RMT - politically motivated strikes?

[notya...@gmail.com]

RMT members struck every other day last week, ostensively for more pay.

There may be other motivations: -

Continue overmanning - RMT have consistently opposed one man train operation, insisting a guard is necessary for "safety" - this is despite the fact that the last passenger killed on British Railways was Georgia Varley, manslaughter by her guard Christopher McGee.
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/merseyrail-guard-christopher-mcgee-jailed-3329790

Political

Mick Lynch appeared on TV wearing a "Coal not Dole" badge: -
https://e3.365dm.com/22/06/768x432/skynews-mick-lynch-rmt-union_5814405.jpg
this seems to hark back to the last major essentially political strike - the NUM in 1984/5.

I thought coal was a sedimentary deposits laid down in the Cambrian period when dinosaurs ruled the earth - is Mick Lynch some sort of pre-historic dinosaur?

On a more serious note, could the employers decide, particularly if they consider the strike political that if a worker goes on strike s/he is not paid again until they return to normal full time work? This would restrict the union's ability to cause a whole week of delay with just three days of industrial inaction.

[Roland Perry]

In message <ae5d4877-6610-465c...@googlegroups.com>, at
04:28:51 on Sun, 26 Jun 2022, "notya...@gmail.com"
<notya...@gmail.com> remarked:

>RMT members struck every other day last week, ostensively for more pay.
>
>There may be other motivations: -
>
>Continue overmanning - RMT have consistently opposed one man train
>operation, insisting a guard is necessary for "safety" - this is
>despite the fact that the last passenger killed on British Railways was
>Georgia Varley, manslaughter by her guard Christopher McGee.
>https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/merseyrail-guard-chr
>istopher-mcgee-jailed-3329790

I thought the last passengers killed were on that Scotrail HST which hit
a landslide in bad weather.

>Political
>
>Mick Lynch appeared on TV wearing a "Coal not Dole" badge: -
>https://e3.365dm.com/22/06/768x432/skynews-mick-lynch-rmt-union_5814405.jpg
>this seems to hark back to the last major essentially political strike
>- the NUM in 1984/5.
>
>I thought coal was a sedimentary deposits laid down in the Cambrian
>period when dinosaurs ruled the earth - is Mick Lynch some sort of
>pre-historic dinosaur?
>
>On a more serious note, could the employers decide, particularly if
>they consider the strike political that if a worker goes on strike s/he
>is not paid again until they return to normal full time work? This
>would restrict the union's ability to cause a whole week of delay with
>just three days of industrial inaction.

They did "return to normal work" on the non-strike days. It's just that
it's claimed 'all the trains were in the wrong place', which I don't
fully understand, because if on the strike day there were only 10%
trains running, surely the other 90% would largely be in the right place
in depots/sidings, not having stirred all day.
--
Roland Perry

[Michael Chare]

Are you not assuming that trains always start from the same place each
day? A train from London to Edinburgh might well start a day in London
but finish the day at Edinburgh.

[RustyHinge]

On 26/06/2022 17:57, Jeff wrote:

> On 26/06/2022 12:28, notya...@gmail.com wrote:

>> RMT members struck every other day last week, ostensively for more pay.
>>
>> There may be other motivations: -
>>
>> Continue overmanning - RMT have consistently opposed one man train
>> operation, insisting a guard is necessary for "safety" - this is
>> despite the fact that the last passenger killed on British Railways
>> was Georgia Varley, manslaughter by her guard Christopher McGee.
>

> Lee Pomeroy was killed Jan 2019 between London & Guilford, not by a rail
> worker, and there was a guard on the train.

Even a railway guard (say in USAnian: Railway God) can't oversee the
entire length of the train, but there needs to be someone competent in
charge. On this point, I agree with the RMT.

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

[Andy Burns]

notya...@gmail.com wrote:

> RMT have consistently opposed one man train operation, insisting a guard is
> necessary for "safety"
>

> I thought coal was a sedimentary deposits laid down in the Cambrian period
> when dinosaurs ruled the earth - is Mick Lynch some sort of pre-historic
> dinosaur?

Who are you, and what have you done with Mark Clayton :-P

[Roland Perry]

In message <t9ahg9$16v$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, at 22:02:00 on Sun, 26 Jun
2022, Michael Chare <mUNDERS...@chareDOTorg.uk> remarked:

I'm fully aware of patterns like that, and also that there's usually an
invisible "depot near.." in front of City names. (Which doesn't change
the proposition).

