Court judement

[Pamela]

Would the judgement of a recent crown court case be listed here?

<https://www.bailii.org/recent-decisions.html>

I want to read the case of Sam Melia, who was found guilty on 24th January
of distributing hate stickers. The CPS describe this case here.

<https://www.cps.gov.uk/cps/news/far-right-organiser-found-guilty-intent-
stir-racial-hatred-through-distribution-stickers>

Where can I find it?

[Jon Ribbens]

There is more information here:

https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/news/leeds-news/sam-melia-guilty-publishing-stickers-28505094

If by "read the case" you mean a transcript of the trial, there probably
isn't one. He'll be sentenced on March 1st and it's possible that the
sentencing remarks might be published, perhaps.

[Roger Hayter]

More information on the content of the stickers and how they were used and
advertised, and the effect claimed for them, here:

https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/news/leeds-news/jury-retires-consider-whether-stickers-28502530



--
Roger Hayter

[Fredxx]

Interesting article. The act just covers racial hatred, and not some
more common forms of hatred. Is Muslim/Islam a race?

I wonder if advocating light controlled pedestrian crossing should be
automatic on Saturdays should be construed as inciting racial hatred too?

[Mark Goodge]

On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 00:23:28 +0000, Fredxx <fre...@spam.invalid> wrote:

>On 30/01/2024 22:17, Roger Hayter wrote:

>> More information on the content of the stickers and how they were used and
>> advertised, and the effect claimed for them, here:
>>
>> https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/news/leeds-news/jury-retires-consider-whether-stickers-28502530
>
>Interesting article. The act just covers racial hatred, and not some
>more common forms of hatred. Is Muslim/Islam a race?

As far as the Equality Act is concerned, yes. Or, to be more precise, a
distinct religious group is covered by the same provisions as race. So it
tends to be lumped into the same category as far as reporting is concerned.
You can call that lazy reporting if you like, but it doesn't change the
underlying legal reality.

>I wonder if advocating light controlled pedestrian crossing should be
>automatic on Saturdays should be construed as inciting racial hatred too?

Only if it's intended to stir up antisemitism.

Mark

[Pamela]

On 21:47 30 Jan 2024, Jon Ribbens said:
> On 2024-01-30, Pamela <uk...@permabulator.33mail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Would the judgement of a recent crown court case be listed here?
>>
>> <https://www.bailii.org/recent-decisions.html>
>>
>> I want to read the case of Sam Melia, who was found guilty on 24th
>> January of distributing hate stickers. The CPS describe this case
>> here.
>>
>> <https://www.cps.gov.uk/cps/news/far-right-organiser-found-

>> guilty-intentstir-racial-hatred-through-distribution-stickers>

>>
>> Where can I find it?
>
>
> There is more information here:
>
> https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/news/leeds-news/sam-melia-guilty-
> publishing-stickers-28505094
>
> If by "read the case" you mean a transcript of the trial, there
> probably isn't one.

I'm not looking for a verbatim transcript of what was said in court.
That is too much to expect.

I'm interested to know how the judge applied the law in the Sam Melia
case.

I mean something similar to the following judgement (which happens to be
about continuing NHS medical treatment).

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCOP/2023/40.html

> He'll be sentenced on March 1st and it's possible that the sentencing
> remarks might be published, perhaps.

I presume a judgement, if there is one, would have been published before
then?

[David McNeish]

The vast majority of cases are not "published" in any real sense. The cases
on Bailii and the like are reported on because they are legally of interest,
almost all are appeals, not from courts of first instance. So generally for
any sort of report you rely on the press.

[Jon Ribbens]

On 2024-02-01, Pamela <uk...@permabulator.33mail.com> wrote:
> On 21:47 30 Jan 2024, Jon Ribbens said:
>> On 2024-01-30, Pamela <uk...@permabulator.33mail.com> wrote:
>>> Would the judgement of a recent crown court case be listed here?
>>>
>>> <https://www.bailii.org/recent-decisions.html>
>>>
>>> I want to read the case of Sam Melia, who was found guilty on 24th
>>> January of distributing hate stickers. The CPS describe this case
>>> here.
>>>
>>> <https://www.cps.gov.uk/cps/news/far-right-organiser-found-
>>> guilty-intentstir-racial-hatred-through-distribution-stickers>
>>>
>>> Where can I find it?
>>
>> There is more information here:
>>
>> https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/news/leeds-news/sam-melia-guilty-
>> publishing-stickers-28505094
>>
>> If by "read the case" you mean a transcript of the trial, there
>> probably isn't one.
>
> I'm not looking for a verbatim transcript of what was said in court.
> That is too much to expect.
>
> I'm interested to know how the judge applied the law in the Sam Melia
> case.
>
> I mean something similar to the following judgement (which happens to be
> about continuing NHS medical treatment).
>
> https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCOP/2023/40.html

You won't get anything quite like that, because your case was decided
by a jury. The judge's summing up would however contain his explanation
of the law to the jury, so that's what you'd want I would think.

>> He'll be sentenced on March 1st and it's possible that the sentencing
>> remarks might be published, perhaps.
>
> I presume a judgement, if there is one, would have been published before
> then?

