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Is Epson breaking the law?
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Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Jun 1, 2018, 2:52:59 AM6/1/18
to
Epson prevents your printer from printing when it's ink pads are "at the end of their life". You can reset these (and I have done once already) by paying a third party money to give you a reset code. I've now reached the second time they've reached the "end of their life", so clearly it's a load of rubbish, as they've already run for twice as long as the printer thinks they should. The ink pads are just used to collect waste ink during cleaning, and clearly the ink is water based and just evaporates. No ink has spilled onto my desk and I wouldn't care if any did, but Epson want me to buy a new printer. Is this not amounting to theft of my property? You can't just brick a device that's owned by your customer, surely?
Roland Perry
Jun 1, 2018, 3:24:26 AM6/1/18
to
In message <op.zjwh6...@red.lan>, at 00:00:18 on Fri, 1 Jun 2018,
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <now...@somewear.co.uk> remarked:
>Epson prevents your printer from printing when it's ink pads are "at
>the end of their life". You can reset these (and I have done once
>already) by paying a third party money to give you a reset code.
What model-number printer do you have?
>I've now reached the second time they've reached the "end of their
>life", so clearly it's a load of rubbish, as they've already run for
>twice as long as the printer thinks they should. The ink pads are just
>used to collect waste ink during cleaning, and clearly the ink is water
>based and just evaporates. No ink has spilled onto my desk and I
>wouldn't care if any did, but Epson want me to buy a new printer. Is
>this not amounting to theft of my property? You can't just brick a
>device that's owned by your customer, surely?
A major manufacturer bricked my car by saying that a speed sensor in the
gearbox had failed (it's apparently relatively common - they get too
dirty to work properly) and the problem is they refuse to sell new
sensors.
In both scenarios, were it illegal the EU would have ruled about it long
ago. Some work-arounds exist, probably.
--
Roland Perry
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <now...@somewear.co.uk> remarked:
>Epson prevents your printer from printing when it's ink pads are "at
>the end of their life". You can reset these (and I have done once
>already) by paying a third party money to give you a reset code.
>I've now reached the second time they've reached the "end of their
>life", so clearly it's a load of rubbish, as they've already run for
>twice as long as the printer thinks they should. The ink pads are just
>used to collect waste ink during cleaning, and clearly the ink is water
>based and just evaporates. No ink has spilled onto my desk and I
>wouldn't care if any did, but Epson want me to buy a new printer. Is
>this not amounting to theft of my property? You can't just brick a
>device that's owned by your customer, surely?
gearbox had failed (it's apparently relatively common - they get too
dirty to work properly) and the problem is they refuse to sell new
sensors.
In both scenarios, were it illegal the EU would have ruled about it long
ago. Some work-arounds exist, probably.
--
Roland Perry
Martin Brown
Jun 1, 2018, 4:31:37 AM6/1/18
to
On 01/06/2018 08:23, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <op.zjwh6...@red.lan>, at 00:00:18 on Fri, 1 Jun 2018,
> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <now...@somewear.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> Epson prevents your printer from printing when it's ink pads are "at
>> the end of their life". You can reset these (and I have done once
>> already) by paying a third party money to give you a reset code.
>
> What model-number printer do you have?
Given that they sell OEM printer ink for a price per gram greater than
> In message <op.zjwh6...@red.lan>, at 00:00:18 on Fri, 1 Jun 2018,
> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <now...@somewear.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> Epson prevents your printer from printing when it's ink pads are "at
>> the end of their life". You can reset these (and I have done once
>> already) by paying a third party money to give you a reset code.
>
> What model-number printer do you have?
heroin it isn't too surprising that they try to lock in purchasers to
buyingonly their ink. They will probably justify it by saying that print
quality cannot be guaranteed after a certain number of pages have been
printed.
And in that they would be right. I chose my printers very carefully so
that I could get supplies of adequate quality third party inks and
toner. The difference is remarkable (not Epson) £80 toner cartridge from
the manufacturer vs under £20 for a perfectly good clone. Curiously the
clones are cheaper than you can buy reputable refill toner for!
>> I've now reached the second time they've reached the "end of their
>> life", so clearly it's a load of rubbish, as they've already run for
>> twice as long as the printer thinks they should. The ink pads are
>> just used to collect waste ink during cleaning, and clearly the ink is
>> water based and just evaporates. No ink has spilled onto my desk and
>> I wouldn't care if any did, but Epson want me to buy a new printer.
>> Is this not amounting to theft of my property? You can't just brick a
>> device that's owned by your customer, surely?
>
> A major manufacturer bricked my car by saying that a speed sensor in the
> gearbox had failed (it's apparently relatively common - they get too
> dirty to work properly) and the problem is they refuse to sell new sensors.
Or was the car so old that this would not have been economic?
> In both scenarios, were it illegal the EU would have ruled about it long
> ago. Some work-arounds exist, probably.
be used as an excuse to scrap an entire car. Be worth making a few waves
on one of the consumer programmes about "recycling" to see what gives.
You could exert a lot of pressure on their PR department that way.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Roland Perry
Jun 1, 2018, 4:52:38 AM6/1/18
to
In message <per094$1ses$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:31:32 on Fri, 1 Jun
2018, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> A major manufacturer bricked my car by saying that a speed sensor in
>>the gearbox had failed (it's apparently relatively common - they get
>>too dirty to work properly) and the problem is they refuse to sell
>>new sensors.
>
>Surely they would still sell you a new gearbox and fitting?
>Or was the car so old that this would not have been economic?
Yes, a new gearbox and fitting was available, around £3k. Which is about
what I paid for the whole car a year earlier.
>> In both scenarios, were it illegal the EU would have ruled about it
>>long ago. Some work-arounds exist, probably.
>
>It seems to me totally unreasonable that a sensor component failure can
>be used as an excuse to scrap an entire car. Be worth making a few
>waves on one of the consumer programmes about "recycling" to see what
>gives. You could exert a lot of pressure on their PR department that way.
Their excuse is that the gearbox has to be "keyed" to the ECU/Engine as
a security measure to stop people stealing cars, stripping them down
into components (such as gearbox, engine etc) and selling those parts.
In turn, the $10 sensor is "keyed" to the gearbox.
Regulators appear to have swallowed this.
--
Roland Perry
2018, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> A major manufacturer bricked my car by saying that a speed sensor in
>>the gearbox had failed (it's apparently relatively common - they get
>>too dirty to work properly) and the problem is they refuse to sell
>>new sensors.
>
>Surely they would still sell you a new gearbox and fitting?
>Or was the car so old that this would not have been economic?
what I paid for the whole car a year earlier.
>> In both scenarios, were it illegal the EU would have ruled about it
>>long ago. Some work-arounds exist, probably.
>
>It seems to me totally unreasonable that a sensor component failure can
>be used as an excuse to scrap an entire car. Be worth making a few
>waves on one of the consumer programmes about "recycling" to see what
>gives. You could exert a lot of pressure on their PR department that way.
a security measure to stop people stealing cars, stripping them down
into components (such as gearbox, engine etc) and selling those parts.
In turn, the $10 sensor is "keyed" to the gearbox.
Regulators appear to have swallowed this.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
Jun 1, 2018, 6:02:31 AM6/1/18
to
In message <per3ht$7nt$2...@dont-email.me>, at 09:27:25 on Fri, 1 Jun
2018, Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> remarked:
>> Regulators appear to have swallowed this.
>
>Is there evidence it works ?
As an anti-theft measure? I don't know.
