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Scalpel in first aid kit on person/in car = offensive weapon?
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Phil
Oct 28, 2012, 3:05:01 PM10/28/12
to
Hello,
This is a rather ridiculous question that should never have to be asked but having heard of disabled people being prosecuted for carrying a Swiss Army knife in their car (Google: Rodney Knowles) I guess the next question is whether a scalpel or one-time use scissors, in a first aid kit, in the car or on person while travelling, is an offensive weapon?
Thanks.
Phil
This is a rather ridiculous question that should never have to be asked but having heard of disabled people being prosecuted for carrying a Swiss Army knife in their car (Google: Rodney Knowles) I guess the next question is whether a scalpel or one-time use scissors, in a first aid kit, in the car or on person while travelling, is an offensive weapon?
Thanks.
Phil
Percy Picacity
Oct 28, 2012, 4:05:02 PM10/28/12
to
--
Percy Picacity
Clive George
Oct 28, 2012, 4:25:02 PM10/28/12
to
On 28/10/2012 19:05, Phil wrote:
> Hello,
>
> This is a rather ridiculous question that should never have to be asked but having heard of disabled people being prosecuted for carrying a Swiss Army knife in their car (Google: Rodney Knowles) I guess the next question is whether a scalpel or one-time use scissors, in a first aid kit, in the car or on person while travelling, is an offensive weapon?
The Rodney Knowles case wasn't about a Swiss Army knife. The serrated
> Hello,
>
> This is a rather ridiculous question that should never have to be asked but having heard of disabled people being prosecuted for carrying a Swiss Army knife in their car (Google: Rodney Knowles) I guess the next question is whether a scalpel or one-time use scissors, in a first aid kit, in the car or on person while travelling, is an offensive weapon?
edge and locking blade appear to be the important differences to most
swiss army knives.
(I do wonder if their Rescue model is legal in the UK - locking serrated
blade.)
Ken
Oct 28, 2012, 5:10:02 PM10/28/12
to
In article <L-OdneumFastDhDN...@brightview.co.uk>, Clive
George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> writes
If the police arrested the man and the case went to court the question
the jury would have to decide on would be whether the man had good
reason or lawful authority.
I've never heard of first aid kits containing scalpels, I would have
thought that the man might have a bit of explaining to do.
I can't see what being disabled has got to do with it. The man was
prosecuted, was he convicted?
--
Ken
George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> writes
the jury would have to decide on would be whether the man had good
reason or lawful authority.
I've never heard of first aid kits containing scalpels, I would have
thought that the man might have a bit of explaining to do.
I can't see what being disabled has got to do with it. The man was
prosecuted, was he convicted?
--
Ken
R. Mark Clayton
Oct 28, 2012, 4:10:03 PM10/28/12
to
A bunch of keys can be an offensive weapon - it all depends on the intent.
I have a similar knife in my car and a heavy adjustable wrench,
screw-drivers and other tools, however these are for roadside repairs not
prospective assault.
"Phil" <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cfc34c62-3cf1-4bc9...@googlegroups.com...
I have a similar knife in my car and a heavy adjustable wrench,
screw-drivers and other tools, however these are for roadside repairs not
prospective assault.
"Phil" <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cfc34c62-3cf1-4bc9...@googlegroups.com...
Bill Taylor
Oct 28, 2012, 4:30:02 PM10/28/12
to
On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 19:05:01 +0000, Phil <philmc...@gmail.com>
wrote:
A disabled person prosecuted for carrying a Swiss army knife in his
car sounds like an outrageous overreaction, but googling found
http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/Police-arrested-disabled-fruit-knife-man/story-11739409-detail/story.html
which says
"Supt Meakin said in his statement: "At 11.45pm on February 23, police
received a report that while Mr Knowles was in the Highweek Inn he had
made an alleged threat that he was going to use a knife to harm
someone.
"The police were advised that Mr Knowles had left the address in a
vehicle.
"The vehicle was stopped a short while later by my police officers,
where Mr Knowles was arrested for supplying a positive breath test. A
further test at the police station proved he was under the legal drink
drive limit."
"The vehicle was searched for a weapon and a Buck Whittaker lock knife
was found. The knife is illegal and has a serrated edge."
That presents the case in a rather different light.
wrote:
car sounds like an outrageous overreaction, but googling found
http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/Police-arrested-disabled-fruit-knife-man/story-11739409-detail/story.html
which says
"Supt Meakin said in his statement: "At 11.45pm on February 23, police
received a report that while Mr Knowles was in the Highweek Inn he had
made an alleged threat that he was going to use a knife to harm
someone.
"The police were advised that Mr Knowles had left the address in a
vehicle.
"The vehicle was stopped a short while later by my police officers,
where Mr Knowles was arrested for supplying a positive breath test. A
further test at the police station proved he was under the legal drink
drive limit."
"The vehicle was searched for a weapon and a Buck Whittaker lock knife
was found. The knife is illegal and has a serrated edge."
That presents the case in a rather different light.
Periander
Oct 28, 2012, 4:35:02 PM10/28/12
to
On 28-Oct-2012, Phil <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> This is a rather ridiculous question that should never have to be asked
> but having heard of disabled people being prosecuted for carrying a Swiss
> Army knife in their car (Google: Rodney Knowles)
http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/living-hell-hands-violent-bullying-father/story-11689429-detail/story.html
(Who sounds very much like the sort of chap not to be trusted with a pin let
alone anything else)
Who would appear to be the same one as this ...
http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/Police-arrested-disabled-fruit-knife-man/story-11739409-detail/story.html
Who was arrested for possessing the knife after he threatened to stab
someone?
> I guess the next question is whether a scalpel or one-time use scissors,
> offensive weapon?
Is a scalpel a "A made offensive weapon"? ... "No, it's a made medical
instrument"
Is a scalpel "Adapted to be used as an offensive weapon"? ... "No it hasn't
been adapted from anything, it is as it was made"
Well in that case is your scalpel, "Intended to be used as an offensive
weapon" ... "No it is intended to be used for medical reasons ... removing a
splinter perhaps or something similar"
So there you go ... not an offensive weapon
Excuse my flippancy but if you're going to use as an example of police over
enthusiasm the case of a thoroughly violent man arrested for possessing a
knife after threatening to stab someone then expect a little light hearted
correction ...
... oh and by the way it wasn't a "Swiss Army Penknife" (Some criminals lie
you know) ... it was a serated bladed lock knife an image and description of
which may be found here ...
http://www.knivesplus.com/buckknifebu-750bkx.html ... ;-)
--
All the best,
Periander
Periander
Oct 28, 2012, 4:40:01 PM10/28/12
to
On 28-Oct-2012, Clive George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> (I do wonder if their Rescue model is legal in the UK - locking serrated
> blade.)
for having it with you. Including a few years ago a chap in a Chislehurst
pub with a machete ... he was cutting sugar cane. The police officers called
to pub left with a small piece each and the chap kept his machete ...
Nick Odell
Oct 28, 2012, 6:15:02 PM10/28/12
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On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 20:35:02 +0000, "Periander" <u...@britwar.couk>
wrote:
Needless to say, it wasn't the buck knife in the carefully posed
photograph illustrating the article here...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1266170/Disabled-caravanner-prosecuted-keeping-penknife-car-use-picnics.html
Nick
wrote:
photograph illustrating the article here...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1266170/Disabled-caravanner-prosecuted-keeping-penknife-car-use-picnics.html
Nick
Zapp Brannigan
Oct 28, 2012, 7:35:01 PM10/28/12
to
"Nick Odell" <gurzhfvp...@ntlworld.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:9dbr8898roppufeeo...@4ax.com...
> Needless to say, it wasn't the buck knife in the carefully posed
> photograph illustrating the article here...
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1266170/Disabled-caravanner-prosecuted-keeping-penknife-car-use-picnics.html
Jethro_uk
Oct 28, 2012, 8:25:02 PM10/28/12
to
On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 21:10:02 +0000, Ken wrote:
> I can't see what being disabled has got to do with it. The man was
> prosecuted, was he convicted?
ISTR a case somewhere, where a one-armed fisherman was allowed a lock
> I can't see what being disabled has got to do with it. The man was
> prosecuted, was he convicted?
knife, as it was the only way he could gut fish ....
Periander
Oct 28, 2012, 6:35:02 PM10/28/12
to
On 28-Oct-2012, Nick Odell <gurzhfvp...@ntlworld.com.invalid> wrote:
> >... oh and by the way it wasn't a "Swiss Army Penknife" (Some criminals
> >lie
> >you know) ... it was a serated bladed lock knife an image and description
> >of
> >which may be found here ...
> >http://www.knivesplus.com/buckknifebu-750bkx.html ... ;-)
>
> Needless to say, it wasn't the buck knife in the carefully posed
> photograph illustrating the article here...
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1266170/Disabled-caravanner-prosecuted-keeping-penknife-car-use-picnics.html
that's nothing like the one he was charged with possessing after threatening
to kill someone.
Strange that the Daily Mail should champion a serial violent child sex
offender. They usually want them hanged drawn and quartered. A man who
regularly offended whilst on bail stating "no regulation by a magistrate is
going to stop me". (For mod purposes see the links in my initial post).
Colour me old fashioned but when I see reporting like that I could easily be
persuaded that the reporters and editors responsible should be regularly
publicly flogged.
philmc...@gmail.com
Oct 28, 2012, 8:15:02 PM10/28/12
to
On Sunday, 28 October 2012 21:10:07 UTC, Ken wrote:
>
> I've never heard of first aid kits containing scalpels, I would have
>
> thought that the man might have a bit of explaining to do.
I am a qualified first aider. Sometimes having a knife or scissors handy in the first aid kit is the best way to remove clothing, cut bandages, or perform a tracheotomy for example.
>
> I've never heard of first aid kits containing scalpels, I would have
>
> thought that the man might have a bit of explaining to do.
The weight and bulk of a scalpel is negligible. Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it....
philmc...@gmail.com
Oct 28, 2012, 8:15:02 PM10/28/12
to
philmc...@gmail.com
Oct 28, 2012, 8:20:01 PM10/28/12
to
philmc...@gmail.com
Oct 28, 2012, 8:20:02 PM10/28/12
to
The gravity of the sentences wrt offensive weapons (in particular bladed instruments) makes me think twice about carrying one on person/in the car even if there was reasonable cause for it.
A.Lee
Oct 29, 2012, 3:40:02 AM10/29/12
to
place, they must have a valid reason for its use.