But when the music stops the day before the strike, those trains will be
in place, and rather than be deployed the next day, will idle, until
being in exactly the right place to resume operations the day after the
strike.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <t9a4rb$3vhvp$1...@dont-email.me>, at 18:26:03 on Sun, 26 Jun
2022, RustyHinge <rusty...@foobar.girolle.co.uk> remarked:

>On 26/06/2022 17:57, Jeff wrote:
>> On 26/06/2022 12:28, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>> RMT members struck every other day last week, ostensively for more pay.
>>>
>>> There may be other motivations: -
>>>
>>> Continue overmanning - RMT have consistently opposed one man train
>>>operation, insisting a guard is necessary for "safety" - this is
>>>despite the fact that the last passenger killed on British Railways
>>>was Georgia Varley, manslaughter by her guard Christopher McGee.
>> Lee Pomeroy was killed Jan 2019 between London & Guilford, not by a
>>rail worker, and there was a guard on the train.
>
>Even a railway guard (say in USAnian: Railway God) can't oversee the
>entire length of the train, but there needs to be someone competent in
>charge.

Competent at what, though. Constantly patrolling the train to check for
rapists and muggers, or skilled at single-handedly detraining passengers
safely when a train breaks down and typically 3hrs later they decide
that it's now the time to do that.

>On this point, I agree with the RMT.

Let's first decide what aspect of safety they mean.
--
Roland Perry

[notya...@gmail.com]

On Monday, 27 June 2022 at 00:00:37 UTC+1, RustyHinge wrote:
> On 26/06/2022 17:57, Jeff wrote:
> > On 26/06/2022 12:28, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> RMT members struck every other day last week, ostensively for more pay.
> >>
> >> There may be other motivations: -
> >>
> >> Continue overmanning - RMT have consistently opposed one man train
> >> operation, insisting a guard is necessary for "safety" - this is
> >> despite the fact that the last passenger killed on British Railways
> >> was Georgia Varley, manslaughter by her guard Christopher McGee.
> >
> > Lee Pomeroy was killed Jan 2019 between London & Guilford, not by a rail
> > worker, and there was a guard on the train.

Not in this list: -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_accidents_in_the_United_Kingdom#1995_onwards:_Post-privatisation

Was this the guy who stuck his head out of a window? (so misadventure)

>
> Even a railway guard (say in USAnian: Railway God) can't oversee the
> entire length of the train, but there needs to be someone competent in
> charge. On this point, I agree with the RMT.

Loads of trains, especially on London Underground have automatic doors and run without guards. No passengers killed as a result.

The driver is in charge.

I have oft been delayed by trains unable to set off because the guard is absent , late to change over etc.

[notya...@gmail.com]

I have not changed anything. It did used to put my name, but seems to have ceased doing so.

[David McNeish]

On Monday, 27 June 2022 at 11:49:53 UTC+1, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, 27 June 2022 at 00:00:37 UTC+1, RustyHinge wrote:
> > On 26/06/2022 17:57, Jeff wrote:
> > > On 26/06/2022 12:28, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > >> RMT members struck every other day last week, ostensively for more pay.
> > >>
> > >> There may be other motivations: -
> > >>
> > >> Continue overmanning - RMT have consistently opposed one man train
> > >> operation, insisting a guard is necessary for "safety" - this is
> > >> despite the fact that the last passenger killed on British Railways
> > >> was Georgia Varley, manslaughter by her guard Christopher McGee.
> > >
> > > Lee Pomeroy was killed Jan 2019 between London & Guilford, not by a rail
> > > worker, and there was a guard on the train.
> Not in this list: -
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_accidents_in_the_United_Kingdom#1995_onwards:_Post-privatisation
>
> Was this the guy who stuck his head out of a window? (so misadventure)
> >
> > Even a railway guard (say in USAnian: Railway God) can't oversee the
> > entire length of the train, but there needs to be someone competent in
> > charge. On this point, I agree with the RMT.
> Loads of trains, especially on London Underground have automatic doors and run without guards. No passengers killed as a result.

Not sure what you mean by "no passengers killed as a result". Think there
have been numerous incidents of passengers caught between trains and
platforms, and shortcomings detected in what drivers can see from mirrors/
cctv.

[Andy Burns]

notya...@gmail.com wrote:

>> Who are you, and what have you done with Mark Clayton :-P
>
> I have not changed anything. It did used to put my name, but seems to have ceased doing so.

Sometimes your name appears in full, othertimes a munged version of your email
address appears. But I wasn't referring to that, mostly your opinions appear to
be a million miles from mine ...

[Theo]

notya...@gmail.com <notya...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 27 June 2022 at 00:00:37 UTC+1, RustyHinge wrote:
> > On 26/06/2022 17:57, Jeff wrote:
> > > On 26/06/2022 12:28, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > >> RMT members struck every other day last week, ostensively for more pay.
> > >>
> > >> There may be other motivations: -
> > >>
> > >> Continue overmanning - RMT have consistently opposed one man train
> > >> operation, insisting a guard is necessary for "safety" - this is
> > >> despite the fact that the last passenger killed on British Railways
> > >> was Georgia Varley, manslaughter by her guard Christopher McGee.
> > >
> > > Lee Pomeroy was killed Jan 2019 between London & Guilford, not by a rail
> > > worker, and there was a guard on the train.
>
> Not in this list: -
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_accidents_in_the_United_Kingdom#1995_onwards:_Post-privatisation

He was stabbed on a train. It was not a 'rail accident' as it was nothing
to do the the railway (could equally have been on the street).

