Printing Copied Currency Notes

[Judith]

I friend of mine owed me ten pounds - she scanned a note and sent me the PDF as
a joke

(Let's keep it legal - I guess that she has broken the law)

I had heard that some printers/scanners would not handle currency - so I
printed out the note.

It printed 90% of it, then stopped and printed out : www.rulesforuse.org

I also tried to find what it was in the notes which stopped the printing of
same - and found details of the "EURion constellation"

Fascinating.

[Simon Finnigan]

I was just telling and showing a friend about this the other day. They
hadn't even noticed the marks in question on any bank notes, but now they
will be keeping an eye out on all currency they get.

[GB]

Whilst I can see the advantages for the central banks in implementing this,
how did they lean on the manufacturers of the hardware and software to
implement it?



--
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[Percy Picacity]

"GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote in
news:4e7efe12$0$2485$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk:

> Simon Finnigan wrote:
>> Judith <jmsmi...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> I friend of mine owed me ten pounds - she scanned a note and
>>> sent me the PDF as a joke
>>>
>>> (Let's keep it legal - I guess that she has broken the law)
>>>
>>> I had heard that some printers/scanners would not handle
>>> currency - so I printed out the note.
>>>
>>> It printed 90% of it, then stopped and printed out :
>>> www.rulesforuse.org
>>>
>>> I also tried to find what it was in the notes which stopped the
>>> printing of same - and found details of the "EURion
>>> constellation"
>>>
>>> Fascinating.
>>
>> I was just telling and showing a friend about this the other day.
>> They hadn't even noticed the marks in question on any bank notes,
>> but now they
>> will be keeping an eye out on all currency they get.
>
> Whilst I can see the advantages for the central banks in
> implementing this, how did they lean on the manufacturers of the
> hardware and software to implement it?
>
>
>

Perhaps they were threatened with a law against selling
counterfeiting equipment?

--
Percy Picacity

[Roland Perry]

In message <Xns9F6B7BFDC6D...@208.90.168.18>, at 12:15:10 on
Sun, 25 Sep 2011, Percy Picacity <k...@under.the.invalid> remarked:

>> Whilst I can see the advantages for the central banks in
>> implementing this, how did they lean on the manufacturers of the
>> hardware and software to implement it?
>>
>Perhaps they were threatened with a law against selling
>counterfeiting equipment?

Something like that I expect. It's called "self regulation", or in other
words "implement this voluntarily, or we'll pass a law".

--
Roland Perry

[Sam]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 11:15:03 +0100, GB wrote:

> Simon Finnigan wrote:
>> Judith <jmsmi...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> I friend of mine owed me ten pounds - she scanned a note and sent me
>>> the PDF as a joke
>>>
>>> (Let's keep it legal - I guess that she has broken the law)
>>>
>>> I had heard that some printers/scanners would not handle currency - so
>>> I printed out the note.
>>>
>>> It printed 90% of it, then stopped and printed out :
>>> www.rulesforuse.org
>>>
>>> I also tried to find what it was in the notes which stopped the
>>> printing of same - and found details of the "EURion constellation"
>>>
>>> Fascinating.
>>
>> I was just telling and showing a friend about this the other day. They
>> hadn't even noticed the marks in question on any bank notes, but now
>> they
>> will be keeping an eye out on all currency they get.
>
> Whilst I can see the advantages for the central banks in implementing
> this, how did they lean on the manufacturers of the hardware and
> software to implement it?

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/news/2004/01/61890

> With digital counterfeiting on the rise worldwide, partly due to
> software like Photoshop, Adobe voluntarily chose to work with
> international banks to help solve the problem, said Kevin Connor,
> Adobe's director of product management for professional digital imaging.
>
> "As a market leader and a good corporate citizen, this just seems
> like the right thing to do," he said.

[Mark Goodge]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 12:15:09 +0100, Sam put finger to keyboard and typed:

>On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 11:15:03 +0100, GB wrote:
>>
>> Whilst I can see the advantages for the central banks in implementing
>> this, how did they lean on the manufacturers of the hardware and
>> software to implement it?
>
>http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/news/2004/01/61890

Which says, inter alia, that

"The inner workings of the counterfeit deterrence system are so secret that
not even Adobe is privy to them. The Central Bank Counterfeit Deterrence
Group provides the software as a black box without revealing its precise
inner workings"

Which means, of course, than the detection system cannot exist in any open
source software. That makes finding a workaround so trivial that it hardly
seems worth the effort of having it in the first place.

