Dodgy kitchen fitter - what to do?
GB
as and electrician NIC EIC registered. This for me was an important point as
there was quite a bit of electrical work involved.
About 2/3rds of the way through the work, I started to have qualms and
checked his registration. It turns out that this ended a year ago - for
reasons they could not divulge. By the time I found out, he had gutted the
place and done all the initial fixings. I felt that I couldn't just turf him
off the job and leave the place without a working kitchen. Nor did I want to
shop him to NIC EIC without checking with him first. So, I sent him an email
asking for explanation. He just ignored this and carried on with the work.
To cut a long story short, it has now been completed. The standard of work
is not brilliant, but it appears ok. I can't tell whether the electrical
work is to the required standards, but let's assume it is.
He has now submitted his bill, which is 35% higher than his quotation for no
obvious reason. The original quote was around what others were charging.
Any suggestions about what I should now do, please? I'd like to pay him a
fair amount for the job, but I don't really want to pay him at the rate for
a qualified electrician if he isn't registered.
--
Take it easy on the kid, SilverFox316; everybody kills Hitler on their first
trip.
R
"GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:4b1fcdc0$0$2528$da0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
AFAIK a "Quote" is a quote. Therefore should be as accurate as possible and
becomes acceptable in contract to the price specified
Whereas an "Estimate" is just that and might vary given extenuating
circumstances.
Which *did* he supply?
http://www.estimate.info/article/5949/quotation_vs_estimate
Desk Rabbit
> I had a quote from a kitchen fitter who described himself on his quotation
> as and electrician NIC EIC registered. This for me was an important point as
> there was quite a bit of electrical work involved.
>
> About 2/3rds of the way through the work, I started to have qualms and
> checked his registration. It turns out that this ended a year ago - for
> reasons they could not divulge. By the time I found out, he had gutted the
> place and done all the initial fixings. I felt that I couldn't just turf him
> off the job and leave the place without a working kitchen. Nor did I want to
> shop him to NIC EIC without checking with him first. So, I sent him an email
> asking for explanation. He just ignored this and carried on with the work.
>
> To cut a long story short, it has now been completed. The standard of work
> is not brilliant, but it appears ok. I can't tell whether the electrical
> work is to the required standards, but let's assume it is.
One assumes that he reached a required standard before and during his
registration so I see no reason to assume that a tradesman suddenly
becomes incompetent just because a registration has lapsed.
If you are really worried I'd get a second opinion from another electrician.
> He has now submitted his bill, which is 35% higher than his quotation for no
> obvious reason. The original quote was around what others were charging.
Did you have a written quote or an estimate? IANAL but as I understand
it a quote is a fixed price for a job whereas with an estimate it is
accepted that there might be some variance in the final cost.
GB
>
> AFAIK a "Quote" is a quote. Therefore should be as accurate as possible
> and
> becomes acceptable in contract to the price specified
>
> Whereas an "Estimate" is just that and might vary given extenuating
> circumstances.
>
> Which *did* he supply?
>
> http://www.estimate.info/article/5949/quotation_vs_estimate
>
It was not headed up either as a quote or an estimate, but there was no
suggestion that this was not a firm price. It just said "Kitchen
refurbishment work .... [list of work to be carried out] .... Total �xxxx"
I am really pretty sure this is a quote. I am really more concerned about
his lack of the qualifications he claimed.
Peter Parry
wrote:
>I am really pretty sure this is a quote. I am really more concerned about
>his lack of the qualifications he claimed.
Membership of the NICEIC (or any of the other similar trade bodies) is
not a "qualification". The most usual reason for a trader leaving the
scheme is that they did not pay their yearly membership fee of about
£400.
GP Hardy
> To cut a long story short, it has now been completed. The standard of work
> is not brilliant, but it appears ok. I can't tell whether the electrical
> work is to the required standards, but let's assume it is.
Sounds like he's completed his side of the contract, then. You'll need to
pay up.
> He has now submitted his bill, which is 35% higher than his quotation for
> no
> obvious reason. The original quote was around what others were charging.
Doesn't matter if there is an obvious reason. That's how much you're obliged
to pay.
> Any suggestions about what I should now do, please? I'd like to pay him a
> fair amount for the job, but I don't really want to pay him at the rate
> for
> a qualified electrician if he isn't registered.