Maybe you mean a 'flick knife' which are illegal in public, and cannot
be bought legally now.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.
Dr Zoidberg
Oct 29, 2012, 3:55:02 AM10/29/12
to
training question.
Possession of an offensive weapon - having with you in a public place an
article made, adapted or intended for causing harm.
Secondly possession of a bladed article - having with you in a public place
without lawful excuse or good cause a bladed or pointed article.
On the former, the hypothetical scalpel in a first aid kit would only become
illegal if you intended to use it to cause harm - if you start threatening
someone with it for example.
On the latter, it is obviously a bladed article, but having it included in a
first aid kit in a car boot would be a good cause (though scissors might be
more sensible).
For bladed articles, there is an exemption for a folding pocket knife with a
blade less than three inches long. A standard sized swiss army knife has a
2.75" folding blade. The larger sized ones are over three inches and have a
locking knife so are not included in the exemption. If you have one of those
with you while going camping - fine. If you have one with you while going to
the pub - not fine.
--
Alex
the Omrud
Oct 29, 2012, 4:45:02 AM10/29/12
to
On 28/10/2012 22:35, Periander wrote:
> Strange that the Daily Mail should champion a serial violent child sex
> offender. They usually want them hanged drawn and quartered. A man who
> regularly offended whilst on bail stating "no regulation by a magistrate is
> going to stop me". (For mod purposes see the links in my initial post).
> Colour me old fashioned but when I see reporting like that I could easily be
> persuaded that the reporters and editors responsible should be regularly
> publicly flogged.
That being your position, it's probably best to make sure that you don't
> Strange that the Daily Mail should champion a serial violent child sex
> offender. They usually want them hanged drawn and quartered. A man who
> regularly offended whilst on bail stating "no regulation by a magistrate is
> going to stop me". (For mod purposes see the links in my initial post).
> Colour me old fashioned but when I see reporting like that I could easily be
> persuaded that the reporters and editors responsible should be regularly
> publicly flogged.
have any whips in your car when you go out.
--
David
Sara
Oct 29, 2012, 5:35:01 AM10/29/12
to
In article <wjrjs.28995$W63....@fx05.am4>,
Moving slightly away from the purely legal here, I just wanted to say I
always carry a Swiss Army knife. It's the Victorinox CyberTool34 which I
was given as a gift many years ago. As well as all the usual tools it
has a set of screwdrivers which I've taken loads of computers apart
with*. I've also opened loads of bottles of beer, tins of beans when we
bought out motor-home and forgot a can-opener, as well as vacuum packed
cheeses which you can then slive, etc.
The only time I've ever had a problem carrying it around was boarding an
internal flight when I'd forgotten to take it out of my handbag. Luckily
I had time to run around and buy a padded envelope and stamps and find a
post-box to post it to myself so it was waiting for me when I got home.
Over the years I've lost a few of the screw-driver heads, I really must
get some more.
*It's amazing how many people ask you over for a drink/meal and then
just mention in passing that they've got a problem with their computer
and would you mind having a quick look ;-)
--
Sara
cats cats cats cats cats
always carry a Swiss Army knife. It's the Victorinox CyberTool34 which I
was given as a gift many years ago. As well as all the usual tools it
has a set of screwdrivers which I've taken loads of computers apart
with*. I've also opened loads of bottles of beer, tins of beans when we
bought out motor-home and forgot a can-opener, as well as vacuum packed
cheeses which you can then slive, etc.
The only time I've ever had a problem carrying it around was boarding an
internal flight when I'd forgotten to take it out of my handbag. Luckily
I had time to run around and buy a padded envelope and stamps and find a
post-box to post it to myself so it was waiting for me when I got home.
Over the years I've lost a few of the screw-driver heads, I really must
get some more.
*It's amazing how many people ask you over for a drink/meal and then
just mention in passing that they've got a problem with their computer
and would you mind having a quick look ;-)
--
Sara
cats cats cats cats cats
D.M. Procida
Oct 29, 2012, 5:40:02 AM10/29/12
to
Nick Odell <gurzhfvp...@ntlworld.com.invalid> wrote:
> >... oh and by the way it wasn't a "Swiss Army Penknife" (Some criminals
> >lie you know) ... it was a serated bladed lock knife an image and
> >description of which may be found here ...
> >http://www.knivesplus.com/buckknifebu-750bkx.html ... ;-)
>
> Needless to say, it wasn't the buck knife in the carefully posed
> photograph illustrating the article here...
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1266170/Disabled-caravanner-prosec
> uted-keeping-penknife-car-use-picnics.html
Impossible. The Daily Mail would never publish lies in order to make a
> >... oh and by the way it wasn't a "Swiss Army Penknife" (Some criminals
> >lie you know) ... it was a serated bladed lock knife an image and
> >description of which may be found here ...
> >http://www.knivesplus.com/buckknifebu-750bkx.html ... ;-)
>
> Needless to say, it wasn't the buck knife in the carefully posed
> photograph illustrating the article here...
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1266170/Disabled-caravanner-prosec
> uted-keeping-penknife-car-use-picnics.html
story seem more dramatic and outrageous.
Daniele
D.M. Procida
Oct 29, 2012, 5:40:09 AM10/29/12
to
Dr Zoidberg <AlexNOOOO!!!!!!!!@drzoidberg.co.uk> wrote:
> For bladed articles, there is an exemption for a folding pocket knife with a
> blade less than three inches long. A standard sized swiss army knife has a
> 2.75" folding blade. The larger sized ones are over three inches and have a
> locking knife so are not included in the exemption. If you have one of those
> with you while going camping - fine. If you have one with you while going to
> the pub - not fine.
If you want to get on the Eurostar at St Pancras with your Opinel (with
> For bladed articles, there is an exemption for a folding pocket knife with a
> blade less than three inches long. A standard sized swiss army knife has a
> 2.75" folding blade. The larger sized ones are over three inches and have a
> locking knife so are not included in the exemption. If you have one of those
> with you while going camping - fine. If you have one with you while going to
> the pub - not fine.
a locking blade) they will confiscate it.
I presume it's up to them what articles you carry onto the train, so the
law doesn't actually matter, even if you're going camping with it...
Daniele
Jethro_uk
Oct 29, 2012, 6:00:06 AM10/29/12
to
arm.
David Hearn
Oct 29, 2012, 4:55:02 AM10/29/12
to
seen in any official/recommended First Aid kit. And in all the years
I've done my training, I don't recall tracheostomy ever coming up in the
syllabus or training.
I would very much imagine that someone attempting one of these (even a
qualified first aider) who hasn't had specific training in these
procedures would have some difficulty playing the "Good Samaritan" card
should anything go wrong (which I'd imagine would be more likely with
untrained surgical procedures than normal first aid procedures).
As for using a scalpel to cut clothing off - sounds rather dangerous to
me (both for the patient, and the first aider).
Scissors (dressing or clothing cutters) in a first aid kit is certainly
something I'd expect to see though.
Of course, if someone has a higher level of emergency medical training
that a first aider (e.g. paramedic etc which might include emergency
surgery training), then it might be different.
D
Steve Firth
Oct 29, 2012, 6:55:02 AM10/29/12
to
Sara <sarame...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
> *It's amazing how many people ask you over for a drink/meal and then
> just mention in passing that they've got a problem with their computer
> and would you mind having a quick look ;-)
I was at a party a few years ago. I was introduced to a solicitor. We
mutually commiserated on the party experience of revealing one's profession
then getting collared for free advice. After a couple of minutes he said
... "Actually we have this problem with our PCs at work."
--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/
[snip]
> *It's amazing how many people ask you over for a drink/meal and then
> just mention in passing that they've got a problem with their computer
> and would you mind having a quick look ;-)
mutually commiserated on the party experience of revealing one's profession
then getting collared for free advice. After a couple of minutes he said
... "Actually we have this problem with our PCs at work."
--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/
Steve Firth
Oct 29, 2012, 6:55:02 AM10/29/12
to
words like "pleb".
--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/
Sara
Oct 29, 2012, 7:25:02 AM10/29/12
to
In article
<1926049009373200426.422209%steve%-mallo...@news.eternal-september.o
rg>,
My brother-in-law is a GP and tries very hard not to reveal it when on
holiday. Especially on the plane.
<1926049009373200426.422209%steve%-mallo...@news.eternal-september.o
rg>,
holiday. Especially on the plane.
Dr Zoidberg
Oct 29, 2012, 8:00:05 AM10/29/12
to
"D.M. Procida" <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote in
message
news:1kspzub.1irp66d9tls3uN%real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk...
My swiss army knife is perfectly legal to carry, but I wouldn't expect to be
allowed through a security check at most venues with it so if I'm going to
see a band I'll leave it at home.
--
Alex
philmc...@gmail.com
Oct 29, 2012, 7:30:03 AM10/29/12
to
Secondly, at the end of the day a scalpel is a tool and a multipurposed one at that. One can not be faulted for keeping an extra tool in their tool kit, or can they?
Ken
Oct 29, 2012, 9:00:11 AM10/29/12
to
In article <k6lcmt$iuq$1...@dont-email.me>, Dr Zoidberg
<AlexNOOOO!!!!!!!!@drzoidberg.co.uk> writes
--
Ken
<AlexNOOOO!!!!!!!!@drzoidberg.co.uk> writes
>
>"Phil" <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:cfc34c62-3cf1-4bc9...@googlegroups.com...
>> Hello,
>>
>> This is a rather ridiculous question that should never have to be
>>asked but having heard of disabled people being prosecuted for
>>carrying a Swiss Army knife in their car (Google: Rodney Knowles) I
>>guess the next question is whether a scalpel or one-time use
>>scissors, in a first aid kit, in the car or on person while
>>travelling, is an offensive weapon?
>>
>
>There are two relevant offences, and this is pretty much a standard
>police training question.
>
>Possession of an offensive weapon - having with you in a public place
>an article made, adapted or intended for causing harm.
>
>Secondly possession of a bladed article - having with you in a public
>place without lawful excuse or good cause a bladed or pointed article.
>
>
>On the former, the hypothetical scalpel in a first aid kit would only
>become illegal if you intended to use it to cause harm - if you start
>threatening someone with it for example.
>
>On the latter, it is obviously a bladed article, but having it included
>in a first aid kit in a car boot would be a good cause (though scissors
>might be more sensible).
>
But it would be for the jury to decide.
>"Phil" <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:cfc34c62-3cf1-4bc9...@googlegroups.com...
