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five clear days - does it include weekends?
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Tired
Jul 12, 2013, 6:10:02 PM7/12/13
to
Just wondering.
A planning application at a local council, is to be determined on Friday
next week (17th). The agenda was only made available this afternoon (friday)
at 4:15 (notified by email). The Council is closed to the public from 4pm on
a friday. The regulations for access to information state at least five
clear days for agendas to be released for inspection by the public.
My understanding of 'five clear days', are days that dont include the day of
the meeting and the day the agenda was released.
Does that mean the clock will start on monday for the five clear days, would
holding the meeting jeopardise the decisions of that committee?
A planning application at a local council, is to be determined on Friday
next week (17th). The agenda was only made available this afternoon (friday)
at 4:15 (notified by email). The Council is closed to the public from 4pm on
a friday. The regulations for access to information state at least five
clear days for agendas to be released for inspection by the public.
My understanding of 'five clear days', are days that dont include the day of
the meeting and the day the agenda was released.
Does that mean the clock will start on monday for the five clear days, would
holding the meeting jeopardise the decisions of that committee?
Mark Goodge
Jul 13, 2013, 5:30:05 AM7/13/13
to
On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 23:10:02 +0100, Tired put finger to keyboard and typed:
>Just wondering.
>
>A planning application at a local council, is to be determined on Friday
>next week (17th). The agenda was only made available this afternoon (friday)
>at 4:15 (notified by email). The Council is closed to the public from 4pm on
>a friday. The regulations for access to information state at least five
>clear days for agendas to be released for inspection by the public.
To be slightly more precise, the minimum public availability time is five
clear days or the time from when the agenda is made available to members of
the committee, whichever is the shorter. So if the committee members
themselves didn't get the agenda until 4:15pm on Friday, then there's no
requirement to provide it to the public any earlier.
>My understanding of 'five clear days', are days that dont include the day of
>the meeting and the day the agenda was released.
>
>Does that mean the clock will start on monday for the five clear days, would
>holding the meeting jeopardise the decisions of that committee?
No, it wouldn't. Again, there's a regulation that an item may not be
considered at a meeting unless the agenda has been available for inspection
for five clear days, but that is subject to the decision of the chairman
who may overrule that requirement for matters of urgency.
Even if these requirements weren't met, a simple technical breach such as
this wouldn't invalidate the decisions of the committee. It could, though,
be a relevant factor in any appeal against a decsion if it could be shown
that the lack of notification was a material factor in the committee not
being made aware of information germane to their decisions.
Mark
--
Please take a short survey on salary perceptions: http://meyu.eu/am
My blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
>Just wondering.
>
>A planning application at a local council, is to be determined on Friday
>next week (17th). The agenda was only made available this afternoon (friday)
>at 4:15 (notified by email). The Council is closed to the public from 4pm on
>a friday. The regulations for access to information state at least five
>clear days for agendas to be released for inspection by the public.
clear days or the time from when the agenda is made available to members of
the committee, whichever is the shorter. So if the committee members
themselves didn't get the agenda until 4:15pm on Friday, then there's no
requirement to provide it to the public any earlier.
>My understanding of 'five clear days', are days that dont include the day of
>the meeting and the day the agenda was released.
>
>Does that mean the clock will start on monday for the five clear days, would
>holding the meeting jeopardise the decisions of that committee?
considered at a meeting unless the agenda has been available for inspection
for five clear days, but that is subject to the decision of the chairman
who may overrule that requirement for matters of urgency.
Even if these requirements weren't met, a simple technical breach such as
this wouldn't invalidate the decisions of the committee. It could, though,
be a relevant factor in any appeal against a decsion if it could be shown
that the lack of notification was a material factor in the committee not
being made aware of information germane to their decisions.
Mark
--
Please take a short survey on salary perceptions: http://meyu.eu/am
My blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk
Roland Perry
Jul 13, 2013, 7:25:02 AM7/13/13
to
In message <pe62u89676r2511ih...@news.markshouse.net>, at
10:30:05 on Sat, 13 Jul 2013, Mark Goodge
<use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
weekends etc.
--
Roland Perry
10:30:05 on Sat, 13 Jul 2013, Mark Goodge
<use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:
>there's a regulation that an item may not be considered at a meeting
>unless the agenda has been available for inspection for five clear days
Getting back to the original question - is that working days, or also
>unless the agenda has been available for inspection for five clear days
weekends etc.
--
Roland Perry
Pedt
Jul 13, 2013, 8:05:02 AM7/13/13
to
In message <f4S+sBIG...@perry.co.uk>, at 12:25:02 on Sat, 13 Jul
2013, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
Clear days usually, IME, has a meaning that there must be at least x
days and if they'd wanted it to be working days it would say working
days.
--
Pedt
2013, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
days and if they'd wanted it to be working days it would say working
days.
