Is a cycle a conveyance

[Roland Perry]

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/12

Can one be convicted of TWOC of a bike. For example riding off on an
unlocked Boris Bike or equivalent without paying?
--
Roland Perry

[Mark Goodge]

On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 11:26:14 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/12
>
>Can one be convicted of TWOC of a bike. For example riding off on an
>unlocked Boris Bike or equivalent without paying?

Yes. That's why it specifically says "motor vehicle or other
conveyance". You can TWOC pretty much anything that moves, provided
it's designed to convey people:

"conveyance" means any conveyance constructed or adapted for the
carriage of a person or persons whether by land, water or air

Theft Act 1968 section 12.7.(a)

Convictions for TWOCcing boats are not uncommon. I'm sure someone more
knowledgable than me can point to one for TWOCcing a bicycle. But
taking a Boris Bike (or similar) without payment would be more likely
to be prosecuted for Obtaining Services Dishonestly.

Mark

[Tim Woodall]

On 2018-06-06, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Convictions for TWOCcing boats are not uncommon. I'm sure someone more
> knowledgable than me can point to one for TWOCcing a bicycle. But
> taking a Boris Bike (or similar) without payment would be more likely
> to be prosecuted for Obtaining Services Dishonestly.
>

I thought TWOCcing was created to fix the problem that people joyriding
cars couldn't be shown to have intent to permanently deprive.

It would, I suspect, be a very rare case where a thief was caught while
'joyriding' a bicycle. More likely the thief will be caught when trying
to fence it or it will be abandonned somewhere (if the thief is ever
caught)

So I'd doubt there are any 'TWOCcings' of bicycles and it's always
prosecuted as theft.

[Sara Merriman]

In article <slrnphfjc5....@einstein.home.woodall.me.uk>, Tim

It used to be a thing to take a bike to get home from the pub, and just
leave it lying around afterwards. That's the closest I can get to
TWOCCing a bike.

[Roland Perry]

In message <pf8ggb$1ql6$3...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 12:28:11 on Wed, 6 Jun
2018, Jeff <je...@ukra.com> remarked:

>Theft Act 1968 section 12.5
>
>Subsection (1) above shall not apply in relation to pedal cycles;

Thus not TWOC after all (but a separate offence with no popular
shorthand name).

>but, subject to subsection (6) below, a person who, without having the
>consent of the owner or other lawful authority, takes a pedal cycle for
>his own or another’s use, or rides a pedal cycle knowing it to have
>been taken without such authority, shall on summary conviction be
>liable to a fine not exceeding [F5level 3 on the standard scale.]


--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <pf8g95$1ql6$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 12:24:22 on Wed, 6 Jun
2018, Jeff <je...@ukra.com> remarked:

>>> https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/12
>>>
>>> Can one be convicted of TWOC of a bike. For example riding off on an
>>>unlocked Boris Bike or equivalent without paying?

>>  Perhaps you should read Section 6 of the link that you posted!!
>> Jeff
>
>Sorry that should be S. 5.

Do you mean sub-section 5 or 6?
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <hvffhdp555i4lhavm...@4ax.com>, at 12:23:53 on
Wed, 6 Jun 2018, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:

>>https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/12
>>
>>Can one be convicted of TWOC of a bike. For example riding off on an
>>unlocked Boris Bike or equivalent without paying?
>
>Yes. That's why it specifically says "motor vehicle or other
>conveyance". You can TWOC pretty much anything that moves, provided
>it's designed to convey people:
>
> "conveyance" means any conveyance

terrific, a recursive definition.

>constructed or adapted for the
> carriage of a person or persons whether by land, water or air
>
>Theft Act 1968 section 12.7.(a)
>
>Convictions for TWOCcing boats are not uncommon. I'm sure someone more
>knowledgable than me can point to one for TWOCcing a bicycle. But
>taking a Boris Bike (or similar) without payment would be more likely
>to be prosecuted for Obtaining Services Dishonestly.

--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <hvffhdp555i4lhavm...@4ax.com>, at 12:23:53 on
Wed, 6 Jun 2018, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:

>I'm sure someone more knowledgable than me can point to one for
>TWOCcing a bicycle.

Apparently not, it's a separate offence under 12(5).

>But taking a Boris Bike (or similar) without payment would be more
>likely to be prosecuted for Obtaining Services Dishonestly.

If unlocked, which was one of the matters I specified, then it's
unlikely that there is a means to pay.