If you didn't specify that requirement as part of the contract, his
qualification or lack thereof is irrelevant with regards to payment. I can
think of one good reason for having a letterhead with the trade logos on
it - he's let his membership lapse and wants to use up his old stationery.
As long as it's not intentionally dishonest, he should be OK. To an extent,
it is fair to argue it's an implied part of the contract, but if he has a
reasonable explanation, and you've made an assumption, and the work is of a
satisfactory standard, there's not a lot you can do.
The 35% is out of order, though.
To be honest, I wish I was in your situation. At least it looks like your
kitchen fitter has done an acceptable job - our plumbers did a terrible job,
and they DID have the qualifications.
Ste
Then you should not have allowed him to continue with the works. As it
is, you accepted his quote/estimate, allowed him to complete the works
knowing that he was not NICEIC registered, and his bill must now be
paid. If the works are not up to a reasonable workmanlike standard,
then you must give him reasonable opportunity to rectify the issues,
or if you have *reasonably* lost confidence in his ability, then you
can have the works rectified by another electrician and deduct that
cost from the amount owing.
As to the bill being higher than expected, this depends on whether you
received a quote or an estimate. If it was a quote, then you need pay
only the quoted amount (subject to some exceptions). If it was an
estimate, then you can demand justification for why the final bill has
exceeded the estimate by 35%.
TTman
If he is not qualified to 'PART P', he is breaking the law by doing ANY
electrical work in a Kitchen.
He should have supplied you with a part p certificate and/or a periodic test
certificate.
Ask him for the part P before you pay him. If he coughs, then he's not
qualified. Next best, is a periodic test certificate.... if he still coughs,
you have a serious problem.
The problem will be when you come to sell the house ( as usual).
T/standards might be interested, as will building control. Trouble is, going
down that road will cost you dearly..
Any other electrician will not give a part P unless he has done the work.
The implication here is that another electrician will strip out what has
been done and re-do it and charge.... even though what has been done may
well be technically correct and fully in accordance with part P.
Bummer :(
YAPH
> I had a quote from a kitchen fitter who described himself on his
> quotation as and electrician NIC EIC registered. This for me was an
> important point as there was quite a bit of electrical work involved.
>
> About 2/3rds of the way through the work, I started to have qualms and
> checked his registration. It turns out that this ended a year ago - for
> reasons they could not divulge. By the time I found out, he had gutted
> the place and done all the initial fixings. I felt that I couldn't just
> turf him off the job and leave the place without a working kitchen. Nor
> did I want to shop him to NIC EIC without checking with him first. So, I
> sent him an email asking for explanation. He just ignored this and
> carried on with the work.
>
> To cut a long story short, it has now been completed. The standard of
> work is not brilliant, but it appears ok. I can't tell whether the
> electrical work is to the required standards, but let's assume it is.
Has he submitted properly completed electrical works certificates?
Has he notified the work he has done to building control via NICEIC or
whoever he's registered with these days (NICEIC aren't the only show in
town: he could now be with NAPIT or one of the others).
If he hasn't do not pay until he has done.
> He has now submitted his bill, which is 35% higher than his quotation
> for no obvious reason. The original quote was around what others were
> charging.
If I were submitting a bill 35% higher than my original estimate - let
alone a quote - I'd expect it to be queried.
> Any suggestions about what I should now do, please? I'd like to pay him
> a fair amount for the job, but I don't really want to pay him at the
> rate for a qualified electrician if he isn't registered.
You really, legally, need the completed installation certificates and
notification. You could run into trouble trying to sell your house
without them, and it could get very difficult and expensive to get them
done by someone else.
--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk
steve robinson
> the issues, or if you have reasonably lost confidence in his
> ability, then you can have the works rectified by another
> electrician and deduct that cost from the amount owing.
It is a legal requirement he gives him the opportunity to rectify the
works , it makes no difference if he lost confidents in him.
If he fails to give him an opportunity to rectify the works its
unlikely if it went to court that the op would win
>
> As to the bill being higher than expected, this depends on whether
> you received a quote or an estimate. If it was a quote, then you
> need pay only the quoted amount (subject to some exceptions). If it
> was an estimate, then you can demand justification for why the
> final bill has exceeded the estimate by 35%.