>> Hello,
>>
>> This is a rather ridiculous question that should never have to be
>>asked but having heard of disabled people being prosecuted for
>>carrying a Swiss Army knife in their car (Google: Rodney Knowles) I
>>guess the next question is whether a scalpel or one-time use
>>scissors, in a first aid kit, in the car or on person while
>>travelling, is an offensive weapon?
>>
>
>There are two relevant offences, and this is pretty much a standard
>police training question.
>
>Possession of an offensive weapon - having with you in a public place
>an article made, adapted or intended for causing harm.
>
>Secondly possession of a bladed article - having with you in a public
>place without lawful excuse or good cause a bladed or pointed article.
>
>
>On the former, the hypothetical scalpel in a first aid kit would only
>become illegal if you intended to use it to cause harm - if you start
>threatening someone with it for example.
>
>On the latter, it is obviously a bladed article, but having it included
>in a first aid kit in a car boot would be a good cause (though scissors
>might be more sensible).
>
--
Ken
RobertL
Oct 29, 2012, 11:05:03 AM10/29/12
to
On Sunday, October 28, 2012 9:10:07 PM UTC, Ken wrote:
> I've never heard of first aid kits containing scalpels, I would have
thought that the man might have a bit of explaining to do.
Our first aid kits at work do not even have scissors in them (on HSE grounds).
> I've never heard of first aid kits containing scalpels, I would have
thought that the man might have a bit of explaining to do.
Robert
philmc...@gmail.com
Oct 29, 2012, 12:10:03 PM10/29/12
to
Has anyone had a look at template risk assessments and COSHH from the HSE?
They imply that there is always room for risk reduction improvements (by contrasting what you are doing now and what can be done in the future), so anyone having to fill out those dreadful documents are stuck in a self-tightening ratchet of HSE madness.
Nowhere in the document is a sanity check of the H&S measures vs. common sense, business interest or "acceptable risk".
If the HSE had their way we would all be working in padded offices and commuting en masse in padded buses. The irony is that lots of people will then be dying of obesity.
Message has been deleted
Clive George
Oct 29, 2012, 12:45:03 PM10/29/12
to
On 29/10/2012 16:10, philmc...@gmail.com wrote:
> If the HSE had their way we would all be working in padded offices and commuting en masse in padded buses.
That's not actually true. The HSE are pretty sensible, the problems
> If the HSE had their way we would all be working in padded offices and commuting en masse in padded buses.
happen when others interpret the rules unhelpfully.
Lordgnome
Oct 29, 2012, 12:50:02 PM10/29/12
to
> If the HSE had their way we would all be working in padded offices and
> commuting en masse in padded buses. The irony is that lots of people
> will then be dying of obesity.
Quite so. I am so glad I don't work these days - it would drive me potty!
> commuting en masse in padded buses. The irony is that lots of people
> will then be dying of obesity.
Les.
steve robinson
Oct 29, 2012, 1:45:03 PM10/29/12
to
steve robinson
Oct 29, 2012, 1:50:02 PM10/29/12
to
David Hearn wrote:
> On 29/10/2012 00:15, philmc...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, 28 October 2012 21:10:07 UTC, Ken wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I've never heard of first aid kits containing scalpels, I would
> > > have
> > >
> > > thought that the man might have a bit of explaining to do.
> >
> > I am a qualified first aider. Sometimes having a knife or scissors
> > handy in the first aid kit is the best way to remove clothing, cut
> > bandages, or perform a tracheotomy for example.
> >
> > The weight and bulk of a scalpel is negligible. Better to have it
> > and not need it, than need it and not have it....
>
> I too am a qualified first aider, and a scalpel is nothing I've ever
> seen in any official/recommended First Aid kit. And in all the years
> I've done my training, I don't recall tracheostomy ever coming up in
> the syllabus or training.
>
> I would very much imagine that someone attempting one of these (even
> a qualified first aider) who hasn't had specific training in these
> procedures would have some difficulty playing the "Good Samaritan"
> card should anything go wrong (which I'd imagine would be more likely
> with untrained surgical procedures than normal first aid procedures).
Especially if its the mother in law whos throat your cutting :)
> On 29/10/2012 00:15, philmc...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, 28 October 2012 21:10:07 UTC, Ken wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I've never heard of first aid kits containing scalpels, I would
> > > have
> > >
> > > thought that the man might have a bit of explaining to do.
> >
> > I am a qualified first aider. Sometimes having a knife or scissors
> > handy in the first aid kit is the best way to remove clothing, cut
> > bandages, or perform a tracheotomy for example.
> >
> > The weight and bulk of a scalpel is negligible. Better to have it
> > and not need it, than need it and not have it....
>
> I too am a qualified first aider, and a scalpel is nothing I've ever
> seen in any official/recommended First Aid kit. And in all the years
> I've done my training, I don't recall tracheostomy ever coming up in
> the syllabus or training.
>
> I would very much imagine that someone attempting one of these (even
> a qualified first aider) who hasn't had specific training in these
> procedures would have some difficulty playing the "Good Samaritan"
> card should anything go wrong (which I'd imagine would be more likely
> with untrained surgical procedures than normal first aid procedures).
>
> As for using a scalpel to cut clothing off - sounds rather dangerous
> to me (both for the patient, and the first aider).
>
> Scissors (dressing or clothing cutters) in a first aid kit is
> certainly something I'd expect to see though.
>
> Of course, if someone has a higher level of emergency medical
> training that a first aider (e.g. paramedic etc which might include
> emergency surgery training), then it might be different.
>
> D
Its often recomended when travelling to far off places that syringes,
> As for using a scalpel to cut clothing off - sounds rather dangerous
> to me (both for the patient, and the first aider).
>
> Scissors (dressing or clothing cutters) in a first aid kit is
> certainly something I'd expect to see though.
>
> Of course, if someone has a higher level of emergency medical
> training that a first aider (e.g. paramedic etc which might include
> emergency surgery training), then it might be different.
>
> D
scalpels , stitching equipment antibiotics and iv needles and tubing
are carried in addition to the standard first aid kit
Ian Smith
Oct 29, 2012, 2:00:05 PM10/29/12
to
On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:10:03 +0000, philmc...@gmail.com <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Has anyone had a look at template risk assessments and COSHH from
> the HSE?
>
> They imply that there is always room for risk reduction
> improvements (by contrasting what you are doing now and what can be
> done in the future), so anyone having to fill out those dreadful
> documents are stuck in a self-tightening ratchet of HSE madness.
You mean there's nothing like the statement on
>
> Has anyone had a look at template risk assessments and COSHH from
> the HSE?
>
> They imply that there is always room for risk reduction
> improvements (by contrasting what you are doing now and what can be
> done in the future), so anyone having to fill out those dreadful
> documents are stuck in a self-tightening ratchet of HSE madness.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/faq.htm#q2 which says "identify what, IF
ANY, further controls are required." (my emphasis). Do you think it
would be improved if it said explicitly "You do not need to include
insignificant risks", like it, errr, does say?
I guess it would help if some of the example templates had some rows
filled in saying "No further action", like
http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/casestudies/pdf/bettingshop.pdf does, or
maybe under 'Further action' had "None", like
http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/casestudies/pdf/butchers.pdf does.
> Nowhere in the document is a sanity check of the H&S measures vs.
> common sense, business interest or "acceptable risk".
management". They could put on it statements like "Sensible risk
management is not about creating a totally risk free society". Maybe
they could put it at http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/principlespoints.htm.
But I guess if they did all that people wouldn't be able to say things
like:
> If the HSE had their way we would all be working in padded offices
> and commuting en masse in padded buses. The irony is that lots of
> people will then be dying of obesity.
I suggest you read what HSE actually says, rather than believing what
the Daily Mail says HSE says.
regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
glut...@giganews.com
Oct 29, 2012, 2:00:06 PM10/29/12
to
a Swiss Army knife, it was a Buck Whittaker lock knife with a serrated
edge and which is illegal (presumably in a public place).
http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/Police-arrested-disabled-fruit-knife-man/story-11739409-detail/story.html
Unless you know different, in which case, how?
Nick Odell
Oct 29, 2012, 3:40:02 PM10/29/12
to
floats near the top when searching for Rodney Knowles, doesn't appear
to have thought his later conviction on child sex abuse charges worth
mentioning. At least I can't find the story in the DM with an on-line
search. Perhaps another poster will have better luck finding a link.
Nick
dochol...@gmail.com
Oct 29, 2012, 2:30:04 PM10/29/12
to
On Monday, 29 October 2012 08:55:02 UTC, David Hearn wrote:
> I too am a qualified first aider, and a scalpel is nothing I've ever seen in > any official/recommended First Aid kit.
My first aid box for use while walking contained (probably still contains but I'm not sure where it is now) some sterile scalpel blades of the smallest variety available (15 or 15A, I think). They were recommended to me as the best way to burst a blister on those occasions when it's absolutely necesary, and I certainly found they worked better for that purpose than the sewing needles other people were using.
These days there are other ways to deal with blisters...
philmc...@gmail.com
Oct 29, 2012, 2:35:02 PM10/29/12
to
But let's look at their implementation in practice.
Is it or is it not acceptable that:
1) Scissors be banned from first aid kits on HS grounds
2) Park benches being removed in West Sussex on HS grounds
3) At my previous place of work, carrying cups of beverages up stairs being banned on HS grounds
I could give an endless list but the fact of the matter is that the HS legislation is being implemented in an absurd way. Passing the buck will not make the elephant in the room go away.
Message has been deleted
Zapp Brannigan
Oct 29, 2012, 4:20:02 PM10/29/12
to
<philmc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8162d296-8550-4a71...@googlegroups.com...
> Is it or is it not acceptable that:
> 1) Scissors be banned from first aid kits on HS grounds
Clive George
Oct 29, 2012, 4:15:02 PM10/29/12
to
On 29/10/2012 18:35, philmc...@gmail.com wrote:
> We can debate the theoretical interpretation of those forms till we are blue in the face.
Not really. It's fairly obvious that the HSE rules are sensible and
> We can debate the theoretical interpretation of those forms till we are blue in the face.
allow many things people claim they don't.
> But let's look at their implementation in practice.
>
> Is it or is it not acceptable that:
> 1) Scissors be banned from first aid kits on HS grounds
> 2) Park benches being removed in West Sussex on HS grounds
> 3) At my previous place of work, carrying cups of beverages up stairs being banned on HS grounds
>
> I could give an endless list but the fact of the matter is that the HS legislation is being implemented in an absurd way. Passing the buck will not make the elephant in the room go away.
and local H+S people, so you know how to stop people doing silly things.