Of course, no-one would want to steal my car with its bricked gearbox,
and there's the collateral damage that it's impossible[1] to recycle a
gearbox from a genuinely scrapped car.
[1] Other than by a franchised main dealer, and they'd refuse to do that
anyway, even if it wasn't keyed.
--
Roland Perry
2018, Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> remarked:
>> Regulators appear to have swallowed this.
>
As an anti-theft measure? I don't know.
Of course, no-one would want to steal my car with its bricked gearbox,
and there's the collateral damage that it's impossible[1] to recycle a
gearbox from a genuinely scrapped car.
[1] Other than by a franchised main dealer, and they'd refuse to do that
anyway, even if it wasn't keyed.
--
Roland Perry
Judith
Jun 1, 2018, 6:44:43 AM6/1/18
to
electrocution. Resetting the counter voids the warranty, increases the
risk and absolves Epson of liability.
Very much a case of "caveat emptor" : next time do better research before
buying.
lordgnome
Jun 1, 2018, 6:45:18 AM6/1/18
to
ago and invested in a Dell colour laser. It is very reliable and is
quite happy to accept other makes of cartridge (they last a heck of a
long time anyway.)
Les.
TTman
Jun 1, 2018, 6:54:34 AM6/1/18
to
>> It seems to me totally unreasonable that a sensor component failure
>> can be used as an excuse to scrap an entire car. Be worth making a few
>> waves on one of the consumer programmes about "recycling" to see what
>> gives. You could exert a lot of pressure on their PR department that way.
>
> Their excuse is that the gearbox has to be "keyed" to the ECU/Engine as
> a security measure to stop people stealing cars, stripping them down
> into components (such as gearbox, engine etc) and selling those parts.
>
> In turn, the $10 sensor is "keyed" to the gearbox.
>
> Regulators appear to have swallowed this.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Martin Brown
Jun 1, 2018, 8:23:48 AM6/1/18
to
hide inside their printers during manufacture too.
There is *NO* reason to suppose that any piece of electronic equipment
made to a decent CE standard of isolation will electrocute its user or
catch fire unless it is seriously abused or has a design fault. It is
all to get you to buy a new printer with even more sophisticated lockin
devices to prevent you from using third party inks. The scheme is
designed to have the printer stop working about the same time as the
third party ink cloners have defeated the ink chip protection.
I once had a Japanese Fax/Ansaphone that did have a damn good go at
burning the house down but fortunately I was there when the magic smoke
began to emerge as the scan light transformer went up in smoke and
flames. I have also had a TV and a PC PSU go up in smoke. The latter was
very exciting with black smoke and fan assisted flames out the back.
> Very much a case of "caveat emptor" : next time do better research before
> buying.
>
instead of their much more expensive OEM inks. The quality usually isn't
quite as good with third party inks (unless you are buying into the bulk
ink photo system for very high volume photographic printing).
They practically give away the printer to get you on their consumables.
Longevity is certainly not as good for third party inks vs OEM but most
stuff I print on mine needs to only last a month or so.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Roland Perry
Jun 1, 2018, 9:03:21 AM6/1/18
to
In message <perdse$m3m$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 13:23:43 on Fri, 1 Jun
they wish to accept the low-start cost model.
--
Roland Perry
>They practically give away the printer to get you on their consumables.
It's a marketing technique as old as the hills, buyers need to choose if
they wish to accept the low-start cost model.
--
Roland Perry
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Jun 1, 2018, 9:29:40 AM6/1/18
to
Didn't Epson et al lose the lawsuit from the 3rd party ink manufacturers a while back? Why are they not forced to make chipless printers?
Mark Goodge
Jun 1, 2018, 9:31:03 AM6/1/18
to
On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 13:52:27 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
wrote:
Indeed. Subsidising the up-front cost of the hardware from the ongoing
sale of consumables is hardly new. See also the typical "£50 a month
for an iPhone" contract, which in the long run works out more
expensive than buying it contract-free and getting a SIM-only
contract.
The particular problem with printers, though, is that there isn't
generally an option to buy one at an unsubsidised price and then be
able to get ink from anywhere. If printer manufacturers offered two
versions of an otherwise identical model:
A: Works with any ink - £500
B: Only works with our (expensive) ink: £200
then a lot more people would see option B for the rip-off that it
usually[1] is. But that option isn't usually availanle, instead, the
only way to get an unsubsidised price is to use a different
manufacturer. And that makes price comparison harder, not least
because the feature set may also be different.
[1] Sometimes, the subsidised option does work out cheaper. But you
have to do your sums carefully to be sure.
Mark
wrote:
sale of consumables is hardly new. See also the typical "£50 a month
for an iPhone" contract, which in the long run works out more
expensive than buying it contract-free and getting a SIM-only
contract.
The particular problem with printers, though, is that there isn't
generally an option to buy one at an unsubsidised price and then be
able to get ink from anywhere. If printer manufacturers offered two
versions of an otherwise identical model:
A: Works with any ink - £500
B: Only works with our (expensive) ink: £200
then a lot more people would see option B for the rip-off that it
usually[1] is. But that option isn't usually availanle, instead, the
only way to get an unsubsidised price is to use a different
manufacturer. And that makes price comparison harder, not least
because the feature set may also be different.
[1] Sometimes, the subsidised option does work out cheaper. But you
have to do your sums carefully to be sure.
Mark
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Jun 1, 2018, 9:31:33 AM6/1/18
to
On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 08:23:44 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <op.zjwh6...@red.lan>, at 00:00:18 on Fri, 1 Jun 2018,
> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <now...@somewear.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> Epson prevents your printer from printing when it's ink pads are "at
>> the end of their life". You can reset these (and I have done once
>> already) by paying a third party money to give you a reset code.
>
> What model-number printer do you have?
Epson Stylus S22, with third party continuous ink tanks sat beside it. Equivalent of 13p per "cartridge". I buy ink per litre, not per 13ml. Even with "fake" cartridges, you're buying the plastic cartridge which costs way more than the ink itself. I only buy ink, in big bottles.
> In message <op.zjwh6...@red.lan>, at 00:00:18 on Fri, 1 Jun 2018,
> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <now...@somewear.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> Epson prevents your printer from printing when it's ink pads are "at
>> the end of their life". You can reset these (and I have done once
>> already) by paying a third party money to give you a reset code.
>
> What model-number printer do you have?
>> I've now reached the second time they've reached the "end of their
>> life", so clearly it's a load of rubbish, as they've already run for
>> twice as long as the printer thinks they should. The ink pads are just
>> used to collect waste ink during cleaning, and clearly the ink is water
>> based and just evaporates. No ink has spilled onto my desk and I
>> wouldn't care if any did, but Epson want me to buy a new printer. Is
>> this not amounting to theft of my property? You can't just brick a
>> device that's owned by your customer, surely?
>
> A major manufacturer bricked my car by saying that a speed sensor in the
> gearbox had failed (it's apparently relatively common - they get too
> dirty to work properly) and the problem is they refuse to sell new
> sensors.
>
> In both scenarios, were it illegal the EU would have ruled about it long
> ago. Some work-arounds exist, probably.
--
There was a rabbi who collected foreskins, had them dried out and made into a wallet - whenever you stroked the wallet it became a briefcase.
tim...
Jun 1, 2018, 9:51:47 AM6/1/18
to
"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
news:AO4Ir9ay...@perry.co.uk...
legitimate means
There's a genuine market in replacement engines from cars that have been
written off in accidents that only damaged the car's structure
> Regulators appear to have swallowed this.
tim
Roland Perry
Jun 1, 2018, 10:12:35 AM6/1/18
to
In message <p5i2hd1oahu8k8i4f...@4ax.com>, at 14:30:58 on
Fri, 1 Jun 2018, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
the few where that stark choice is available to the user.