I doubt there is a transcript, but you might be able to pay to have one
created. I suppose it might only cost a few hundred (at a complete guess)
if you just want the summing up. Alternatively you could try contacting
Sophie Corcoran the journalist who was presumably in court and may have
made notes about the summing up which she could send you for free.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/order-a-transcript-of-court-or-tribunal-proceedings-form-ex107

https://twitter.com/sophcorcoran

[Simon Parker]

You may not be aware, but BAILII is a charity and operates on a skeleton
staff (mid-single digit FTE employees).

As a result, the number of cases on which they produce reports is
limited due to funding constraints.

It is further limited by the fact that they are restricted to the number
of cases they can report per year because of copyright restrictions on
the transcription notes taken in court.

Finally, BAILII lost the contract with the government in 2022 which was
a major source of their funding with the government deciding that case
reporting should be handled by The National Archives (TNA) "Find Case
Law" service instead. (https://caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk/)

The higher courts are supposed to automatically send judgments to the
TNA but some are better at it than others.

That said, whilst Crown Court cases do not appear either on BAILII or on
TNA, they are all recorded so you'll need pay for a transcript which I
will expect to be prohibitively expensive. The BBC recently reported on
the cost of obtaining transcripts and how unjust this was in the
circumstances upon which they reported. [1]

I note that Jon Ribbens has provided a link for this so I won't
duplicate it and I think his suggestion of contacting the reporter that
was in court is an excellent idea.

Regards

S.P.

[1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67123893 [2]
[2] As a guide, the transcript for a 10 day rape trial was quoted at
£7,500 whilst a copy of the judge's sentencing remarks in an attempted
murder trial was quoted at £300.

[GB]

On 02/02/2024 19:42, Simon Parker wrote:

> That said, whilst Crown Court cases do not appear either on BAILII or on
> TNA, they are all recorded so you'll need pay for a transcript which I
> will expect to be prohibitively expensive.

Can one get hold of the recordings, and simply listen?

A machine transcription, whilst not very reliable, might be vastly
cheaper than a person doing it.

[billy bookcase]

"GB" <NOTso...@microsoft.invalid> wrote in message news:upjh1l$2o27v$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 02/02/2024 19:42, Simon Parker wrote:
>
>> That said, whilst Crown Court cases do not appear either on BAILII or on TNA, they are
>> all recorded so you'll need pay for a transcript which I will expect to be
>> prohibitively expensive.
>
> Can one get hold of the recordings, and simply listen?

Courts still employ reporters; but they now attend Court,
listen to the recordings afterwards to check for any mistakes
and produce transcripts on that basis

> A machine transcription, whilst not very reliable, might be
> vastly cheaper than a person doing it.

See above

bb




>
>
>

[Simon Parker]

On 02/02/2024 19:50, GB wrote:
> On 02/02/2024 19:42, Simon Parker wrote:
>
>> That said, whilst Crown Court cases do not appear either on BAILII or
>> on TNA, they are all recorded so you'll need pay for a transcript
>> which I will expect to be prohibitively expensive.
>
> Can one get hold of the recordings, and simply listen?

Absolutely not. It is considered that this is too open to abuse. One
may only obtain an official transcript of the recording and not the
recording itself.

> A machine transcription, whilst not very reliable, might be vastly
> cheaper than a person doing it.

As the audio recording is only available to selected transcribers, the
point is moot.

Regards

S.P.

[Mark Goodge]

On Fri, 2 Feb 2024 19:42:11 +0000, Simon Parker <simonpa...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>You may not be aware, but BAILII is a charity and operates on a skeleton
>staff (mid-single digit FTE employees).
>
>As a result, the number of cases on which they produce reports is
>limited due to funding constraints.
>
>It is further limited by the fact that they are restricted to the number
>of cases they can report per year because of copyright restrictions on
>the transcription notes taken in court.
>
>Finally, BAILII lost the contract with the government in 2022 which was
>a major source of their funding with the government deciding that case
>reporting should be handled by The National Archives (TNA) "Find Case
>Law" service instead. (https://caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk/)

BAILII's main problem is that their website is still stuck in the 1990s. The
design is obsolete, it's full of broken HTML, and comes nowhere near meeting
the requirements of the Public Sector Acessibility Regulations. Even the
"beta" version, which you might expect to take all this into account, is
nothing more than a limited visual redesign.

Back in the early 2010s, I was tangentially involved with a group trying to
break BAILII's monopoly on publishing judgments[1], and after that came to
nothing I had some contact with the Department of Justice about the
possibility of bidding for the contract to publish judgments when it was
next put up for tender. That came to nothing, but in any case I think that
the National Archives is probably the best place for it anyway. The NA case
law website isn't fully compliant with the PSAR, but I think that's an
unavoidable consequence of the need to make the web version as close as
possible to the printed version (which is definitive) of a published
judgment. And, unlike BAILLI, it is at least competant and valid HTML.

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20110902143000/http://judgmental.org.uk/

Mark

[Simon Parker]

I note Francis Davey, formerly of this parish, was also heavily involved.

I miss his posts.

Regards

S.P.

[GB]

Maybe, one of those selected transcribers ought to include an AI option?
These practices ought not to be immutable in the face of new technology.

What is more there ought to be vast amounts of audio, together with
transcriptions, with which to train the model. The transcription
companies could pool their transcriptions in return for a share in the
new model.




>
> Regards
>
> S.P.
>

[Simon Parker]

I genuinely recommend that you suggest this to HMCTS directly as I think
it has merit.

The e-mail address to use for this would be, I suggest,
HMCTSContra...@justice.gov.uk

I'd be intrigued to hear how they respond.

Regards

S.P.