When is a bedroom not a bedroom?

[Nick Odell]

This is not a bedroom tax question (though I suppose it could be) but
I'm finding Estate Agents particulars that claim a room to be a
bedroom when it is not possible to both fit a single bed in the room
and open and close the door.

AFAICT from Google, there's no legal definition based on size of what
is a bedroom (though I grant that a windowless room or a room accessed
only through another room can't be a bedroom) and I can't see councils
using any definition in their websites when referring to the "bedroom
tax." However I have found an instance of a council tendering for
rooms in HMOs and stipulating that each bedroom must be a minimum of
70.1sq ft.

Estate Agents would naturally prefer to offer a three-bedroom house
over, say, one I visited the other week which was a one-bedroom house
with two box-rooms, but can they?

Nick

[GB]

If the box-rooms have planning permission for use as a bedroom, I cannot
see any problems. The PP can be achieved through established use over a
period of time.

In your particular circs, to avoid disappointment, I suggest only
visiting properties which have a floorplan/ room sizes on RM.

[Roland Perry]

In message <ts0ol8tk34j9713i8...@4ax.com>, at 11:40:01 on
Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Nick Odell <ni...@themusicworkshop.plus.com> remarked:

>This is not a bedroom tax question (though I suppose it could be)

In other news, Nottingham City is apparently re-defining the second
bedroom of its [2-bed] council flats as a study, so that they can
continue to be occupied by benefits claimants who only qualify for one
bedroom. That's because it has very few "genuine" 1-bed flats to put the
otherwise displaced persons into, and the alternative is perhaps a
vastly more expensive B&B.

>but I'm finding Estate Agents particulars that claim a room to be a
>bedroom when it is not possible to both fit a single bed in the room
>and open and close the door.

An adult bed, presumably. A cot for an infant would be much smaller.
--
Roland Perry

[Dr Zoidberg]

"Nick Odell" <ni...@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote in message
news:ts0ol8tk34j9713i8...@4ax.com...

> This is not a bedroom tax question (though I suppose it could be) but
> I'm finding Estate Agents particulars that claim a room to be a
> bedroom when it is not possible to both fit a single bed in the room
> and open and close the door.

I'd also say that the location within the house is also a relevant factor as
some aren't suitable for use as a bedroom because of the position.

> AFAICT from Google, there's no legal definition based on size of what
> is a bedroom (though I grant that a windowless room or a room accessed
> only through another room can't be a bedroom) and I can't see councils
> using any definition in their websites when referring to the "bedroom
> tax." However I have found an instance of a council tendering for
> rooms in HMOs and stipulating that each bedroom must be a minimum of
> 70.1sq ft.

My GF was renting a "3 bedroom" house but one of those was little more than
a wedge shaped corridor on the way to the bathroom.

When she was assessed for housing benefit, the council agreed that this
wasn't a bedroom.

--
Alex

[Andrew May]

On 03/04/2013 11:40, Nick Odell wrote:

> (though I grant that a windowless room or a room accessed
> only through another room can't be a bedroom)

No? I've seen lots of Victorian Terraces where there third bedroom is
accessed from the second and is described as such. Whether it is used as
such by whoever buys it is another matter. I've also seen the same
arrangement with this third bedroom converted into a bathroom so that
the only way to visit the loo is through a someone else's bedroom.

[Roland Perry]

In message <kjh9em$bsv$1...@dont-email.me>, at 14:10:02 on Wed, 3 Apr 2013,
Dr Zoidberg <AlexNOOOO!!!!!!!!@drzoidberg.co.uk> remarked:

>My GF was renting a "3 bedroom" house but one of those was little more
>than a wedge shaped corridor on the way to the bathroom.
>
>When she was assessed for housing benefit, the council agreed that this
>wasn't a bedroom.

What do they do about rooms-beyond-rooms. Quite common in the middle
ages, and many Victorian terraces have them upstairs at the back. But
there are privacy issues for the person in the first of them. As indeed
there are for those situations where the furthest room has been
converted to the [only] bathroom in the house (so it's in a sense
ensuite to that bedroom, but not very accessible to any others).
--
Roland Perry

[Chris R]

>
>
> "Roland Perry" wrote in message news:s5missKr...@perry.co.uk...

