Re: Requiring someone to be on electoral role discriminatory

[Theo]

Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
> apparently ?
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68304818
>
> quote
> The EHRC said Pontins also brought in rules requiring guests to appear on
> the electoral register, which the commission said was discriminatory
> against Gypsies and Travellers, as they were less likely to be on the
> register.
> endquote
>
> Sure that's all credit checks kyboshed then ?

Some people aren't on the electoral register as they aren't eligible to
vote. They can ask credit reference agencies to add a note to their credit
file to that effect.

Theo

[Jon Ribbens]

On 2024-02-15, Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
> apparently ?
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68304818
>
> quote
> The EHRC said Pontins also brought in rules requiring guests to appear on
> the electoral register, which the commission said was discriminatory
> against Gypsies and Travellers, as they were less likely to be on the
> register.
> endquote
>
> Sure that's all credit checks kyboshed then ?

Well, no. If you're lending money to someone then you have a legitimate
interest in knowing that you will be able to find them later on if
necessary, so it is reasonable to inspect the electoral register.
If someone is paying up front for a holiday then it is not.

[Jon Ribbens]

On 2024-02-16, Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> wrote:

> But that doesn't seem to be taken into account in the "ruling" I posted.
> Which seems to be some people in certain ethnic groupings are a priori
> less likely to be on the electoral role (because of those ethnic
> groupings) and therefore a form of indirect discrimination is at play.

In what way is it not taken into account?

You are *allowed* to discriminate against people, providing it is
a "proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim". "Ensuring
I will be able to get my money back that I am loaning to someone"
is a legitimate aim. "Keeping gypsies out of my holiday camp because
I don't like them" is not.

[Adam Funk]

On 2024-02-15, Jethro_uk wrote:

> apparently ?
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68304818
>
> quote
> The EHRC said Pontins also brought in rules requiring guests to appear on
> the electoral register, which the commission said was discriminatory
> against Gypsies and Travellers, as they were less likely to be on the
> register.
> endquote

So they don't allow foreign tourists?

> Sure that's all credit checks kyboshed then ?

(Jon's addressed that one.)

[Roger Hayter]

On 16 Feb 2024 at 11:50:14 GMT, "Jethro_uk" <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 11:45:19 +0000, Jon Ribbens wrote:
>

> But that doesn't seem to be taken into account in the "ruling" I posted.
> Which seems to be some people in certain ethnic groupings are a priori
> less likely to be on the electoral role (because of those ethnic
> groupings) and therefore a form of indirect discrimination is at play.

But the ruling was in a specific case where the holidays were not provided on
credit. I don't think it was a general ruling about credit agencies, who after
all are in the business of fine gradations of discrimation, many of which
would probably amount to indirect discrimination against minorities *if* they
were not necessary for the purpose of their business.


--
Roger Hayter

[Roger Hayter]

On 16 Feb 2024 at 12:55:12 GMT, "Adam Funk" <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:

> On 2024-02-15, Jethro_uk wrote:
>
>> apparently ?
>>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68304818
>>
>> quote
>> The EHRC said Pontins also brought in rules requiring guests to appear on
>> the electoral register, which the commission said was discriminatory
>> against Gypsies and Travellers, as they were less likely to be on the
>> register.
>> endquote
>
> So they don't allow foreign tourists?

I imagine that they and their traditional clientele would prefer it so. Do you
think not allowing foreigners would be unlawful?


snip

--

Roger Hayter

[Pancho]

On 15/02/2024 16:44, Jethro_uk wrote:
> apparently ?
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68304818
>
> quote
> The EHRC said Pontins also brought in rules requiring guests to appear on
> the electoral register, which the commission said was discriminatory
> against Gypsies and Travellers, as they were less likely to be on the
> register.
> endquote
>

> Sure that's all credit checks kyboshed then ?
>

I think the credit reference agencies are clever enough to evade
government dictats that they should not make statistical inferences
based upon group characteristics and sound empirical data for the group.

i.e. the information available to the reference agencies is growing
faster than politicans can play whack-a-mole.