Those are only available at docking (locking) stations and for dock-less
bikes on a lock attached to the bike. If such a lock is open then
someone is paying already, and if it's missing there's no means to pay
because you need to have a conversation[1] with the lock to pay.

[1] Smartphone+Bluetooth etc.
--
Roland Perry

[Mark Goodge]

On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 14:17:33 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <hvffhdp555i4lhavm...@4ax.com>, at 12:23:53 on
>Wed, 6 Jun 2018, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>remarked:
>
>>I'm sure someone more knowledgable than me can point to one for
>>TWOCcing a bicycle.
>
>Apparently not, it's a separate offence under 12(5).

But section 12 as a whole has the title "Taking motor vehicle or other
conveyance without authority". And section 5 uses wording that is
practically identical to section 1: "without having the consent of the
owner or other lawful authority".

So it is TWOC, it's just a different TWOC to the TWOC which applies to
planes, trains and automobiles.

Mark

[Roland Perry]

In message <skofhdppghuj2fihu...@4ax.com>, at 14:36:56 on

Wed, 6 Jun 2018, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>>>I'm sure someone more knowledgable than me can point to one for
>>>TWOCcing a bicycle.
>>
>>Apparently not, it's a separate offence under 12(5).
>
>But section 12 as a whole has the title "Taking motor vehicle or other
>conveyance without authority". And section 5 uses wording that is
>practically identical to section 1: "without having the consent of the
>owner or other lawful authority".
>
>So it is TWOC, it's just a different TWOC to the TWOC which applies to
>planes, trains and automobiles.

Fair enough. The distinction seems to be the lower fine.
--
Roland Perry

[Norman Wells]

On 06/06/2018 14:02, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <hvffhdp555i4lhavm...@4ax.com>, at 12:23:53 on
> Wed, 6 Jun 2018, Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
>>> https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/12
>>>
>>> Can one be convicted of TWOC of a bike. For example riding off on an
>>> unlocked Boris Bike or equivalent without paying?
>>
>> Yes. That's why it specifically says "motor vehicle or other
>> conveyance". You can TWOC pretty much anything that moves, provided
>> it's designed to convey people:
>>
>>  "conveyance" means any conveyance
>
> terrific, a recursive definition.

No it isn't because it goes on to exclude a certain type of conveyance
that might otherwise be thought to be included.

'Conveyance' has its ordinary dictionary meaning subject to that exclusion.

If you can understand this:

"Computer" means any computer having onboard RAM except that it does not
include a computer having less than 1Gb onboard RAM"

then you should be able to understand the 'conveyance' definition.

[Roland Perry]

In message <fnq80j...@mid.individual.net>, at 15:05:07 on Wed, 6 Jun
2018, Norman Wells <h...@unseen.ac.am> remarked:

>>>> https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/12
>>>>
>>>> Can one be convicted of TWOC of a bike. For example riding off on an
>>>> unlocked Boris Bike or equivalent without paying?
>>>
>>> Yes. That's why it specifically says "motor vehicle or other
>>> conveyance". You can TWOC pretty much anything that moves, provided
>>> it's designed to convey people:
>>>
>>>  "conveyance" means any conveyance
>> terrific, a recursive definition.
>
>No it isn't because it goes on to exclude a certain type of conveyance
>that might otherwise be thought to be included.
>
>'Conveyance' has its ordinary dictionary meaning subject to that exclusion.
>
>If you can understand this:
>
>"Computer" means any computer having onboard RAM except that it does
>not include a computer having less than 1Gb onboard RAM"
>
>then you should be able to understand the 'conveyance' definition.

It's all far too reminiscent of the IPA definition:

"data" includes data which is not electronic data

--
Roland Perry

[Norman Wells]

What's your problem with that?

[Roland Perry]

In message <fnr2l5...@mid.individual.net>, at 22:39:50 on Wed, 6 Jun

Because of the circular reference to 'data'.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <pf93ec$10ej$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:51:26 on Wed, 6 Jun
2018, Jeff <je...@ukra.com> remarked:

>>>subject to subsection (6) below, a person who, without having the
>>>consent of the owner or other lawful authority, takes a pedal cycle
>>>for his own or another’s use, or rides a pedal cycle knowing it to
>>>have been taken without such authority, shall on summary conviction
>>>be liable to a fine not exceeding [F5level 3 on the standard scale.]

Therefore if you move (without riding) such a pedal cycle from one place
to another, with no intention of yourself ever using it, there's no
offence. And specifically if you move it to somewhere that no "another"
is ever likely to find it, even less of an offence.
--
Roland Perry