"Commercial Use" Items

[Sam Plusnet]

Having lost a PC power supply as a result of a micro-power cut a short
while back, I decided to buy a desktop UPS to protect this PC and my NAS.

I didn't need anything special, since this is a small domestic setup.

I worked out what capacity I needed, and ordered the UPS from an online
supplier.
On receipt of the order, they sent an on-line form for me to fill in,
asking/requiring me to agree to the following:

"Non-Returnable / Special Order Goods Declaration
Thank you for your recent order.

Please be advised that your order contains 'special order' items that
are deemed commercial-only products.
As such these items are non-returnable goods unless faulty."

The implication of several remarks seems to be that without my prompt
agreement, the order will be 'delayed'.

There are any number of large scale UPS's which are clearly commercial
items, but a modest desktop UPS, just big enough to support a PC,
monitor and a NAS, is aimed at domestic use.

They want me to give up my rights as a retail customer. Is that reasonable?

--
Sam Plusnet

[Alan Lee]

On 20/02/2024 02:47, Sam Plusnet wrote:
....

> Please be advised that your order contains 'special order' items that
> are deemed commercial-only products.
> As such these items are non-returnable goods unless faulty."

...

> There are any number of large scale UPS's which are clearly commercial
> items, but a modest desktop UPS, just big enough to support a PC,
> monitor and a NAS, is aimed at domestic use.
>
> They want me to give up my rights as a retail customer.  Is that
> reasonable?

I'd be more inclined to think they were putting that in for data loss
purposes, rather than the quality/warranty on the equipment. The UPS is
what, £100, the data loss if it didnt work could be many £1000's.
Go to another Retailer.

[Mike Scott]

On 20/02/2024 02:47, Sam Plusnet wrote:
....
>

> They want me to give up my rights as a retail customer.  Is that
> reasonable?
>

IIRC you can agree to what you like.... but your consumer rights are
yours irrespective.

I'm not sure I'd deal with the company though.

--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

[Martin Brown]

On 20/02/2024 02:47, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> Having lost a PC power supply as a result of a micro-power cut a short
> while back, I decided to buy a desktop UPS to protect this PC and my NAS.
>
> I didn't need anything special, since this is a small domestic setup.

A good surge arrester might also be a good investment. I have had
calorific sparks jump from my modem after a nearby lightning strike
~300m away. Mains went down and to my amazement nothing of mine was
damaged. Neighbours DECT phones and bedside alarm clocks were all toast.

>
> I worked out what capacity I needed, and ordered the UPS from an online
> supplier.
> On receipt of the order, they sent an on-line form for me to fill in,
> asking/requiring me to agree to the following:
>
> "Non-Returnable / Special Order Goods Declaration
> Thank you for your recent order.
>
> Please be advised that your order contains 'special order' items that
> are deemed commercial-only products.
> As such these items are non-returnable goods unless faulty."
>
> The implication of several remarks seems to be that without my prompt
> agreement, the order will be 'delayed'.
>
> There are any number of large scale UPS's which are clearly commercial
> items, but a modest desktop UPS, just big enough to support a PC,
> monitor and a NAS, is aimed at domestic use.
>
> They want me to give up my rights as a retail customer.  Is that
> reasonable?

Not very. What sort of capacity are we talking about here?
Mine is bordering on commercial grade at 1.5kW.
I didn't have to waive my rights (bought from Amazon).


--
Martin Brown

[Roger Hayter]

I think they could probably refuse to sell to you if you are not a business
customer, but seeing you are a consumer not a business if they do sell to you
you retain your rights. Asking you to give them up is probably (IANAL) an
unfair contract term.

Quite a lot of sellers of computer parts (such as server motherboards) state
that because of the nature of the goods you must be a commercial buyer, but
don't ask you to say so. This is probably completely ineffective.


--
Roger Hayter

[Mark Goodge]

On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 02:47:13 +0000, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
>
>They want me to give up my rights as a retail customer. Is that reasonable?

It's neither reasonable nor enforceable. Your status as a consumer is a
matter of fact, not contract, and you can no more negotiate it away than you
can contractually agree to be French, or a teenager. If the company sells
the item to you, then they are selling it to a consumer and all consumer
legislation applies.

What they can do is to decline to sell it to you as a consumer, and insist
on proof of business status (eg, VAT registration, company registration,
etc) before entering into a contract with you. That's not uncommon for a lot
of B2B suppliers. If they only want to sell to businesses, they are entitled
to only sell to businesses. But they can't require you to lie and say that
you are a business when you are not. Especially if that requirement only
applies to certain products in their range.

Mark

[Sam Plusnet]

Thanks to everyone for responding.

I emailed the supplier and objected to their terms.

Their reply was:

"Please be advised that this unit is classed as a special order item, as
it is ordered directly from the manufacturer and of high specification
and value. They will not process the order until we confirm the special
order terms and conditions.

With special order terms and conditions, you need to confirm you are
ordering exactly what you need and it is to your specification, as the
unit cannot be returned unless it develops a fault within the warranty
period.
Your statutory rights are not affected, meaning that you can still
return the unit if faulty under the manufacturer warranty.