[David McNeish]

On Friday 16 February 2024 at 13:20:14 UTC, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2024-02-15, Jethro_uk wrote:
>
> > apparently ?
> >
> > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68304818
> >
> > quote
> > The EHRC said Pontins also brought in rules requiring guests to appear on
> > the electoral register, which the commission said was discriminatory
> > against Gypsies and Travellers, as they were less likely to be on the
> > register.
> > endquote
> So they don't allow foreign tourists?

Do any foreign tourists *want* to stay at a Pontins?

[Sam Plusnet]

Suppose some 'campers' caused damage to the camp?

The site operators might subsequently wish to pursue them to recoup
those damages.
Wouldn't a prior check that campers are traceable be a 'legitimate aim'
in this context?


--
Sam Plusnet

[David McNeish]

Perhaps, yes. But it was found not to be Pontins' aim.

[Adam Funk]

I don't know, but I'm surprised a tourism business would do it.

[Adam Funk]

On 2024-02-16, Jethro_uk wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 11:45:19 +0000, Jon Ribbens wrote:
>

> But that doesn't seem to be taken into account in the "ruling" I posted.
> Which seems to be some people in certain ethnic groupings are a priori
> less likely to be on the electoral role (because of those ethnic
> groupings) and therefore a form of indirect discrimination is at play.

The electoral role requirement was just one part of the discrimination
system described in the article (along with rejecting Irish surnames
and accents).

[JNugent]

On 16/02/2024 05:50, Jethro_uk wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 11:45:19 +0000, Jon Ribbens wrote:
>

> But that doesn't seem to be taken into account in the "ruling" I posted.
> Which seems to be some people in certain ethnic groupings are a priori
> less likely to be on the electoral role (because of those ethnic
> groupings) and therefore a form of indirect discrimination is at play.

Surely the reason(s) *why* certain groups are less likely to be on the
electoral register need/s to be weighed in the balance?

How would you go about tracing a band of travellers who have moved on
from your area (assuming you wanted to)?

[Adam Funk]

Ha! I've never been there but I just saw this on Wikipedia:

In 2022, it was rated the worst British holiday park chain out of a
field of 19 in a survey by consumer association Which?[2]

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontins>

[Roger Hayter]

On 16 Feb 2024 at 14:08:40 GMT, "Jethro_uk" <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> wrote:

> One suspects that had Pontins been a bit smarter and claimed that's what
> they were doing in the first place ...

That might have been a bit unconvincing if they were not, in fact, extending
credit to anyone. AIUI, package holiday companies tend to want all the money
in advance: it is the customers who are lending *them* money. Well seen during
lockdown when several holiday companies failed to refund money for months or
years.


--
Roger Hayter

[Mark Goodge]

On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 14:03:14 +0000, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:

>On 2024-02-16, Jethro_uk wrote:
>>
>> less likely to be on the electoral role (because of those ethnic
>

>The electoral role requirement was just one part of the discrimination

*roll

Mark

[Jon Ribbens]

I don't think so, given that I would think the park is staffed at all
times so presumably damage would be noticed while the culprits were
still present. Plus it's all about the "proportionate"! The camp could
take a deposit from all holidaymakers if that was a concern - or even
just from some, I suppose, if they could justify it. Flat out refusing
people on the basis of their surname or not being on the electoral
register is just blatantly unjustified.

[Davey]

A different viewpoint, from personal experience. For about twenty
five years, I lived in the USA with a Green Card, which let me do pretty
much everything that a citizen could. But with one major exception, I
was not allowed to register to vote, not even in municipal elections. I
would have had to become a citizen to do that. "Pay your taxes, but you
can't vote".

So I was never on an electoral register, although I had multiple credit
cards and could do what I wanted in any other aspects of life.
--
Davey.

[Adam Funk]

Yes, oops!

[notya...@gmail.com]

Some people choose not to be on the published register: - the rich, so they don't get bothered by sales trolls and the feckless so that their creditors can't find them. The rich are most unlikely to holiday in a camp and the latter likely to default on paying bills etc.