--
Pedt
Roland Perry
Jul 13, 2013, 8:25:02 AM7/13/13
to
In message <gLTf5SZt...@fishcake.eternal-september.org>, at
13:05:02 on Sat, 13 Jul 2013, Pedt <pe...@user-unknown.mx2.org.uk>
remarked:
I must say, that "clear days" isn't an expression I've come across much,
and every other time a number of "days in advance" has been expressed as
a multiple of five, it's always been working days.
But because a lot of my work is International, it's often understood
that this does *not* include public holidays (which differ a lot from
one country to another).
It's also interesting to note that not everyone's working starts on a
Monday, but that doesn't matter (just as coping with countries with 6
working days a week) because neither of those variants result in a
lesser amount of notice if the notice is calculated in Western Mon-Fri
days.
--
Roland Perry
13:05:02 on Sat, 13 Jul 2013, Pedt <pe...@user-unknown.mx2.org.uk>
remarked:
>>Getting back to the original question - is that working days, or also
>>weekends etc.
>
>Clear days usually, IME, has a meaning that there must be at least x
>days and if they'd wanted it to be working days it would say working
>days.
OK, so you say "clear days" happen 7-days a week.
>>weekends etc.
>
>Clear days usually, IME, has a meaning that there must be at least x
>days and if they'd wanted it to be working days it would say working
>days.
I must say, that "clear days" isn't an expression I've come across much,
and every other time a number of "days in advance" has been expressed as
a multiple of five, it's always been working days.
But because a lot of my work is International, it's often understood
that this does *not* include public holidays (which differ a lot from
one country to another).
It's also interesting to note that not everyone's working starts on a
Monday, but that doesn't matter (just as coping with countries with 6
working days a week) because neither of those variants result in a
lesser amount of notice if the notice is calculated in Western Mon-Fri
days.
--
Roland Perry
Iain
Jul 13, 2013, 10:45:03 AM7/13/13
to
In my experience, there is some ambiguity in a day
count. It seems that the term 'clear days' removes most of this in that a
clear day must be a full 24-hour period from midnight to the following midnight,
and that would therefore exclude the start day and the final day. For
instance, one week from today should be 5 clear days.
If you said 7 days (or one week) from now, one
would normally assume that is next Saturday (today being Saturday). But
what you are in fact doing is including either today (the first day - less
likely) or next Saturday (the last day - more likely), but not both, otherwise
that would be 8 days. The Spanish get over this by often including the
first AND last days - their week being 8 days (ocho días) and their
fortnight being 15 days (quince días).
Add in the expression 'working' days, and further
complications arise. Working days normally exclude weekends and bank
holidays. Not every public holiday has been designated as a bank holiday
under the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971, Schedule 1, eg. early May
holiday; but this is covered by Royal Proclamation.
See Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971, Schedule 1:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/80/schedule/1
See also in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_holiday
See Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971, Schedule 1:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/80/schedule/1
See also in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_holiday
There are some Acts which use different terms; for
instance the Data Protection Act uses '40 days', but the Freedom of Information
Act uses '20 working days', for responses.
I am probably just more aware of this because I
have been writing some software that includes a day calculator.
--
Iain
Iain
Pedt
Jul 13, 2013, 11:15:02 AM7/13/13
to
In message <ruSTpxMH...@perry.co.uk>, at 13:25:02 on Sat, 13 Jul
2013, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
<aside>
Just 'days in advance' seems to be a bit meaningless if it is not agreed
already as to what it refers to.
--
Pedt
2013, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
>In message <gLTf5SZt...@fishcake.eternal-september.org>, at
>13:05:02 on Sat, 13 Jul 2013, Pedt <pe...@user-unknown.mx2.org.uk>
>remarked:
>>>Getting back to the original question - is that working days, or also
>>>weekends etc.
>>
>>Clear days usually, IME, has a meaning that there must be at least x
>>days and if they'd wanted it to be working days it would say working
>>days.
>
>OK, so you say "clear days" happen 7-days a week.
That is my understanding.
>13:05:02 on Sat, 13 Jul 2013, Pedt <pe...@user-unknown.mx2.org.uk>
>remarked:
>>>Getting back to the original question - is that working days, or also
>>>weekends etc.
>>
>>Clear days usually, IME, has a meaning that there must be at least x
>>days and if they'd wanted it to be working days it would say working
>>days.
>
>OK, so you say "clear days" happen 7-days a week.
>
>I must say, that "clear days" isn't an expression I've come across
>much, and every other time a number of "days in advance" has been
>expressed as a multiple of five, it's always been working days.
We may move in different circles :)
>I must say, that "clear days" isn't an expression I've come across
>much, and every other time a number of "days in advance" has been
>expressed as a multiple of five, it's always been working days.
<aside>
Just 'days in advance' seems to be a bit meaningless if it is not agreed
already as to what it refers to.
--
Pedt
Mark Goodge
Jul 13, 2013, 12:35:03 PM7/13/13
to
On Sat, 13 Jul 2013 13:05:02 +0100, Pedt put finger to keyboard and typed:
In the context of the original question, the rule is that the agenda must
be available to inspect for five clear days. A day when the offices are
closed cannot, therefore, count towards that number, as the agenda is not
available to inspect on those days. So, in practical terms, in this
particular situation it won't normally include weekends (although, for some
councils, it may, or at least include Saturdays if the office is ppen to
the public on those days). In other contexts, though (most notably the
length of time for advance notification of a meeting), it does include
non-working days.
