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]
Old Codger
240V at 100 mA between hands will kill and car inverters are quite
capable of supplying that. One hand on the car body and the other
touching the live wire from the inverter and poof!
Old Codger
> On Thu, 14 May 2009 19:35:04 +0100, Ian Jackson
> <ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> However, I didn't push my
>> luck and physically touch it.
>
> I think you really should. It sounds like you're frightened by
> something that is really not a cause for concern. As others have said,
> electric fences are specifically designed to cause pain but no lasting
> damage.
>
> You could even see this as a learning experience for your daughter.
> Make it quite plain to her that if she touches the white tape, it will
> hurt her. If she does touch it, she'll realise that "Daddy is right"
> which may well help in future (e.g. when you tell her not to play on a
> busy road)
As long as it is not shorted out by grass on that day. :-)
Blah
Close to or equal to zero?
And if you are trying to imply that having been shocked the kids run
into the road, and get run over by a car - there is more chance that a
dog barking would scare the kids into the road, yet they arn't classed
as a hazzard.
Old Codger
A plastic bucket?
A few milliamps for a few milliseconds through your chest would almost
certainly kill you, whatever you were standing in or on. Depending on
the source though you *might* need to be standing in salt water, on the
earth or in a metal bucket, in order to get those few milliamps.
Old Codger
Ian Jackson
<t...@dionic.net> writes
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?criteria=inverter&source=15
This 3 'killerwatt' beast would certainly kill you!:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=226535
And even this tiddler could:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=224979
120W at 240V is 500mA - at least 5 times more than necessary to see you
off.
--
Ian
Steve Walker
No, my line of thought was the Police or Council would demand it's removal,
regardless of how many of your posts I printed off and showed them.
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>Blah wrote:
No problem in the sense of it being dangerous, no. But you'd still
have the problem of uninformed people complaining about it, of course.
steve robinson
> John Anderton wrote:
> > On Thu, 14 May 2009 19:35:04 +0100, Ian Jackson
> ><ianREMOVET...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > However, I didn't push my luck and physically touch it.
> >
> > I think you really should. It sounds like you're frightened by
> > something that is really not a cause for concern. As others have said,
> > electric fences are specifically designed to cause pain but no lasting
> > damage.
> >
> > You could even see this as a learning experience for your daughter.
> > Make it quite plain to her that if she touches the white tape, it will
> > hurt her. If she does touch it, she'll realise that "Daddy is right"
> > which may well help in future (e.g. when you tell her not to play on a
> > busy road)
>
> As long as it is not shorted out by grass on that day. :-)
Most of the modern electric fence systems are not affected by plants shorting them
out , infact 5000 volts is enough to kill most plant life
Roland Perry
May 2009, Steve Walker <spam...@beeb.net> remarked:
>my line of thought was the Police or Council would demand it's removal,
I demand the removal of the spurious apostrophe! ------------^
--
Roland Perry
Blah
paranoid.
Anyway, I'd like to see the test case
Blah
>>
>> And if you don't believe me, perhaps you should try short circuiting a
>> car battery - perhaps with your arsehole on one of the terminals, and
>> your tongue on the other. Lol.
>>
> That would give quite a high resistance "short". :-)
>
How can you have a high resistance short, the two being opposite terms.
Blah
> Blah wrote:
>> The claim was about an invertor, not the mains.
>>
> Depends on the current (power) available from the inverter. I suspect
> most inverters for car batteries can provide more than 25watts
> continuously. Any inverter that can supply 25W at 240V can kill.
>
I'm still waiting for a cite of someone who has actually died from
inverter electrocution, rather than 'you can' claims.
Big Les Wade
>Steve Walker wrote:
>> So you don't think there would be any problem if I put one on my
>>front lawn, by the footpath to the village school?
>>
>Nope - how many people have died from electric fences?
>Close to or equal to zero?
Don't know, but plenty of people have been *hurt* by electric fences.
You presumably wouldn't argue that a guy found torturing children wasn't
doing any harm because he didn't actually kill them? Well here the
farmer is doing something that he knows has a significant risk of
causing severe pain to a child. And don't tell me the pain isn't severe.
It's designed to hurt a cow enough to keep it away from the fence.
And that's temporarily ignoring the fact that plenty of people with bad
hearts have been killed by low-current electric shocks from other
sources.
Completely unreasonable.
--
Les
Criticising the government is not illegal, but often on investigation turns out
to be linked to serious offences.
Old Codger
How much current do you think that "short" is going to cause to flow?
Old Codger
Old Codger
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>Blah <Bl...@hotmail.com> posted
>>Steve Walker wrote:
>>> So you don't think there would be any problem if I put one on my
>>>front lawn, by the footpath to the village school?