I don't think the fact that a room is accessed through another or is only
big enough for a cot prevents it being described as a bedroom in estate
agents' particulars. Words don't have to have the same definitions when used
for different legal purposes.

I have seen big houses in which bedrooms are accessed though each other. My
own house has four ambiguous rooms which could be used as bedrooms at a
pinch, but only one of them I would currently describe as a bedroom (even
though it has no bed in it). If I were selling, I might use "study/bedroom
5" or similar. When I'm arranging insurance, it's a study.
--
Chris R

[Roland Perry]

In message <as2l0u...@mid.individual.net>, at 13:20:02 on Wed, 3 Apr
2013, Andrew May <andrew...@hotmail.com> remarked:

[oops, I appear to have inadvertently reinvented this posting almost
word for word.]

To add some legal content (social workers might get a bit upset
especially if there are children in the room) I've stayed in such houses
where the occupants of the orphaned bedrooms seem quite happy wandering
naked through the intermediate bedroom unannounced at all hours.
--
Roland Perry

[Man at B&Q]

On 3 Apr, 14:30, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <kjh9em$bs...@dont-email.me>, at 14:10:02 on Wed, 3 Apr 2013,
> Dr Zoidberg <AlexNOOOO!!!!!...@drzoidberg.co.uk> remarked:

>
> >My GF was renting a "3 bedroom" house but one of those was little more
> >than a wedge shaped corridor on the way to the bathroom.
>
> >When she was assessed for housing benefit, the council agreed that this
> >wasn't a bedroom.
>
> What do they do about rooms-beyond-rooms.

The count them as bedrooms. They also double count bedrooms and
reception rooms, e.g. 3/4 beds 2/3 receptions does indicate 6 not 7
rooms.

Basically, take anything an EA says with a pinch of salt until you see
the floorplan. If there's no floorplan in the particulars these days,
be suspicious.

MBQ

[Mark Goodge]

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 13:20:02 +0100, Andrew May put finger to keyboard and
typed:

Some friends of mine lived in a house where one of the bedrooms could only
be accessed via the bathroom.

More recently, we lived in a house where one of the bedrooms was acessed
through the main medroom. Time was when this was actually considered the
most suitable configuration for a child's bedroom.

Mark
--
Please take a short survey on salary perceptions: http://meyu.eu/am
My blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk

[Roland Perry]

In message <904pl8d4gtrg9gt4j...@news.markshouse.net>, at
21:30:03 on Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Mark Goodge
<use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> remarked:

>Some friends of mine lived in a house where one of the bedrooms could only
>be accessed via the bathroom.

I had a house once (about 300yrs old) where the rear section of upstairs
went, in order:

Hall/front stairs, master bedroom, bathroom, hall/rear stairs, bedroom
in modern extension.

We converted it to add a corridor in parallel to the bathroom, so that
it had only one door, and exit was possible from the master bedroom to
the back stairs (and the other bedroom which we used as an office)
without needing to go through the bathroom.

It's quite likely the bathroom in question used to be part of the
bedroom, as there was another bathroom with quite old fittings in the
front section of the house.
--
Roland Perry

[Janet]

In article <+JMmAGMA...@perry.co.uk>, rol...@perry.co.uk says...

>
> In message <as2l0u...@mid.individual.net>, at 13:20:02 on Wed, 3 Apr
> 2013, Andrew May <andrew...@hotmail.com> remarked:
> >> (though I grant that a windowless room or a room accessed
> >> only through another room can't be a bedroom)
> >
> >No? I've seen lots of Victorian Terraces where there third bedroom is
> >accessed from the second and is described as such. Whether it is used
> >as such by whoever buys it is another matter. I've also seen the same
> >arrangement with this third bedroom converted into a bathroom so that
> >the only way to visit the loo is through a someone else's bedroom.

The first house I bought was just like that.

> [oops, I appear to have inadvertently reinvented this posting almost
> word for word.]
>
> To add some legal content (social workers might get a bit upset
> especially if there are children in the room) I've stayed in such houses
> where the occupants of the orphaned bedrooms seem quite happy wandering
> naked through the intermediate bedroom unannounced at all hours.

