Advice needed: being barred from a public house
John Morrison
Recently, I complained to a Pub Company about the obnoxious behaviour of
one of its managers to me. I have now been told by his immediate superior
that I am banned from the premises. I note that the manager is (seemingly:
according to the notice above the door) the sole licencee: I was informed by
someone that I _think_ is the Area Manager that I have been barred from
those premises. (Until then, the aforementioned manager told me that I was
"temporarily excluded, until this matter between us is resolved".)
I know that this is very little information. I also know that -
legally - a licensee may bar anyone (s)he wishes, and without giving a
reason. I feel utterly aggrieved. What recourse in law do I have? I am 50
years old, and have never been barred from a pub before. I have only
motoring convictions. I complain only when I *know* that I am in the right.
What measures could - and should - I take?
Hoping that someone on news:uk:legal.moderated can help me, or at least
provide a few hints,
Best wishes,
John
--
"Time in its slow, illimitable course brings all to light and buries all
again." - Sophocles [Ajax 647]
Andrew McGee
Andrew McGee
"John Morrison" <john.m...@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:2uo27iF...@uni-berlin.de...
Steve
There is nothing you can do. It is their right to bar you. Find a new pub is
my advice.
Steve
Paul H
find somewhere else to drink....life is to short to get worked up about
something like this.
GB
"Andrew McGee" <amh...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:cm7g2h$kjl$1...@sparta.btinternet.com...
> You have no remedy except to find a more welcoming drinking place.
>
> Andrew McGee
Public house is a misnomer
IanAl
<bond_youkno...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>John Morrison wrote:
>> Recently, I complained to a Pub Company about the obnoxious
>> behaviour of one of its managers to me. I have now been told by his
>> immediate superior that I am banned from the premises.
>There is nothing you can do. It is their right to bar you. Find a new pub is
>my advice.
What if the OP were to live in a "barred from one, barred from all"
area? He might be unable to visit any local pub, or drink with his
friends in one.
bigbrian
he has no legal right to access to a pub
Brian
IanAl
wrote:
Or a food shop for that matter. I think you'd complain if you had to
drive to the next town to buy a pint of milk just because you
complained about the manager of the local convenience store.
Dave Mayall
news:5eveo0pjetu16rv5d...@4ax.com...
> Or a food shop for that matter. I think you'd complain if you had to
> drive to the next town to buy a pint of milk just because you
> complained about the manager of the local convenience store.
Yes, and?
The fact that somebody may complain about something doesn't mean that they
can have a legal remedy against it.
If a pub wants to bar you it can (unless on race or sex grounds). If all the
pubs in town have an agreement to bar the same people they can.
If one pub starts barring people on spurious grounds, you can bet your life,
the others will soon part company with him.
TimB
yes it is
> I complain only when I *know* that I am in the right.
> What measures could - and should - I take?
>
As you said, you gave very little information. However, it seems that
this person has the backing of their superiors, so I wouldn't bother
trying to go any further with the company. I'd also give up trying to
drink in the pub - it'll be an unpleasant experience at best.
However, if your complain has to do with anything that could affect
their license (short pouring, wrong advertising etc), then IIRC your
local magistrates is the place to air your views, since that is where
the landlord has to apply for a license renewal, at which point any
complaints made against the place are taken into account.
IANAL, but IAA bartender. HTH
TimB
Bystander
very long time.
Sorry.
R D S
Its a shame he isn't non-white, or a woman.
Then they would have a job on arring him from anything.
Zoe Brown
> legally - a licensee may bar anyone (s)he wishes, and without giving a
> reason. I feel utterly aggrieved. What recourse in law do I have?
You answered this yourself !!! They have everyright to ban you without
providing any reason.
Simon Finnigan
> Dear All,
>
> Recently, I complained to a Pub Company about the obnoxious
> behaviour of one of its managers to me. I have now been told by his
> immediate superior that I am banned from the premises. I note that
> the manager is (seemingly: according to the notice above the door)
> the sole licencee: I was informed by someone that I _think_ is the
> Area Manager that I have been barred from those premises. (Until
> then, the aforementioned manager told me that I was "temporarily
> excluded, until this matter between us is resolved".)