The more likely reason for this is so they do not let to people not entitled to be in the UK, which is AIUI now an offence with a ££££ penalty. Obviously if you can't rent through agents [who are supposed to check] moving to Pontins looks like a plausible option. Slightly better than Butlitz I'm told.

[Jon Ribbens]

On 2024-02-18, notya...@gmail.com <notya...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Some people choose not to be on the published register: - the rich, so
> they don't get bothered by sales trolls and the feckless so that their
> creditors can't find them. The rich are most unlikely to holiday in a
> camp and the latter likely to default on paying bills etc.

There are plenty of other reasons to tick the box to remove yourself
from the edited register. But regardless, credit reference agencies
have access to the full register so I doubt that ticking the box
makes any difference to creditors, or Pontins.

[David McNeish]

On Sunday 18 February 2024 at 13:35:03 UTC, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday 16 February 2024 at 10:17:39 UTC, Theo wrote:
> > Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
> > > apparently ?
> > >
> > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68304818
> > >
> > > quote
> > > The EHRC said Pontins also brought in rules requiring guests to appear on
> > > the electoral register, which the commission said was discriminatory
> > > against Gypsies and Travellers, as they were less likely to be on the
> > > register.
> > > endquote
> > >
> > > Sure that's all credit checks kyboshed then ?
> >
> > Some people aren't on the electoral register as they aren't eligible to
> > vote. They can ask credit reference agencies to add a note to their credit
> > file to that effect.
> >
> > Theo

> The more likely reason for this is so they do not let to people not entitled to be in the UK, which is AIUI now an offence with a ££££ penalty.

I'm reasonably certain that providers of holiday accommodation aren't obliged to make any such checks.

[Pamela]

Is it compulsory to register to vote?

I am unimpressed with politicians and don't vote. I ignore the voter
registration forms which arrive from time to time. Is this breaking the
law?

[Roger Hayter]

On 20 Feb 2024 at 16:54:02 GMT, "Pamela" <uk...@permabulator.33mail.com> wrote:

> On 10:00 16 Feb 2024, Theo said:
>
>> Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
>>> apparently ?
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68304818
>>>
>>> quote
>>> The EHRC said Pontins also brought in rules requiring guests to
>>> appear on the electoral register, which the commission said was
>>> discriminatory against Gypsies and Travellers, as they were less
>>> likely to be on the register.
>>> endquote
>>>
>>> Sure that's all credit checks kyboshed then ?
>>
>> Some people aren't on the electoral register as they aren't eligible
>> to vote. They can ask credit reference agencies to add a note to
>> their credit file to that effect.
>>
>> Theo
>
> Is it compulsory to register to vote?

Yes

>
> I am unimpressed with politicians and don't vote. I ignore the voter
> registration forms which arrive from time to time. Is this breaking the
> law?

Yes, unless you know someone else in your household is doing it.


--
Roger Hayter

[Simon Parker]

On 20/02/2024 16:54, Pamela wrote:
> On 10:00 16 Feb 2024, Theo said:
>
>> Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
>>> apparently ?
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68304818
>>>
>>> quote
>>> The EHRC said Pontins also brought in rules requiring guests to
>>> appear on the electoral register, which the commission said was
>>> discriminatory against Gypsies and Travellers, as they were less
>>> likely to be on the register.
>>> endquote
>>>
>>> Sure that's all credit checks kyboshed then ?
>>
>> Some people aren't on the electoral register as they aren't eligible
>> to vote. They can ask credit reference agencies to add a note to
>> their credit file to that effect.
>>
>> Theo
>
> Is it compulsory to register to vote?

See Section 9E of the Representation of the People Act 1983 (as amended)
[1] subsections (4) and (7) and Schedule ZA1 [2].

> I am unimpressed with politicians and don't vote. I ignore the voter
> registration forms which arrive from time to time. Is this breaking the
> law?

The form you receive is an "invitation" to register to vote (per
subsection (1) of Section 9E of the above Act).

You are in breach of the legislation if the registration officer
subsequently requires you to make an application for registration by a
certain date and you fail to comply which leaves you liable for a civil
penalty.

Regards

S.P.

[1] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/2/section/9E
[2] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1983/2/schedule/ZA1