Sounds just like student and family life to me :-)

Janet

[Humbug]

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 14:40:02 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

The "second bedroom" in my purpose-built first-floor maisonette is
only accessible throught hte kitchen, or from the outside via a fires
escape satircase.

The corresponding room in the ground floor maisonette is only
accessible throught the kitchen, and the kitchen is only accessible
through the living room.

--
Humbug

[Humbug]

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 14:30:03 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

The first floor purpose-built maisonette which I lived in some years
ago (not the current one which I referred to in an earlier post) had a
btahroom which was only accessible through the kitchen, which was only
accessible through the second reception room (which was never
described as a bedroom).

That was against building regulations at the time, but the surveyor
said that it was OK, as it had complied with the regulations in force
at the time it was built.

It came up on the market recently, and I was interested to see that
the second (of three) bedrooms had been converted into a bathroom, and
the original bathroom wall had been knocked down to make a bigger
kitchen.

--
Humbug

[Mark]

On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 21:10:02 +0100, Humbug <hum...@tofee.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 03 Apr 2013 14:30:03 +0100, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <kjh9em$bsv$1...@dont-email.me>, at 14:10:02 on Wed, 3 Apr 2013,
>>Dr Zoidberg <AlexNOOOO!!!!!!!!@drzoidberg.co.uk> remarked:
>>>My GF was renting a "3 bedroom" house but one of those was little more
>>>than a wedge shaped corridor on the way to the bathroom.
>>>
>>>When she was assessed for housing benefit, the council agreed that this
>>>wasn't a bedroom.
>>
>>What do they do about rooms-beyond-rooms. Quite common in the middle
>>ages, and many Victorian terraces have them upstairs at the back. But
>>there are privacy issues for the person in the first of them. As indeed
>>there are for those situations where the furthest room has been
>>converted to the [only] bathroom in the house (so it's in a sense
>>ensuite to that bedroom, but not very accessible to any others).
>
>The first floor purpose-built maisonette which I lived in some years
>ago (not the current one which I referred to in an earlier post) had a
>btahroom which was only accessible through the kitchen, which was only
>accessible through the second reception room (which was never
>described as a bedroom).
>
>That was against building regulations at the time, but the surveyor
>said that it was OK, as it had complied with the regulations in force
>at the time it was built.

IIRC there used to be rules that a bathroom could not directly join a
kitchen so people got around it by adding an extra door and creating a
tiny 'lobby' area in between.

>It came up on the market recently, and I was interested to see that
>the second (of three) bedrooms had been converted into a bathroom, and
>the original bathroom wall had been knocked down to make a bigger
>kitchen.
--

(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

[Roland Perry]

In message <58hql81efrhb1t915...@4ax.com>, at 10:25:01 on
Thu, 4 Apr 2013, Mark <i...@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> remarked:

>IIRC there used to be rules that a bathroom could not directly join a
>kitchen so people got around it by adding an extra door and creating a
>tiny 'lobby' area in between.

'Bathroom' in the USA sense too, the rule, iirc, was [paraphrasing] two
doors between a WC and the sink.
--
Roland Perry

[RJH]

On 03/04/2013 11:40, Nick Odell wrote:

> This is not a bedroom tax question (though I suppose it could be) but
> I'm finding Estate Agents particulars that claim a room to be a
> bedroom when it is not possible to both fit a single bed in the room
> and open and close the door.
>
> AFAICT from Google, there's no legal definition based on size of what
> is a bedroom (though I grant that a windowless room or a room accessed
> only through another room can't be a bedroom) and I can't see councils
> using any definition in their websites when referring to the "bedroom
> tax." However I have found an instance of a council tendering for
> rooms in HMOs and stipulating that each bedroom must be a minimum of
> 70.1sq ft.
>

I think, in law, it's worked the other way round. Anything approaching
habitable space has been classified as a bedroom - even kitchens. But
that's contract. I don't think bedroom has ever been defined in statute.
IANAL obviously!