>>>
>>Nope - how many people have died from electric fences?
>>Close to or equal to zero?
>
>Don't know, but plenty of people have been *hurt* by electric fences.
>You presumably wouldn't argue that a guy found torturing children wasn't
>doing any harm because he didn't actually kill them? Well here the
>farmer is doing something that he knows has a significant risk of
>causing severe pain to a child. And don't tell me the pain isn't severe.
The pain isn't severe. Your comment leads me to assume that you've
never touched an electric fence; it's certainly startling if
unexpected, but it's no more severe than, say, mildly stubbing your
toe or clipping your knuckles on the door of the car.
>It's designed to hurt a cow enough to keep it away from the fence.
It isn't designed to hurt, it's designed to startle. Animals are much
more sensitive to that sort of thing than humans; it's something
beyond their undertsanding and thus they quickly develop an excessive
fear of electric fences (which, from the farmer's point of view, is
exactly what is needed). It's the electronic equivalent of creeping up
behind someone and popping a balloon near their head without them
anticipating it; it will make them jump but it won't do any actual
damage.
>And that's temporarily ignoring the fact that plenty of people with bad
>hearts have been killed by low-current electric shocks from other
>sources.
I'm not aware of any deaths from agricultural electric fencing. If you
believe otherwise, please provide the appropriate references.
Having said that, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n1pSHzdahc is quite
amusing.
Tim S
> Old Codger wrote:
Bloody hell.
How many cites do you think you could find for "death by having hole dilled
through head with one of these:
http://industrialfabonline.com/attachments/Image/Laser1.jpg "
But I have little doubt that it would do you no good at all...
Humbug
<st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote:
> know doubt
That's the best typo that I've seen for a long time :-)
--
Humbug
Humbug
<st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote:
>Stephen Mawson wrote:
>
>>
>> "steve robinson" <st...@colevalleyinteriors.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:T3ZOl.28909$OO7....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>> > Paul Rudin wrote:
>> >
>> snip
>> >
>> > 5 joules is 5 watts per second of energy
>>
>> Enter pedant mode: actually, 5 watts is 5 joules per second: exit pedant
>> mode.
>>
>> Stephen
>
>doesnt that work either way im sure it did when i was at school but that was 35
>years ago
"Change the side, change the sign"
Didn't you learn that at school?
5W = 5J/s
5J = 5Ws
--
Humbug
(who learnt this round about 1968, and suspects that it's unlikely to
have changed since)
Mike
>
> 240V at 100 mA between hands will kill and car inverters are quite
> capable of supplying that. One hand on the car body and the other
> touching the live wire from the inverter and poof!
>
neutral terminal of a piece of equipment I was "playing with". Unfortunately, I
put the other thumb on the live terminal. :-( I was thrown across the room but,
unless I'm dead without realizing it, I'm living proof that it doesn't always kill.
--
Mike
Blah
> Blah wrote:
>> John Stumbles wrote:
>>> On Fri, 15 May 2009 12:10:15 +0100, Blah wrote:
>>>
>>>> RobertL wrote:
>>>>> You can easily kill yourself from a 240 Volt inverter running on a
>>>>> 12V car battery.
>>>
>>>> No you can't...
>>>
>>> OK, why don't you grab the live and neutral output leads from an
>>> inverter,
>>> one in each hand, and prove it?
>>>
>> How about you provide a cite showing just one person who has been
>> killed by an inverter?
>>
> I don't doubt it has happened but a cite is not readily available.
Google is thataway, find one or your 'don't doubt' is worthless.
>
> 240V at 100 mA between hands will kill and car inverters are quite
> capable of supplying that. One hand on the car body and the other
> touching the live wire from the inverter and poof!
>
Cite.
Everyone seems to be missing one point.
Blah
> Blah wrote:
>> Old Codger wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> And if you don't believe me, perhaps you should try short circuiting a
>>>> car battery - perhaps with your arsehole on one of the terminals, and
>>>> your tongue on the other. Lol.
>>>>
>>> That would give quite a high resistance "short". :-)
>>>
>>
>> How can you have a high resistance short, the two being opposite terms.
>>
> How else would you describe "short circuiting a car battery - perhaps
> with your arsehole on one of the terminals, and your tongue on the other."
>
> How much current do you think that "short" is going to cause to flow?
>
circuit' is a low resistance.
Rod
fences can be dangerous. However, it is obvious that much of the danger
is present due to doing silly things like supplying mains directly, not
maintaining properly and other poor practice. The last article is quite
relevant to the actual details of installation.
Pet cat fried on electric fence
Thursday, May 22, 2003
A PET CAT was fried alive on electric wires rigged up by a garden-proud
pensioner determined to protect his flower beds.