>
> I know that this is very little information. I also know that -
> legally - a licensee may bar anyone (s)he wishes, and without giving a
> reason. I feel utterly aggrieved. What recourse in law do I have? I
> am 50 years old, and have never been barred from a pub before. I have
> only motoring convictions. I complain only when I *know* that I am in
> the right. What measures could - and should - I take?
>
> Hoping that someone on news:uk:legal.moderated can help me, or at
> least provide a few hints,
Why would you want to continue drinking there? Why would you want to carry
on giving them money?
A friend of mine got barred from a pub for arguing with the bar staff and
manager when they got short changed. Gave in a £20, got change from a £10,
and the staff refused to help (in other words, someone had pocketed the
cash). He KNEW it was a £20, he`d only just been the cash machine and got
£20`s from the machine, and had no other money on him. After a bit of
argueing at the bar (which seemed to put off a fair few other customers
:-) ) he got barred. A moot point really, he won`t be going back there
until the management is changed.
--
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John Morrison
> Dear All,
>
--- <snip replies> ---
> Recently, I complained to a Pub Company about the obnoxious
> behaviour of one of its managers to me. I have now been told by his
> immediate superior that I am banned from the premises. I note that
> the manager is (seemingly: according to the notice above the door)
> the sole licencee: I was informed by someone that I _think_ is the
> Area Manager that I have been barred from those premises. (Until
> then, the aforementioned manager told me that I was "temporarily
> excluded, until this matter between us is resolved".)
>
> I know that this is very little information. I also know that -
> legally - a licensee may bar anyone (s)he wishes, and without giving a
> reason. I feel utterly aggrieved. What recourse in law do I have? I
> am 50 years old, and have never been barred from a pub before. I have
> only motoring convictions. I complain only when I *know* that I am in
> the right. What measures could - and should - I take?
>
> Hoping that someone on news:uk:legal.moderated can help me, or at
> least provide a few hints,
>
Thanks to each and everyone who has replied.
I won't bore anyone with my reasons for wishing to return to the pub in
question. However, now that just about everyone who has replied to my
original point has told me that I am, so to speak, between /Scylla/ and
/Charybdis/, I would like to know whether it is legal for someone _other_
than the holder of the licence to convert an "exclusion, until this matter
between us is settled" into a permanent ban. I understood that, in law, I
would have to be told *personally* by the holder of the license ...
Underlying this is the question: if a licensee pronounces an
unreasonable ban, is there any recourse _other_ than contacting the
appropriate Magistrates' Court's licensing serjeant?
To explain further, my original problem revolved around the manager
topping up a pint of beer (already paid for, and served by a different
barman) with a _different_ beer - which I would never have asked for, adding
that "you would never taste the difference",and then, later, making an
obnoxious remark about what bodily substances (of his own) he might _also_
have added - and that I would never taste ...
Further advice welcome ... ?
John
--
"I thought that epistemology was the theory of pub-crawling, until I read
Bertrand Russell; and then I _knew_ it was." - [Philosophy Department,
University of Southampton: trad.]
Alasdair Baxter
wrote:
>Its a shame he isn't non-white, or a woman.
>Then they would have a job on barring him from anything.
or disabled.
I don't think being a woman would help unless the barring was for
being a woman per se.
--
Alasdair Baxter, Nottingham, UK.Tel +44 115 9705100; Fax +44 115 9423263
"It's not what you say that matters but how you say it.
It's not what you do that matters but how you do it"
Alasdair Baxter
wrote:
>If you are barred, you are barred. It is their privilege, and has been for a
>very long time.
This might well be so but times are changing. I'm just wondering if
someone with adequate resources, e.g. a lottery winner, would get any
joy under the recent Human Rights legislation.
Alasdair Baxter
<zoenao...@removethis.btinternet.com> wrote:
> I know that this is very little information. I also know that -
> legally - a licensee may bar anyone (s)he wishes, and without giving a
> reason. I feel utterly aggrieved. What recourse in law do I have?