An estimate is just that its a guess
Owain
> If he is not qualified to 'PART P', he is breaking the law by doing ANY
> electrical work in a Kitchen.
Not so. Like-for-like replacement is permitted without notification
even in kitchens, bathrooms etc.
If he is not Part P then the work must be carried out under a Building
Regulations application to the local council.
> He should have supplied you with a part p certificate and/or a periodic test
> certificate.
The required certificate is a Minor Works or a Design, Installation
and Test. A periodic test certificate is not appropriate.
> T/standards might be interested, as will building control. Trouble is, going
> down that road will cost you dearly..
If the quotation was given on paper with a NICEIC logo then the buyer
would be entitled to expect that the electrician was able to fulfil
the legal requirements under Part P by virtue of his NICEIC
membership. If he isn't then the buyer is entitled to expect the
matter to be remedied at the electrician's expense, by the electrician
submitting the Minor Works certificate (which he can still issue, even
if not NICEIC) together with a retrospective Building Regulations
application form and the appropriate fee, to the local council. The
council may require some of the work to be exposed and the electrician
should absorb the cost of that and the subsequent making good.
Or, and I know we're not supposed to encourage anyone to break any law
ever, just pretend Part Pee does not exist.
Owain
Old Codger
Your council's building control people could issue as certificate, for a
fee.
--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field
What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]
![george [dicegeorge]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjVy3egmWxdo6kgdNwXDn-6EE54MDMuR9kO5wF-DhVhewlzxjNY=s40-c)
george [dicegeorge]
says:
[Where, however, notifiable electrical installation work is to be
carried out by a person not registered with a Part P competent person
scheme, a building notice or full plans must be submitted to the local
authority]
was he registered with the council as part p competent?
if not then perhaps you could deduct the cost of your time and the added
fees
for getting someone to give you a certificate before paying him the
quoted amount.
[g]
YAPH
> was he registered with the council as part p competent?
No: electrical contractors are not registered with the council. Having
obtained the necessary qualifications etc they join a competent persons
scheme run by NICEIC, NAPIT or others. This allows them to notify
notifiable work (e.g. most work in kitchens) to the LA Building Control
dept.
YAPH
> The required certificate is a Minor Works or a Design, Installation and
> Test. A periodic test certificate is not appropriate.
Unlikely to be a Minor Electrical Works if he's ripping out existing
circuit(s) and installing new. An MEW would be appropriate for an
extension to an existing circuit. You should be getting an Electrical
Installation Certificate - or several.
> If the quotation was given on paper with a NICEIC logo then the buyer
> would be entitled to expect that the electrician was able to fulfil the
> legal requirements under Part P by virtue of his NICEIC membership.
Or membership of another body running a Competent Persons scheme. I know
a couple of sparks who have given up on NICEIC and joined up with NAPIT.
(I am also a member of NAPIT's 'Defined Scope' scheme - basically for
Plumbing and Heating engineers doing electrical work as part of P&H jobs
- and having been inspected by the local NAPIT inspector I can say they
expect pretty high standards. I don't think it's any way a second class
alternative to NICEIC.)
Just zis Guy, you know?
wrote:
>He has now submitted his bill, which is 35% higher than his quotation for no
>obvious reason. The original quote was around what others were charging.
Pay him the agreed sum and let him sue you for the difference. He
won't, unless he is as stupid as he appears to be dishonest.
Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/
The usenet price promise: all opinions offered in newsgroups are guaranteed
to be worth the price paid.
Ste
wrote:
Which is why I said *reasonably* lost confidence. Clearly he does not
have to allow a total bungler back into his house. But all tradesmen
leave minor snags, and such snags are not a reason to bring in another
tradesman to rectify the work (unless the OP wants to pay extra out of
his own pocket for it) - if you want quality control and double-checks
on every wire, then you pay extra for it from a reputable company who
provide such a rigorous service.
> If he fails to give him an opportunity to rectify the works its
> unlikely if it went to court that the op would win
Here, I agree. The OP does not say anything about the standard of the
works falling below a reasonably competent standard - his main
complaint seems to be about the electrician's qualifications or trade
memberships, which are really besides the point in determining whether
the actual work is of a reasonable standard.