The electric fence was put up by a 68-year-old pensioner in Cumbria who
was angry that animals continually disturbed his cared-for plot.
But the fence built by James Pringle Smith caused the frightening and
painful death of Toby, the pet cat of his neighbours.
Smith, 68, of Brougham Street, Penrith, was arrested after Toby's
smouldering body was found stretched across the wires by the horrified
pet's owner.
Smith admitted causing unnecessary suffering to an animal when he
appeared at court and was ordered to pay �50 compensation. The court
heard the neighbours found their 10-month old black cat lying dead in
their neighbour's garden, with smoke coming from his mouth, on wires
stretched over the flower bed.
Smith admitted putting up the wire grid and attaching it to a 12-volt
battery charger which delivered 15 amps, magistrates in Penrith,
Cumbria, heard. Lee Dacre, prosecuting, said the ground and wires were
wet, which would have exacerbated the charge. Smith had told the police
he had tested the grid on himself.
An electrician had considered the device could kill an animal and injure
a small child, said Mr Dacre. A post mortem examination found that Toby
was electrocuted. According to a vet, Toby had probably been caught in
the wires and, thinking he was under attack, had bitten the wire and
suffered 'quite an awful death', said Mr Dacre.
Smith, who was unrepresented, told the court that for years he had been
bothered by cats which had scratched up his garden and made a mess which
'smelled awful.' He had tried all sorts of deterrents but none had
worked so he had put up an electric fence.
'I thought it wouldn't harm them but would just shock them - that's my
only excuse,' said Smith. 'I didn't mean to kill the cat or harm it in
any way.'
Presiding magistrate Howard Eastwood told Smith: 'Your actions were
foolhardy in the extreme and could have hurt a child.'
<http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=3495&in_page_id=2>
An engineering point of view (sorry I cannot copy & paste the relevant
bits):
Is your electric fence installed correctly?
The Office of the Technical Regulator, South Australia stresses the
importance of electric fences being correctly installed and connected.
While the number of human fatalities associated with livestock electric
fences is low, it is important for farmers and members of the public to
recognise that contact with an electric fence can result in tragedy.
In most cases, such contact results in a relatively harmless shock, and
usually the force of the first shock triggers awareness of the electric
fence so that contact is broken and other shocks do not follow.
However, there is a risk of serious injury or even death if you receive
multiple shocks over a long period (minutes to hours rather than seconds).
Entrapment and being rendered unconscious while in contact with an
electric fence are two situations that can cause serious injury or
death. Physical entrapment can occur if:
� you become entangled in the fence (electrified barbed wires pose a
higher risk of this and must not be used),
� you are trapped between an electric wire and a physical barrier such
as a water trough, a building or another part of the fence.
If you have a heart abnormality and/or pacemaker you are more
susceptible to being rendered unconscious from contact with an electric
fence.
There is an increased risk if your head or neck touches an electrified
wire. Climbing through or under an electric fence can increase the
danger of a shock to the head. If you need to get to the other side of a
live electric fence you should either climb over it or find away around.
Extra care should be taken with those fences near waterways, steep
hillsides and cliffs.
It is important that you have adequate warning signs provided where
there is public access. Children, employees and visitors should be made
aware of any electric fences installed on your property and the dangers
posed by electric fences.
--
Rod
Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
<www.thyromind.info> <www.thyroiduk.org> <www.altsupportthyroid.org>
Ian Jackson
<oldc...@anyoldwhere.net> writes
>Blah wrote:
>> Old Codger wrote:
>>> Blah wrote:
>>
>>>> The claim was about an invertor, not the mains.
>>>>
>>> Depends on the current (power) available from the inverter. I
>>>suspect most inverters for car batteries can provide more than
>>>25watts continuously. Any inverter that can supply 25W at 240V can kill.
>>>
>> I'm still waiting for a cite of someone who has actually died from
>>inverter electrocution, rather than 'you can' claims.
>>
>Try doing it and then we will have a cite. :-)
>
There must be many forms of electrical power supply which are
potentially lethal, but which, so far, haven't actually been responsible
for killing anyone.
Depending on which technical reports you read, something like 50 to
100mA can kill you. It is indisputable that the normal mains 230/240V
can kill you, so it is reasonable to assume that this voltage is capable
of causing a current flow of at least 50mA through the human body.
As a relatively low-power 12V-to-230V inverter rated at (say) 120W will
deliver at least 500mA, it is completely illogical to argue that 'it
won't kill you because it's only a battery-operated inverter'. But, of
course, it IS intended to do things which an electric fence is not
intended to do, and vice versa, and that is why electric fences are
non-lethal.
--
Ian