The only hope I can see is that if someone tested this long standing
privilege of the licensee in the Eurpoean Court of Human Rights.
Alex Heney
wrote:
>On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:30:20 +0000, "Bystander" <marl...@fsmail.net>
>wrote:
>
>>If you are barred, you are barred. It is their privilege, and has been for a
>>very long time.
>
>This might well be so but times are changing. I'm just wondering if
>someone with adequate resources, e.g. a lottery winner, would get any
>joy under the recent Human Rights legislation.
No.
The pub is private property, and anybody, in general, has the right to
choose who they allow onto their private property. (There are of
course exceptions for such thing as public rights of way).
The HR legislation is more likely to act in the favour of the publican
here than the customer.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
It's easier to obtain forgiveness than permission.
To reply by email, my address is alexATheneyDOTplusDOTcom
Alex Heney
<john.m...@tesco.net> wrote:
<snip>
>
> I won't bore anyone with my reasons for wishing to return to the pub in
>question. However, now that just about everyone who has replied to my
>original point has told me that I am, so to speak, between /Scylla/ and
>/Charybdis/, I would like to know whether it is legal for someone _other_
>than the holder of the licence to convert an "exclusion, until this matter
>between us is settled" into a permanent ban. I understood that, in law, I
>would have to be told *personally* by the holder of the license ...
>
I don't think so. While the licensee certainly has the power to ban
people, so does the owner, who in this case is obviously not the same
person.
> Underlying this is the question: if a licensee pronounces an
>unreasonable ban, is there any recourse _other_ than contacting the
>appropriate Magistrates' Court's licensing serjeant?
>
There is NO recourse.
They can ban whoever they like.
The only time you might have recourse would be if they were breaching
one of the anti-discrimination laws.
> To explain further, my original problem revolved around the manager
>topping up a pint of beer (already paid for, and served by a different
>barman) with a _different_ beer - which I would never have asked for, adding
>that "you would never taste the difference",and then, later, making an
>obnoxious remark about what bodily substances (of his own) he might _also_
>have added - and that I would never taste ...
>
> Further advice welcome ... ?
>
You've still got no recourse.
And if you *did* persuade the owners to allow you back in, think of
the risk of him *actually* adding those bodily substances :-(
Alex Heney
wrote:
>On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 21:10:09 +0000, "Zoe Brown"
><zoenao...@removethis.btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> I know that this is very little information. I also know that -
>> legally - a licensee may bar anyone (s)he wishes, and without giving a
>> reason. I feel utterly aggrieved. What recourse in law do I have?
>
>
>The only hope I can see is that if someone tested this long standing
>privilege of the licensee in the Eurpoean Court of Human Rights.
Why on earth might you think it would be against the human rights
legislation to have a right to decide who can enter your premises?
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>
> Underlying this is the question: if a licensee pronounces an
>unreasonable ban, is there any recourse _other_ than contacting the
>appropriate Magistrates' Court's licensing serjeant?
There is no such thing as an unreasonable ban. A ban doesn't have to
have a reason; they can ban you purely on a whim if they want to.
>
> Further advice welcome ... ?
In my experience, bans are rarely enforced beyond the immediate memory
of the person who originally told you that you are banned. Just avoid
the place for a few months and then go back again. I'd be very
surprised if you have any problems.
Mark
--
--> http://photos.markshouse.net - see my world! <--
"Life is both a major and a minor key"
Graham Brack
news:bmdho0d20a8ihlrbl...@4ax.com...
> >topping up a pint of beer (already paid for, and served by a different
> >barman) with a _different_ beer - which I would never have asked for,
adding
> >that "you would never taste the difference",and then, later, making an
> >obnoxious remark about what bodily substances (of his own) he might
_also_
> >have added - and that I would never taste ...
> >
occur.
1. Write to the Clerk to the Licensing Justices querying whether the
licensee is a fit and proper person to hold a licence. At least that will
cause him some aggravation.