Eg if somebody proposes something silly and blames the HSE, if you
merely accept that you can't really do something about it. But if you
know the HSE don't actually promote silly rules, you will be in a far
better position to argue with the local people.
Periander
Oct 29, 2012, 5:55:02 PM10/29/12
to
On 29-Oct-2012, the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That being your position, it's probably best to make sure that you don't
> have any whips in your car when you go out.
--
All the best,
Periander
Alex Heney
Oct 29, 2012, 6:50:02 PM10/29/12
to
On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 18:35:02 +0000, philmc...@gmail.com wrote:
>On Monday, 29 October 2012 18:21:34 UTC, Ian Smith wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:10:03 +0000, philmc...@gmail.com <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
<snip>
>On Monday, 29 October 2012 18:21:34 UTC, Ian Smith wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:10:03 +0000, philmc...@gmail.com <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>
>We can debate the theoretical interpretation of those forms till we are blue in the face.
>
>But let's look at their implementation in practice.
>
they do what they can, by such statements as given above.
But people in positions of responsibility then want to avoid all
possibility of blame (not of risk), and cite H&S as the reason.
>Is it or is it not acceptable that:
>1) Scissors be banned from first aid kits on HS grounds
>2) Park benches being removed in West Sussex on HS grounds
>3) At my previous place of work, carrying cups of beverages up stairs being banned on HS grounds
>
legislation.
They are to do with people not understanding, and trying to cover
their own arses.
>I could give an endless list but the fact of the matter is that the HS legislation is being implemented in an absurd way. Passing the buck will not make the elephant in the room go away.
It is doing things on very tenuous grounds that have nothing to do
with the legislation which is absurd.
--
Alex Heney, Global Villager
Don't force it, use a bigger hammer.
To reply by email, my address is alexDOTheneyATgmailDOTcom
Message has been deleted
philmc...@gmail.com
Oct 29, 2012, 6:35:02 PM10/29/12
to
1) Human nature says they will try to prove their worth by pointing out hazards the previous manager "missed". These hazards may be inflated, negligible or non-existent.
2) Company management go with the recommendations of a H&S desktop Napoleon 99% of the time, because no one wants the buck to stop at their desk for overriding what H&S says.
3) A few jobs back we were in dealing with things that go bang and the H&S armchair despot forbade hot drinks in Thermos flasks out of the cafeteria area because of an imaginary scalding hazard. Explosive work tends by nature to be in remote areas, usually with high winds, little shelter, rain and freezing weather. Nothing like a good hot cuppa then, but that didn't stop it being deemed a workplace hazard by H&S...
In the end we just took the hot water from home in Thermos flasks and left them in the 4WD, instead of using the hot water dispenser at the staff cafeteria.
Ste
Oct 29, 2012, 6:45:02 PM10/29/12
to
On 29 Oct, 11:05, Steve Firth <%ste...@malloc.co.uk> wrote:
Sounds rather like a joke I once heard, which ends with the lawyer
sending a bill for his advice.
sending a bill for his advice.
Judith
Oct 29, 2012, 7:40:03 PM10/29/12
to
On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 19:05:01 +0000, Phil <philmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hello,
>
>This is a rather ridiculous question that should never have to be asked but having heard of disabled people being prosecuted for carrying a Swiss Army knife in their car (Google: Rodney Knowles) I guess the next question is whether a scalpel or one-time use scissors, in a first aid kit, in the car or on person while travelling, is an offensive weapon?
>
>Thanks.
>Phil
"Supt Meakin said in his statement: "At 11.45pm on February 23, police received
>Hello,
>
>This is a rather ridiculous question that should never have to be asked but having heard of disabled people being prosecuted for carrying a Swiss Army knife in their car (Google: Rodney Knowles) I guess the next question is whether a scalpel or one-time use scissors, in a first aid kit, in the car or on person while travelling, is an offensive weapon?
>
>Thanks.
>Phil
a report that while Mr Knowles was in the Highweek Inn he had made an alleged
threat that he was going to use a knife to harm someone."
He admitted the charge.
I suspect that if he had not made the threat, he would not even have been
charged in the first place. If he had, he could have pleaded not guilty and I
doubt if he would have been found guilty at all.
Clive George
Oct 29, 2012, 8:20:03 PM10/29/12
to
Which I do. My employer is very strong on H&S.
> you will know that:
> 1) Human nature says they will try to prove their worth by pointing
> out hazards the previous manager "missed". These hazards may be
inflated,
> negligible or non-existent.
Nope.
> 2) Company management go with the recommendations of a H&S desktop
> Napoleon 99% of the time, because no one wants the buck to stop at
> their desk for overriding what H&S says.
Nope. It helps if your H&S people are good at what they do, rather than
being shoved into the job because they were too useless everywhere else.
But that's a management failure, not an H&S failure.
> 3) A few jobs back we were in dealing with things that go bang and the
> H&S armchair despot forbade hot drinks in Thermos flasks out of the
> cafeteria area because of an imaginary scalding hazard. Explosive work
> tends by nature to be in remote areas, usually with high winds, little
> shelter, rain and freezing weather. Nothing like a good hot cuppa then,
> but that didn't stop it being deemed a workplace hazard by H&S...
So you had an idiot doing H&S. The problem there isn't H&S, it's the
idiot doing it and the idiots managing them.
I just checked our company website for rules relating to thermos flasks.
One incident where somebody got scalded from a broken one, corrective
action taken to replace the flask. Nothing else, no special rules like
your place seems to have.
It is possible to do H&S sensibly, and people should be encouraged to do
so. The current staple of complaining about "elf and safety gorn mad"
doesn't help this. Target your complaints appropriately, don't just give
up on the whole idea.
> you will know that:
> 1) Human nature says they will try to prove their worth by pointing
> out hazards the previous manager "missed". These hazards may be
inflated,
> negligible or non-existent.
> 2) Company management go with the recommendations of a H&S desktop
> Napoleon 99% of the time, because no one wants the buck to stop at
> their desk for overriding what H&S says.
being shoved into the job because they were too useless everywhere else.
But that's a management failure, not an H&S failure.
> 3) A few jobs back we were in dealing with things that go bang and the
> H&S armchair despot forbade hot drinks in Thermos flasks out of the
> cafeteria area because of an imaginary scalding hazard. Explosive work
> tends by nature to be in remote areas, usually with high winds, little
> shelter, rain and freezing weather. Nothing like a good hot cuppa then,
> but that didn't stop it being deemed a workplace hazard by H&S...
idiot doing it and the idiots managing them.
I just checked our company website for rules relating to thermos flasks.
One incident where somebody got scalded from a broken one, corrective
action taken to replace the flask. Nothing else, no special rules like
your place seems to have.
It is possible to do H&S sensibly, and people should be encouraged to do
so. The current staple of complaining about "elf and safety gorn mad"
doesn't help this. Target your complaints appropriately, don't just give
up on the whole idea.
Steve Firth
Oct 29, 2012, 8:20:02 PM10/29/12
to
Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
[snip]
> iirc, single handed operation is the legal test to distinguish between
> a flick knife and a lock knife.
There's no such distinction. Most lock knives can be operated one handed.
The key distinction is that flick knives use a spring or a flick of the
wrist to bring the blade into operation. Hence a gravity knife is, in
effect, a flick knife.
However S139 CJA 1988 makes no distinction between flick knives and lock
knives. It simply divides knives into those with blades less than 3" in
length that are folding pocketknives and those that do not fold.
A cite for your belief would be welcome.
--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/
[snip]
> iirc, single handed operation is the legal test to distinguish between
> a flick knife and a lock knife.
There's no such distinction. Most lock knives can be operated one handed.
The key distinction is that flick knives use a spring or a flick of the
wrist to bring the blade into operation. Hence a gravity knife is, in
effect, a flick knife.
However S139 CJA 1988 makes no distinction between flick knives and lock
knives. It simply divides knives into those with blades less than 3" in
length that are folding pocketknives and those that do not fold.
A cite for your belief would be welcome.
--
<•DarWin><|
_/ _/
Dr Zoidberg
Oct 30, 2012, 3:30:05 AM10/30/12
to
"Ken" <K...@dasha.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Yu7e8McV...@dasha.demon.co.uk...
--
Alex
Clive George
Oct 30, 2012, 7:00:06 AM10/30/12
to
On 29/10/2012 18:30, dochol...@gmail.com wrote:
> My first aid box for use while walking contained (probably still contains but I'm not sure where it is now) some sterile scalpel blades of the smallest variety available (15 or 15A, I think). They were recommended to me as the best way to burst a blister on those occasions when it's absolutely necesary, and I certainly found they worked better for that purpose than the sewing needles other people were using.
> These days there are other ways to deal with blisters...
What's the current thinking on this? Compeed is our weapon of choice,
> My first aid box for use while walking contained (probably still contains but I'm not sure where it is now) some sterile scalpel blades of the smallest variety available (15 or 15A, I think). They were recommended to me as the best way to burst a blister on those occasions when it's absolutely necesary, and I certainly found they worked better for that purpose than the sewing needles other people were using.
> These days there are other ways to deal with blisters...
but I'd be interested to know if there are other things I should be
considering doing.
(for bursting blisters I have used penknife scissors in the past -
leaves a bigger hole than a needle but I tend to have them with me)
The Todal
Oct 30, 2012, 7:15:04 AM10/30/12
to
heal by itself. I agree that a needle (which of course needs to be
sterilised) doesn't usually work because the skin on a blister can be
tough to penetrate and you can end up pricking the flesh beneath.
Perhaps if absolutely essential one could use a razor blade which has
been waved over a flame.
But in relation to the original question, I think it is lawful to carry
a scalpel as part of a first aid kit. If you were to carry it by itself
in your pocket when entering a club, your motives might be seen as suspect.
Andy Leighton
Oct 30, 2012, 8:40:02 AM10/30/12
to
On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 11:15:04 +0000, The Todal <deadm...@beeb.net> wrote:
> On 30/10/12 11:00, Clive George wrote:
>> On 29/10/2012 18:30, dochol...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> My first aid box for use while walking contained (probably still
>>> contains but I'm not sure where it is now) some sterile scalpel blades
>>> of the smallest variety available (15 or 15A, I think). They were
>>> recommended to me as the best way to burst a blister on those
>>> occasions when it's absolutely necesary, and I certainly found they
>>> worked better for that purpose than the sewing needles other people
>>> were using.
>>> These days there are other ways to deal with blisters...