>And that makes price comparison harder, not least
>because the feature set may also be different.
Indeed. Other than mobile phones, most folks using this marketing
technique put as many obstacles in the way of the consumer as possible.
>[1] Sometimes, the subsidised option does work out cheaper. But you
>have to do your sums carefully to be sure.
>
>Mark
--
Roland Perry
Fri, 1 Jun 2018, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 13:52:27 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <perdse$m3m$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 13:23:43 on Fri, 1 Jun
>>2018, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>They practically give away the printer to get you on their consumables.
>>
>>It's a marketing technique as old as the hills, buyers need to choose if
>>they wish to accept the low-start cost model.
>
>Indeed. Subsidising the up-front cost of the hardware from the ongoing
>sale of consumables is hardly new. See also the typical "£50 a month
>for an iPhone" contract, which in the long run works out more
>expensive than buying it contract-free and getting a SIM-only
>contract.
>
>The particular problem with printers, though, is that there isn't
>generally an option to buy one at an unsubsidised price and then be
>able to get ink from anywhere. If printer manufacturers offered two
>versions of an otherwise identical model:
>
> A: Works with any ink - £500
> B: Only works with our (expensive) ink: £200
>
>then a lot more people would see option B for the rip-off that it
>usually[1] is. But that option isn't usually availanle, instead, the
>only way to get an unsubsidised price is to use a different
>manufacturer.
Phones are in fact one of the few exceptions to the rule - viz one of
>wrote:
>
>>In message <perdse$m3m$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 13:23:43 on Fri, 1 Jun
>>2018, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>They practically give away the printer to get you on their consumables.
>>
>>It's a marketing technique as old as the hills, buyers need to choose if
>>they wish to accept the low-start cost model.
>
>Indeed. Subsidising the up-front cost of the hardware from the ongoing
>sale of consumables is hardly new. See also the typical "£50 a month
>for an iPhone" contract, which in the long run works out more
>expensive than buying it contract-free and getting a SIM-only
>contract.
>
>The particular problem with printers, though, is that there isn't
>generally an option to buy one at an unsubsidised price and then be
>able to get ink from anywhere. If printer manufacturers offered two
>versions of an otherwise identical model:
>
> A: Works with any ink - £500
> B: Only works with our (expensive) ink: £200
>
>then a lot more people would see option B for the rip-off that it
>usually[1] is. But that option isn't usually availanle, instead, the
>only way to get an unsubsidised price is to use a different
>manufacturer.
the few where that stark choice is available to the user.
>And that makes price comparison harder, not least
>because the feature set may also be different.
technique put as many obstacles in the way of the consumer as possible.
>[1] Sometimes, the subsidised option does work out cheaper. But you
>have to do your sums carefully to be sure.
>
>Mark
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
Jun 1, 2018, 10:21:44 AM6/1/18
to
In message <op.zjxi0...@red.lan>, at 13:15:36 on Fri, 1 Jun 2018,
>with third party continuous ink tanks sat beside it. Equivalent of 13p
>per "cartridge". I buy ink per litre, not per 13ml. Even with "fake"
>cartridges, you're buying the plastic cartridge which costs way more
>than the ink itself. I only buy ink, in big bottles.
>
>>> I've now reached the second time they've reached the "end of their
>>> life", so clearly it's a load of rubbish, as they've already run for
>>> twice as long as the printer thinks they should. The ink pads are just
>>> used to collect waste ink during cleaning, and clearly the ink is water
>>> based and just evaporates. No ink has spilled onto my desk and I
>>> wouldn't care if any did, but Epson want me to buy a new printer. Is
>>> this not amounting to theft of my property? You can't just brick a
>>> device that's owned by your customer, surely?
>>
>> A major manufacturer bricked my car by saying that a speed sensor in the
>> gearbox had failed (it's apparently relatively common - they get too
>> dirty to work properly) and the problem is they refuse to sell new
>> sensors.
>>
>> In both scenarios, were it illegal the EU would have ruled about it long
>> ago. Some work-arounds exist, probably.
>
>If a manufacturer cost me that much I'd take them to small claims
>court, only costs you £30.
No good if one is bound to lose. As far as I can tell, no-one has won
yet, and I sure don't want to bring a test case (if nothing else its
importance and complexity would mean no chance of it being assigned to
the small claims track).
--
Roland Perry
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <now...@somewear.co.uk> remarked:
>On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 08:23:44 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <op.zjwh6...@red.lan>, at 00:00:18 on Fri, 1 Jun 2018,
>> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <now...@somewear.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> Epson prevents your printer from printing when it's ink pads are "at
>>> the end of their life". You can reset these (and I have done once
>>> already) by paying a third party money to give you a reset code.
>>
>> What model-number printer do you have?
>
>Epson Stylus S22,
You've done well to keep it going as long as you have.
>On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 08:23:44 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <op.zjwh6...@red.lan>, at 00:00:18 on Fri, 1 Jun 2018,
>> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <now...@somewear.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> Epson prevents your printer from printing when it's ink pads are "at
>>> the end of their life". You can reset these (and I have done once
>>> already) by paying a third party money to give you a reset code.
>>
>> What model-number printer do you have?
>
>Epson Stylus S22,
>with third party continuous ink tanks sat beside it. Equivalent of 13p
>per "cartridge". I buy ink per litre, not per 13ml. Even with "fake"
>cartridges, you're buying the plastic cartridge which costs way more
>than the ink itself. I only buy ink, in big bottles.
>
>>> I've now reached the second time they've reached the "end of their
>>> life", so clearly it's a load of rubbish, as they've already run for
>>> twice as long as the printer thinks they should. The ink pads are just
>>> used to collect waste ink during cleaning, and clearly the ink is water
>>> based and just evaporates. No ink has spilled onto my desk and I
>>> wouldn't care if any did, but Epson want me to buy a new printer. Is
>>> this not amounting to theft of my property? You can't just brick a
>>> device that's owned by your customer, surely?
>>
>> A major manufacturer bricked my car by saying that a speed sensor in the
>> gearbox had failed (it's apparently relatively common - they get too
>> dirty to work properly) and the problem is they refuse to sell new
>> sensors.
>>
>> In both scenarios, were it illegal the EU would have ruled about it long
>> ago. Some work-arounds exist, probably.
>
>If a manufacturer cost me that much I'd take them to small claims
>court, only costs you £30.
yet, and I sure don't want to bring a test case (if nothing else its
importance and complexity would mean no chance of it being assigned to
the small claims track).
--
Roland Perry
Fredxx
Jun 1, 2018, 12:31:03 PM6/1/18
to
consumables together.
There are many suppliers of consumables who are wise to the techniques
used by manufacturers and can supply intelligent cartridges at a
fraction the price of a genuine cartridge.
Roland Perry
Jun 1, 2018, 3:33:52 PM6/1/18
to
In message <peripf$ado$1...@dont-email.me>, at 14:46:04 on Fri, 1 Jun 2018,
tim... <tims_n...@yahoo.com> remarked:
I know, but this manufacturer's policy appears to break that business
model.
>> Regulators appear to have swallowed this.
>
>Hm
--
Roland Perry
tim... <tims_n...@yahoo.com> remarked:
model.
>> Regulators appear to have swallowed this.
>
>Hm
Roland Perry
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Jun 1, 2018, 4:49:29 PM6/1/18
to
> There are many suppliers of consumables who are wise to the techniques
> used by manufacturers and can supply intelligent cartridges at a
> fraction the price of a genuine cartridge.
tim...