2. Since your pint wasn't what you'd ordered and paid for, you could contact
Trading Standards. They will have no trouble organising a few staff to do
some on-site surveillance.
3. You could try telling your story to the local press, which might provoke
a climbdown. On the other hand they might blacken your name.
I don't particularly recommend any of these, which may be disproportionate
to the grief you have suffered. Only you know how much it matters to you.
Bystander
> licensee is a fit and proper person to hold a licence. At least that will
> cause him some aggravation.
Pointless. You will need reasons that the court can relate to.
> 2. Since your pint wasn't what you'd ordered and paid for, you could
> contact
> Trading Standards. They will have no trouble organising a few staff to do
> some on-site surveillance.
A huge waste of resources that will not happen.
> 3. You could try telling your story to the local press, which might
> provoke
> a climbdown. On the other hand they might blacken your name.
The Editor will wish to keep his job, and a libel suit for such a tiny issue
will not appeal to him.
> I don't particularly recommend any of these, which may be disproportionate
> to the grief you have suffered. Only you know how much it matters to you.
Quite. Move on, in pub as in life.
Paul Cummins
(Bystander) wrote:
> > 1. Write to the Clerk to the Licensing Justices querying whether the
> > licensee is a fit and proper person to hold a licence. At least that
> > will
> > cause him some aggravation.
>
> Pointless. You will need reasons that the court can relate to.
Threatening to sell short measures and adulterated beer...
--
Paul Cummins - Always a NetHead
Wasting Bandwidth since 1981
Bystander
"Paul Cummins" wrote (snipped)
>
>> > 1. Write to the Clerk to the Licensing Justices querying whether the
>> > licensee is a fit and proper person to hold a licence. At least that
>> > will
>> > cause him some aggravation.
>>
>> Pointless. You will need reasons that the court can relate to.
>
> Threatening to sell short measures and adulterated beer...
Which has nothing to do with the licensing bench. The OP should not waste
his and other people's time.
Paul Cummins
(Bystander) wrote:
> Which has nothing to do with the licensing bench. The OP should not
> waste his and other people's time.
On the contrary - if there is a suspicion that the licensee is prepared to
commit fraud, that casts a doubt on his fitness.
GB
"Mark Goodge" <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qufio0drftpk23sbd...@news.markshouse.net...
> On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 00:15:07 +0000, John Morrison put finger to
> keyboard and typed:
>>
>> Underlying this is the question: if a licensee pronounces an
>>unreasonable ban, is there any recourse _other_ than contacting the
>>appropriate Magistrates' Court's licensing serjeant?
>
> There is no such thing as an unreasonable ban. A ban doesn't have to
> have a reason; they can ban you purely on a whim if they want to.
Not on grounds of race or religion, I trust?
Howard Neil
> In article <2ut3jpF...@uni-berlin.de>, marl...@fsmail.net
> (Bystander) wrote:
>
>
>>Which has nothing to do with the licensing bench. The OP should not
>>waste his and other people's time.
>
>
> On the contrary - if there is a suspicion that the licensee is prepared to
> commit fraud, that casts a doubt on his fitness.
>
The right place to start in these circumstances is the local police
Licensing Officer.
--
Howard Neil
Alasdair Baxter
wrote:
>The pub is private property,
Surely this is a contradiction in terms. It may well be private
property but it is a *public* house. It offers a *public* service and
is licensed to do so.
To use another analogy. A bus station is frequently private property
but I cannot see the bus company which owns it being able to bar
certain members of the public from using it without a court injunction
which would only be granted if there was a good reason for the
barring, not merely being lippy to the manager.
TimB
>
> Thanks to each and everyone who has replied.
>
> I won't bore anyone with my reasons for wishing to return to the pub in
> question. However, now that just about everyone who has replied to my
> original point has told me that I am, so to speak, between /Scylla/ and
> /Charybdis/, I would like to know whether it is legal for someone _other_
> than the holder of the licence to convert an "exclusion, until this matter
> between us is settled" into a permanent ban. I understood that, in law, I
> would have to be told *personally* by the holder of the license ...