The terminology of the legislation is somewhat ambiguous, it has to be
said.
be available to inspect for five clear days. A day when the offices are
closed cannot, therefore, count towards that number, as the agenda is not
available to inspect on those days. So, in practical terms, in this
particular situation it won't normally include weekends (although, for some
councils, it may, or at least include Saturdays if the office is ppen to
the public on those days). In other contexts, though (most notably the
length of time for advance notification of a meeting), it does include
non-working days.
The terminology of the legislation is somewhat ambiguous, it has to be
said.
davi...@gmail.com
Jul 13, 2013, 1:05:02 PM7/13/13
to
On Saturday, July 13, 2013 5:35:03 PM UTC+1, Mark Goodge wrote:
> In the context of the original question, the rule is that the agenda must
> be available to inspect for five clear days. A day when the offices are
> closed cannot, therefore, count towards that number, as the agenda is not
> available to inspect on those days. So, in practical terms, in this
If we're discussing the Local Authorities (Executive Arrangements) (Access to Information and Meetings) (England) Regulations 2012, it refers to the agenda being displayed at the council offices (which in my experience often involves a window or noticeboard visible at all hours), and placed on the council's website. So I'm not sure that the working-ness of the days is all that relevant. There isn't further definition of the words in the regulations.
> In the context of the original question, the rule is that the agenda must
> be available to inspect for five clear days. A day when the offices are
> closed cannot, therefore, count towards that number, as the agenda is not
> available to inspect on those days. So, in practical terms, in this
Mark Goodge
Jul 13, 2013, 1:40:02 PM7/13/13
to
On Sat, 13 Jul 2013 18:05:02 +0100, davi...@gmail.com put finger to
keyboard and typed:
If the agenda can be viewed in person (not online) even when the office is
closed, then yes, it's entirely irrelevant whether the office is open or
not. In which case, weekends and bank holidays would be included. But not
all councils have a publicly viewable noticeboard that can be viewed when
the office is closed.
keyboard and typed:
closed, then yes, it's entirely irrelevant whether the office is open or
not. In which case, weekends and bank holidays would be included. But not
all councils have a publicly viewable noticeboard that can be viewed when
the office is closed.
Roland Perry
Jul 13, 2013, 3:00:02 PM7/13/13
to
In message <b4d75n...@mid.individual.net>, at 15:45:03 on Sat, 13
Jul 2013, Iain <sp...@smaps.net> remarked:
>. For instance, one week from today should be 5 clear days.
So that's only Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday?
If we were allowed to include weekends you could have Sunday too, making
six.
--
Roland Perry
Jul 2013, Iain <sp...@smaps.net> remarked:
>. For instance, one week from today should be 5 clear days.
If we were allowed to include weekends you could have Sunday too, making
six.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
Jul 13, 2013, 3:05:02 PM7/13/13
to
In message <70b1aa99-c4d5-4e42...@googlegroups.com>, at
18:05:02 on Sat, 13 Jul 2013, davi...@gmail.com remarked:
FWIW, I've never noticed such a 24x7x52 noticeboard outside my local
council office. Wouldn't it get a bit full?
--
Roland Perry
18:05:02 on Sat, 13 Jul 2013, davi...@gmail.com remarked:
>If we're discussing the Local Authorities (Executive Arrangements) (Access to Information and Meetings) (England) Regulations 2012, it refers
>to the agenda being displayed at the council offices (which in my experience often involves a window or noticeboard visible at all hours), and
>placed on the council's website. So I'm not sure that the working-ness of the days is all that relevant. There isn't further definition of the
>words in the regulations.
So that's a vote for Weekends (and Public Holidays) being counted too?
>to the agenda being displayed at the council offices (which in my experience often involves a window or noticeboard visible at all hours), and
>placed on the council's website. So I'm not sure that the working-ness of the days is all that relevant. There isn't further definition of the
>words in the regulations.
FWIW, I've never noticed such a 24x7x52 noticeboard outside my local
council office. Wouldn't it get a bit full?
--
Roland Perry
Frank Erskine
Jul 13, 2013, 1:20:02 PM7/13/13
to
you to allow "48 working hours" for a repeat prescription.
They meant two working days rather than over a working week :-)
--
Frank Erskine
Tired
Jul 13, 2013, 4:30:05 PM7/13/13
to
Roland Perry wrote:
:: In message <70b1aa99-c4d5-4e42...@googlegroups.com>,
Lol, it all sounds a bit sophisticated for my little district council.
:: In message <70b1aa99-c4d5-4e42...@googlegroups.com>,
Iain
Jul 13, 2013, 10:30:03 PM7/13/13
to
A weekday to the same weekday the following week would be four clear working
days.
--
Iain
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