>>
>> What's the current thinking on this? Compeed is our weapon of choice,
>> but I'd be interested to know if there are other things I should be
>> considering doing.
>>
>> (for bursting blisters I have used penknife scissors in the past -
>> leaves a bigger hole than a needle but I tend to have them with me)
>
> Standard medical advice is to avoid ever bursting a blister. Just let it
> heal by itself. I agree that a needle (which of course needs to be
> sterilised)
Does it? I will forget about the times I have used a non-sterilised
> On 30/10/12 11:00, Clive George wrote:
>> On 29/10/2012 18:30, dochol...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> My first aid box for use while walking contained (probably still
>>> contains but I'm not sure where it is now) some sterile scalpel blades
>>> of the smallest variety available (15 or 15A, I think). They were
>>> recommended to me as the best way to burst a blister on those
>>> occasions when it's absolutely necesary, and I certainly found they
>>> worked better for that purpose than the sewing needles other people
>>> were using.
>>> These days there are other ways to deal with blisters...
>>
>> What's the current thinking on this? Compeed is our weapon of choice,
>> but I'd be interested to know if there are other things I should be
>> considering doing.
>>
>> (for bursting blisters I have used penknife scissors in the past -
>> leaves a bigger hole than a needle but I tend to have them with me)
>
> Standard medical advice is to avoid ever bursting a blister. Just let it
> heal by itself. I agree that a needle (which of course needs to be
> sterilised)
needle or blade then. Also if you are running a thread through the
blister how do you ensure a sterile thread?
> But in relation to the original question, I think it is lawful to carry
> a scalpel as part of a first aid kit. If you were to carry it by itself
> in your pocket when entering a club, your motives might be seen as suspect.
that might get me in trouble in some places. I think it is all about
being sensible and only carrying a tool when you are likely to need to
use it.
--
Andy Leighton => an...@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
Ian Jackson
Oct 30, 2012, 9:05:03 AM10/30/12
to
In article <N5-dnaEapve_gRLN...@brightview.co.uk>,
committee. Then you can actually stop nonsense when it's first
brought up. The HSE website is actually very helpful for this - you
can quote things from their website, like the URLs Ian Smith provides,
and that will help you win the argument against idiocy.
I got put on the H&S committee at work because my then manager wanted
someone with a sensible approach. On the committee I helped to mostly
stop the PAT testing nonsense, avoid a totally ridiculous palaver
which was proposed over the very occasional use of a soldering iron,
and abolish some stupid paperwork relating to fire exits; but helped
chase the provision of an AED, ended up a fire warden as we were short
on volunteers in some areas of the office, and helped bully the
building management into running a fire drill at a time less
convenient to them but when more of the people are in the office.
--
Ian Jackson personal email: <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb, fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657
Clive George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>It is possible to do H&S sensibly, and people should be encouraged to do
>so. The current staple of complaining about "elf and safety gorn mad"
>doesn't help this. Target your complaints appropriately, don't just give
>up on the whole idea.
A good way to do this is to get yourself put on your local H&S
>It is possible to do H&S sensibly, and people should be encouraged to do
>so. The current staple of complaining about "elf and safety gorn mad"
>doesn't help this. Target your complaints appropriately, don't just give
>up on the whole idea.
committee. Then you can actually stop nonsense when it's first
brought up. The HSE website is actually very helpful for this - you
can quote things from their website, like the URLs Ian Smith provides,
and that will help you win the argument against idiocy.
I got put on the H&S committee at work because my then manager wanted
someone with a sensible approach. On the committee I helped to mostly
stop the PAT testing nonsense, avoid a totally ridiculous palaver
which was proposed over the very occasional use of a soldering iron,
and abolish some stupid paperwork relating to fire exits; but helped
chase the provision of an AED, ended up a fire warden as we were short
on volunteers in some areas of the office, and helped bully the
building management into running a fire drill at a time less
convenient to them but when more of the people are in the office.
--
Ian Jackson personal email: <ijac...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
PGP2 key 1024R/0x23f5addb, fingerprint 5906F687 BD03ACAD 0D8E602E FCF37657
Ian Jackson
Oct 30, 2012, 9:20:02 AM10/30/12
to
In article <slrnk8viih...@azaal.plus.com>,
| Even though it may be tempting, try not to burst a blister as it
| could lead to an infection or slow down the healing process. However,
| if it becomes very large or painful your doctor or nurse may decide
| to decompress the blister under sterile conditions.
|
| If a blister does burst, don't peel off the dead skin on top of the
| blister. Allow the fluid inside to drain, then cover the blister
| and the area around it with a dry, sterile dressing to protect it
| from infection until it heals.
Andy Leighton <an...@azaal.plus.com> wrote:
>Does it? I will forget about the times I have used a non-sterilised
>needle or blade then. Also if you are running a thread through the
>blister how do you ensure a sterile thread?
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/blisters/pages/introduction.aspx
>Does it? I will forget about the times I have used a non-sterilised
>needle or blade then. Also if you are running a thread through the
>blister how do you ensure a sterile thread?
| Even though it may be tempting, try not to burst a blister as it
| could lead to an infection or slow down the healing process. However,
| if it becomes very large or painful your doctor or nurse may decide
| to decompress the blister under sterile conditions.
|
| If a blister does burst, don't peel off the dead skin on top of the
| blister. Allow the fluid inside to drain, then cover the blister
| and the area around it with a dry, sterile dressing to protect it
| from infection until it heals.
Clive George
Oct 30, 2012, 9:20:02 AM10/30/12
to
On 30/10/2012 13:05, Ian Jackson wrote:
> I got put on the H&S committee at work because my then manager wanted
> someone with a sensible approach. On the committee I helped to mostly
> stop the PAT testing nonsense, avoid a totally ridiculous palaver
> which was proposed over the very occasional use of a soldering iron,
> and abolish some stupid paperwork relating to fire exits; but helped
> chase the provision of an AED, ended up a fire warden as we were short
> on volunteers in some areas of the office, and helped bully the
> building management into running a fire drill at a time less
> convenient to them but when more of the people are in the office.
Wossan AED?
> I got put on the H&S committee at work because my then manager wanted
> someone with a sensible approach. On the committee I helped to mostly
> stop the PAT testing nonsense, avoid a totally ridiculous palaver
> which was proposed over the very occasional use of a soldering iron,
> and abolish some stupid paperwork relating to fire exits; but helped
> chase the provision of an AED, ended up a fire warden as we were short
> on volunteers in some areas of the office, and helped bully the
> building management into running a fire drill at a time less
> convenient to them but when more of the people are in the office.
(I'm guessing not related to an IED :-) )
Martin Bonner
Oct 30, 2012, 9:25:05 AM10/30/12
to
On Monday, October 29, 2012 6:35:02 PM UTC, philmc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, 29 October 2012 18:21:34 UTC, Ian Smith wrote:
> > I suggest you read what HSE actually says, rather than believing what
> > the Daily Mail says HSE says.
>
>
> On Monday, 29 October 2012 18:21:34 UTC, Ian Smith wrote:
> > I suggest you read what HSE actually says, rather than believing what
> > the Daily Mail says HSE says.
>
>
> We can debate the theoretical interpretation of those forms till
> we are blue in the face.
>
> But let's look at their implementation in practice.
>
> Is it or is it not acceptable that:
> 1) Scissors be banned from first aid kits on HS grounds
> 2) Park benches being removed in West Sussex on HS grounds
> 3) At my previous place of work, carrying cups of beverages up
> stairs being banned on HS grounds
>
> I could give an endless list but the fact of the matter is that
> the HS legislation is being implemented in an absurd way.
> Passing the buck will not make the elephant in the room go away.
I don't think anyone would argue that some petty bureaucrats are
> we are blue in the face.
>
> But let's look at their implementation in practice.
>
> Is it or is it not acceptable that:
> 1) Scissors be banned from first aid kits on HS grounds
> 2) Park benches being removed in West Sussex on HS grounds
> 3) At my previous place of work, carrying cups of beverages up
> stairs being banned on HS grounds
>
> I could give an endless list but the fact of the matter is that
> the HS legislation is being implemented in an absurd way.
> Passing the buck will not make the elephant in the room go away.
not being ridiculous in their implementation of HS legislation.
The main problem is that the legislation requires them to *think*
rather than just follow rules - they find that hard. However, can
we please avoid throwing the baby out with the bath water. I
heard a spirited defence of H&S some years ago on Midweek from a
director of a major construction company (Balfour Beatty or
similar). He pointed out that there are two types of H&S headline:
"stupid restriction" and "people dead"; he preferred the former.
Even as recently as the construction of the Channel Tunnel
('87-'93) it was considered acceptable for ten people to die.
Today that just isn't an option.
HSE is part of the solution, not part of the problem.
Sara
Oct 30, 2012, 9:40:02 AM10/30/12
to
> I would agree. I've never carried a scalpel, I have carried knives
> that might get me in trouble in some places. I think it is all about
> being sensible and only carrying a tool when you are likely to need to
> use it.
My Swiss Army jobbie lives in my handbag. I've no idea when I may want
> that might get me in trouble in some places. I think it is all about
> being sensible and only carrying a tool when you are likely to need to
> use it.
to use it.
--
Sara
cats cats cats cats cats
Ken
Oct 30, 2012, 9:40:10 AM10/30/12
to
In article <af9r58...@mid.individual.net>, The Todal
<deadm...@beeb.net> writes
A blister is when the two layers of skin become unglued and the space
fills up with pus or lymph.
I'm not clear whether you are discussing a traumatic injury such as
hitting one's thumb with a hammer, or whether you are discussing a
repetitive sort of injury caused by walking or whatever.
In the second case, and let's suppose a person is going on a walking
holiday in the Alps, and on the first day out there they develop a
blister, its not immediately intuitive, that to continue their holiday
in a painless sort of way the best thing to do is not to burst the
blister.
If, however, that person does decide to burst the blister, assuming that
they don't have some sort of irregularity such as a bunion, I'm not
quite sure why it should be difficult to burst with any pointed object
(eg safety pin).
--
Ken
<deadm...@beeb.net> writes
fills up with pus or lymph.
I'm not clear whether you are discussing a traumatic injury such as
hitting one's thumb with a hammer, or whether you are discussing a
repetitive sort of injury caused by walking or whatever.
In the second case, and let's suppose a person is going on a walking
holiday in the Alps, and on the first day out there they develop a
blister, its not immediately intuitive, that to continue their holiday
in a painless sort of way the best thing to do is not to burst the
blister.