> Estate Agents would naturally prefer to offer a three-bedroom house
> over, say, one I visited the other week which was a one-bedroom house
> with two box-rooms, but can they?
>

I think those EAs are a shambles. I'd raise and objection with the EA,
and if they got sniffy, a quick email to the RICS/NAEA. Then let it go.

Rob

[Goldenwight]

Surely, though, this insidious legislation is aimed at LA housing- do MANY of them fit the bill? I doubt it.

[R. Mark Clayton]

"Nick Odell" <ni...@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote in message
news:ts0ol8tk34j9713i8...@4ax.com...

Google up Parker Norris

[Sara]

In article <s5missKr...@perry.co.uk>,

I had an aunt and unclue who had that arrangement in a place they lived
in the 70s. I always felt awkward going through their bedroom to use the
loo when I popped in to say hello.

--
Sara

cats cats cats cats cats

[kat]

Our house was originally built as a 3 bedroom house, then extended. Two
bedrooms were built at the back accessed through the old 3rd bedroom. When
we bought it the vendor told us the estate agent said he could call it a 5
bedroom house, but he refused to do so - I would too. We called it, for
many years, the "playroom". Now, it's a study. Really there are too many
doors in it to make it any sort of bedroom, but my grand daughter sleeps in
it in her ReadyBed so I suppose it is a sort spare room.


--
kat
>^..^<

[Sam Plusnet]

In article <AIv5w2BM...@perry.co.uk>, rol...@perry.co.uk says...

Which leads to the question

Is an infant's nursery a bedroom?

--
Sam

[Roland Perry]

In message <MPG.2bc81ba78...@news.plus.net>, at 00:35:02 on
Fri, 5 Apr 2013, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> remarked:

>> >but I'm finding Estate Agents particulars that claim a room to be a
>> >bedroom when it is not possible to both fit a single bed in the room
>> >and open and close the door.
>>
>> An adult bed, presumably. A cot for an infant would be much smaller.
>
>Which leads to the question
>
>Is an infant's nursery a bedroom?

Depends on the context, but if it has an infant sleeping in it, then
yes. If it doesn't, then it might be a study.
--
Roland Perry

[kat]

Phil W Lee wrote:
> Mark <i...@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> considered Thu, 04 Apr 2013

.
>>
>> IIRC there used to be rules that a bathroom could not directly join a
>> kitchen so people got around it by adding an extra door and creating
>> a tiny 'lobby' area in between.
>

> There still are (although it's toilets, rather than bathrooms) which
> will come as no surprise to anyone who has had to get building control
> approval for kitchen extensions which encroach on the "lobby" for a
> downstairs loo.
> It's the major reason for may places being built with a "utility" or
> "laundry" room, between the kitchen and loo.

I thought that too, until just a month ago my husband was round at my son's
house discussing alterations to his house. He wants to extend his kitchen
into the part currently the the pantry, coal shed and "outside" toilet. I
put that in inverted commas because it is no longer outside, there being a
passage between th litchen door to the outside, which now has a door on it.

One option was to keep the toilet, and I had described to my husband how the
neighbour of a friend had done this, with a door to a tiny lobby. The
builder said it was no longer necessary, the rules had changed. This is a
builder I trust. he did work for us to a high standard and we had no
problems with th building inspector even when there were real problems - the
builder and the inspector worked together to overcome them. The inspector
even said we didn't need to change a window the builder thought we did.
He is cautious.

I believe my son is going for more space rather than the toilet, but does
anyone know the real position here?


--
kat
>^..^<

[Peter Parry]

On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 08:35:02 +0100, "kat" <little...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>I believe my son is going for more space rather than the toilet, but does
>anyone know the real position here?

The part document you need is Part G of the Building Regulations.

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_G_2010_V2.pdf

The need for a lobby in domestic premises between kitchens and toilets
was removed some years ago.

From the FAQ on Part G at
https://www.planningportal.gov.uk/buildingregulations/approveddocuments/partg/faq

"Requirement G4 – Sanitary Conveniences and Washing Facilities

What is required by G4?