> > As to the bill being higher than expected, this depends on whether
> > you received a quote or an estimate. If it was a quote, then you
> > need pay only the quoted amount (subject to some exceptions). If it
> > was an estimate, then you can demand justification for why the
> > final bill has exceeded the estimate by 35%.
>
> An estimate is just that its a guess
Yes, but there has to be some truth to the estimate. If there was
unexpected work required (and let's face it, there often is), then
that's fair enough. But it is reasonable to ask him to justify why the
bill exceeded the estimate by as much as 35%, and of course the OP can
always refuse to pay the bill on the grounds that it is not a
reasonable charge (which goes to the heart of why the electrician
needs to justify the figure).
Lordgnome
"Owain" <spuorg...@gowanhill.com> wrote in message
news:b11ef3e9-2faf-4039...@v30g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Or, and I know we're not supposed to encourage anyone to break any law
ever, just pretend Part Pee does not exist.
These current electrical regs make my blood boil. They are simply another
money making scam. As someone who has served an apprenticeship and spent
most of my working life as an engineer, I am now not "supposed" to be
competent to wire my own house.
If it were simply a question of proving competency either via employment
history or just taking yet another exam, this would be fair and I would not
mind doing it to keep everyone happy, but when you look into it you find
that gold and jewels are required to pay for it all, plus the recurring
registration fees.
I know a number of perfectly good sparks who have just decided that the
whole thing was not worth the expense and taken up another business instead.
Les.
Ste
wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:21:13 +0000, "GB" <NOTsome...@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> >He has now submitted his bill, which is 35% higher than his quotation for no
> >obvious reason. The original quote was around what others were charging.
>
> Pay him the agreed sum and let him sue you for the difference. He
> won't, unless he is as stupid as he appears to be dishonest.
He is not necessarily dishonest just because the bill has increased.
I've had jobs where, by rights, I should have tacked a zero on the end
of the bill because of the customer's prior DIY or "efforts to help".
But it's up to GB to ask for a justification here. Then again, perhaps
he's tacked 35% on the end because he didn't like GB's attitude or
could see coming a dispute over the bill.
TTman
"Lordgnome" <lord...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:hfqea5$p8d$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
My sentiments entirely.....
YAPH
> Here, I agree. The OP does not say anything about the standard of the
> works falling below a reasonably competent standard - his main complaint
> seems to be about the electrician's qualifications or trade memberships,
> which are really besides the point in determining whether the actual
> work is of a reasonable standard.
I beg to differ: with any regulated work the the contractor's
qualifications and membership of an appropriate competent persons' scheme
to allow them to do the work legally and issue appropriate certification
that it has been done according to regs would seem to be as important as
the work being done (as best as can be judged to the untrained eye of the
customer) to a reasonable standard.
--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk
The floggings will continue until morale improves
YAPH
> These current electrical regs make my blood boil. They are simply
> another money making scam. As someone who has served an apprenticeship
> and spent most of my working life as an engineer, I am now not
> "supposed" to be competent to wire my own house.
What has serving an apprenticeship and working as an engineer have to do
with being competent to wire your own house? You might have done your
apprenticeship, and engineering work, in the motor trade.
I have a BSc in Electrical and Electronic Engineering and that doesn't
qualify me to wire my own house. Doing my training for the City & Guilds
exam in the 'regs' I realised why. Although some of the knowledge
embodied in my degree education is a prerequisite for my vocational
education it does not encompass it: the vocational qualification requires
different knowledge from the academic one.
--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk
An atheist is a person with no invisible means of support
Peter Parry
>Doing my training for the City & Guilds
>exam in the 'regs' I realised why. Although some of the knowledge
>embodied in my degree education is a prerequisite for my vocational
>education it does not encompass it: the vocational qualification requires
>different knowledge from the academic one.
It is worth correcting the common misconception that Part P requires
installers to be "qualified" in some way, it does not. There is no
such thing as "Part P qualified" except in the advertising literature
of some companies. Part-P has not placed any restrictions on who may
undertake electrical work in dwellings.
Part P requires that firms or sole traders, in order to be able to
self certify notifiable work, join a trade scheme such as NICEIC,
NAPIT etc. Anyone at all can do exactly the same work if they instead
follow the Building Regulations approval route.