This implies that I would meet the same problem if I ordered from any
other supplier.

The CyberPower BR1200ELCD is a desktop UPS offering 720W/1200VA output,
so it certainly doesn't strike me as being 'commercial' in nature, nor
"of high specification and value".

--
Sam Plusnet

[Sam Plusnet]

On 20-Feb-24 10:04, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 20/02/2024 02:47, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> Having lost a PC power supply as a result of a micro-power cut a short
>> while back, I decided to buy a desktop UPS to protect this PC and my NAS.
>>
>> I didn't need anything special, since this is a small domestic setup.
>
> A good surge arrester might also be a good investment. I have had
> calorific sparks jump from my modem after a nearby lightning strike
> ~300m away. Mains went down and to my amazement nothing of mine was
> damaged. Neighbours DECT phones and bedside alarm clocks were all toast.

I agree.
The UPS I ordered has three output sockets which are battery backed and
surge protected. There are another three sockets which are only surge
protected. That seems like a reasonable compromise.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Roger Hayter]

FWIW, neither helps against lightning voltages transmitted on the telephone
wires - those quaint old copper wires people used to have coming into their
houses.

--
Roger Hayter

[Roger Hayter]

They are confused. I can see their dilemma. If it is a special order they
probably can't send it back, and didn't get very profitable terms. And by the
time it's been opened and found unsuitable[1] it will be 'B' stock and worth
less than they paid for it. But, unfortunately for them, the alternative is
simply not to sell it at all. They certainly aren't selling dozens to
businesses or it wouldn't be a special order! Pleasing the occasional customer
simply is not worth the cost of doing business for them. And they can't
maintain their profits by imposing unfair terms on you, even if you wanted to
accept them. It would be unfair competition for all the firms who stick to the
law, as well as unfair to you.

[1] I feel guilty about sending a perfectly good satellite box back to Amazon.
It had some strange logic, ISTR something like reading nil signal strength
for both if one input was good but the other not. The new one was the same so
I think it was deliberate. But Amazon was out by the value of return postage
and difficult-to-sell opened and connected goods. They can afford it though.

--
Roger Hayter

[Mark Goodge]

On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 18:49:51 +0000, Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:

[Quoting a potential supplier]

>Your statutory rights are not affected, meaning that you can still
>return the unit if faulty under the manufacturer warranty.

That's exactly the opposite of what statutory rights mean. Your statutory
rights mean you can return it if faulty even if it doesn't have a warranty.

Mark

[Les. Hayward]

I have a home brewed surge arrestor on my phone line with a gas
discharge device and two fuses. We get quite a bit of static induced on
the line here and from time to time the fuses blow - fortunately not
lost a router since it went in.

[Roger Hayter]

I had a dual, centre-earthed, spark gap as supplied by the GPO some time back
on mine. Didn't stop it blowing varistors now and again, though.


--
Roger Hayter

[Simon Parker]

I respectfully draw to your attention the first line of the description
for that product on the manufacturer's web-site [1]:

"CyberPower BR1200ELCD-UK offers *home* and office users a reliable
battery backup..." (highlighting mine).

Similarly, if one navigates to their "Solutions" and then "Home Theatre"
[2] using the main navigation menus, and then clicks the UPS image
displayed, the BRICs LCD range of units is listed in the category of
"Home & Office UPS Systems".

The manufacturer clearly targets this unit at the home market so I would
respectfully point that out to the retailer.

Similarly, I concur with what Mark Goodge has said elsewhere in the
thread. If you are purchasing this as a consumer, this is a matter of
fact and your rights as a consumer are enshrined in law and cannot be
changed by contract, waiver or disclaimer.

If you cannot get any joy with the particular retailer, I recommend
speaking to the manufacturer directly. Their contact details are on
their web-site.

However, be aware that they may have different channels for consumer and
business purchases and therefore may have different pricing strategies
to reflect the increased risks represented by sales to consumers.

Your choice may boil down to: insisting you are a consumer, with the
additional rights that affords you and therefore paying more for the
product, or accepting this particular supplier's "commercial only"
restriction to achieve a lower purchase price. (If you're using it for
a "Home Office", for example, you may choose to present yourself as a
commercial purchaser to avail of the better pricing available.)

Regards

S.P.

[1] https://www.cyberpower.com/uk/en/product/sku/br1200elcd-uk
[2] https://www.cyberpower.com/uk/en/solution/home-theater

[Martin Brown]

On 20/02/2024 19:47, Roger Hayter wrote:

Some of them do spark gap filter the incoming xDSL stream as well.

My first modem was damaged in a lightning strike but apart from that
they have generally survived and I get around one close hit a year. Tall
trees nearby that attract lightning and have the scars to show for it.

--
Martin Brown

[Sam Plusnet]

Thanks.

I have asked for the original order to be cancelled and (once this is
confirmed - it's in limbo at the moment) will try again from a different
supplier (albeit at a higher price).
If the same conditions crop up _after_ the order is placed, I will look
for a model from a different manufacturer.

--
Sam Plusnet