This provision is similar to that contained in G1 of the previous
edition of Approved Document G, ... It sets out that adequate and
suitable sanitary conveniences (WCs and urinals) must be provided in
toilets or bathrooms and that adequate hand washing facilities must be
provided in or adjacent to rooms containing sanitary conveniences. Any
room containing a sanitary convenience, bidet or facility for washing
hands associated with a sanitary convenience must be separate from a
kitchen or area where food is prepared.

Is a ventilated lobby needed between a toilet and a food preparation
area?

Part G only requires that a WC and/or associated handwashing
facilities should be separated by a door from a food preparation area.
In dwellings, a lobby is not needed, as illustrated in diagrams 2 and
3 in AD G."

No lobby is now needed in domestic premises between a toilet and a
kitchen, only a door. There is still a need for a lobby in commercial
food preparation areas.

[kat]

Peter Parry wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Apr 2013 08:35:02 +0100, "kat" little...@hotmail.com

>

>> I believe my son is going for more space rather than the toilet, but
>> does anyone know the real position here?
>
> The part document you need is Part G of the Building Regulations.
>

<snip>

Thankyou Peter. I am glad that has been cleared up.


--
kat
>^..^<

[Martin Bonner]

On Friday, April 5, 2013 5:50:02 AM UTC+1, Phil W Lee wrote:
> Mark <i...@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> considered Thu, 04 Apr 2013

> 10:25:01 +0100 the perfect time to write:
> >IIRC there used to be rules that a bathroom could not directly join a
> >kitchen so people got around it by adding an extra door and creating a
> >tiny 'lobby' area in between.
>

> There still are (although it's toilets, rather than bathrooms) which
> will come as no surprise to anyone who has had to get building control
> approval for kitchen extensions which encroach on the "lobby" for a
> downstairs loo.

No there aren't. A toilet may now open off a kitchen provided that the
toilet contains a sink for washing your hands. I can't remember when
that changed. 10? 20? years ago.

[kat]

Phil W Lee wrote:
> "kat" <little...@hotmail.com> considered Fri, 05 Apr 2013 08:35:02

> +0100 the perfect time to write:
>

>> Phil W Lee wrote:
>>> Mark <i...@dontgetlotsofspamanymore.invalid> considered Thu, 04 Apr
>>> 2013
>> .
>>>>
>>>> IIRC there used to be rules that a bathroom could not directly
>>>> join a kitchen so people got around it by adding an extra door and
>>>> creating a tiny 'lobby' area in between.
>>>
>>> There still are (although it's toilets, rather than bathrooms) which
>>> will come as no surprise to anyone who has had to get building
>>> control approval for kitchen extensions which encroach on the
>>> "lobby" for a downstairs loo.
>>> It's the major reason for may places being built with a "utility" or
>>> "laundry" room, between the kitchen and loo.
>>
>> I thought that too, until just a month ago my husband was round at
>> my son's house discussing alterations to his house. He wants to
>> extend his kitchen into the part currently the the pantry, coal shed
>> and "outside" toilet. I put that in inverted commas because it is
>> no longer outside, there being a passage between th litchen door to
>> the outside, which now has a door on it.
>>
>> One option was to keep the toilet, and I had described to my husband
>> how the neighbour of a friend had done this, with a door to a tiny
>> lobby. The builder said it was no longer necessary, the rules had
>> changed.
>

> Sort of - you can get away with it if the WC has it's own hand washing
> facilities (including a hot water supply).
> Very few of the old "outside bog, now enclosed within a utility room"
> arrangements had this, or even space for it.
> Hence the utility or laundry room between, which may not be a food
> preparation area, but can be more easily arranged to have a wash
> basin, so that the loo complies with the regs.


That makes sense. I wasn't there when it was all discussed, I do know that
the downside of keeping the toilet was that it would take upp more room than
currently because the wall is only single brick and would need lining and
that would make the current "room" too small. The builder suggested
turning things around and moving the door, making it worse by topening into
useful space. I recall no mention of a basin but that might be because I
took it for granted! yet thinking about it, turning the loo round and
leaving the door where it is would be better to fit in a basin.

But yes. That does clear it up beautifully.:-)


--
kat
>^..^<

[Mark]

But many people would not like this arrangement. This may be worth
considering if you ever intend the sell the house.