Jun 2, 2018, 5:03:56 AM6/2/18
to
news:OqQLizvQ...@perry.co.uk...
But surely the "we want to avoid unnecessary waste" EU ought to be
legislating to force manufactures to allow it.
But presumably lobbying by big business has been allowed to win here?
(and that's not an anti EU comment, I support the principle of avoiding
wastefully throwing away things. It's the fact that lobbying from some
sectors of industry wins and from others, it doesn't, that I don't like - it
ought to be a level playing field.)
tim
legislating to force manufactures to allow it.
But presumably lobbying by big business has been allowed to win here?
(and that's not an anti EU comment, I support the principle of avoiding
wastefully throwing away things. It's the fact that lobbying from some
sectors of industry wins and from others, it doesn't, that I don't like - it
ought to be a level playing field.)
tim
tim...
Jun 2, 2018, 5:05:16 AM6/2/18
to
"Fredxx" <fre...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:permqt$622$1...@dont-email.me...
It is possible for them to do that because they aren't collecting the
capital item subsidy in their price. And if the manufacture wasn't
colleting that subsidy in his price, he could sell the ink cheaper as well.
It's wrong to see the original manufacture's price as just the price for
their ink, and comparisons that do this (I.e. with vintage champagne) are
completely bogus.
However it's difficult to know what the solution here is. Forcing
manufacturers away from this "subsidy" model would probably see
significantly few printers bought.
tim
Sara Merriman
Jun 2, 2018, 5:05:44 AM6/2/18
to
In article <op.zjxvm...@red.lan>, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
They're a great idea, but some printers need bits chopping off to get
the feeds in, and if the printer is somewhere you can see it everyday,
they can look ugly. Of course that matters more to some than others.
the feeds in, and if the printer is somewhere you can see it everyday,
they can look ugly. Of course that matters more to some than others.
Fredxx
Jun 2, 2018, 5:27:28 AM6/2/18
to
tim...
Jun 2, 2018, 8:20:15 AM6/2/18
to
news:petn43$4fn$1...@dont-email.me...
I actually meant because fewer people would own one, not because the upgrade
cycle would be longer.
People would share, as I do with my sister, because as I prefer the higher
quality print from a laser for my business correspondence, I only have a B&W
printer.
Should I ever actually need anything printed in colour, I stick it on a
memory stick and get her to print to for me (or at least I did when I used
to drive past her house on a frequent basis - not got a current solution
:-()
tim
cycle would be longer.
People would share, as I do with my sister, because as I prefer the higher
quality print from a laser for my business correspondence, I only have a B&W
printer.
Should I ever actually need anything printed in colour, I stick it on a
memory stick and get her to print to for me (or at least I did when I used
to drive past her house on a frequent basis - not got a current solution
:-()
tim
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Jun 2, 2018, 8:20:37 AM6/2/18
to
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Jun 2, 2018, 8:24:35 AM6/2/18
to
Even if you did need to cut a bit off, it's not that difficult to do a neat job of making a 3mm gap surely? If you're that fussy about looks, you'll also be skillful at doing things in a tidy way.
Fredxx
Jun 2, 2018, 10:03:04 AM6/2/18
to
Again I looked at costs of printers vs cost of toner cartridges.
Roland Perry
Jun 2, 2018, 12:03:16 PM6/2/18
to
In message <petivh$gfd$1...@dont-email.me>, at 09:01:34 on Sat, 2 Jun 2018,
tim... <tims_n...@yahoo.com> remarked:
>>>There's a genuine market in replacement engines from cars that have
>>>been written off in accidents that only damaged the car's structure
>>
>> I know, but this manufacturer's policy appears to break that business
>>model.
>
>But surely the "we want to avoid unnecessary waste" EU ought to be
>legislating to force manufactures to allow it.
>
>But presumably lobbying by big business has been allowed to win here?
It seems the manufacturer won the argument by playing the "anti-crime"
card.
>(and that's not an anti EU comment, I support the principle of avoiding
>wastefully throwing away things. It's the fact that lobbying from some
>sectors of industry wins and from others, it doesn't, that I don't like
>- it ought to be a level playing field.)
--
Roland Perry
tim... <tims_n...@yahoo.com> remarked:
>>>There's a genuine market in replacement engines from cars that have
>>>been written off in accidents that only damaged the car's structure
>>
>> I know, but this manufacturer's policy appears to break that business
>>model.
>
>But surely the "we want to avoid unnecessary waste" EU ought to be
>legislating to force manufactures to allow it.
>
>But presumably lobbying by big business has been allowed to win here?
card.
>(and that's not an anti EU comment, I support the principle of avoiding
>wastefully throwing away things. It's the fact that lobbying from some
>sectors of industry wins and from others, it doesn't, that I don't like
>- it ought to be a level playing field.)
Roland Perry
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Jun 2, 2018, 12:13:19 PM6/2/18
to
lordgnome
Jun 2, 2018, 1:36:08 PM6/2/18
to
On 02/06/2018 15:07, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
> Show me a colour laser that can print a photograph. And show me a colour laser that isn't 5 times more expensive to run. Think of the printer, the toner, the fuser, the drum, all these things need replacing.
>
Mine can reproduce an excellent photo on plain paper, which is of better
> Show me a colour laser that can print a photograph. And show me a colour laser that isn't 5 times more expensive to run. Think of the printer, the toner, the fuser, the drum, all these things need replacing.
>
quality than using an inkie and expensive paper. It has had some rugged
use over several years and the only thing I have had to replace is a
toner cartridge - they seem to last for ages.
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Jun 2, 2018, 5:08:24 PM6/2/18
to
That's 2.5p or 0.9p per page. I get 0.2p per page off my inkjet (cheaper than the paper itself!). Oh and your drum and fuser wear out......
Fredxx
Jun 2, 2018, 5:10:00 PM6/2/18
to
On 02/06/2018 15:07, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
print a photo more cheaply than you ever can with an ink-jet.
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Jun 2, 2018, 5:10:18 PM6/2/18
to
On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 18:35:56 +0100, lordgnome <l...@nospam.null> wrote:
Roland Perry
Jun 3, 2018, 2:39:34 AM6/3/18
to
In message <op.zjzsz...@red.lan>, at 18:46:26 on Sat, 2 Jun 2018,
Long ago. Your problem sounds like it was with whatever was generating
the picture.
But let's be clear about the detail - colour lasers are better than
inkjets when printing on regular paper, it's only when using the special
photo-paper that inkjets overtake them.
--
Roland Perry
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <now...@somewear.co.uk> remarked:
the picture.
But let's be clear about the detail - colour lasers are better than
inkjets when printing on regular paper, it's only when using the special
photo-paper that inkjets overtake them.
--
Roland Perry
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Jun 3, 2018, 4:20:44 AM6/3/18
to
Sara Merriman
Jun 3, 2018, 4:21:29 AM6/3/18
to
In article <op.zjy83...@red.lan>, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
<now...@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
[continuous ink]
> > They're a great idea, but some printers need bits chopping off to get
> > the feeds in, and if the printer is somewhere you can see it everyday,
> > they can look ugly. Of course that matters more to some than others.
>
> It didn't on mine, or anyone's for that matter. The silicone ink tubes are
> pretty thin and simply run into the area you open to access the heads or
> cartridges. It means the door is left 3mm open, which obviously you don't
> notice.
I would - it would drive my potty.