Mark
--
Blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
Stuff: http://www.good-stuff.co.uk

[Percy Picacity]

Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in
news:1edu77dol1rs68is6...@news.markshouse.net:

Does not the same software live in the firmware of commercially
available colour printers?

--
Percy Picacity

[Jethro]

On a related note, is there any *UK* law which would make an offence to
(a) disable the system, (b) tell others how to disable the system, or (c)
sell a printer/copier which did not have a functioning system ....

[David Hearn]

On 25/09/2011 15:15, Mark Goodge wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 12:15:09 +0100, Sam put finger to keyboard and typed:
>
>> On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 11:15:03 +0100, GB wrote:
>>>
>>> Whilst I can see the advantages for the central banks in implementing
>>> this, how did they lean on the manufacturers of the hardware and
>>> software to implement it?
>>
>> http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/news/2004/01/61890
>
> Which says, inter alia, that
>
> "The inner workings of the counterfeit deterrence system are so secret that
> not even Adobe is privy to them. The Central Bank Counterfeit Deterrence
> Group provides the software as a black box without revealing its precise
> inner workings"
>
> Which means, of course, than the detection system cannot exist in any open
> source software.

And if it was included in open source software, then it would be fairly
trivial to just comment out that section and rebuild.

D

[Clive Page]

On 25/09/2011 20:55, Jethro wrote:
> On a related note, is there any *UK* law which would make an offence to
> (a) disable the system, (b) tell others how to disable the system, or (c)
> sell a printer/copier which did not have a functioning system ....

On another related note, it's not just currency notes. Some time ago I
was asked to provide a copy of my driving licence (to be on a list of
approved drivers for my employer). Since the licence is not a
monochrome document, I duly used an HP scanner/inkjet printer to produce
a copy in colour: unfortunately the copy came out with the word VOID
printed in large letters all over it. I supplied this - it seemed to be
approved by the powers that be. But it does mean that my (many years
old) driving licence is also fitted with the pattern, whatever it is,
that triggers the printer to refuse to print a true copy. That could be
annoying.

--
Clive Page

[GB]

Hmm, maybe it's just the colour print engines? I just scanned a £20 note
with my almost-new Canon scanner, and it scanned perfectly. I then printed
it on my fairly old HP LJ2200 b/w printer and it printed it fine, too,
although in b/w only.

The shredder then happily chewed the printed pages into little bits.

[Andy Burns]

Clive Page wrote:

> Some time ago I was asked to provide a copy of my driving licence

> I duly used an HP scanner/inkjet printer to produce a copy in
> colour: unfortunately the copy came out with the word VOID printed in
> large letters all over it.

> it does mean that my (many years old) driving
> licence is also fitted with the pattern, whatever it is, that triggers
> the printer to refuse to print a true copy

Is yours one of the pink/green "origami" ones? Just looked at mine and
can't see the EURion marks which wikip claims were introduced on
banknotes around 1996, my licence which was re-issued for a change of
address in 1991.

There is a lot of microprinting of the words "Driver Vehicle Licencing
Centre" and DVLC in swirly patterns, which I assume is meant to cause
noticiable Moiré fringing when scanned, maybe this was intended to be
detected by scanners? If I can track down a Win7 64bit driver for my
ancient scanner I'll try later.

[Jon Ribbens]

On 2011-09-26, GB <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> Hmm, maybe it's just the colour print engines? I just scanned a £20 note
> with my almost-new Canon scanner, and it scanned perfectly. I then printed
> it on my fairly old HP LJ2200 b/w printer and it printed it fine, too,
> although in b/w only.
>
> The shredder then happily chewed the printed pages into little bits.

What!? You mean they haven't forced shredder manufacturers to include
circuits that detect if what you're trying to destroy is "evidence",
and to refuse to shred it if so? What about the paedophiles and
terrorists!? Think of the children! Something should be done!

[Dave]

That depends on the age of the printer.

My scanner dates back to the early 2000's and I have an HP 1018 B/W
laser printer, an HP colour laser printer and an HP colour photo printer.

A couple of years ago, I scanned and printed out £5-00, £10-00 and
£20-00 notes and printed them out to the 1018 and the colour laser
printer and showed them to friends I drink with and they were amazed at
the print quality.

Later, I decided on trying to print out them on my photo printer and it
refused and came back with a web site to visit. Similar to another's post.

Dave

[Adam Funk]

They should put a no-symbol around a cartoon bomb on the top, next to
the ones for "no paper clips", "no neckties", etc.

I'm not sure how you could design a non-obscene "no porn" symbol,
though.