The situation this creates is that an apprentice working for an
electrical contractor registered with a trade body to self certify
work can carry out notifiable work and have it self certified even
though they may have no qualifications at all.
Their college instructor with 30 years practical experience and every
C&G under the sun in the subject cannot self certify simply because
their employer is not a member of a trade scheme. Similarly an
electrician who has worked for years as a domestic fitter loses the
ability to self certify the day they retire or leave the employment of
a registered company.
Registered to self certify under Part P and competence are only weakly
linked.
Lordgnome
"YAPH" <use...@yaph.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7oc41cF...@mid.individual.net...
of electricity.
Such things as correct routing of wiring, and the conventions to be used are
well developed and written up through the various regulatory documents. It
only requires a bit of reading to ensure that everything will be to an
acceptable standard.
It is not necessary to re-invent the wheel. A builder would not for example
need to calculate the stress on an RSJ. It is only necessary to refer to the
appropriate tables.
House wiring is not difficult. It obviously needs to be done in the correct
manner, but paying a great deal of money for registration to do it is, I
repeat, a rip-off.
Les.
Ste
> On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 08:50:32 +0000, Ste wrote:
> > Here, I agree. The OP does not say anything about the standard of the
> > works falling below a reasonably competent standard - his main complaint
> > seems to be about the electrician's qualifications or trade memberships,
> > which are really besides the point in determining whether the actual
> > work is of a reasonable standard.
>
> I beg to differ: with any regulated work the the contractor's
> qualifications and membership of an appropriate competent persons' scheme
> to allow them to do the work legally and issue appropriate certification
> that it has been done according to regs would seem to be as important as
> the work being done (as best as can be judged to the untrained eye of the
> customer) to a reasonable standard.
I agree that qualifications and memberships are relevant to the
question of the price paid. But GB knew the price being charged, he
found out that the electrician was not registered, and yet he allowed
the work to continue to completion.
He cannot go back now and say "er, about the price...". If there are
specific extra costs that GB will now incur, for example the cost of
having the works inspected and commissioned by a registered
electrician, then he may be able to deduct that - if he does in fact
incur that cost. But he cannot deduct simply because the electrician
was not registered, when evidently he was quite happy to allow that
electrician to complete the works knowing that he was not registered.
bartc
Yet up to 2005, anyone could do electrical work on kitchens and bathrooms.
It just needed common sense and some practical skill. I'm sure most of those
pre-2005 DIY installations are adequately safe.
The Part P nonsense says that even electricians who've spent their working
lives doing exactly this sort of work, can no longer do so without a lot of
hassle and expense. But apparently they can still wire up kitchens in
industrial premises!
--
Bartc
TTman
Time served in electronics/electrical is a firm foundation, but no substitue
for experience... etc.
Last week I rewired a house alongside a newly qualified part P electrician
( last year). I was amazed, but not surprised ,at his lack of practical
knowledge. But, job done in record time, and fully certified..He did nothing
I couldn't do.... but he has the all important bit of paper. I could get
part P, but it's not cost effective ( as a part time property developer) and
I would hate to pay �400+ p.a. just to be part of an 'old boy's club......
steve robinson
As an electrical and electronics engineering graduate you should be
able to and have the knowledge to wire a house to an accepted
standard , it beggars belief if the BSc you undertook failed to
impart such basic infomation and domestic installations are basic .
Even i as a shopfitter can work out circuit loads recognise types of
circuit and understand the princibles within a small installation ,
infact in the past i have fully rewired my own house including
installing new disribution board
GB
news:eff2675b-e4ca-441c...@p35g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> I agree that qualifications and memberships are relevant to the
> question of the price paid. But GB knew the price being charged, he
> found out that the electrician was not registered, and yet he allowed
> the work to continue to completion.
>
> He cannot go back now and say "er, about the price...". If there are
> specific extra costs that GB will now incur, for example the cost of
> having the works inspected and commissioned by a registered
> electrician, then he may be able to deduct that - if he does in fact
> incur that cost. But he cannot deduct simply because the electrician
> was not registered, when evidently he was quite happy to allow that
> electrician to complete the works knowing that he was not registered.