<now...@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
[continuous ink]
> > They're a great idea, but some printers need bits chopping off to get
> > the feeds in, and if the printer is somewhere you can see it everyday,
> > they can look ugly. Of course that matters more to some than others.
>
> It didn't on mine, or anyone's for that matter. The silicone ink tubes are
> pretty thin and simply run into the area you open to access the heads or
> cartridges. It means the door is left 3mm open, which obviously you don't
> notice.
>
> Even if you did need to cut a bit off, it's not that difficult to do a neat
> job of making a 3mm gap surely? If you're that fussy about looks, you'll
> also be skillful at doing things in a tidy way.
I wish!
> Even if you did need to cut a bit off, it's not that difficult to do a neat
> job of making a 3mm gap surely? If you're that fussy about looks, you'll
> also be skillful at doing things in a tidy way.
steve robinson
Jun 3, 2018, 5:46:59 AM6/3/18
to
colour toners , i have only ever changed the toners once in the last
4 years , the cost £143.00 plus change , i kept the old units which i
can now refill when required cost about £40.00
Laser printers are far more cost effective for general printing
Yellow
Jun 3, 2018, 10:46:16 AM6/3/18
to
On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 07:15:15 +0000 (UTC), Judith <m...@privacy.net> posted:
> electrocution.
Now is using a third party cartridge, or resettling the counter on a
genuine one, putting the user or risk of either fire or electrocution?
Is this really what Epson claim?
>
> On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 00:00:18 +0100, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
>
> > Epson prevents your printer from printing when it's ink pads are "at the
> > end of their life". You can reset these (and I have done once already)
> > by paying a third party money to give you a reset code. I've now
> On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 00:00:18 +0100, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
>
> > Epson prevents your printer from printing when it's ink pads are "at the
> > end of their life". You can reset these (and I have done once already)
> > reached the second time they've reached the "end of their life", so
> > clearly it's a load of rubbish, as they've already run for twice as long
> > as the printer thinks they should. The ink pads are just used to
> > collect waste ink during cleaning, and clearly the ink is water based
> > and just evaporates. No ink has spilled onto my desk and I wouldn't
> > care if any did, but Epson want me to buy a new printer. Is this not
> > amounting to theft of my property? You can't just brick a device that's
> > owned by your customer, surely?
>
>
> The printer is designed to do this to prevent the risk of fire or
> > clearly it's a load of rubbish, as they've already run for twice as long
> > as the printer thinks they should. The ink pads are just used to
> > collect waste ink during cleaning, and clearly the ink is water based
> > and just evaporates. No ink has spilled onto my desk and I wouldn't
> > care if any did, but Epson want me to buy a new printer. Is this not
> > amounting to theft of my property? You can't just brick a device that's
> > owned by your customer, surely?
>
>
> electrocution.
Now is using a third party cartridge, or resettling the counter on a
genuine one, putting the user or risk of either fire or electrocution?
Is this really what Epson claim?
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Jun 3, 2018, 5:05:16 PM6/3/18
to
On Sun, 03 Jun 2018 07:37:33 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <op.zjzsz...@red.lan>, at 18:46:26 on Sat, 2 Jun 2018,
> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <now...@somewear.co.uk> remarked:
>> On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 18:35:56 +0100, lordgnome <l...@nospam.null> wrote:
>>
>>> On 02/06/2018 15:07, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
>>>
>>>> Show me a colour laser that can print a photograph. And show me a
>>>> colour laser that isn't 5 times more expensive to run. Think of the
>>>> printer, the toner, the fuser, the drum, all these things need replacing.
>>>
>>> Mine can reproduce an excellent photo on plain paper, which is of better
>>> quality than using an inkie and expensive paper. It has had some rugged
>>> use over several years and the only thing I have had to replace is a
>>> toner cartridge - they seem to last for ages.
>>
>> The last colour laser I used was about 5 years ago, an HP. It most
>> certainly didn't make anything like a photo realistic output, simply
>> because toner powder doesn't flow like wet ink, so the colours don't
>> mix - you get something akin to a 256 colour graphics card output, and
>> you can clearly see the dithering. Have they come up with a new
>> technology since then?
>
> Long ago. Your problem sounds like it was with whatever was generating
> the picture.
No, I spoke to designers of laser printers at the time and they said it's simply not possible as toner by it's very nature is a dry powder, it simply does not mix like ink droplets do. If you put a cyan drop and a yellow drop of ink on some paper, they mix together and make green. With toner, they just sit beside each other. The only way round it would be to have exceedingly fine toner so you couldn't see the dithering, like TV sets do - there is only red green and blue light, and if you look closely they're seperate.
> In message <op.zjzsz...@red.lan>, at 18:46:26 on Sat, 2 Jun 2018,
> Jimmy Wilkinson Knife <now...@somewear.co.uk> remarked:
>> On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 18:35:56 +0100, lordgnome <l...@nospam.null> wrote:
>>
>>> On 02/06/2018 15:07, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
>>>
>>>> Show me a colour laser that can print a photograph. And show me a
>>>> colour laser that isn't 5 times more expensive to run. Think of the
>>>> printer, the toner, the fuser, the drum, all these things need replacing.
>>>
>>> Mine can reproduce an excellent photo on plain paper, which is of better
>>> quality than using an inkie and expensive paper. It has had some rugged
>>> use over several years and the only thing I have had to replace is a
>>> toner cartridge - they seem to last for ages.
>>
>> The last colour laser I used was about 5 years ago, an HP. It most
>> certainly didn't make anything like a photo realistic output, simply
>> because toner powder doesn't flow like wet ink, so the colours don't
>> mix - you get something akin to a 256 colour graphics card output, and
>> you can clearly see the dithering. Have they come up with a new
>> technology since then?
>
> Long ago. Your problem sounds like it was with whatever was generating
> the picture.
> But let's be clear about the detail - colour lasers are better than
> inkjets when printing on regular paper, it's only when using the special
> photo-paper that inkjets overtake them.
pensive hamster
Jun 4, 2018, 1:54:50 AM6/4/18
to
On Saturday, 2 June 2018 13:20:15 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
[...]
controversial among photographers) says - find a photo lab that
uses Fuji Crystal Archive photo paper.
https://kenrockwell.com/tech/printers.htm
'Inkjet printers went obsolete back in 2004. ...
'This is because today we can get much better prints on real,
light-sensitive, chemically-processed photo paper at almost any
lab including Wal-Mart, Costco and Target. They, and probably
your local camera store, have all bought the $50,000 and up
machines required to print electronically onto real photo paper.
Adorama Lab's printers cost $150,000 each and the ones at
Calypso cost about $500,000.
'I'm defining photo paper as light sensitive, chemically processed
paper. Inkjets spit ink onto plain paper. I'll reserve this prejudice.
I prefer the look of real photo paper for my work.
'... I use an expensive pro lab like Calypso today because they have
the ability to print on Fuji Super Gloss at any random size I want.'
-------------------------------
There are photo labs in the UK that use Fuji Crystal Archive photo
paper: eg:
https://photo.jessops.com/prints/photo-prints/
Professionally printed on Fuji Crystal Archive photo paper
6" x 4" from 6p
https://www.photobox.co.uk/shop/prints/standard-prints
etc.
That way you sidestep any questions about whether inkjet
manufacturers' business models are strictly legal (well, I had to
try and work in some legal relevance).
[...]