If, however, that person does decide to burst the blister, assuming that
they don't have some sort of irregularity such as a bunion, I'm not
quite sure why it should be difficult to burst with any pointed object
(eg safety pin).
--
Ken
Ian Jackson
Oct 30, 2012, 9:45:03 AM10/30/12
to
In article <GdOdnQJWiZEnThLN...@brightview.co.uk>,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_external_defibrillator
A gadget that even when wielded by an untrained layperson can
significantly improve likely outcomes from a heart attack.
| AEDs are designed to be used by laypersons who ideally should have
| received AED training.
These are starting to become quite common - even found on the newest
trains, for example.
A gadget that even when wielded by an untrained layperson can
significantly improve likely outcomes from a heart attack.
| AEDs are designed to be used by laypersons who ideally should have
| received AED training.
These are starting to become quite common - even found on the newest
trains, for example.
The Todal
Oct 30, 2012, 9:55:03 AM10/30/12
to
On 30/10/12 13:45, Ian Jackson wrote:
> In article <GdOdnQJWiZEnThLN...@brightview.co.uk>,
> Clive George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 30/10/2012 13:05, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>> I got put on the H&S committee at work because my then manager wanted
>>> someone with a sensible approach. On the committee I helped to mostly
>>> stop the PAT testing nonsense, avoid a totally ridiculous palaver
>>> which was proposed over the very occasional use of a soldering iron,
>>> and abolish some stupid paperwork relating to fire exits; but helped
>>> chase the provision of an AED, ended up a fire warden as we were short
>>> on volunteers in some areas of the office, and helped bully the
>>> building management into running a fire drill at a time less
>>> convenient to them but when more of the people are in the office.
>>
>> Wossan AED?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_external_defibrillator
>
> A gadget that even when wielded by an untrained layperson can
> significantly improve likely outcomes from a heart attack.
>
> | AEDs are designed to be used by laypersons who ideally should have
> | received AED training.
>
> These are starting to become quite common - even found on the newest
> trains, for example.
>
Available on Amazon. I was wondering whether to buy one. You never know
> In article <GdOdnQJWiZEnThLN...@brightview.co.uk>,
> Clive George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 30/10/2012 13:05, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>> I got put on the H&S committee at work because my then manager wanted
>>> someone with a sensible approach. On the committee I helped to mostly
>>> stop the PAT testing nonsense, avoid a totally ridiculous palaver
>>> which was proposed over the very occasional use of a soldering iron,
>>> and abolish some stupid paperwork relating to fire exits; but helped
>>> chase the provision of an AED, ended up a fire warden as we were short
>>> on volunteers in some areas of the office, and helped bully the
>>> building management into running a fire drill at a time less
>>> convenient to them but when more of the people are in the office.
>>
>> Wossan AED?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_external_defibrillator
>
> A gadget that even when wielded by an untrained layperson can
> significantly improve likely outcomes from a heart attack.
>
> | AEDs are designed to be used by laypersons who ideally should have
> | received AED training.
>
> These are starting to become quite common - even found on the newest
> trains, for example.
>
when a visitor, family member or neighbour could collapse with a heart
attack or abnormal heart rhythm. The devices only cost about a thousand
quid. The price of being, perhaps, the hero of the hour.
But how often do they actually save a patient's life? Less than fifty
percent of the time? Still, worth a try.
dochol...@gmail.com
Oct 30, 2012, 10:10:03 AM10/30/12
to
On Tuesday, 30 October 2012 13:40:46 UTC, Ken wrote:
> A blister is when the two layers of skin become unglued and the space fills
> up with pus or lymph. I'm not clear whether you are discussing a traumatic
> injury such as hitting one's thumb with a hammer, or whether you are
> discussing a repetitive sort of injury caused by walking or whatever. In the
> second case, and let's suppose a person is going on a walking holiday in the
> Alps, and on the first day out there they develop a blister, its not
> immediately intuitive, that to continue their holiday in a painless sort of
> way the best thing to do is not to burst the blister. If, however, that
> person does decide to burst the blister, assuming that they don't have some
> sort of irregularity such as a bunion, I'm not quite sure why it should be
> difficult to burst with any pointed object (eg safety pin).
I was actually given the advice by a vet, and I think the comment was that the hole left by a needle was often less than totally effective in draining the blister. What I did find was that a sterile new blade was considerably sharper than the average needle, let alone safety pin, and the reduction in force required made it easier not to cut anywhere you didn't want to.
> A blister is when the two layers of skin become unglued and the space fills
> up with pus or lymph. I'm not clear whether you are discussing a traumatic
> injury such as hitting one's thumb with a hammer, or whether you are
> discussing a repetitive sort of injury caused by walking or whatever. In the
> second case, and let's suppose a person is going on a walking holiday in the
> Alps, and on the first day out there they develop a blister, its not
> immediately intuitive, that to continue their holiday in a painless sort of
> way the best thing to do is not to burst the blister. If, however, that
> person does decide to burst the blister, assuming that they don't have some
> sort of irregularity such as a bunion, I'm not quite sure why it should be
> difficult to burst with any pointed object (eg safety pin).
These days I would normally use a compeed or similar, but I think at the time the choice (if you were continuing your walk) tended to be between busting the blister yourself in a reasonably controlled manner or having it burst at some time along the walk while in contact with your sock...
R. Mark Clayton
Oct 30, 2012, 10:15:02 AM10/30/12
to
news:fxHv77Zn...@dasha.demon.co.uk...
> In article <L-OdneumFastDhDN...@brightview.co.uk>, Clive
> George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>>and locking blade appear to be the important differences to most swiss
>>army knives.
>>
>>(I do wonder if their Rescue model is legal in the UK - locking serrated
>>blade.)
>
> If the police arrested the man and the case went to court the question the
> jury would have to decide on would be whether the man had good reason or
> lawful authority.
Well except you may not get a jury trial...
>
> I've never heard of first aid kits containing scalpels, I would have
> thought that the man might have a bit of explaining to do.
>
> I can't see what being disabled has got to do with it. The man was
> prosecuted, was he convicted?
>
> --
> Ken
> In article <L-OdneumFastDhDN...@brightview.co.uk>, Clive
> George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> writes
>>On 28/10/2012 19:05, Phil wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> This is a rather ridiculous question that should never have to be asked
>>> but having heard of disabled people being prosecuted for carrying a
>>> Swiss Army knife in their car (Google: Rodney Knowles) I guess the next
>>> question is whether a scalpel or one-time use scissors, in a first aid
>>> kit, in the car or on person while travelling, is an offensive weapon?
>>
>>The Rodney Knowles case wasn't about a Swiss Army knife. The serrated edge
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> This is a rather ridiculous question that should never have to be asked
>>> but having heard of disabled people being prosecuted for carrying a
>>> Swiss Army knife in their car (Google: Rodney Knowles) I guess the next
>>> question is whether a scalpel or one-time use scissors, in a first aid
>>> kit, in the car or on person while travelling, is an offensive weapon?
>>
>>and locking blade appear to be the important differences to most swiss
>>army knives.
>>
>>(I do wonder if their Rescue model is legal in the UK - locking serrated
>>blade.)
>
> If the police arrested the man and the case went to court the question the
> jury would have to decide on would be whether the man had good reason or
> lawful authority.
Well except you may not get a jury trial...
>
> I've never heard of first aid kits containing scalpels, I would have
> thought that the man might have a bit of explaining to do.
>
> I can't see what being disabled has got to do with it. The man was
> prosecuted, was he convicted?
>
> --
> Ken
Man at B&Q
Oct 30, 2012, 11:30:03 AM10/30/12
to
On Oct 30, 11:00 am, Clive George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
(inc. socks) is the current thinking.
For me, an inner pair of everyday cotton socks and an outer pair of
woolen "walking socks" in correctly fitted boots.
MBQ
> On 29/10/2012 18:30, dochollida...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > My first aid box for use while walking contained (probably still contains but I'm not sure where it is now) some sterile scalpel blades of the smallest variety available (15 or 15A, I think). They were recommended to me as the best way to burst a blister on those occasions when it's absolutely necesary, and I certainly found they worked better for that purpose than the sewing needles other people were using.
> > These days there are other ways to deal with blisters...
>
> What's the current thinking on this?
I haven't had a blister from walking in ages. COrrect fitting footwear
>
> > My first aid box for use while walking contained (probably still contains but I'm not sure where it is now) some sterile scalpel blades of the smallest variety available (15 or 15A, I think). They were recommended to me as the best way to burst a blister on those occasions when it's absolutely necesary, and I certainly found they worked better for that purpose than the sewing needles other people were using.
> > These days there are other ways to deal with blisters...
>
> What's the current thinking on this?
(inc. socks) is the current thinking.
For me, an inner pair of everyday cotton socks and an outer pair of
woolen "walking socks" in correctly fitted boots.
MBQ
Man at B&Q
Oct 30, 2012, 11:30:03 AM10/30/12
to
On Oct 29, 10:35 pm, philmcbrid...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, 29 October 2012 20:15:02 UTC, Clive George wrote:
> On Monday, 29 October 2012 20:15:02 UTC, Clive George wrote:
> > On 29/10/2012 18:35, philmcbrid...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > We can debate the theoretical interpretation of those forms till we are blue in the face.
>
> > Not really. It's fairly obvious that the HSE rules are sensible and
>
> > allow many things people claim they don't.
>
> > > But let's look at their implementation in practice.
>
> > > Is it or is it not acceptable that:
>
> > > 1) Scissors be banned from first aid kits on HS grounds
>
> > > 2) Park benches being removed in West Sussex on HS grounds
>
> > > 3) At my previous place of work, carrying cups of beverages up stairs being banned on HS grounds
>
> > > I could give an endless list but the fact of the matter is that the HS legislation is being implemented in an absurd way. Passing the buck will not make the elephant in the room go away.
>
> > That's not the HSE. It's important to know the difference between them
>
> > and local H+S people, so you know how to stop people doing silly things.
>
> > Eg if somebody proposes something silly and blames the HSE, if you
>
> > merely accept that you can't really do something about it. But if you
>
> > know the HSE don't actually promote silly rules, you will be in a far
>
> > better position to argue with the local people.
>
> If you have any experience dealing with H&S types you will know that:
> 1) Human nature says they will try to prove their worth by pointing out hazards the previous manager "missed". These hazards may be inflated, negligible or non-existent.
> 2) Company management go with the recommendations of a H&S desktop Napoleon 99% of the time, because no one wants the buck to stop at their desk for overriding what H&S says.