> Was this the guy who stuck his head out of a window? (so misadventure)

That was Gatwick Express in August 2016 (deliberately seeking out the one
opening window on the train). Again that list doesn't cover suicides or
misadventure (people being on the track when they shouldn't, climbing on the
roof and getting zapped by 25kV, etc).

The 'safety' the RMT are talking about is not defending from people with
knives or guns, or trepassers, but dealing with passengers in the aftermath
of incidents, like broken down trains or driver incapacitated.

Obviously circumstances and risks vary: the Isle of Wight is not the same as
the Highlands of Scotland, which are both different from the East Coast
Mainline into King's Cross. DOO covers some of those situations reasonably,
but not all of them.

> > Even a railway guard (say in USAnian: Railway God) can't oversee the
> > entire length of the train, but there needs to be someone competent in
> > charge. On this point, I agree with the RMT.
>
> Loads of trains, especially on London Underground have automatic doors and
> run without guards. No passengers killed as a result.

https://www.railengineer.co.uk/mind-the-gap-2/

In particular, LU stations are staffed and crowd control measures imposed to
prevent platform overcrowding, a source of PTI incidents. Many NR stations
are unstaffed and the nearest staff member aside from the driver is a long
way away if there's an incident.

Theo

[Roger Hayter]

On 27 Jun 2022 at 11:49:45 BST, "notya...@gmail.com"

<notya...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, 27 June 2022 at 00:00:37 UTC+1, RustyHinge wrote:
>> On 26/06/2022 17:57, Jeff wrote:
>>> On 26/06/2022 12:28, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>> RMT members struck every other day last week, ostensively for more pay.
>>>>
>>>> There may be other motivations: -
>>>>
>>>> Continue overmanning - RMT have consistently opposed one man train
>>>> operation, insisting a guard is necessary for "safety" - this is
>>>> despite the fact that the last passenger killed on British Railways
>>>> was Georgia Varley, manslaughter by her guard Christopher McGee.
>>>
>>> Lee Pomeroy was killed Jan 2019 between London & Guilford, not by a rail
>>> worker, and there was a guard on the train.
>
> Not in this list: -
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_accidents_in_the_United_Kingdom#1995_onwards:_Post-privatisation
>
> Was this the guy who stuck his head out of a window? (so misadventure)
>
>>
>> Even a railway guard (say in USAnian: Railway God) can't oversee the
>> entire length of the train, but there needs to be someone competent in
>> charge. On this point, I agree with the RMT.
>
> Loads of trains, especially on London Underground have automatic doors and run
> without guards. No passengers killed as a result.

They do stop every three minutes at a staffed station. That is a bit different
from being ninety minutes on a train with no possibility of official help or
supervision.

>
> The driver is in charge.
>
> I have oft been delayed by trains unable to set off because the guard is
> absent , late to change over etc.
>
>>
>> --
>> Rusty Hinge
>> To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

--
Roger Hayter

[Fredxx]

On 26/06/2022 18:26, RustyHinge wrote:
> On 26/06/2022 17:57, Jeff wrote:
>> On 26/06/2022 12:28, notya...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>> RMT members struck every other day last week, ostensively for more pay.
>>>
>>> There may be other motivations: -
>>>
>>> Continue overmanning - RMT have consistently opposed one man train
>>> operation, insisting a guard is necessary for "safety" - this is
>>> despite the fact that the last passenger killed on British Railways
>>> was Georgia Varley, manslaughter by her guard Christopher McGee.
>>
>> Lee Pomeroy was killed Jan 2019 between London & Guilford, not by a
>> rail worker, and there was a guard on the train.
>
> Even a railway guard (say in USAnian: Railway God) can't oversee the
> entire length of the train, but there needs to be someone competent in
> charge. On this point, I agree with the RMT.

That is why technology is used in advanced countries such as cameras
along the platform to make sure people aren't trapped in doors. One man
operation has been going for some time on the London Underground.

Many years ago there was a death involving an old lady caught in the
sliding train doors where she was dragged to her death. A guard didn't
prevent the death.

Sometimes shit happens. If only we applied the same care and attention
to road layouts.

[Theo]

Fredxx <fre...@spam.uk> wrote:
> That is why technology is used in advanced countries such as cameras
> along the platform to make sure people aren't trapped in doors. One man
> operation has been going for some time on the London Underground.

Many mainline trains have that.

> Many years ago there was a death involving an old lady caught in the
> sliding train doors where she was dragged to her death. A guard didn't
> prevent the death.

In 2012-2017, there were annually average 3.0 fatalities due to
platform/train interface (doors, gaps, steps, etc) on the mainline, 1.2 on
LU. As well as 51.6 + 14.4 major injuries and 1354 + 409 minor ones. It is
a nontrivial risk.

> If only we applied the same care and attention to road layouts.

Can't disagree with that...

Theo

[notya...@gmail.com]

True, but none killed apart from Georgia Varley [above], whose train had a guard.