> Should I ever actually need anything printed in colour, I stick it on a
> memory stick and get her to print to for me (or at least I did when I used
> to drive past her house on a frequent basis - not got a current solution
> :-()
This is what Ken Rockwell (an opinionated American, and sometimes
> memory stick and get her to print to for me (or at least I did when I used
> to drive past her house on a frequent basis - not got a current solution
> :-()
controversial among photographers) says - find a photo lab that
uses Fuji Crystal Archive photo paper.
https://kenrockwell.com/tech/printers.htm
'Inkjet printers went obsolete back in 2004. ...
'This is because today we can get much better prints on real,
light-sensitive, chemically-processed photo paper at almost any
lab including Wal-Mart, Costco and Target. They, and probably
your local camera store, have all bought the $50,000 and up
machines required to print electronically onto real photo paper.
Adorama Lab's printers cost $150,000 each and the ones at
Calypso cost about $500,000.
'I'm defining photo paper as light sensitive, chemically processed
paper. Inkjets spit ink onto plain paper. I'll reserve this prejudice.
I prefer the look of real photo paper for my work.
'... I use an expensive pro lab like Calypso today because they have
the ability to print on Fuji Super Gloss at any random size I want.'
-------------------------------
There are photo labs in the UK that use Fuji Crystal Archive photo
paper: eg:
https://photo.jessops.com/prints/photo-prints/
Professionally printed on Fuji Crystal Archive photo paper
6" x 4" from 6p
https://www.photobox.co.uk/shop/prints/standard-prints
etc.
That way you sidestep any questions about whether inkjet
manufacturers' business models are strictly legal (well, I had to
try and work in some legal relevance).
Mike Scott
Jun 4, 2018, 4:45:15 AM6/4/18
to
On 02/06/18 22:12, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
....
double-sided and would print on a CD as well. Very handy.
Except one day it announced one of the colours was empty. So, quick
replacement, it ran the nozzle-cleaning routine, then announced a second
cartridge was empty. OK, replace that. Nozzle clean; yes a third colour
was now empty. It went through the full set of four cartridges doing its
cleaning. And the first was now empty. Again.
£50 in cartridges just to clean the nozzles.
I never did get my printing done.
The printer went down the tip for recycling -- I refused to inflict it
on anyone else.
We now have a b/w networked laser and haven't looked back. Colour prints
come from a local photo printer. And I write on the discs; it's quicker
anyway :-}
--
Mike Scott (unet2 <at> [deletethis] scottsonline.org.uk)
Harlow Essex
"The only way is Brexit" -- anon.
....
>> If I want a photo printed there are a number of online places that can
>> print a photo more cheaply than you ever can with an ink-jet.
>
> I don't believe you. It costs virtually nothing to print a photo with an inkjet. Less than the petrol to drive to the shop for a start.
>
I used to have a nice inkjet - took 3 colour plus black cartridges;
>> print a photo more cheaply than you ever can with an ink-jet.
>
> I don't believe you. It costs virtually nothing to print a photo with an inkjet. Less than the petrol to drive to the shop for a start.
>
double-sided and would print on a CD as well. Very handy.
Except one day it announced one of the colours was empty. So, quick
replacement, it ran the nozzle-cleaning routine, then announced a second
cartridge was empty. OK, replace that. Nozzle clean; yes a third colour
was now empty. It went through the full set of four cartridges doing its
cleaning. And the first was now empty. Again.
£50 in cartridges just to clean the nozzles.
I never did get my printing done.
The printer went down the tip for recycling -- I refused to inflict it
on anyone else.
We now have a b/w networked laser and haven't looked back. Colour prints
come from a local photo printer. And I write on the discs; it's quicker
anyway :-}
--
Mike Scott (unet2 <at> [deletethis] scottsonline.org.uk)
Harlow Essex
"The only way is Brexit" -- anon.
Roland Perry
Jun 4, 2018, 5:14:48 AM6/4/18
to
In message <pf2s7r$nlk$1...@dont-email.me>, at 09:11:39 on Mon, 4 Jun 2018,
Mike Scott <usen...@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> remarked:
>I used to have a nice inkjet - took 3 colour plus black cartridges;
I've got one of those.
>double-sided and would print on a CD as well. Very handy.
>
>Except one day it announced one of the colours was empty. So, quick
>replacement, it ran the nozzle-cleaning routine, then announced a
>second cartridge was empty. OK, replace that. Nozzle clean; yes a third
>colour was now empty. It went through the full set of four cartridges
>doing its cleaning.
When mine decides a colour needs replacing, it shows you the ink level
in all four, so you can decide if it's worth doing several.
>And the first was now empty. Again.
That's clearly some kind of local fault with the machine.
>£50 in cartridges just to clean the nozzles.
I pay about £1.50 a cartridge for mine (clones to fit Epson).
--
Roland Perry
Mike Scott <usen...@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> remarked:
>I used to have a nice inkjet - took 3 colour plus black cartridges;
>double-sided and would print on a CD as well. Very handy.
>
>Except one day it announced one of the colours was empty. So, quick
>replacement, it ran the nozzle-cleaning routine, then announced a
>second cartridge was empty. OK, replace that. Nozzle clean; yes a third
>colour was now empty. It went through the full set of four cartridges
>doing its cleaning.
in all four, so you can decide if it's worth doing several.
>And the first was now empty. Again.
>£50 in cartridges just to clean the nozzles.
--
Roland Perry
Martin Brown
Jun 4, 2018, 7:21:42 AM6/4/18
to
On 03/06/2018 10:46, steve robinson wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 18:51:25 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
> <now...@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 18:35:56 +0100, lordgnome <l...@nospam.null>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 02/06/2018 15:07, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
>>>
>>>> Show me a colour laser that can print a photograph. And show
>>>> me a colour laser that isn't 5 times more expensive to run.
>>>> Think of the printer, the toner, the fuser, the drum, all these
>>>> things need replacing.
Dell 1320CN was one of the first that could print photoreal at a quality
> On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 18:51:25 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
> <now...@somewear.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 18:35:56 +0100, lordgnome <l...@nospam.null>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 02/06/2018 15:07, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
>>>
>>>> Show me a colour laser that can print a photograph. And show
>>>> me a colour laser that isn't 5 times more expensive to run.
>>>> Think of the printer, the toner, the fuser, the drum, all these
>>>> things need replacing.
that would rival many inkjets back when it first came out. It had a
minor problem which I exploits in that it was the devils own job to put
together and many people trashed the drums assembling it. This meant
there was a huge surplus of orphanned toner cartridges on the secondhand
market and by the time they dried up the cloners had moved in.
If you print full page images then you burn through toner a lot faster
than when you are printing normal content with mostly white background.
>>> Mine can reproduce an excellent photo on plain paper, which is of
>>> better quality than using an inkie and expensive paper. It has
>>> had some rugged use over several years and the only thing I have
>>> had to replace is a toner cartridge - they seem to last for
>>> ages.
>>
>> 3500 pages per black toner, 2800 per colour last time I checked.
>> But the cartridges are £300 per pack of genuine, and £100 per pack
>> of fakes.
cheaper that I would have to pay for refill toner at the moment.
>>
>> That's 2.5p or 0.9p per page. I get 0.2p per page off my inkjet
>> (cheaper than the paper itself!). Oh and your drum and fuser wear
>> out......
>
> I get 8000 pages from the black toner and 10000 pages from the
> colour toners , i have only ever changed the toners once in the
> last 4 years , the cost £143.00 plus change , i kept the old units
> which i can now refill when required cost about £40.00
>
> Laser printers are far more cost effective for general printing
Indeed. Although there are some things that a good inkjet can do better.
>> That's 2.5p or 0.9p per page. I get 0.2p per page off my inkjet
>> (cheaper than the paper itself!). Oh and your drum and fuser wear
>> out......