That was really the point I was asking about. I think it's a bit OTT to say
that I was happy to let him complete the work knowing he's not registered. I
wasn't happy, but I felt under duress as I couldn't leave the place without
a kitchen whilst I found someone else - that could have taken weeks. Also, I
felt that I needed to give him a chance to explain.
There are loads of reasons why someone could lose their registration. As
Peter Parry says, probably the most usual reason is non-payment of fees.
However, I would expect someone confronted with the question to reply if it
was a simple matter like that. This guy has not replied, which makes me
wonder whether he was doing dodgy work and got canned.
I have asked for, but not received, a Part P certificate. Although he claims
to have re-run the ring main in the kitchen (and is wanting to charge an
extra �500 for this) there are no RCDs to be seen. I noticed that one power
point point was run with a single length of cable, whereas I thought two
were needed.
TTman
SNIP.
>
> As an electrical and electronics engineering graduate you should be
> able to and have the knowledge to wire a house to an accepted
> standard , it beggars belief if the BSc you undertook failed to
> impart such basic infomation and domestic installations are basic .
>
> Even i as a shopfitter can work out circuit loads recognise types of
> circuit and understand the princibles within a small installation ,
> infact in the past i have fully rewired my own house including
> installing new disribution board
I hate to say this, but holding a Bsc quite often = zero common sense when
it comes to basic DIY.
No disrespect to the poster that stated he had a Bsc. I doubt they are
taught anything about real life in UNI.
steve robinson
I would rather a fully qualified time served sparks with several
years under his belt did the job than someone straight out of college
waving a peace of paper
Old Codger
>
> I have asked for, but not received, a Part P certificate. Although he claims
> to have re-run the ring main in the kitchen (and is wanting to charge an
> extra �500 for this) there are no RCDs to be seen. I noticed that one power
> point point was run with a single length of cable, whereas I thought two
> were needed.
Not necessarily. There are such things as spurs off the ring and up to
two sockets are permitted on each spur. There is a limit on the number
of spurs.
Old Codger
It is even worse than that.
Although the wiring regulations are now a BS they are written by members
of the IET (used to be the IEE). Even the members who wrote the
regulations cannot approve an installation unless they are "approved"
under one of the schemes.
> Registered to self certify under Part P and competence are only weakly
> linked.
Indeed.
Old Codger
>
> It is not necessary to re-invent the wheel. A builder would not for
> example need to calculate the stress on an RSJ. It is only necessary
> to refer to the appropriate tables.
>
> House wiring is not difficult. It obviously needs to be done in the
> correct manner, but paying a great deal of money for registration to
> do it is, I repeat, a rip-off.
Although not that difficult it is not necessarily that simple. There is
a limit to the allowable voltage drop at the end of a circuit. Simple
maths is also needed. There can also be instances when it may not be
possible to follow standard methods. Interpretation is required.
Denis McMahon
> I have asked for, but not received, a Part P certificate. Although he claims
> to have re-run the ring main in the kitchen (and is wanting to charge an
> extra £500 for this) there are no RCDs to be seen. I noticed that one power
> point point was run with a single length of cable, whereas I thought two
> were needed.
You can spur to a single or double socket from any point on a ring
circuit, including from the distribution panel.
If he has indeed "re-run the ring main" I'd expect him to mean all the
way from the distribution board. In that case, my understanding[1] is
that the ring must now be RCD protected by law - if it's not then he's
in breach of regs, whether he's qualified or not, and whether he's
complied with the self certification process through a trade body or not.
Note that if the whole board is modern enough for multiple circuits to
be RCD protected by a common RCD, then there's no need for a separate
RCD for the kitchen provided it's connected on the protected side of the
common RCD.
Also, if he has re-run the whole ring, I believe[1] he should have done
impedance, continuity, over-current and rcd trip tests, and have issued
a test certificate.
I strongly suggest you contact one of the trade organisations (maybe the
one he claimed to be part of) and check with them what you should expect
to receive in the way of test certificates and documentation for the
work, and then go back to him and ask for it.
Write a letter to him (paper, not email). Keep a copy. Tell him that, as
he didn't discuss the increased cost before carrying out the additional
work, you're only willing to pay the original quote. Inform him that
he's welcome to explain both the necessity of the extra work and the
reasons that he didn't discuss it with you before undertaking it. If he
indicated that he's part of a trade body that has an arbitration scheme,
get their details and reference the scheme in your letter.