> 3) A few jobs back we were in dealing with things that go bang and the H&S armchair despot forbade hot drinks in Thermos flasks out of the cafeteria area because of an imaginary scalding hazard. Explosive work tends by nature to be in remote areas, usually with high winds, little shelter, rain and freezing weather. Nothing like a good hot cuppa then, but that didn't stop it being deemed a workplace hazard by H&S...
Not by any legislation. Not by the HSE.
>
> > > We can debate the theoretical interpretation of those forms till we are blue in the face.
>
> > Not really. It's fairly obvious that the HSE rules are sensible and
>
> > allow many things people claim they don't.
>
> > > But let's look at their implementation in practice.
>
> > > Is it or is it not acceptable that:
>
> > > 1) Scissors be banned from first aid kits on HS grounds
>
> > > 2) Park benches being removed in West Sussex on HS grounds
>
> > > 3) At my previous place of work, carrying cups of beverages up stairs being banned on HS grounds
>
> > > I could give an endless list but the fact of the matter is that the HS legislation is being implemented in an absurd way. Passing the buck will not make the elephant in the room go away.
>
> > That's not the HSE. It's important to know the difference between them
>
> > and local H+S people, so you know how to stop people doing silly things.
>
> > Eg if somebody proposes something silly and blames the HSE, if you
>
> > merely accept that you can't really do something about it. But if you
>
> > know the HSE don't actually promote silly rules, you will be in a far
>
> > better position to argue with the local people.
>
> If you have any experience dealing with H&S types you will know that:
> 1) Human nature says they will try to prove their worth by pointing out hazards the previous manager "missed". These hazards may be inflated, negligible or non-existent.
> 2) Company management go with the recommendations of a H&S desktop Napoleon 99% of the time, because no one wants the buck to stop at their desk for overriding what H&S says.
> 3) A few jobs back we were in dealing with things that go bang and the H&S armchair despot forbade hot drinks in Thermos flasks out of the cafeteria area because of an imaginary scalding hazard. Explosive work tends by nature to be in remote areas, usually with high winds, little shelter, rain and freezing weather. Nothing like a good hot cuppa then, but that didn't stop it being deemed a workplace hazard by H&S...
MBQ
Man at B&Q
Oct 30, 2012, 11:25:02 AM10/30/12
to
On Oct 29, 6:35 pm, philmcbrid...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, 29 October 2012 18:21:34 UTC, Ian Smith wrote:
> > On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:10:03 +0000, philmcbrid...@gmail.com <philmcbrid...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 29 October 2012 18:21:34 UTC, Ian Smith wrote:
>
> > > Has anyone had a look at template risk assessments and COSHH from
>
> > > the HSE?
>
> > > They imply that there is always room for risk reduction
>
> > > improvements (by contrasting what you are doing now and what can be
>
> > > done in the future), so anyone having to fill out those dreadful
>
> > > documents are stuck in a self-tightening ratchet of HSE madness.
>
> > You mean there's nothing like the statement on
>
> >http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/faq.htm#q2which says "identify what, IF
>
> > ANY, further controls are required." (my emphasis). Do you think it
>
> > would be improved if it said explicitly "You do not need to include
>
> > insignificant risks", like it, errr, does say?
>
> > I guess it would help if some of the example templates had some rows
>
> > filled in saying "No further action", like
>
> >http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/casestudies/pdf/bettingshop.pdfdoes, or
>
> > maybe under 'Further action' had "None", like
>
> >http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/casestudies/pdf/butchers.pdfdoes.
>
> > > Nowhere in the document is a sanity check of the H&S measures vs.
>
> > > common sense, business interest or "acceptable risk".
>
> > Perhaps they need a page titled "Principles of sensible risk
>
> > management". They could put on it statements like "Sensible risk
>
> > management is not about creating a totally risk free society". Maybe
>
> > they could put it athttp://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/principlespoints.htm.
>
> > But I guess if they did all that people wouldn't be able to say things
>
> > like:
>
> > > If the HSE had their way we would all be working in padded offices
>
> > > and commuting en masse in padded buses. The irony is that lots of
>
> > > people will then be dying of obesity.
>
> > Would they?
>
> > I suggest you read what HSE actually says, rather than believing what
>
> > the Daily Mail says HSE says.
>
> > regards, Ian SMith
> > I suggest you read what HSE actually says, rather than believing what
>
> > the Daily Mail says HSE says.
>
>
> > --
>
> > |\ /| no .sig
>
> > |o o|
>
> > |/ \|
>
> We can debate the theoretical interpretation of those forms till we are blue in the face.
>
> We can debate the theoretical interpretation of those forms till we are blue in the face.
>
> But let's look at their implementation in practice.
>
> Is it or is it not acceptable that:
> 1) Scissors be banned from first aid kits on HS grounds
> 2) Park benches being removed in West Sussex on HS grounds
> 3) At my previous place of work, carrying cups of beverages up stairs being banned on HS grounds
s/HS grounds/spurious HS grounds/
>
> Is it or is it not acceptable that:
> 1) Scissors be banned from first aid kits on HS grounds
> 2) Park benches being removed in West Sussex on HS grounds
> 3) At my previous place of work, carrying cups of beverages up stairs being banned on HS grounds
Just because some council or other jobsworth claims "H&S" doesn't mean
it is in fact a H&S issue.
> I could give an endless list but the fact of the matter is that the HS legislation is being implemented in an absurd way. Passing the buck will not make the elephant in the room go away.
sensible.
MBQ
Clive George
Oct 30, 2012, 11:50:01 AM10/30/12
to
get wet). More importantly I don't walk alone, and others may not be so
lucky with boot choice - "correctly fitted" isn't necessarily as easy as
it sounds.
Compeed is doing a pretty good job IME, though there have been a couple
of problems. A friend used one and took off a large chunk of skin with
it at the end of a soggy walk. Theoretically I'm not supposed to use
them, though I suspect that's more about people using them for normal
life, not big walks. And if you've ever tried to buy them in the US,
land where everything is big, IME you'll discover they only sell tiny
ones :-)
Ken
Oct 30, 2012, 12:50:09 PM10/30/12
to
In article <zZidnTKDL5OPfRLN...@bt.com>, R. Mark Clayton
<nospam...@btinternet.com> writes
I won't claim to know what the rules are and perhaps you could kindly
clarify.
I was actually a juror myself on a case where a man was charged with
being in a public place with a knife (actually a fantasy sword) without
--
Ken
<nospam...@btinternet.com> writes
clarify.
I was actually a juror myself on a case where a man was charged with
being in a public place with a knife (actually a fantasy sword) without
good reason or lawful authority.
So, I assumed that crown court was where they all went.
--
Ken
Clive George
Oct 30, 2012, 1:15:02 PM10/30/12
to
On 30/10/2012 16:50, Ken wrote:
> I was actually a juror myself on a case where a man was charged with
> being in a public place with a knife (actually a fantasy sword) without
> good reason or lawful authority.
>
> So, I assumed that crown court was where they all went.
The case mentioned at the start of this thread (Rodney Knowles) was at a
> I was actually a juror myself on a case where a man was charged with
> being in a public place with a knife (actually a fantasy sword) without
> good reason or lawful authority.
>
> So, I assumed that crown court was where they all went.
magistrate's court.
Ian Smith
Oct 30, 2012, 3:00:03 PM10/30/12
to
On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 00:20:02 +0000, Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote:
>
> However S139 CJA 1988 makes no distinction between flick knives and
> lock knives. It simply divides knives into those with blades less
> than 3" in length that are folding pocketknives and those that do
> not fold.
Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959 however does impose extra
>
> However S139 CJA 1988 makes no distinction between flick knives and
> lock knives. It simply divides knives into those with blades less
> than 3" in length that are folding pocketknives and those that do
> not fold.
restrictions on flick knives and gravity knives which are defined and
in a manner that includes lock knives.
Ian Smith
Oct 30, 2012, 3:10:01 PM10/30/12
to
On Tue, 30 Oct 2012 13:55:03 +0000, The Todal <deadm...@beeb.net> wrote:
> On 30/10/12 13:45, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > In article <GdOdnQJWiZEnThLN...@brightview.co.uk>,
> > Clive George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> Wossan AED?
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_external_defibrillator
> >
> > A gadget that even when wielded by an untrained layperson can
> > significantly improve likely outcomes from a heart attack.
>
> On 30/10/12 13:45, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > In article <GdOdnQJWiZEnThLN...@brightview.co.uk>,
> > Clive George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> Wossan AED?
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_external_defibrillator
> >
> > A gadget that even when wielded by an untrained layperson can
> > significantly improve likely outcomes from a heart attack.
>
> Available on Amazon. I was wondering whether to buy one. You never
> know when a visitor, family member or neighbour could collapse with
> a heart attack or abnormal heart rhythm. The devices only cost
> about a thousand quid. The price of being, perhaps, the hero of the
> hour.
>
> But how often do they actually save a patient's life? Less than
> fifty percent of the time? Still, worth a try.
There's lots of emotional stuff (what if you decide not to and someone
> know when a visitor, family member or neighbour could collapse with
> a heart attack or abnormal heart rhythm. The devices only cost
> about a thousand quid. The price of being, perhaps, the hero of the
> hour.
>
> But how often do they actually save a patient's life? Less than
> fifty percent of the time? Still, worth a try.
dies ... what if it's your life you save ... how much do you think a
life is worth anyway), but the consensus regarding workplace
deployments seems to boil down to if you have thousands of people, and
especially if they are doing something that might exacerbate risk (eg
sports) then you probably should have one. There is an increasing
likelihood that such places do have them, and that will lead to an
increasing expectation that such places will have one.
However, if you have a hundred people (or fewer), and they are
'normally fit' working-age demographic doing office-type tasks then
risk probably does not count as significant and very few such places
have AED, and it (currently) would be exceeding normal good practice
to provide one.
The manufacturers say coy things like 'success rates as high as 75%
have been reported', but it seems like realistically the presence of
an AED in the building turns an 8% chance of surviving a cardiac
arrest into something like a 30% chance of surviving.
Initial costs about £1000. Budget for about £60 pa running costs
(consumables every two years, new battery every four years).
There are schemes to put AEDs into community locations, but you'd
need to be lucky - if it's (say) five minutes away you've used up most
of the advantage of early defibrillation by the time someone has gone
and got it.
Ken
Oct 31, 2012, 4:20:02 AM10/31/12
to
In article <QNadnRNWu5inlw3N...@brightview.co.uk>, Clive
George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> writes
But the man pleaded guilty didn't he? Would the magistrates have tried
the case had he pleaded not guilty.