>
> I get 8000 pages from the black toner and 10000 pages from the
> colour toners , i have only ever changed the toners once in the
> last 4 years , the cost £143.00 plus change , i kept the old units
> which i can now refill when required cost about £40.00
>
> Laser printers are far more cost effective for general printing
Printing high quality photographic images on glossy paper for example.
A3 colour poster printing is the main thing I use an inkjet for.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Jun 4, 2018, 9:01:27 AM6/4/18
to
https://epson.com/Support/wa00369
--------------------------------------------
Please explain the message I am getting in my printer driver that says parts inside my printer are reaching their end of service life.
Like so many other products, all Epson consumer ink jet products have a finite life span due to component wear during normal use. At some point, the product will reach a condition where either satisfactory print quality cannot be maintained or components have reached the end of their usable life. This is the normal product life cycle for highly mechanical devices like printers. This message is a warning that certain parts have reached the end of their usable life and that your printer will no longer work until it is serviced.
If you want to continue using the printer, Epson recommends having the printer serviced at an Epson Authorized Customer Care Center. In most cases, when this message occurs, other printer components also may be near the end of usable life and satisfactory print quality cannot be maintained. Most consumers who are out of warranty elect to replace a lower-cost printer when they receive an end of life service message.
--------------------------------------------
I received the message "A part inside your printer is at the end of its service life. Service is required." What should I do?
The Maintenance Reset Utility was already used on your product. The Maintenance Reset Utility cannot be used again in order to ensure the proper operation of our devices to minimize the risks of property damage or personal injury. Most consumers who are out of warranty elect to replace the printer because replacement of ink pads may not be a good investment for lower-cost printers. In most cases, when this message occurs, the printer's other components also may be near the end of usable life. If you want to continue using the printer, Epson recommends having the printer serviced at an Epson Authorized Customer Care Center.
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Jun 4, 2018, 1:57:32 PM6/4/18
to
On Mon, 04 Jun 2018 00:33:55 +0100, pensive hamster <pensive...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> On Saturday, 2 June 2018 13:20:15 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
> [...]
>> Should I ever actually need anything printed in colour, I stick it on a
>> memory stick and get her to print to for me (or at least I did when I used
>> to drive past her house on a frequent basis - not got a current solution
>> :-()
>
> This is what Ken Rockwell (an opinionated American, and sometimes
> controversial among photographers) says - find a photo lab that
> uses Fuji Crystal Archive photo paper.
>
> https://kenrockwell.com/tech/printers.htm
>
> 'Inkjet printers went obsolete back in 2004. ...
>
> 'This is because today we can get much better prints on real,
> light-sensitive, chemically-processed photo paper at almost any
> lab including Wal-Mart, Costco and Target.
This seems rather like going back to film cameras....
> On Saturday, 2 June 2018 13:20:15 UTC+1, tim... wrote:
> [...]
>> Should I ever actually need anything printed in colour, I stick it on a
>> memory stick and get her to print to for me (or at least I did when I used
>> to drive past her house on a frequent basis - not got a current solution
>> :-()
>
> This is what Ken Rockwell (an opinionated American, and sometimes
> controversial among photographers) says - find a photo lab that
> uses Fuji Crystal Archive photo paper.
>
> https://kenrockwell.com/tech/printers.htm
>
> 'Inkjet printers went obsolete back in 2004. ...
>
> 'This is because today we can get much better prints on real,
> light-sensitive, chemically-processed photo paper at almost any
> lab including Wal-Mart, Costco and Target.
Mike Scott
Jun 4, 2018, 1:57:43 PM6/4/18
to
On 04/06/18 10:13, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <pf2s7r$nlk$1...@dont-email.me>, at 09:11:39 on Mon, 4 Jun 2018,
> Mike Scott <usen...@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> remarked:
>
>> I used to have a nice inkjet - took 3 colour plus black cartridges;
>
> I've got one of those.
>
>> double-sided and would print on a CD as well. Very handy.
>>
>> Except one day it announced one of the colours was empty. So, quick
>> replacement, it ran the nozzle-cleaning routine, then announced a
>> second cartridge was empty. OK, replace that. Nozzle clean; yes a
>> third colour was now empty. It went through the full set of four
>> cartridges doing its cleaning.
>
> When mine decides a colour needs replacing, it shows you the ink level
> in all four, so you can decide if it's worth doing several.
>
>> And the first was now empty. Again.
>
> That's clearly some kind of local fault with the machine.
Maybe. But no earthly way to tell. And hardly worth the cost of repairs
> In message <pf2s7r$nlk$1...@dont-email.me>, at 09:11:39 on Mon, 4 Jun 2018,
> Mike Scott <usen...@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> remarked:
>
>> I used to have a nice inkjet - took 3 colour plus black cartridges;
>
> I've got one of those.
>
>> double-sided and would print on a CD as well. Very handy.
>>
>> Except one day it announced one of the colours was empty. So, quick
>> replacement, it ran the nozzle-cleaning routine, then announced a
>> second cartridge was empty. OK, replace that. Nozzle clean; yes a
>> third colour was now empty. It went through the full set of four
>> cartridges doing its cleaning.
>
> When mine decides a colour needs replacing, it shows you the ink level
> in all four, so you can decide if it's worth doing several.
>
>> And the first was now empty. Again.
>
> That's clearly some kind of local fault with the machine.
if that were the issue.
>
>> £50 in cartridges just to clean the nozzles.
>
> I pay about £1.50 a cartridge for mine (clones to fit Epson).
sure cheap clones were available at the time.
Martin Brown
Jun 4, 2018, 1:58:14 PM6/4/18
to
quality may not be guaranteed as the parts wear out. It is generally the
case that after about 3 years a new cheaper inkjet printer will outclass
one bought for the same price. They have improved enormously with time.
>
> Like so many other products, all Epson consumer ink jet products have a
> finite life span due to component wear during normal use. At some point,
> the product will reach a condition where either satisfactory print
> quality cannot be maintained or components have reached the end of their
> usable life. This is the normal product life cycle for highly mechanical
> devices like printers. This message is a warning that certain parts have
> reached the end of their usable life and that your printer will no
> longer work until it is serviced.
You may find a third party hack software reset that unbricks such a
> Like so many other products, all Epson consumer ink jet products have a
> finite life span due to component wear during normal use. At some point,
> the product will reach a condition where either satisfactory print
> quality cannot be maintained or components have reached the end of their
> usable life. This is the normal product life cycle for highly mechanical
> devices like printers. This message is a warning that certain parts have
> reached the end of their usable life and that your printer will no
> longer work until it is serviced.
"failed" printer. It does strike me that this sort of thing might fail
under the terms of the computer misuse act. Many business printers are
sufficiently like a computer that they can catch certain malware! eg
https://www.securityweek.com/hackers-can-abuse-hp-enterprise-printers-storage
and
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/jul/23/hacking-attack-printers
>
> If you want to continue using the printer, Epson recommends having the
> printer serviced at an Epson Authorized Customer Care Center. In most
> cases, when this message occurs, other printer components also may be
> near the end of usable life and satisfactory print quality cannot be
> maintained. Most consumers who are out of warranty elect to replace a
> lower-cost printer when they receive an end of life service message.
> --------------------------------------------
> I received the message "A part inside your printer is at the end of its
> service life. Service is required." What should I do?