Wrong. You can be barred by the licensee or anyone who has been given
authority to ban people. Many town center pubs delegate such tasks to
the bouncers, and the owner will generally respect the bouncers
decision regardless of their reasoning.
>
> Underlying this is the question: if a licensee pronounces an
> unreasonable ban, is there any recourse _other_ than contacting the
> appropriate Magistrates' Court's licensing serjeant?
Not in law, no.
>
> To explain further, my original problem revolved around the manager
> topping up a pint of beer (already paid for, and served by a different
> barman) with a _different_ beer - which I would never have asked for, adding
> that "you would never taste the difference",and then, later, making an
> obnoxious remark about what bodily substances (of his own) he might _also_
> have added - and that I would never taste ...
What type of glass was the drink served in? i.e. a generic pint glass,
or a specifically branded one? Either way, the breweries that produce
your chosen tipples may be very interested to hear your story.
Breweries are VERY protective of their brand, and will cheerfully
withdraw supply of their product if they feel the licensee's actions
jeapordise their brand image. For example, Budweiser won't hesitate to
withdraw your supply if you serve any other brand in a Bud glass, or
Bud in any other branded glass. Coke/Pepsi are the same, to the point
that the nozzles for connecting their respective products are totally
unique, and cannot be used with generic pumps etc.
Steve
> On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:50:08 +0000, Alex Heney <m...@privacy.net>
> wrote:
>
>> The pub is private property,
>
> Surely this is a contradiction in terms. It may well be private
> property but it is a *public* house. It offers a *public* service and
> is licensed to do so.
>
> To use another analogy. A bus station is frequently private property
> but I cannot see the bus company which owns it being able to bar
> certain members of the public from using it without a court injunction
> which would only be granted if there was a good reason for the
> barring, not merely being lippy to the manager.
Exactly what legal qualifications do you posess? A land owner may bar anyone
from entering his land unless the person has a legal right to be there, e.g.
right of access. A pub owner may bar anyone for any reason and there is
nothing you can do about it!
Steve
Alex Heney
wrote:
>On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:50:08 +0000, Alex Heney <m...@privacy.net>
>wrote:
>
>>The pub is private property,
>
>Surely this is a contradiction in terms. It may well be private
>property but it is a *public* house. It offers a *public* service and
>is licensed to do so.
>
>To use another analogy. A bus station is frequently private property
>but I cannot see the bus company which owns it being able to bar
>certain members of the public from using it without a court injunction
>which would only be granted if there was a good reason for the
>barring, not merely being lippy to the manager.
Why would you think they couldn't?
What right do you think any person have to enter private property
without the permission of the owner?
There are exceptions for things like public rights of way (and this
has been extended in some areas by the "right to roam" legislation),
but as a general rule, any person can permit or bar anybody they wish
from entering their property, so long as this is not systematic in a
manner that conflict with the anti-discrimination legislation.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
The bigger they are, the harder they hit you.
Mark Goodge
typed:
>
>"Mark Goodge" <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:qufio0drftpk23sbd...@news.markshouse.net...
>> On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 00:15:07 +0000, John Morrison put finger to
>> keyboard and typed:
>>>
>>> Underlying this is the question: if a licensee pronounces an
>>>unreasonable ban, is there any recourse _other_ than contacting the
>>>appropriate Magistrates' Court's licensing serjeant?
>>
>> There is no such thing as an unreasonable ban. A ban doesn't have to
>> have a reason; they can ban you purely on a whim if they want to.
>
>Not on grounds of race or religion, I trust?
If it could be shown that the reason for the ban was solely due to
race (not, at the moment, religion), then the landlord or manager
would be in breach of the relevant anti-discrimination legislation.
But this would be hard to prove unless the landlord was known to be
banning all people of a particular race (or not of a particular race),
and it still wouldn't make the ban itself unlawful - it would merely
simply mean that the landlord had committed an offence sparate to the
ban.
Mark
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