Then inform him that unless he provides the appropriate inspection and
safety documentation, as advised by "trade association", you're
deducting the cost of having the electrical installation tested and
certified by a suitably qualified person. Point out that his failure to
correctly self certificate means that you may have to use the local
authority building inspector route, at significant cost.
[1] I'm not a "qualified" electrician according to the current rules.
Rgds
Denis McMahon
Ste
> "Ste" <ste_ro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:eff2675b-e4ca-441c...@p35g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > I agree that qualifications and memberships are relevant to the
> > question of the price paid. But GB knew the price being charged, he
> > found out that the electrician was not registered, and yet he allowed
> > the work to continue to completion.
>
> > He cannot go back now and say "er, about the price...". If there are
> > specific extra costs that GB will now incur, for example the cost of
> > having the works inspected and commissioned by a registered
> > electrician, then he may be able to deduct that - if he does in fact
> > incur that cost. But he cannot deduct simply because the electrician
> > was not registered, when evidently he was quite happy to allow that
> > electrician to complete the works knowing that he was not registered.
>
> That was really the point I was asking about. I think it's a bit OTT to say
> that I was happy to let him complete the work knowing he's not registered.
Indeed. I used the word "happy" for rhetorical effect, when in fact
what I really mean simply is that you allowed the works to proceed
without raising any objection, either to the electrician's continued
presence, or to the final price that you knew he intended to charge.
> I
> wasn't happy, but I felt under duress as I couldn't leave the place without
> a kitchen whilst I found someone else - that could have taken weeks.
I'm sympathetic to you as a matter of practical reality. But you
cannot say that you were "under duress" to allow him to complete the
works but, unbeknownst to him, at a lower price than first agreed. If
it was your intention to dispute his rate of pay, then you should have
done it there and then. If he then refused to do any more work, then
you could have sued him for the full consequential damages.
As it stands, I think there is a strong argument that you've waived
the whole issue by allowing the works to continue to completion. The
only argument you can make is that, as you contracted for a registered
electrician, there was an implicit contractual term that installation
would be signed off, and the onus is now upon him to have the works
signed off by a registered electrician or the local council, at his
own cost - if he refuses to do so, then you can arrange it yourself
and make a deduction.
> Also, I
> felt that I needed to give him a chance to explain.
And that will cost you.
> There are loads of reasons why someone could lose their registration. As
> Peter Parry says, probably the most usual reason is non-payment of fees.
> However, I would expect someone confronted with the question to reply if it
> was a simple matter like that. This guy has not replied, which makes me
> wonder whether he was doing dodgy work and got canned.
Indeed. The easiest way to find out definitively is to contact the
NICEIC. Obviously if he has been ejected from the organisation, that
stands you in better stead than if he simply allowed his membership to
lapse. If he did simply allow his membership to lapse, then personally
I'd forget about the issue, save as to making specific deductions that
are required to have the installation signed off by the local council.
> I have asked for, but not received, a Part P certificate. Although he claims
> to have re-run the ring main in the kitchen (and is wanting to charge an
> extra £500 for this) there are no RCDs to be seen. I noticed that one power
> point point was run with a single length of cable, whereas I thought two
> were needed.
Not necessarily. And unless you specified two cables per point, then
he's obviously used his own professional judgment and you cannot
complain now.
Steve Walker
> Or, and I know we're not supposed to encourage anyone to break any law
> ever, just pretend Part Pee does not exist.
I think this is a good example of why the moderators do not apply a 'blind
obedience' approach to matters of legal compliance.
YAPH
> I agree that qualifications and memberships are relevant to the question
> of the price paid. But GB knew the price being charged, he found out
> that the electrician was not registered, and yet he allowed the work to
> continue to completion.
>
> He cannot go back now and say "er, about the price...". If there are
> specific extra costs that GB will now incur, for example the cost of
> having the works inspected and commissioned by a registered electrician,
> then he may be able to deduct that - if he does in fact incur that cost.
> But he cannot deduct simply because the electrician was not registered,
> when evidently he was quite happy to allow that electrician to complete
> the works knowing that he was not registered.