>
> The Maintenance Reset Utility was already used on your product. The
> Maintenance Reset Utility cannot be used again in order to ensure the
> proper operation of our devices to minimize the risks of property damage
> or personal injury. Most consumers who are out of warranty elect to
> replace the printer because replacement of ink pads may not be a good
> investment for lower-cost printers. In most cases, when this message
> occurs, the printer's other components also may be near the end of
> usable life. If you want to continue using the printer, Epson recommends
> having the printer serviced at an Epson Authorized Customer Care Center.
It sounds like it was written by an American lawyer.
> If you want to continue using the printer, Epson recommends having the
> printer serviced at an Epson Authorized Customer Care Center. In most
> cases, when this message occurs, other printer components also may be
> near the end of usable life and satisfactory print quality cannot be
> maintained. Most consumers who are out of warranty elect to replace a
> lower-cost printer when they receive an end of life service message.
> --------------------------------------------
> I received the message "A part inside your printer is at the end of its
> service life. Service is required." What should I do?
>
> The Maintenance Reset Utility was already used on your product. The
> Maintenance Reset Utility cannot be used again in order to ensure the
> proper operation of our devices to minimize the risks of property damage
> or personal injury. Most consumers who are out of warranty elect to
> replace the printer because replacement of ink pads may not be a good
> investment for lower-cost printers. In most cases, when this message
> occurs, the printer's other components also may be near the end of
> usable life. If you want to continue using the printer, Epson recommends
> having the printer serviced at an Epson Authorized Customer Care Center.
Risk of property damage or personal injury by an inkjet is mainly
limited to ink spills, trapped fingers and papercuts.
Laser printers can at least in principle catch fire or at the very least
scorch paper if things go wrong internally. I have had a fax machine go
up once - I unplugged it before the smoke turned to actual flames.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
pensive hamster
Jun 5, 2018, 1:30:31 AM6/5/18
to
On Monday, 4 June 2018 18:57:32 UTC+1, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
I think they are better prints because, using dye layers, they
can make light-sensitive photo paper with a much finer grain
than any inkjet printer.
can make light-sensitive photo paper with a much finer grain
than any inkjet printer.
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Jun 5, 2018, 3:04:31 PM6/5/18
to
pensive hamster
Jun 5, 2018, 5:49:29 PM6/5/18
to
On Tuesday, 5 June 2018 20:04:31 UTC+1, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
That's for a different reason. Potentially, colour monitors can
display 60 million colours (or whatever 256 x 256 x 256 is). Inkjets
don't usually have more than 10 different ink colours, so they
have to use up some of their dots to mix the inbetween colours.
display 60 million colours (or whatever 256 x 256 x 256 is). Inkjets
don't usually have more than 10 different ink colours, so they
have to use up some of their dots to mix the inbetween colours.
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Jun 7, 2018, 5:09:56 AM6/7/18
to
Martin Brown
Jun 7, 2018, 6:21:29 AM6/7/18
to
The only ink printer technologies that can match that are dye diffusion
and solid ink wax based ones where the ink is mixed to the colour.
The Fuji archive prints will outlast anything that an inkjet produces in
terms of stability in light. I have examples of ten year old of both
forms of printing that have been on continuous display. The inkjet
prints are now in quite poor faded condition with the yellow dye
bleached out but the Fuji crystal archive prints are still going strong.
Inkjet output is pointilist in nature if you look at it with a big
enough magnifying glass and hides a pattern of barely visible yellow
dots that signs all printed documents with the printers ID.
It is only really visible with a loupe on a patch of white and with the
right blue biassed lighting to improve the contrast.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
pensive hamster
Jun 7, 2018, 10:42:09 AM6/7/18
to
On Thursday, 7 June 2018 10:09:56 UTC+1, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Jun 2018 21:35:02 +0100, pensive hamster wrote:
[...]
which is the range that a single 8-bit byte can offer.
So the number of possible RGB colour mixes or combinations
is 256 x 256 x 256 = 16,777,216
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGB_color_model#RGB_and_displays
'...Each pixel on the screen is built by driving three small and very
close but still separated RGB light sources. At common viewing
distance, the separate sources are indistinguishable, which tricks
the eye to see a given solid color [for each pixel].'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGB_color_model#Numeric_representations
> On Tue, 05 Jun 2018 21:35:02 +0100, pensive hamster wrote:
[...]
> > Potentially, colour monitors can
> > display 60 million colours (or whatever 256 x 256 x 256 is). Inkjets
> > don't usually have more than 10 different ink colours, so they
> > have to use up some of their dots to mix the inbetween colours.
>
> Huh? A monitor has R, G, B. Three colours. A printer has C, M, Y, K (and on photo printers two more), that's four or six colours. More to mix from than the monitor.
No, on a monitor, each colour has 256 possible levels of intensity (0 - 255),
> > display 60 million colours (or whatever 256 x 256 x 256 is). Inkjets
> > don't usually have more than 10 different ink colours, so they
> > have to use up some of their dots to mix the inbetween colours.
>
> Huh? A monitor has R, G, B. Three colours. A printer has C, M, Y, K (and on photo printers two more), that's four or six colours. More to mix from than the monitor.
which is the range that a single 8-bit byte can offer.
So the number of possible RGB colour mixes or combinations
is 256 x 256 x 256 = 16,777,216
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGB_color_model#RGB_and_displays
'...Each pixel on the screen is built by driving three small and very
close but still separated RGB light sources. At common viewing
distance, the separate sources are indistinguishable, which tricks
the eye to see a given solid color [for each pixel].'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGB_color_model#Numeric_representations
Roland Perry
Jun 7, 2018, 1:11:44 PM6/7/18
to
In message <pfb0v2$1m9$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 11:21:18 on Thu, 7 Jun
--
Roland Perry
>Never the less a monitor can make *any* colour in each of its pixels.
No, it's mixing adjacent RGB pixels.
--
Roland Perry
Judith
Jun 8, 2018, 6:56:08 AM6/8/18
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On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 07:15:15 +0000 (UTC), Judith <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 00:00:18 +0100, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
>
>> Epson prevents your printer from printing when it's ink pads are "at the
>> end of their life". You can reset these (and I have done once already)
>> by paying a third party money to give you a reset code. I've now
>> reached the second time they've reached the "end of their life", so
>> clearly it's a load of rubbish, as they've already run for twice as long
>> as the printer thinks they should. The ink pads are just used to
>> collect waste ink during cleaning, and clearly the ink is water based
>> and just evaporates. No ink has spilled onto my desk and I wouldn't
>> care if any did, but Epson want me to buy a new printer. Is this not
>> amounting to theft of my property? You can't just brick a device that's
>> owned by your customer, surely?
>
>
>The printer is designed to do this to prevent the risk of fire or
>electrocution. Resetting the counter voids the warranty, increases the
>On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 00:00:18 +0100, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
>
>> Epson prevents your printer from printing when it's ink pads are "at the
>> end of their life". You can reset these (and I have done once already)
>> by paying a third party money to give you a reset code. I've now
>> reached the second time they've reached the "end of their life", so
>> clearly it's a load of rubbish, as they've already run for twice as long
>> as the printer thinks they should. The ink pads are just used to
>> collect waste ink during cleaning, and clearly the ink is water based
>> and just evaporates. No ink has spilled onto my desk and I wouldn't
>> care if any did, but Epson want me to buy a new printer. Is this not
>> amounting to theft of my property? You can't just brick a device that's
>> owned by your customer, surely?
>
>
>The printer is designed to do this to prevent the risk of fire or
>risk and absolves Epson of liability.
>
>Very much a case of "caveat emptor" : next time do better research before
>buying.
Why thanks you Judith <m...@privacy.net>
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