[Clive Page]

On 26/09/2011 14:10, Andy Burns wrote:
> Is yours one of the pink/green "origami" ones? Just looked at mine and
> can't see the EURion marks which wikip claims were introduced on
> banknotes around 1996, my licence which was re-issued for a change of
> address in 1991.

It is indeed. I can't see any obvious marks, but it did trigger
something in the scanner.


--
Clive Page

[Andy Burns]

Clive Page wrote:

> On 26/09/2011 14:10, Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Is yours one of the pink/green "origami" ones?
>

> It is indeed. I can't see any obvious marks, but it did trigger
> something in the scanner.

Turns out my scanner is dead (and would apparently struggle under
Windows7) so I can't test it ...

[IanAl]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 21:15:02 +0100, Dave <dave...@btopenworld.com>
wrote:

>On 25/09/2011 17:20, Percy Picacity wrote:
>> Mark Goodge<use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in
>> news:1edu77dol1rs68is6...@news.markshouse.net:
>>
>>> On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 12:15:09 +0100, Sam put finger to keyboard and
>>> typed:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 11:15:03 +0100, GB wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Whilst I can see the advantages for the central banks in
>>>>> implementing this, how did they lean on the manufacturers of the
>>>>> hardware and software to implement it?
>>>>
>>>> http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/news/2004/01/61890
>>>
>>> Which says, inter alia, that
>>>
>>> "The inner workings of the counterfeit deterrence system are so
>>> secret that not even Adobe is privy to them. The Central Bank
>>> Counterfeit Deterrence Group provides the software as a black box
>>> without revealing its precise inner workings"
>>>
>>> Which means, of course, than the detection system cannot exist in
>>> any open source software. That makes finding a workaround so
>>> trivial that it hardly seems worth the effort of having it in the
>>> first place.
>>>
>> Does not the same software live in the firmware of commercially
>> available colour printers?
>
>That depends on the age of the printer.
>
>My scanner dates back to the early 2000's and I have an HP 1018 B/W
>laser printer, an HP colour laser printer and an HP colour photo printer.

The Del Photo 924 all-in-one isn't all that old. 2006 I think.

[Theo Markettos]

Clive Page <use...@page2.eu> wrote:
> On another related note, it's not just currency notes. Some time ago I
> was asked to provide a copy of my driving licence (to be on a list of
> approved drivers for my employer). Since the licence is not a
> monochrome document, I duly used an HP scanner/inkjet printer to produce
> a copy in colour: unfortunately the copy came out with the word VOID
> printed in large letters all over it. I supplied this - it seemed to be
> approved by the powers that be. But it does mean that my (many years
> old) driving licence is also fitted with the pattern, whatever it is,
> that triggers the printer to refuse to print a true copy. That could be
> annoying.

That may be an interference pattern on the licence. For example, the high
resolution dots are so-printed that you can't see any pattern. But when
they're low-pass filtered (as the photocopier/printer will do) it reveals
the pattern 'VOID'. The pattern was there all along, you just can't see it
with the naked eye. The same would happen with an antique printer, the
printer isn't doing anything special.

Theo

[the Omrud]

On 25/09/2011 17:20, Percy Picacity wrote:

FWIW I just made a copy of both sides of a £20 note without any comment
from the multi-function printer/fax/copier here on my desk. The device
is about one year old. I'm a bit disappointed - I have no use for a
photocopy of a £20 note, but I'd be interested to see a printer override
a copy and print a separate notice.

--
David

[GP Hardy]

"Mark Goodge" wrote...

> Which says, inter alia, that
>
> "The inner workings of the counterfeit deterrence system are so secret
> that not even Adobe is privy to them. The Central Bank Counterfeit
> Deterrence Group provides the software as a black box without revealing
> its precise inner workings"
>
> Which means, of course, than the detection system cannot exist in any open
> source software. That makes finding a workaround so trivial that it hardly
> seems worth the effort of having it in the first place.

It doesn't even usually exist in closed-source software. Out of a dozen or
so Windows programs, only Photoshop gave a message stating it would not
print the notes I've just scanned. There is something else at work in there,
too - not just the little yellow circles...

[Simon Finnigan]

This could be due to an interference pattern in the document. Print it in
such a way that any common scanning resolution will produce a moire pattern
that reads VOID.

[Simon Finnigan]

It's more likely that whatever resolution you scan the microprint in, you
won't be able to reproduce it to anything like the same quality - you'll
just get a blurry mess.

[S]

It could have been worse. I probably read it on comp.risks that
someone was photocopying something on a colour photocopier, it was not
money, but the photocopier thought it was, and it simply stopped
working until it was reset by an engineer sent out by the
manufacturer.