If they would, what is the criterion that decides where the man is
charged.
--
Ken
George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> writes
the case had he pleaded not guilty.
If they would, what is the criterion that decides where the man is
charged.
--
Ken
Adam Funk
Nov 1, 2012, 8:35:03 AM11/1/12
to
On 2012-10-29, Steve Firth wrote:
> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 28/10/2012 22:35, Periander wrote:
>>
>>> Strange that the Daily Mail should champion a serial violent child sex
>>> offender. They usually want them hanged drawn and quartered. A man who
>>> regularly offended whilst on bail stating "no regulation by a magistrate is
>>> going to stop me". (For mod purposes see the links in my initial post).
>>> Colour me old fashioned but when I see reporting like that I could easily be
>>> persuaded that the reporters and editors responsible should be regularly
>>> publicly flogged.
>>
>> That being your position, it's probably best to make sure that you don't
>> have any whips in your car when you go out.
>
> Well quite. There's a serious danger they may turn nasty and start using
> words like "pleb".
Good one!
> the Omrud <usenet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 28/10/2012 22:35, Periander wrote:
>>
>>> Strange that the Daily Mail should champion a serial violent child sex
>>> offender. They usually want them hanged drawn and quartered. A man who
>>> regularly offended whilst on bail stating "no regulation by a magistrate is
>>> going to stop me". (For mod purposes see the links in my initial post).
>>> Colour me old fashioned but when I see reporting like that I could easily be
>>> persuaded that the reporters and editors responsible should be regularly
>>> publicly flogged.
>>
>> That being your position, it's probably best to make sure that you don't
>> have any whips in your car when you go out.
>
> Well quite. There's a serious danger they may turn nasty and start using
> words like "pleb".
Good one!
Adam Funk
Nov 1, 2012, 8:35:10 AM11/1/12
to
On 2012-10-29, Sara wrote:
> *It's amazing how many people ask you over for a drink/meal and then
> just mention in passing that they've got a problem with their computer
> and would you mind having a quick look ;-)
"Why it's better to pretend you don't know anything about computers."
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/computers
(Sorry, no legal content.)
> *It's amazing how many people ask you over for a drink/meal and then
> just mention in passing that they've got a problem with their computer
> and would you mind having a quick look ;-)
"Why it's better to pretend you don't know anything about computers."
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/computers
(Sorry, no legal content.)
Adam Funk
Nov 1, 2012, 8:50:02 AM11/1/12
to
On 2012-10-29, Dr Zoidberg wrote:
>
> "D.M. Procida" <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote in
> message
> news:1kspzub.1irp66d9tls3uN%real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk...
>> Dr Zoidberg <AlexNOOOO!!!!!!!!@drzoidberg.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> For bladed articles, there is an exemption for a folding pocket knife
>>> with a
>>> blade less than three inches long. A standard sized swiss army knife has
>>> a
>>> 2.75" folding blade. The larger sized ones are over three inches and have
>>> a
>>> locking knife so are not included in the exemption. If you have one of
>>> those
>>> with you while going camping - fine. If you have one with you while going
>>> to
>>> the pub - not fine.
>>
>> If you want to get on the Eurostar at St Pancras with your Opinel (with
>> a locking blade) they will confiscate it.
>>
>> I presume it's up to them what articles you carry onto the train, so the
>> law doesn't actually matter, even if you're going camping with it...
>>
> Exactly.
> My swiss army knife is perfectly legal to carry, but I wouldn't expect to be
> allowed through a security check at most venues with it so if I'm going to
> see a band I'll leave it at home.
I haven't had any trouble with a "normal size" Swiss Army knife on
Eurostar.
>
> "D.M. Procida" <real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk> wrote in
> message
> news:1kspzub.1irp66d9tls3uN%real-not-anti...@apple-juice.co.uk...
>> Dr Zoidberg <AlexNOOOO!!!!!!!!@drzoidberg.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> For bladed articles, there is an exemption for a folding pocket knife
>>> with a
>>> blade less than three inches long. A standard sized swiss army knife has
>>> a
>>> 2.75" folding blade. The larger sized ones are over three inches and have
>>> a
>>> locking knife so are not included in the exemption. If you have one of
>>> those
>>> with you while going camping - fine. If you have one with you while going
>>> to
>>> the pub - not fine.
>>
>> If you want to get on the Eurostar at St Pancras with your Opinel (with
>> a locking blade) they will confiscate it.
>>
>> I presume it's up to them what articles you carry onto the train, so the
>> law doesn't actually matter, even if you're going camping with it...
>>
> Exactly.
> My swiss army knife is perfectly legal to carry, but I wouldn't expect to be
> allowed through a security check at most venues with it so if I'm going to
> see a band I'll leave it at home.
I haven't had any trouble with a "normal size" Swiss Army knife on
Eurostar.
The Todal
Nov 1, 2012, 9:00:11 AM11/1/12
to
On 29/10/12 10:55, Steve Firth wrote:
> Sara <sarame...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> [snip]
> mutually commiserated on the party experience of revealing one's profession
> then getting collared for free advice. After a couple of minutes he said
> .... "Actually we have this problem with our PCs at work."
>
It is possible, perhaps, that he was merely trying to make conversation,
if the conversation was beginning to flag.
I don't mind being asked advice, since I never feel embarrassed to say
that it isn't my field or I don't know enough about that particular topic.
I have, however, frequently grovelled under desks and tables, removed
the sides of computers, vacuumed away the lumps of dust, inserted or
re-seated the RAM, downloaded and installed driver files, etc. In once
case I discovered that the reason why the monitor was displaying no
picture was not a motherboard or video card fault but a fault in an
inexpensive adapter socket. I always find it personally gratifying to
solve a friend's computer problem. However I'm never sure what I would
do if as a result of my actions the problem became much worse (eg if a
very fragile component in the computer was damaged) and I had to decide
whether it was up to me to fix it at my own expense.
> Sara <sarame...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> [snip]
>
>> *It's amazing how many people ask you over for a drink/meal and then
>> just mention in passing that they've got a problem with their computer
>> and would you mind having a quick look ;-)
>
> I was at a party a few years ago. I was introduced to a solicitor. We
>> *It's amazing how many people ask you over for a drink/meal and then
>> just mention in passing that they've got a problem with their computer
>> and would you mind having a quick look ;-)
>
> mutually commiserated on the party experience of revealing one's profession
> then getting collared for free advice. After a couple of minutes he said
> .... "Actually we have this problem with our PCs at work."
>
It is possible, perhaps, that he was merely trying to make conversation,
if the conversation was beginning to flag.
I don't mind being asked advice, since I never feel embarrassed to say
that it isn't my field or I don't know enough about that particular topic.
I have, however, frequently grovelled under desks and tables, removed
the sides of computers, vacuumed away the lumps of dust, inserted or
re-seated the RAM, downloaded and installed driver files, etc. In once
case I discovered that the reason why the monitor was displaying no
picture was not a motherboard or video card fault but a fault in an
inexpensive adapter socket. I always find it personally gratifying to
solve a friend's computer problem. However I'm never sure what I would
do if as a result of my actions the problem became much worse (eg if a
very fragile component in the computer was damaged) and I had to decide
whether it was up to me to fix it at my own expense.
Sara
Nov 2, 2012, 3:40:02 AM11/2/12
to
In article <be6am9x...@news.ducksburg.com>,
Oh so true, so true :(
--
Billy doesn't clean his paws often enough. Mucky cat.
--
Billy doesn't clean his paws often enough. Mucky cat.
the Omrud
Nov 4, 2012, 5:35:02 PM11/4/12
to
On 29/10/2012 09:35, Sara wrote:
> Moving slightly away from the purely legal here, I just wanted to say I
> always carry a Swiss Army knife. It's the Victorinox CyberTool34 which I
> was given as a gift many years ago. As well as all the usual tools it
> has a set of screwdrivers which I've taken loads of computers apart
> with*. I've also opened loads of bottles of beer, tins of beans when we
> bought out motor-home and forgot a can-opener, as well as vacuum packed
> cheeses which you can then slive, etc.
>
> The only time I've ever had a problem carrying it around was boarding an
> internal flight when I'd forgotten to take it out of my handbag. Luckily
> I had time to run around and buy a padded envelope and stamps and find a
> post-box to post it to myself so it was waiting for me when I got home.
>
> Over the years I've lost a few of the screw-driver heads, I really must
> get some more.
That would appear to fall under the exemptions in that it has folding
blades of less than 3" which don't lock. I've had to stop carrying my
Leatherman Wave because the blades do lock. I've put an old Leatherman
original Tool in the car - the blades don't lock so it is very much less
safe to use as they can fold back on your fingers if you're not very
careful.
> *It's amazing how many people ask you over for a drink/meal and then
> just mention in passing that they've got a problem with their computer
> and would you mind having a quick look ;-)
I was once a programmer, and I now design and build global-scale IT
enterprise solutions with users counted in the hundreds of thousands. I
explain, while fixing the person's PC, that I know how to do it because
I'm a nerd, not because of my job.
--
David
> Moving slightly away from the purely legal here, I just wanted to say I
> always carry a Swiss Army knife. It's the Victorinox CyberTool34 which I
> was given as a gift many years ago. As well as all the usual tools it
> has a set of screwdrivers which I've taken loads of computers apart
> with*. I've also opened loads of bottles of beer, tins of beans when we
> bought out motor-home and forgot a can-opener, as well as vacuum packed
> cheeses which you can then slive, etc.
>
> The only time I've ever had a problem carrying it around was boarding an
> internal flight when I'd forgotten to take it out of my handbag. Luckily
> I had time to run around and buy a padded envelope and stamps and find a
> post-box to post it to myself so it was waiting for me when I got home.
>
> Over the years I've lost a few of the screw-driver heads, I really must
> get some more.
That would appear to fall under the exemptions in that it has folding
blades of less than 3" which don't lock. I've had to stop carrying my
Leatherman Wave because the blades do lock. I've put an old Leatherman
original Tool in the car - the blades don't lock so it is very much less
safe to use as they can fold back on your fingers if you're not very
careful.
> *It's amazing how many people ask you over for a drink/meal and then
> just mention in passing that they've got a problem with their computer
> and would you mind having a quick look ;-)
enterprise solutions with users counted in the hundreds of thousands. I
explain, while fixing the person's PC, that I know how to do it because
I'm a nerd, not because of my job.
--
David
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