He only knew that the electrician was no longer registered with NICEIC.
If he has in the first instance engaged someone operating as a
professional electrician then it may be the electrician's business
whether he continues his registration with NICEIC or transfers to another
organisation. However I think one could make a case for saying the
customer is entitled to assume that he is still dealing with a
professional electrician unless the electrician informs him otherwise and
that he will get his Electrical works Certificates and Building
Regulations compliance notice when the work is done.
--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk
I can't stand intolerance
YAPH
> I have asked for, but not received, a Part P certificate. Although he
> claims to have re-run the ring main in the kitchen (and is wanting to
> charge an extra £500 for this) there are no RCDs to be seen. I noticed
> that one power point point was run with a single length of cable,
> whereas I thought two were needed.
If the cable to a socket or light fitting is buried in the wall, less
than 50mm (2") deep and is not done in armoured cable or run in earthed
conduit, then there *must* be an RCD protecting the circuit if it is a
new circuit or has been modified.
--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk
When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my father did,
not screaming in terror like his passengers.
YAPH
> Well, your BSc SHOULD have given you the requisite knowledge of the
> nature of electricity.
> Such things as correct routing of wiring, and the conventions to be used
> are well developed and written up through the various regulatory
> documents. It only requires a bit of reading to ensure that everything
> will be to an acceptable standard.
The knowledge of the nature of electricity and various other subjects
comprised in my degree were also well developed and written up - I only
needed a bit of reading to acquire that knowledge: I didn't *need* a
degree. My degree tells other people that I have that knowledge. Likewise
my electrical qualifications and competent person's scheme membership
tell other people - such as customers and building control officers -
that I have the appropriate knowledge in the relevant fields.
Like it or not the powers-that-be in this country have decided that
people should have some independently-accredited qualification in order
to practice in certain fields - generally those where mistakes could kill
or injure others, such as medicine, gas fitting and electrical
installation - rather than relying on practitioners' assessments of their
own skills and knowledge.
--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk
The ant has made himself illustrious through constant industry industrious
So what? Would you be calm and placid if you were full of formic acid?
YAPH
> As an electrical and electronics engineering graduate you should be able
> to and have the knowledge to wire a house to an accepted standard , it
> beggars belief if the BSc you undertook failed to impart such basic
> infomation and domestic installations are basic .
My degree course encompassed a wide range of electrical and electronic
subjects but did not give me the specific knowledge I needed to wire a
house to accepted standards: that was the subject of the vocational
training I more recently undertook.
> Even i as a shopfitter can work out circuit loads recognise types of
> circuit and understand the princibles within a small installation ,
> infact in the past i have fully rewired my own house including
> installing new disribution board
I could have worked out circuit loads and understood the principles
before doing my degree (I did it for the electronics rather than the
electrics) and I did rewire my house including CU before getting trained
up.
And I don't think I did too bad a job of it.
However if I were to do it professionally (and for the small amount of
electrical work I do do professionally) I would do it right not only
according to the principles but also by the book. That - like it or not -
is what being professional is about.
--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk
The ant has made himself illustrious through constant industry industrious
YAPH
> I hate to say this, but holding a Bsc quite often = zero common sense
> when it comes to basic DIY.
> No disrespect to the poster that stated he had a Bsc. I doubt they are
> taught anything about real life in UNI.
Real Life (tm) was extra-curricular :-)
The degree was academic, not vocational: there was very little practical
instruction, and what there was involved electrical machinery and
microelectronics in workshop/laboratory conditions, not ripping up
floorboards and chasing walls in domestic properties.
--
John Stumbles -- http://yaph.co.uk
The clairvoyants' meeting has been cancelled due to unforseen
circumstances.
steve robinson
I have the same issue with fitting windows , i am no longer deemed
fit to do so yet i have advanced city and guilds , am a member of the
ioc at there highest level , have in the past helped set and
adjudicate exams been in the industry for nearly 34 years
I can see in the future your going to have defragementation of the
trades to such an extent that you wont have properly skilled
individuals just semi skilled monkeys trained to perform one
particular operation .
Sorry guv im only the light switch fitter the socket fitters comming
tomorrow the cabler the day after and the guy that connects them up
will be here next week , and if you want the cooker point fitter its
at least a month been a bit of a rush on